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March 25, 2007

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capitano

Yeah, yeah but what we really want to know is are the TAPPED sheep nervous?

BarbaraS

Poor put upon little girl. Softly and shyly saying "I like Hillary" and being jumped on and out shouted by the nasty men. Tsk. Tsk.

The original picture the dems have presented as far as the women in the dem partytells a different story and they are largely depected by members of NEA. And one of them would not speak softly but scream out "I think Hillary is hot".

MikeS

Kinda makes ya want to invade and set the poor girl free before they decide she has committed some kind of honor crime.

Nick Kasoff

"I think Hillary is hot".

Gross! And if they come out with a "Women of TAP" (Grrrlz of TAP?) calendar, do NOT post samples on here.

Nick Kasoff
The Thug Report

Lew Clark

I thought lefties were kinda unisex. How dare them make gender distinctions!

Patton

I think women like Hilliary for one simple reason.

She's never done a damm thing but claims all the credit.

Her sinlge accomplishment is getting elected to the Senate as a Democrat from that big time Red state New York.

She botched:

Whitewater
Webb Hubbell
Travelgate
Hillarycare
Stolen FBI files
Craig Livingstone
The Billing records
Bill using his little Bimbo-erupter on the hired help
etc.

She support both the starvation of Iraq, and then turned around and voted for the war, BOTH time knowing Iraq had WMD. So she's a two-faced liar to boot.

BarbaraS

Gross! And if they come out with a "Women of TAP" (Grrrlz of TAP?) calendar, do NOT post samples on here

I wouldn't dream of it. I saw pictures of the naked protesters last year. It was enough to turn a person off sex for life.

Sara (Squiggler)

Maybe the women of TAP should start hanging out here at JOM. I haven't noticed those demographics around here. Shy would be the last word on my list to describe a JOM woman! Can a calendar be far behind?

verner

I'm in the 18-49 female demographic--and I hate her guts.

Sara (Squiggler)

I'm in the 49-65 age group and I can't stand her either.

Syl

I'd like a male calendar of Hillary Haters. Pot bellies and all.

Ew.

hit and run

OT:

Attorney in Duke lacrosse case dies

34 minutes ago


CHAPEL HILL, N.C. - Kirk Osborn, a lead defense attorney in the Duke lacrosse sexual assault case, died early Sunday, a fellow defense attorney in the case said.


Osborn had a massive heart attack on Friday and died shortly before 1 a.m. Sunday, attorney Joe Cheshire said.

Osborn represented Reade Seligmann, one of three Duke lacrosse players charged in the case stemming from a dancer's allegation she was sexually assaulted at a team party. The players were originally indicted on charges of rape, sexual offense and kidnapping, but Durham District Attorney Mike Nifong dropped the rape charges in December after the accuser changed a key detail in her story.

BarbaraS

Her sinlge accomplishment is getting elected to the Senate as a Democrat from that big time Red state New York.

Correction: Her single accomplishment was marrying Bill. The senate seat in New York was given to her because of that. It was no accomplishment of hers.

sylvia

"TAPPED, Where The Men Are Average And The Women Are Shy"

Sounds like regular life.

sylvia

I do think there's a point to it. Men on the whole just don't like females who have strong opinions - that attitude is still alive and well in the civilized world.

reliapundit

35% of the electorate will vote GOP - whether they hold their noses or not.

ditto the dems.

it's the other 30% who count. and they don't read TAPPED.

i think they will largely go to the nominee who projects leadership.

this is difficult for those who've never led anything in their lives (except led an effort to get them elected!).

gender and race will NOT be a factor.

i think a "HIGH LQ" leadership quotient (Tm pending) is why rudy is doing so well despite his lib/left positions.

and it's why mitt (nor anyone else) can't get traction BY TRYING TO OUTFLANK HIM ON THE RIGHT.

mccain's hawkishness scares people because it's so reflexively "MORE TROOPS!" gosh, he was saying that every day for the six months of the bombing of serbia, and he was 100% WRONG.

hillary does not have a high "LQ" - she has name recognition. obama too. edwards has zero LQ; ditto kucinich.

only richardson has any LQ - well there's also Warner, but he dropped out. besides bill richardson nobody in the dem field has any REAL executive experience - private, public or otherwise.

the gender gap is meaningless, IMHO, and the proof is that the pollsters now HAVE TO break it down by generation, too.

the gender and generation demos are meaningless when it comes to politburo dems like the folks at TAPPED: the TAPPED folks are as elitist as they come and will vote the party line.

the only real wild card is mccain: who might run on a thitd party line - a reform party with a "unity twist: and run with a dem like joe lieberman.

and thereby elect obama (or hillary)... the same way perot elected bj clinton - twice.

Mailanka

Reading over the comments in the TAPPED story, it's sad to see how many liberals are perfectly willing to fall into the -ism trap. They always accuse right-wingers of being sexist, racist, whatever. It's like it's all they can think about. Now they're accusing each other of it. And they actually think it's believable.

The harsh reality is that Hilary's campaign is stalling, and it didn't have that much momentum to begin with. And all she and her supporters can do is flutter about right-wing (and now left-wing?) conspiracies and "sexism."

Maybe if she worried less about these phantoms and more about, I don't know, honing her message, she might pick up momentum again. *shrugs*

Assistant Village Idiot

sylvia, unless you mean "most people feel uncomfortable in the presence of someone expressing a strong opinion," I would disagree. Perhaps it is because I work in a female-dominated profession, but your observation seems not only an overgeneralization, but perhaps even backwards.

sylvia

"your observation seems not only an overgeneralization"

I do think men and women tend to socialize differently and that trends can be observed. Of course that goes without saying that that does not apply to all men or all groups, but that it tends to happen more often.

I've noticed it from personal experience, that it is true that women tend not to give any opinions at all about topical debates in a group mixed-sex discussion, especially controversial ones. And if one women does, then men often band together to reinforce the prevailing opinion, whereas the women remain silent. If fact, several times I've been in a situation like that, got no help from the women in a group in a debate, but only afterwards they would come up to me and whisper when we were alone "I think you were right".

I then notice that sometimes almost ANY opinion by a woman is ridiculed by some men. For example, one time I remember giving an opinion on a computer class I had and the differnt types of systems we had. I thought one type was ridiculous because it was harder to use and it didn't really offer any advantages, but for some reason it was thought of as the superior system, mostly because I think some people bought into the hype that because it was harder to use, it must be superior. So all the guys in the groups ridiclued my opinion.

Then, a friend of mine who was pretty much a math and computer science genius finally spoke up and said he agreed with me and basically echoed my opinion. Then they group shut up and then agreed with him. Same opinion - one was treated with ridicule, one treated with respect. I think that also has a lot to do with the male idea of status, and judging an opinion not so much on its merits but on the status of who is giving it. And since women still are at a power disadvantage, women are still not givin the respect of their opinions.

So I again, I think it has to go with group dynamics. Men tend to band together, especially when challenged by a woman, but the women don't often band together in return. I think that is one reason that women are still not equal in the workplace, as told in interviews I saw by Liz Wiehl recently on Fox on her new book the 51% minority. It is still a fact of soceity.

Cody

At the risk of sounding like the neighborhood comment monster, could it be that the males have reasonable objections to Hillary's policies, therefore have reasons to be against her. Whereas, the females merely support her because she shares the same reproductive organs as they do.

Doesn't sexism work both ways? Oh well.

That's all I have. I'll go back to my basement where I gleefully abuse small animals.

sylvia

"Doesn't sexism work both ways? Oh well."

It defintiely does. Some women are more sexist than the men. I just submit that we are on the whole socialized creatures, and are supposed independent actions are not always so independent, but a reflection of our cultural mores.

sylvia

correction - and OUR supposed independent

(Also all the typos, but who cares about those really?)

richard mcenroe

YES, SYLVIA! YES! I am so terrified by women of strong opinions I threw away my TV in case I turned it on and watched The View by mistake...

Lew Clark

My last three supervisors were women. I'm only intimidated by women's strong opinions if those opinions include my piss poor work performance.

Sara (Squiggler)

If reliapundit is implying Romney doesn't have LQ, then I think he might need to check Romney's actual real world record of leadership as a businessman, the savior of the Olympics or as Governor. Not to mention that the LDS church begins preparing its members from the age of three and up to assume leadership roles both in life and within the church.

I like Rudy and would vote for him if he gets the nomination, but he isn't my first choice and I sure wish he would withdraw and take the job as Attorney General instead.

sylvia

"I turned it on and watched The View by mistake..."

Ahh see, there are only women on the show, that's different. Besides, what several strong-willed, obviously not shy comediennes/journalists act like, is not an accurate reflection of the state of most women.

Sara (Squiggler)

I don't think being shy about an academic or intellectual conclusion accurately reflects the state of most women. Women may be shy about asking a guy out or about group showers in a high school gym class, but shy in front of a bunch of guys about her choice in political candidates? Seems like a guy fantasy, not a woman reality.

Extraneus

As the conversation turned to '08, a young woman spoke up softly. "I like Hillary," she said. Very quickly, several men raised their voices against her, expounding, at great length...

Just like that meanie Rick Lazio with his debating space invasion! Oh, how cruel and boorish men can be. We should feel sorry for Hillary and all the brave and feminine girls who support her, the poor things.

sylvia

"Oh, how cruel and boorish men can be."

Sarcasm is Exhibit A on male insensitivity.

Syl

Sylvia

Sarcasm is Exhibit A on male insensitivity.

BS.

American males are the BEST on the planet. Period. I think women are stupid to seriously criticize them.

Both males and females in America are confident and enjoy playing with each other. And you can take that to mean anything you wish. I stand firmly behind and ahead of the American male. As I said, they're the best.

sylvia

"American males are the BEST on the planet. Period. I think women are stupid to seriously criticize them. "

Denial is Exhibit B on women's inability to criticise the status quo.

Syl

Denial is Exhibit B on women's inability to criticise the status quo.

Denial is Exhibit B on sylvia's inability to to even know what the status quo IS.

Fritz

Margaret Thatcher has strong opinions and most men I know have a lot of respect for her.

Specter

sylvia,

Please don't start with your male-hatred again. In most of the other threads lately you have been rational and reasoned. But for some reason this subject really gets your goat. Not sure who has mistreated you so badly. You should get beyond it.

I am a stay-at-home dad and have been for almost 15 years. My wife is a corporate executive and is sometimes very vocal on both politics and religion. She is not like the females you obviously hang out with (or the men). She has worked in the educational technology arena for almost 25 years, and that is an industry that has it's share or female executives. The people we know and socialize with are so far from your generalization of "how things are" that it really makes you look sad. Sorry - but that is the truth of it.

topsecretk9

At the risk of sounding like the neighborhood comment monster, could it be that the males have reasonable objections to Hillary's policies, therefore have reasons to be against her. Whereas, the females merely support her because she shares the same reproductive organs as they do.

Read this quote (my personal favorite in idiot feminism)
Patricia Foulkrod film producer and Code Pink activist :

"The difference is that Clinton was so brilliant... If Arnold was a brilliant pol and had this thing about inappropriate behavior, we'd figure a way of getting around it. I think it's to our detriment to go on too much about the groping. But it's our way in. This is really about the GOP trying to take California in 2004 and our trying to stop it."

- so they don't call us flippant for nothin'!!

(the above also works well under TM's "Where's the Love" post too.

Jack Okie

Amen, Fritz.

Sylvia's onto something, although perhaps taking the generalization a little too far. A friend's relationship recently broke up because the guy she was engaged to was threatened by her smarts and accomplishments. Not me though - my fantasy women is a PhD in atomic physics who flies an SR-71 and models for Victoria's Secret.

JorgXMcKie

re: sylvia's opinions on male/female relationships from anecdotal observations.

I figure that you tend to find what you're looking for.

For horror stories of sexist gender-bashing, ask my wife to describe her two grad Women's Studies courses. That was 15 years ago and she *still* refuses to call herself a feminist due to the 'feminists' she was exposed to in those courses. And talk about strong opinions and ridiculing the opinions of the minority, go to any male-bashing 'feminist' gathering.

Ralph L.

"I stand firmly behind and ahead of the American male. As I said, they're the best."

Thank you, but your standing with respect to the American male is a little odd, to put it mildly.

Sara (Squiggler)

My Aunt used to say that the sign of a good woman was one who always made her man THINK he was making the decisions and in charge and then the feminists came along and screwed up a good thing.

SlimGuy

Mine was the wind beneath my wings.

AST

The problem with "feminism" is its assumption that women need to act more like men in order to compete with them for power, money, etc. The result has been more, not fewer, boorish men and more boorish, masculinized women. Oh, and WAY more sensitive feminized men afraid to alienate the women they meet on campus.

Bruce Hayden

I disagree with the posters who have suggested that Hillary has done nothing. Rather, she got her husband elected president and kept him in office.

First and formost, her husband, while greatly gifted, is also greatly flawed. Among other things, he is a pathological lier and serial philanderer, verging on being a sexual addict (these aren't of course formal diagnoses, since I am not a shrink).

Hillary was instrumental in his career in a couple of ways. First, whenever he ran into major setbacks, it was inevitably she who would come out swinging, kicking him in the rear end to get him moving again.

And second, she has always provided the damage control for him. The PIs who were on Bimbo Patrol worked for her. The FBI files were pulled by her people, and it appears that the IRS audits of political enemies did too. And it appears that it had almost become a game with her husband to thwart her control of his White House philandering that may have resulted in the Blue Dress and Impeachment. But note that her interest in her husband's philandering has always seemed to be more about it looking bad to everyone else (notably voters) than to herself.

If this all is anyway accurate, it might explain the different views of her by the two sexes, esp. in those age groups. Men, except for the women close to them in their lives, discount this sort of thing, and indeed, distrust it. But many women have traditionall gained their power in just this way - through their men.

And this is part of the problem. On the one hand, she claims to be and to represent the "new woman" who accomplishes things on her own, and not through her man. On the other, she has accomplished much more the traditional way, through her man.

BarbaraS

The woman latched onto Bill because she could see he was going places. A lot of sociopaths do get ahead in life. Why not, when they have no integrity or morals? She stayed with him through thick and thin for this reason. Why he married her is a poser. I have seen pictures of her with her hair stringy and greasy and no make up on in public. She evidently has a terrible temper and is a strong managing female. Probably he chose her because his standards have never been too high. I say this because of the women he has been involved with. All he requires is that they be female. Then again maybe she reminded him of his mother. I read she had a terrible temper also.

SlimGuy

List all of Hillary's legislative accomplishments as a Senator.

Outside of naming several post offices and latching onto some bills as co-sponsor.

lonetown

""I like Hillary," she said. Very quickly, several men raised their voices against her,"

Clearly verbal Rape!

sylvia

"Please don't start with your male-hatred again"

Why are observations of male/female relationships considered "male hatred"? As you can see, I am equally hard on the women. If you want to know, nothing's bad really happened to me in my life. However, I am not blind, and I can observe the social trends around me. I don't see why I should pretend I don't observe what I observe. You are allowed to observe race relations, or treatment of gays, or any other group, but when you question gender relations, you all of a sudden "hate men". I suppose Muslim women in the Middle East are told the same thing too whenever they question not being able to drive and why they must wear burkas. I had thought we were a little more advanced here.

Neo

This line about "male evil-doers" came from another of those softball questions that Hiliary get regularly from the press corpse.

For the question to have any real punch, the phrase "male evil-doers" should be replaced with "male evil-doers who want to kill you for no particular reason".

Stupid is as stupid does.

Kazinski

I think Hillary is by far and away the most serious candidate on the Democratic side. But that says more about the other democratic candidates than it says about her. And lets not forget what Brad DeLong says about Hillary:

My two cents' worth--and I think it is the two cents' worth of everybody who worked for the Clinton Administration health care reform effort of 1993-1994--is that Hillary Rodham Clinton needs to be kept very far away from the White House for the rest of her life. Heading up health-care reform was the only major administrative job she has ever tried to do. And she was a complete flop at it. She had neither the grasp of policy substance, the managerial skills, nor the political smarts to do the job she was then given. And she wasn't smart enough to realize that she was in over her head and had to get out of the Health Care Czar role quickly.

Larry

I make all the big decisions in our house, like defense and foreign policy, etc. My wife makes all the small decisions, like which house, car, appliance we're buying and when, who we socialize with, etc.

Larry

I don't understand why women want to be equal to men, but I think it's very generous of them to take at least one step down to where the guys are here.

Sara (Squiggler)

I'm with Larry, I never understood why women wanted to give up so much to lower themselves to being equal with men. And I will never understand the philosophy that women should give up their most powerful weapon, their femininity, once they reach the borders of power. Men use every weapon at their disposal to rise thru the ranks, why should women limit themselves?

Bill Clinton is a submissive, Hillary is dominant. I think the two of them got together in college first on an intellectual level. I think Hillary saw Bill's potential potential but realized early on that he is the type of man who needs to be told what to do and when to do it. He is intelligent enough to then carry out the "plan." And, I don't say this to be mean, but I believe that Hillary is a lesbian and never really cared about Bill's sex life unless it interfered with "the plan."

If you look at the times Bill got in trouble, it was when Hillary was away or otherwise distracted. The plane on the tarmac in L.A. while he got a little, when she was distracted by a parent's funeral, when she was traveling or out of the country. Bill was Hillary's wind up toy.

In some respects, I watched the same scenario play out with my parents. My Mom was the brilliant Hillary-type nerd plain Jane. My Dad was the Big Man on Campus football hero, best fraternity, the life of the party type. When they got together, the first thing he did was teach my Mother how to dress for success, which included showing off her very best feature, her legs. He used to tell her, first you get their attention with your dynamite appearance, then you can wow them with your brilliant mind. But first you've got to get their attention. He spent his life advancing my Mother because he admired her so much. She in turn credited him to her dying day with opening the right doors for her and being there for her when her own social shyness would have held her back. Of course, it takes a very secure man, in his own right, to be able to fill the role. Unfortunately, there are lots of men who do not see how a successful and powerful woman advances them too. And there are lots of women who don't have the roadmap to know how to play that role either. When you get two people who can both play the game (even if they don't see it as a game), the sky is the limit.

The feminist movement has been a disaster for women with unintended consequences. They have turned the new generation of men into wimps and strong, smart women do not want wimpy men. Think Pamela Geller of Atlas Shrugs,a beautiful woman who isn't afraid to use her femininity but gets the interviews that everyone else is clambering for. Think the movie "The Right Stuff" and Chuck Yeager's wife who never gave an inch, but was a lusty woman her husband adored, think poor Maureen Dowd who bemoans where are the real men. And then take a look at your friends. Almost every couple I have known over my lifetime, the wife makes the decisions and the men carry them out. The best marriages and the most powerful are those where both parties use their strengths to fill in the gaps for the other's weaker aspects. It works both ways and both benefit when they are in sync.

Jane

And I will never understand the philosophy that women should give up their most powerful weapon, their femininity, once they reach the borders of power. Men use every weapon at their disposal to rise thru the ranks, why should women limit themselves?

We are not all purring kittens. You can't get or keep power for any length of time unless you know yourself and are true to that knowledge. I would suggest that to some of us, strength is feminine.

sylvia

Speaking of women's rights - Anna Nicole's autopsy. Figures. Howard Stern will probably get away with it too, he's too clever. Sorry to sound man-hatery here, but sadly another woman mowed down by the man in her life.

sylvia

"They have turned the new generation of men into wimps and strong, smart women do not want wimpy men. "

I don't think that's really true. Where are the wimpy men? I think they are just as many macho types as before. But I do agree that women did lose in some way because now men can act like before, but women are supposed to do it all now. Still I think we've all gained on the whole, but we still need to adjust as the generations go on.

Sara (Squiggler)

Sylvia: I don't necessarily equate "macho" with being non-wimpy. It is a very complicated issue. Many "macho" men have serious self-esteem issues and they over compensate while basically trying to prove their manhood through controlling the women in their lives.

When I was a counselor at a Domestic Violence Center, we would tell the women that the first time he hit them it was HIS fault, the second time it was HER fault. The biggest hurdle was in reprogramming those women so that they could see that the problem was the man's anger toward women and that they were not the underlying cause so to cover for their man was self-abuse. I have known women who have spent their entire lives in abusive situations starting with their fathers and brothers and then on to the men they marry or pick to have relations with. The only attention they've gotten has been violence until they begin to equate getting beaten with being loved. It is sick, but it is real and requires sometimes years of therapy to change.

Self-assured men (or women in some cases) do not need to beat their partners to get their own way. Self-assured men and women know that a partnership between them is strength and brings success.

Women (and men) can spot a potential abuser long before their "macho" attitudes cause problems. Do they refer to women as sluts and whores? How do they refer to minorities or others of lesser status? Are they braggarts? Liars? Do they equate their manhood with how tough they are? Do they put you down or jump on some moment of your own weakness and use it against you rather than help you get past it?

We see it on this forum from time to time and on many other sites as well. Men who can't make their own argument fall back on belittling the woman. Look at some of the put downs of Clarice for just one example, questioning her bona fides as a lawyer is one of the biggies. And if you really want a poster boy, check out Larry Johnson and how he deals with those who disagree with him (both women and men) while he brags about his own CIA life as if that puts the seal of real manhood on him.

Sara (Squiggler)

Correction: I said "The biggest hurdle was in reprogramming those women so that they could see that the problem was the man's anger toward women and that they were not the underlying cause so to cover for their man was self-abuse."

This is incomplete and leaves the wrong impression. The biggest problem is the man's anger at himself for not attaining what in his mind is his rightful place in the world pecking order and he blames others for his own failings.

Some women do this as well, but not as often since they are far more flexible and pliable and in many cases have never had the opportunity to know any different. Or they've never had anyone tell them they deserve better.

My Dad told me when I was a child that I should never stand for being disrespected and that I could be anyone I wanted to be if I wanted it badly enough. My daughter-in-law was told by her father on the day she had her first menstrual period, "oh good, another slut hits the street." She was the youngest of 8 children, with 5 older sisters, who he always accused of looking like or acting like the sluts he knew they were. My Dad didn't question his own manhood, her father was always bragging about what a real man he was because he'd fathered 8 children and had them all, including his poor wife, whipped into shape and they knew who was the boss. Yes, he was stronger, a real he-man, and could grab them by the hair and hold their heads over a pan of hot grease because his home fried potatoes were cut too thick.

Extraneus

Sadly, another man mowed down by the woman he loved...

Housewife Convicted of Frying Husband

Extraneus

bgates

sylvia - I suppose Muslim women in the Middle East are told the same thing too whenever they question not being able to drive and why they must wear burkas.

You're just Rosa Parks all over again, aren't you? (Was that exhibit A or B?)

Neo - "male evil-doers who want to kill you for no particular reason" - Islamophobe!

sylvia

Good thoughts Sara. Seems you have studied these issues in the school of real life.

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Wilson/Plame