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March 17, 2007

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sferris

Personal attacks on Toensing shows the left is worried? Give me a break. Listening to Hannity rave about her testimony last night was enough to make me puke. If want to dispute Plane's status get someone who is more unimpeachable then Toensing. If Republicans are so certain of her status why haven't they called Hayden, or anyone for that matter that has first-hand knowledge, rather than a political hack like Toensing.

PeterUK

"I know I'm dense on this. Didn't the Libby trial establish that there were at least two independent leakers of Val's name/employer?"

The Libby trial was for perjury and obstruction,Fitzgerald already knew who had leaked Plames name,before the trial.

Other Tom

"Why this other term - serve?"

Who knows? That's why, as I said in drawing on basic stuff from law school, that no court would convict Libby under the IIPA under the facts adduced thus far. And I take great comfort in the fact that an aggressive prosecutor didn't even ask a court to do so when he had the chance. Make of it what you will...

Other Tom

"Listening to Hannity rave about her testimony last night was enough to make me puke. If want [sic] to dispute Plane's status get someone who is more unimpeachable then Toensing. If Republicans are so certain of her status why haven't they called Hayden, or anyone for that matter that has first-hand knowledge, rather than a political hack like Toensing."

Glad to hear about your puking. As for Plame's status, how many times must it be explained to you that we are content to leave it right where it is: there is a federal criminal statute concerning that status, and a prosecutor charged with investigating it and with prosecuting anyone who acted criminally in disclosing it, concluded that no crime should be charged. Please direct your criticism to Mr. Fitzgerald, not to us wingnuts who are content to gloat over your evident frustration. We'll play these.

PeterUK

If the left are not worried about Ms Toensing,why has she suddenly become a hate figure of the left? She only wrote the statute after all.
What are you afraid of,because believe me the fear coming from the left is palpable,all the comments attacking her,the standard left reaction when the shit starts oozing out of their pores,can you feel it?
Sorry of course you can,you are sitting in it.

p.lukasiak

Why do you think people are covert dumbass?
They are nearly always being asked to do something that is illegal in the country they are in.

that is ridiculous. For instance, if Valerie Plame met a source on Iraq's WMD's at a conference in Rome, why would that be illegal in Italy?

Your hearty endorsement of their indictment, while 'kidnapping' terrorists speaks volumes about your loyalties doesn't it?

well, that's just it. The victim in this case was not a "terrorist". The victim was kidnapped in a case of mistaken identity. According to the Times piece "U.S. officials have told German authorities that Masri was seized and imprisoned in error because his name is similar to that of a suspected terrorist linked to Al Qaeda."

So we're not talking about spiriting away actual terrorists here -- we're talking about kidnapping innocent people (and torturing them). Now, if that happened to you, or someone close to you, I suspect that you would want some kind of justice.

But the fact that you ASSUME that the victim was a terrorist speaks volumes about your unwillingness to check the facts before making accusations about people's loyalties....

Jeff

And I take great comfort in the fact that an aggressive prosecutor didn't even ask a court to do so when he had the chance.

As a lawyer friend of mine commented upon Libby's indictment, another one of those conventions and norms with federal prosecutors is that they have much more latitude in choosing the slam-dunk charges to go after.

p.lukasiak

there is a federal criminal statute concerning that status, and a prosecutor charged with investigating it and with prosecuting anyone who acted criminally in disclosing it, concluded that no crime should be charged. Please direct your criticism to Mr. Fitzgerald, not to us wingnuts who are content to gloat over your evident frustration. We'll play these.

maybe if Scooter Libby hadn't lied under oath about what he knew about Valerie Plame and when he knew it, such a prosecution could have taken place. That's why they call it "obstruction of justice", remember?

verner

"If Republicans are so certain of her status why haven't they called Hayden, or anyone for that matter that has first-hand knowledge, rather than a political hack like Toensing."

The proof that this is a stupid thing to say: Davis asked point blank about the IIPA, Waxman avoided mentioning it at all, and relied on the ambiguous "descriptive" verb "Covert" that means absolutely nothing in the "legal" sense. Davis also said, that the appropriate place for these so called "show trial" hearings was the intelligence committee, where Hayden could be interrogated about the CIA's policies and practices. Now that the democrats are in power in congress, do you think that's going to happen? I don't.

Hayden is obviously trying to protect the "agency", not the Bush administration. He also needs to watch his back with the vipers in his employ.

bio mom

Just read on NRO that Joe and Val had dinner last week with Senator Hillary Clinton and Sidney Blumenthal. We report, you decide. I know what I think. "President Clinton II" plans on using him and her in her administration and in her attacks to get elected. In my gut, I do not think there will be a President Clinton II.

Looking_for_a_way_out

"The Libby trial was for perjury and obstruction,Fitzgerald already knew who had leaked Plames name,before the trial."

I'm not sure if I should respond to this since it didn't answer my question. IIRC Fitzgerald did establish that both Armitage and Libby blown Val's cover to different reporters. When Libby leaked to Miller, was he aware that Armitage had leaked to Woodward and Novak?

If Libby

PeterUK

"that is ridiculous. For instance, if Valerie Plame met a source on Iraq's WMD's at a conference in Rome, why would that be illegal in Italy?"

If three men allegedly flew planes carrying a German passport holder,against that person's will,why would that be an offence in the US if it was not on American soil.
Stop making up fairy stories Plurch and stick to the case in hand.

PeterUK

It wasn't all of the answer was it "lookingat"

So now I agree with this,

"I know I'm dense on this.",Yes very.

Rick Ballard

"IIRC Fitzgerald did establish that both Armitage and Libby blown Val's cover to different reporters."

No, Fitzgerald established that the CIA didn't give a damn about Val via Grenier and the fact that Harlow spouted like a whale at the first opportunity given.

Val was a "negative" factor to the CIA and was tossed like used TP (analogy rougly equivalent to her true value).

p.lukasiak

What is important about the ghost pilots, and what is deserving of outrage, is that the CIA officer who came forward and alerted the world to their alleged wrongdoing, and ultimately to information exposing them to violence at the hands of anyone who wishes to do them harm, ignored the law altogether in placing them at very serious risk. The provisions of an existing federal statute would have allowed her to proceed lawfully to have their conduct examined and, if it were deemed unlawful, either discontinued or punished, or both. What Ms. McCarthy did is infinitely more despicable--though probably neither more nor less unlawful--than anything done by Rove, Libby, or even the worm Armitage.

first of all, I hate to break it to you, but Masri knew he'd been kidnapped -- he didn't need McCarthy to leak that information (and AFAIK, she never mentioned Masri).

Secondly, insofar as McCarthy worked in the CIA's Inspector General's office, I suspect that she leaked because the "provisions of existing federal statutes" were being ignored --- if the inspector general's office is aware that the CIA is involved in kidnapping people, sending them to foreign prisons, and having them tortured, and it isn't taking action, "whistle-blowing" is really the only alternative she had left.

I mean THIS is the administration that DENIED security clearances to the inspectors who were supposed to determine if the Justice Department acted legally with its warrantless wiretap program, and the administration where the Vice President's chief of staff has just been convicted of obstruction of justice in an investigation of the disclosure of a covert CIA agent. So lets get real about whether this administration actually polices itself....

jerry

I'm still suspiscious that Toensing is resolutely defending confidential advice she gave, perhaps indirectly, to the WH/OVP in 2003 regarding the IIPA -- after all being the self-identified sole global IIPA authority and a massive Republican true believer who else would they turn to?

The WH/OVP then acted on her advice re:Plame. but the advice may have been in error - outdated or interpreted differently by the CIA... because you just can't go around quizzing agencies about how their present interpretation of IIPA protections right before going off to circumvent the law.

So I'd be interested in questioning Toensing to look for evidence of a WH plan to release Plame's info... can a lawyer be compelled to reveal advice given to a client, albeit indirectly?

p.lukasiak

If three men allegedly flew planes carrying a German passport holder,against that person's will,why would that be an offence in the US if it was not on American soil.

they aren't being charged with a crime by US courts. The charges are filed in Germany, where the kidnapping took place.

That being said, insofar as the victim was flown out of Germany, the kidnapping becomes a matter of international law and treaties pursuant to those laws that probably do make them criminally liable in the United States. (of course, they will never be tried, because proving the case would involve disclosure of too many national security secrets.)

sferris

I am not at all frustrated with Fitzgerald. Procecutors bring cases they can win, it doesn't mean there wasn't underlying crime. The fact that Libby wasn't convicted under the IIPA doesn't diminsh his crime. My queston, which hasn't been answered, is why hasn't anyone with first-hand knowledge not been called to dispute Plame's status? Toensing isn't impartial expert wittenss by any stretch. I would venture she is on the donor list for the Libby Defense Fund. Has anyone asked her?

hit and run

Listening to Hannity rave about her testimony last night was enough to make me puke.


A few things I don't understand.
1) Liberals watching Hannity or listening to Rush when doing so is enough to make them puke.
2) Conservatives doing the same with Hardball or kos.
3) Blog commenters engaging in long series of rants back and forth.
4) Why I find Ariel from the Little Mermaid so hot. She's a frickin cartoon.

Looking_for_a_way_out

PeterUK

I'll try this again for you. My recollection of the Libby trial is that two different leakers were identified, Armitage and Libby. Armitage leaked to Novak and Woodward. Libby leaked to Miller then Ari.

You have said that Fitzgerald knew who the leaker was. Okay, was that leaker Armitage, Libby, or Both?

If Libby's involvement was independent of Armitage's it is significant, if only to me. I apologize to you if this is something you've covered long ago. Just tell me how Armitage's leaks were tied to Libby's leak to Miller.

boris

Fitzgerald did establish that both Armitage and Libby blown Val's cover to different reporters

For one thing Armitage leaked from a classified document, the INR memo.

Libby was alleged to have told Miller in a conversation neither one can recall. Miller's reconstructed recollections from her cryptic notes seem rather conveniently specific to the subject she spent 3 months in jail for.

In any case the infomation Libby supposedly told her came from Harlow, Schmall and Grenier who balbbed that Wilson's CIA wife sent him to Niger. Now, if you believe Valerie's testimony, she had nothing to do with the mission and she was classified covert. So WTF are CIA officials doing blabbing her around town? If classified information was disclosed by mistake who done it?

CIA.

There was no reason for Libby to assume there was any reason to avoid discussing the role CIA officials said she played.

Barney Frank

p. luk,

--that is ridiculous--

It is not ridiculous. It is true that not everything covert agents do is illegal, that's why the statement contained a qualifier. But they are routinely asked to perform illegal acts, it's called espionage.
If for instance in your theoretical, Plame met a source on Iraq WMD's in Italy who provided her with documents she knew to be forgeries concerning Niger's uranium activities it would conceivably be illegal. I'm not saying that occurred but since you brought up the theoretical......

I find your blind acceptance of the 'kidnapee's' claims of torture to be once again quite revealing. I am aware that he was mistakenly taken. However many others were not; they were terrorists. I am perfectly willing to accept the occasional mistake beng made in the conduct of a war. For instance the bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade. Did you call for that pilot to be indicted? After all people actually died. I didn't think so.
I also to some extent understand the German authorities squawking. What I do not countenance is Americans delighting in our people being indicted while they are attempting to protect us.

BTW I note you have not provided us with the evidence or any citations as to what classified information anyone, with the possible exception of Armitage, leaked.
Keep looking though.

Looking_for_a_way_out

Thank you Boris.

PeterUK

Looking,Look it up,the information is there for you as well as everyone else.

Rick Ballard

"Why I find Ariel from the Little Mermaid so hot."

What bourbon sourced font did that arise from? Man, don't you realize that the onanistic group outpouring of the delusional have primacy above all else?

How dare you, sir?

The fate of the Republic hangs in the balance and your focus is upon other than leftist delusion. It is their hope that you suffer interminable pain for your abject response to those who deeply feel CheChe's daughter's pain.

Tell us - you have voted for a Republican candidate, haven't you?

Your appearance on this forum is an expiation of the guilt which you dare not confesss, isn't it?

Confess all and be absolved in the blinding light of Progressive Thought and brother - Ye Shall Be Judged Innocent.

hubel458

Her job as a behind the desk WMD analyst,
that she said she was, would be considered
a 'huge failure' for her and the CIA, in that they didn't find the Saddam/Libya nuke program that was getting yellowcake from Cogema/Niger. But then thank God
Libya came to us and UN and gave it up.
After Saddam captured, they chickened out.
BUT JOE'S COMPANY CONSULTING TO COGEMA
AND NIGER...MIGHT...EXPLAIN...WHY!!!
Keywords- Coverup- Traitors. Ed

PeterUK

"So I'd be interested in questioning Toensing to look for evidence of a WH plan to release Plame's info."

You,Jerry would like to question,Victoria Toensing? HA HA HA Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha.....

hit and run

boris:
Libby was alleged to have told Miller in a conversation neither one can recall.

And convicted for perjury because he said he had a conversation with Russert about Plame and Russert said he didn't.

And Libby also told the GJ that he talked to Kessler about Plame, and Kessler said he didn't.

And no one Libby talked to about Plame wrote a story about her.

I think McHitlerburton sold Libby down the river because of sheer leaking incompetence.

Looking_for_a_way_out

"So WTF are CIA officials doing blabbing her around town?"

Wasn't Libby the one pushing his CIA contacts to get story behind the Wilson trip? Somebody was dragged out of a meeting to answer his questions on it iIrc. Who else were they "blabbing" to? The INR?

hit and run

Rick:
What bourbon sourced font did that arise from?

Ah, she was on one of my daughter's books. I sat there for a few minutes, captivated.

Oh and it's tequila this weekend. Waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much tequila.

--Tell us - you have voted for a Republican candidate, haven't you?

Yes. Bush '04. First time I ever voted in fact.

sferris

I happened to catch Toensing on the TV being interviewed by Hannity. I also happen to read blogs on both sides to get different perspectives. To be honest, I have no idea why anyone would listen to Hannity or Limbaugh. They're both college dropouts without any expertise in any area as far as I can tell. Have I missed anything?

Rick Ballard

"I think McHitlerburton sold Libby down the river because of sheer leaking incompetence."

Nope. He was sold because WH /= OVP.

Pure and simple. Bartlett's assclown Martin could not contain a robust response. Libby paid.

It's just war at the peak and somebody has to take the sword.

Look at the Bartlett/Martin response to anything you can put a name to (excluding the '04 re-election) and tell me I'm wrong.

PeterUK

"Wasn't Libby the one pushing his CIA contacts to get story behind the Wilson trip?"

Well,when somebody write an op-ed for the New York Times using information gained under the auspices of a government agency who claims your department,"behested",one might have ones curiosity peeked.

"Somebody was dragged out of a meeting to answer his questions on it iIrc."

Yes God forbid,a bureaucrat gets dragged out of one of those incessant interminable meetings.

"Who else were they "blabbing" to? The INR?"
Who was blabbing to whom?

PeterUK

"Have I missed anything?"

yes,cferris,your CV.

Looking_for_a_way_out

"Well,when somebody write an op-ed for the New York Times using information gained under the auspices of a government agency who claims your department,"behested",one might have ones curiosity peeked."

One might have one's curiosity piqued.

sferris

CV: MS EECS. Comments on Atrios are a lot more fun to read. Snarky, but very funny. Typepad is junk - it's hard to believe were still using this junk.

Other Tom

Lukusiak: "[M]aybe if Scooter Libby hadn't lied under oath about what he knew about Valerie Plame and when he knew it, such a prosecution could have taken place."

Really? Please specify a lie on Libby's part that precluded a prosecution under the IIPA. As far as the exhaustive record of the trial is concerned, Libby lied neither about what he knew nor when he knew it. All of his lies concerned sources, and in fact he acknowledged that his initial source was Cheney. He was, indeed, not legally competent to give testimony that would have allowed Fitzgerald to bring Plame within the provisions of the IIPA. That testimony would have had to come from Plame herself, or from the agency. No such testimony was forthcoming.

You are grasping more and more desperately at straws now, and your argument crumbles before our delighted eyes. We're having much more fun than you are with this one.

And you really need to bone up on the difference between "insofar" and "inasmuch." When your argument is a failing one, clumsy language only makes you look worse.

PeterUK

Yes I know Looky,but I just fire and forget them,don't even edit.
But since you understood,you have your answer.

windansea

Just tell me how Armitage's leaks were tied to Libby's leak to Miller.

why? Libby had nothing to do with Plames name being published in Novaks column

Armitage blabbing to Novak is what caused the outing

I've heard that you are pathetic troll who still believes Microsoft word time traveled back to a Texas Guard typewriter

sue me :)

sbw

"curiosity peeked."

"One might have one's curiosity piqued."

No. Peeked -- looked at. ;-)

PeterUK

Well sferris,it doesn't seem to have worked,perhaps you are better off staying at atrios.

SunnyDay

Well they must be riled about something - th etrolls are using more bandwidth here than the regulars.

Ralph L.

One thing about the IIPA I find a little odd: How does the CIA take affirmative measures to protect the identity of covert agents that it normally does not acknowledge exist?

H&R: "Bush '04. First time I ever voted in fact"
And how old are you?

PeterUK

SunnyDay,
Exactly,something has flushed somewhere to send this lot down the pipe.

Syl

(still catching up)

p.luk

the law cannot be interpreted to mean something that is obviously absurd. Given the INTENT of the IIPA -- protecting the identities of undercover intelligence assets and their sources -- and the nature of intelligence collection, this "had to be stationed or reside overseas" definition of "serve overseas" is patently absurd.

This is the CIA's view. It is a valid view to hold, but it is only the CIA's view.

Congress thinks otherwise. The press thinks otherwise. We do not have an Official Secrets Act we have the First Amendment. So there is a compromise in the IIPA which is a stricter definition of exactly which covert agents it is illegal to expose.

Looking_for_a_way_out

Windnsea,

According to Miller, Libby told her about Wilson's wife in June. Now, whether or not she published, that does qualify as a leak of classified information regarding a covert CIA agent (Hayden's words not mine). When Libby did that, had Armitage leaked to Novak and Woodward? Did Libby know Armitgage had leaked?

hit and run

RalphL:
And how old are you?

Old enough to have kids ages 5 and 3, and to have been married for 13 years.

boris

Wasn't Libby the one pushing his CIA contacts to get story behind the Wilson trip?

that does qualify as a leak of classified information regarding a covert CIA agent

Once Harlow, Schmall and Grenier have disclosed that Wilson's CIA wife sent him to Niger the leak has already occured. Bacause according to Val (1) she didn't send him and (2) she was classified covert.

The CIA made Valerie part of the story by mistake or otherwise. Also Miller indicates she already knew about Valerie anyway.

So no. Libby did not "leak classified" information to Miller even if he did speak about her. Considering that charges based on Miller were dropped, that part of the trial hardly constitutes "establishing" anything concrete.

Sara (Squiggler)

I have a really basic question. I knew the answer to this once, but now I cannot recall which is which.

Clandestine vs. Covert?

One means working under official cover, such as those working within an Embassy, etc.

One means working without official cover and, if caught, they will be denied by the government.

Which is which? And which did Val fall under?

I am not going to besmirch Val or her record of service with the CIA pre-1998. Her troubles seem to begin when she either fell under Joe Wilson's influence or when he fell under her influence and she used him and made the potentially fatal mistake of trusting him.

Common sense, if nothing else, tells me that no one in his or her right mind would send an "operative" back to NOC status who had already been "outed" in the Ames scandal. Common sense says that no one would send someone back to NOC status straight from therapy for a mental disorder. Common sense says no new mother of twins would take such a risk as going to a foreign country as a NOC, knowing that her government would deny her existence if caught.

But, then I have not seen much common sense being exercised since this who faux scandal broke.

Sara (Squiggler)

who = whole

clarice feldman

I think the reason that the moonbats have such a hard time grasping this, is that it requires you hold on to several thoughts at the same time--Andy McCarthy reminds us of some more:
"As I wrote here nearly two years ago, this is not my claim. It is the contention made in a 2005 brief to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the DC Circuit by the Times along with ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, AP, Newsweek, Reuters America, the Washington Post, the Tribune Company (which publishes the Los Angeles Times and the Baltimore Sun, among other papers), and the White House Correspondents (the organization which represents the White House press corps in its dealings with the executive branch). The mainstream media made the contention in an attempt to quash subpoenas issued to journalists — the argument being that if Mrs. Wilson's cover had already been blown, there could have been no crime when an administration official (who we now know to be Richard Armitage, not Scooter Libby) leaked her identity to journalist Robert Novak, and thus there was no need to compel reporters to reveal their sources.

Amazing how, when its own interests are at stake, the media manages to be very forceful in reporting relevant facts. But now, when those facts are even more relevant because Mrs. Wilson and congressional Democrats are bloviating about ruined intelligence networks and threatened lives, the media won't mention them. How can it be possible that a leak in 2002 "jeopardized and even destroyed entire networks of foreign agents" associated with Mrs. Wilson's covert assignment when, by the media's own account to a federal court, those networks had to have been blown for years?

It's very much worth reading this insightful post at Haft of the Spear from intelligence expert Michael Tanji. As he points out, the real, untold story in this farce is the shoddy spycraft of the CIA. Foreign intelligence professionals well know that, for an American, non-official cover overseas is easy to pierce, especially in places where proliferation (Mrs. Wilson's specialty) is a major issue. As Tanji observes:


When a public records search — something anyone with a credit card can do — reveals affiliation with one of those laughable "cover" organizations, all the linguistic dancing in the world isn't going to help you if confronted about your non-governmental status. Any half-curious foreign intelligence service could have figured this out and probably did, which means Ms. Plame really needs to answer only one question of merit [from Rep. Waxman's Committee], though I doubt it will be asked [Tanji's right — it wasn't]: "Given the ease with which any of your targets could have determined or at least suspected your affiliation with the US government, is it not reasonable to assume that some or all of the intelligence information you obtained while working under the Brewster-Jennings cover was false or misleading?"

NRO The Corner

Looking_for_a_way_out

Boris,

Only the July 12th, Miller discussion was "dropped", not the June.

So we have established, that if in fact Libby gave Miller information on Wilson's wife in June, it was independent of Armitage's leaks. Nobody is arguing that, anyway.

verner

I am not going to besmirch Val or her record of service with the CIA pre-1998.

Yeah Sara, and Benidict Arnold was once an American hero, and like a son to George Washington....

boris

Only the July 12th, Miller discussion was "dropped", not the June.

All Miller related charges were dropped.

So we have established, that if in fact Libby gave Miller information on Wilson's wife in June

Reconstructed recollections from cryptic notes specific only to a subject for which Miller spent 3 months in jail do not establish anything.

If Miller already knew and CIA officials "mistakenly" disclosed a Valerie role in the story of Joe's mission then any possible discussion between Libby and Miller of that role is not a "leak of classified" information.

clarice feldman

One supposes Looking that if the govt didn't recognize that her testimony about the June 23 meeting was so ridiculously incredible, it would have found some way to winkle out some criminal charge respecting it.

verner

"Given the ease with which any of your targets could have determined or at least suspected your affiliation with the US government, is it not reasonable to assume that some or all of the intelligence information you obtained while working under the Brewster-Jennings cover was false or misleading?"

And now we know one of the multitude of reasons that Val and her group had not a clue about A Q Kahn's network.

And thanks to the media's brief:

As I wrote here nearly two years ago, this is not my claim. It is the contention made in a 2005 brief to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the DC Circuit by the Times along with ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, AP, Newsweek, Reuters America, the Washington Post, the Tribune Company (which publishes the Los Angeles Times and the Baltimore Sun, among other papers), and the White House Correspondents (the organization which represents the White House press corps in its dealings with the executive branch).

We know why the Washington Post called Wilson a blowhard and fabricator.

By the way, anybody contacted Hugh Sydey, et. al to see what they thing about Val's "Georgetown Cocktail Circuit" comment?

verner

"If Miller already knew and CIA officials "mistakenly" disclosed a Valerie role in the story of Joe's mission then any possible discussion between Libby and Miller of that role is not a "leak of classified" information."

And even more important, let's remember that Miller made a deal not to discuss any other sources. I still believe that she brought Plame up to Libby, and not the other way around.

A big clue--WINPAC in her notes. As Jeralyn Merit wrote, the ONLY people saying that were the Wilsons and the VIPS. And now we know for sure that Foley was telling Clarice the truth. He didn't know who the hell she was.

Sara (Squiggler)

I am not going to besmirch Val or her record of service with the CIA pre-1998.

Yeah Sara, and Benidict Arnold was once an American hero, and like a son to George Washington....

Posted by: verner | March 17, 2007 at 02:48 PM

Perhaps I should have added:

...pre 1998 because I don't have a clue what that service was outside the "official" bio.

PeterUK

Clarice,
Brewster Jennings would have worked on hotel staff,airlines and odd people who Val met in the bar,it would not have fooled anyone in the business.Genuine businesses would have run a check on it as would ant clandestine operation,a simple credit rating would have revealed a somewhat insignificant company,enough to ring bells.

jerry

"You,Jerry would like to question,Victoria Toensing? HA HA HA Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha....."

Well, speaking theoretically of course... I've already said Toensing gives me shivers like the Soul Eaters in Harry Potter. She also reminds me of a terrifying aunt of mine who I grew up to realize was a big fraud, maybe that's where the shivers originate.

No, I'd like someone with authority to question her under oath.

clarice feldman

I'd like the village trolls to be smarter--but there you go.....

Ralph L.

"Old enough to have kids ages 5 and 3, and to have been married for 13 years."

My 48 y.o. brother has a 6 year old and 19 years of marriage. It took him even longer to figure out how.

But why weren't you voting against the Big Creep? Put off by Dole's shoe polish hairdo?

Sara (Squiggler)

Does anyone remember when that CIA plane crashed and was a big deal during the Contra squabbles? The pilot was captured. At that time, the cargo company was traced back to a Florida company and it took less than a news cycle for it to be revealed as a CIA front company. I don't recall many of the details, but it blew wide open the whole CIA drug running claims and Contra drug dealing to pay for arms which led to arms for hostages and Iran-Contra.

When I first read about Brewster Jennings, I had the feeling I'd heard the name before in some clandestine context. I have yet to recall where, perhaps in a Tom Clancy novel or something.

PeterUK

Clarice,
If politics are going to be ruled by infant psycopathies and children's books,I guess that explain the sad state the world is in.Is this really 2007? I don't like her she is a soul eater,'kin hell!

Charlie (Colorado)

4) Why I find Ariel from the Little Mermaid so hot. She's a frickin cartoon.

And clearly a mouth-breeder.

Charlie (Colorado)

Old enough to have kids ages 5 and 3, and to have been married for 13 years.

Are you from Kentucky?

Ralph L.

"When I first read about Brewster Jennings, I had the feeling I'd heard the name before in some clandestine context. I have yet to recall where, perhaps in a Tom Clancy novel or something."
I've had the same feeling. But we have a local Jennings Bryan Ins. Co., so I may be mixed up. CIA probably picks names for their plausibility and almost familiarity.

Charlie (Colorado)

No, I'd like someone with authority to question her under oath.

Okay, yeah, that does pretty much eliminate you.

Charlie (Colorado)

Ralph, I can only speak with real authority about the time during which I was NOC'ed, but I can say that real cover organizations with which I have experience are way more complicated and thorough than Brewster Jennings was.

On the other hand, based on the same experience, any explanation based on utter incompetence at CIA can never be discounted.

boris

Here's a simple analogy based on USAF experience as a crypto tech.

Suppose there is a secret document to be transmitted in code. Some fool transmits the document in clear text by mistake. That document is no longer secret. Other people receiving the document in clear text know that it can not be a secret document and discuss it openly.

Who is to blame?

The fool who transmits the document in clear text by mistake. In this case those fools are Harlor, Schmall, and Grenier. This assumes that Valerie employment was actually classified information to begin with, which is unlikely.

PeterUK

B.Brewster Jennings Socony Mobil Oil Company,a bit like using Paul Getty Associates for your front company.

jerry

"I'd like the village trolls to be smarter--but there you go....."

Clarice, what's she got to hide? It would be fun, I'd get my suspiscions addressed and she could try to turn all discussion toward her superior understanding of the IIPA, what a thrill for all involved.

"If politics are going to be ruled by infant psycopathies and children's books,I guess that explain the sad state the world is in.Is this really 2007? I don't like her she is a soul eater,'kin hell!"

Peter, you're older than I am, hasn't the idea of infant psychopathologies ruling the world been widely accepted for quite a while now (someone will probably tell me this was Shakespeare's secret)?

I'll also point out that there's a good variety of childish insults thrown in all directions here on JOM.

Ralph L.

Boris, that's true, except that a classified document should have security caveats which should also have been transmitted. In that case the fault lies with the receiver for disseminating known classified material. Obviously, the WH did not get any caveats with Valerie's employment information, so the whole outing thing is a crock, and has been from day 1.

jerry

"Okay, yeah, that does pretty much eliminate you."

Agreed.

boris

except that a classified document should have security caveats

The infomation that went through crypto (Nam era) did not routinely contain security caveats. By analogy the security caveat was the encryption itself. If the channel was not a secure channel, the information was no longer considered classified.

Sara (Squiggler)

[Cross-posted because I posted in the wrong thread.]

Bob Novak wrote of his conversation with then CIA spokesperson Bill Harlow:

“Harlow said to the Post that he did not tell me Mrs. Wilson “was undercover because that was classified.” What he did say was, as I reported in a previous column, “she probably never again would be given a foreign assignment but that exposure of her name might cause ‘difficulties.’” According to CIA sources, she was brought home from foreign assignments in 1997, when Agency officials feared she had been “outed” by the traitor Aldrich Ames.

Bob Novak wrote of his conversation with then CIA spokesperson Bill Harlow:

“Harlow said to the Post that he did not tell me Mrs. Wilson “was undercover because that was classified.” What he did say was, as I reported in a previous column, “she probably never again would be given a foreign assignment but that exposure of her name might cause ‘difficulties.’” According to CIA sources, she was brought home from foreign assignments in 1997, when Agency officials feared she had been “outed” by the traitor Aldrich Ames.

I have previously said that I never would have written those sentences if Bill Harlow, then CIA Director George Tenet or anybody else from the Agency had told me that Valerie Plame Wilson’s disclosure would endanger herself or anybody.”

Ralph L.

Boris, things have changed, at least in the Washington desk jockey DoD.

Sara (Squiggler)

Yikes, and I don't even drink. Sorry.

PeterUK

I'd get my suspiscions addressed and she could try to turn all discussion toward her superior understanding of the IIPA, what a thrill for all involved.

She wrote the IIPA you dummy,so what do you want to talk about,the etiquette of Soul Eating,"Do you use a knife and fork or a spoon","Is it fattening?","Will it affect my spots"? "Is it habit forming"?

Sara (Squiggler)

When And Why Joseph C Wilson IV Outed Valerie Plame

boris

things have changed

If documents transmitted in clear text can still be considered "secret" then they sure have.

That would explain a lot of incompetence.

Such pretensions are dangerous.

Syl

looking

There were people in the CIA that knew the WMD claims re: Iraq, were bogus

That's impossible.

verner

Charlie (Co.) While I've got you here--

You're thoughts on Val saying that she was trained to know if she was being tailed, thus she was safe in her "cover" even though she drove to Langely every day--

Excuse me, but why would she assume that someone would be tailing her specifically. Is it silly to assume that the Russians, for example, know about every vehicle that drives into the parking lot? I would imagine that they have satelites monitoring the place 24/7. I would think that the very last place the agency would want a NOC to show up would be Langely.

Other Tom

What happened to the oaf Lukasiak? It appears that he has abandoned the field. Not surprising, given the way things were going.

sferris

Trolls, trolls, trolls. Were happy. Hearings have been great. We're waiting for Alberto. Incompetence and lying haver consequences. Who's up next?

verner

Other T, I think we should start giving the trolls an application and an aptitude test before they're allowed to post.

He was definately one of those hate America seminar trolls--and when he had to think off the script, well...

PeterUK

Verner,
The CIA was penetrated years ago by other intelligence services,double agents,fellow travelers,agents of conscience,the bribeable and the plain stupid.The same goes for all the other intelligence agencies in the world,always has been always will be.

Patton

Let's look at this in a different way, suppose Joe and Val were NOT married.

But Joe was a small business man and Val was a covert agent that was tied to Joe's business as a consultant.

Val approaches Joe and asks him to go on a mission for the CIA. Val then attends a dinner with Joe and a reporter who Joe is dishing the details on his CIA mission.

Then Joe publishes a Op-Ed in the NYT naming himself as a CIA source. A simple Google search of Joe's business shows Valerie Plame is a consultant, in fact the only consultant to his business.

PeterUK

"Who's up next?"

Al Qaeda,some policies,Social Security,Zimbabwe,anything from the real world,take your pick.

TMF

HEarings have accomplished nothing. Literally nothing.

No indictments. No firings. No resignations. No law suits.

Nothing.

To the left, that qualifies as "great"

Proving my point that the minds of leftists are full of nothing

TMF

The democrats are truly pathetic

They run a campaign against the war, come into power, and what do they do?

Hearings. Some nosejob bleach blonde twit testifying.

The war continues. The surge is on. The Democrats have accomplished nothing in the real world.

No balls. None whatsoever. And the leftists are "proud" of them Sad, tired, empty and pathetic

PeterUK

TME
What do you expect from the Prosecution Party? They can't even get their act together on Iraq,it's like watching the Weimar Republic go down the tubes.

verner

FYI:

Three suicide bombers driving trucks rigged with tanks of toxic chlorine gas struck targets in heavily Sunni Anbar province including the office of a Sunni tribal leader opposed to al-Qaida. The attacks killed at least two people and sickened 350 Iraqi civilians and six U.S. troops, the U.S. military said Saturday.

There is a mounting power struggle between insurgents and the growing number of Sunnis who oppose them in Anbar, the center of the Sunni insurgency, which stretches from Baghdad to the borders with Syria, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. The Anbar assaults came three days after Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, a Shiite, traveled there to reach out to Sunni clan chiefs in a bid to undermine tribal support for the insurgency.

Notice--Al Qada against the sunni.

Now how does this fit into the democrats pathetic little "Civil War" meme? I agree, not very well.

And when one of those chlorine "dirty bombs" goes off in a major "American" city, guess the left will say it was Bush's fault, just like 911.

SunnyDay

As most of the news reports said - we learned nothing from the hearings.

macranger stated in plain Emglish that he thinks Waxperson lied about Hayden. Mac states he called to verify, and could not get any verification.

Could we help him follow up on this? Is there any way to press for an answer? Cause I don't believe that Hayden got himself involved in this either...somebody said that somebody said that Hayden said...

Spartacvs

And when one of those chlorine "dirty bombs" goes off in a major "American" city, guess the left will say it was Bush's fault

Undoubtedly, since Iraq was not a known center of terrorist activity before the US imposed regime change and subsequent occupation.

Spartacvs

macranger stated in plain Emglish that he thinks Waxperson lied about Hayden. Mac states he called to verify, and could not get any verification.

Yes, the silence from Hayden is deafening isn't it?

Think of it as a clue.

PeterUK

Verner,
That will all stop when the troops pull out,the happy smiling,kite flying Iraqis will join hands and sing - until the Iranian and Syrian tanks cross the border.That won't matter of course because the Dramacrats told you so,they will then appoint a Special Prosecutor to investigate Bush's mishandling of the war,Hearings will go on until the end of time.

TMF

The hearing (Waxoff in particular) scrupulously avoided going off message

Unfortunately for the lying democrats, the "message" (i.e.,: there was a specific, premeditated conspiracy by the WH to out Plame in a smear campaign effort against her husband)is a fiction.

A lie. A fraud.

Hence the lack of any reference to Armitage in Waxoffs speech. And pLAMEs rant, implicating rove, libby, and everyone except for the guy who was the actual source of Novcaks article

They are pathologically incapable of presenting the truth to the American people.

And the MSM just regurgitates the talking points. "WHite House OUting of a Covert CIA Agent" etc..

TMF

By the way, whether she was "covert" under the Act or not is totally irrelevant

FItz would have to show that Libby, Armitage and Rove had "actual knowledge" of her covert status to convict

Impossible to do, of course, in light of the fact that no one, including pLAME herself, knew if she was covert per the statute.

Hence, no Fitzmas.

But do continue, sparticrap. Continue the covert vs. non covert nonsense.

Itll get you far.

PeterUK

"Yes, the silence from Hayden is deafening isn't it?"

Hayden isn't a gobby politician,he's a soldier,despite Wesley Hat Swapper,such men do not jibber to the press.Also they are not used to being shafted by the likes of Waxy.

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Wilson/Plame