Duke Lacrosse - Charges To Be Dropped

ABC News reports that the charges will be dropped.

We endorse the point endorsed by KC Johnson - the state really owes the public as full an explanation of the background as possible, not just a terse announcement that charges will be dropped because the case can not be proved.  However, that might conflict with ongoing proceedings against DA Mike Nifong.

My questions - wouldn't the families of the lacrosse players get new counsel for the inevitable and well-deserved civil suit?  And will that suit be filed promptly, or do they wait until the three men have re-located to new colleges?

Comments

[clarice]

I think a big successful lawsuit against Duke will do more to rein in bad faculty behavior than anything I can think of.
(Well, short of the Board of Trustees getting a pair and showing Broadhead the door.)

[Other Tom]

I am rubbing my hands together contemplating the list of defendants for the civil action. First, the list doesn't include Nifong, who is almost certainly immune, and it doesn't include the dancer, who has no money and who would unduly complicate the suit. I have in mind the university, its president, the eighty-some faculty members who rushed to judgment (they are my personal favorite target), the county, and perhaps the city.

I would urge the families at all costs not to accept reimbursement of their attorney's fees from the university, unless they come with absolutely no strings attached, such as a release from liability.

I'd like to go back and review what Sharpton and Jackson had to say, and if appropriate I'd include them in the counts based on defamation.

Oh, this is going to be fun!

[clarice]

I think so, too, Other Tom. Unfortunately, I believe the professors' liability will be covered by the university, but we'll see. It's about time some nitwits in academia are held responsible for their outrageous conduct.

[bad]

Maybee John Edwards can do a big clss action suit against all of the offending parties on behalf of the players.

[cathyf]

I'm hoping for criminal charges -- witness tampering, conspiracy to suborn perjury, blackmail -- both with respect to the "victim" and the cabdriver. Nifong and the police acted like gangsters threatening witnesses.

[Jane]

Keep it in the civil arena, more discovery, more sunshine, more fun. And to answer TM's question, most lawyers of any reknown don't do both civil and criminal stuff. It's too hard to be an expert on everything.

I never had a huge interest in the case, but I am very happy for those young men today. Injustice really sucks.

[Chris Fotos]

Wow.The "We believe they are innocent of these charges." That's a heckuva lot more than "insufficient evidence"....

[Jeff Dobbs]

"We just hope this traumatic experience for all involved ends with the minimum amount of damage," said the Rev. Jesse Jackson

[clarice]

The old reverand demagogue comes thru again, h & r.Everyone on the other side was part of a new age lynching and we shouldn't let them forget it. Ius is peanuts compared to this.

[Jeff Dobbs]

Yes, there are many aspects to this "traumatic experience" that Jackson will no doubt now want to minimize.

I'm sure we will have a statement from Wendy Murphy soon?

[topsecretk9]

-- the eighty-some faculty members who rushed to judgment (they are my personal favorite target)--

Mine too.

I think the AG was way stronger than I ever imagined in the whacked PC world we live - even noting that the "federal" government has recently experienced rouge prosecutors with power who (IIRC) "go far out on their own" wink, wink.

I think the only PC casualty was there decision to charge the false accuser (at least they strongly considered it!)

[topsecretk9]

Yikes...

I think the only PC casualty was **their** decision **NOT** to charge the false accuser (at least they strongly considered it!)

[Forbes]

Well, one of the three "accused" graduated from Duke last year, IIRC, team co-captain Dave Evans.

Also, see KC Johnson's Durham-in-Wonderland for an update on the NC State's Attorney statement on the case.

[Enlightened]

Do you guys remember the utterly reprehensible march by the New Black Panthers demanding GUILT? Gateway Pundit has the video. Now there's a bunch that need to get sued.

[Specter]

I'm not convince that Nifong is immune. It appears that he materially participated in the police investigation, rather than just preparing the case for court. In many states, on that basis, he loses his immunity.

[Enlightened]

Ugh - Gateway also has the flyer from the Panthers up that they used on campus - I hope the Duke Three lawyers are all over this s--t.

Malik Shabazz - Time to stand up pal.

[topsecretk9]

NYTImes was the Nifong/False Accuser cheerleader of record right?

[topsecretk9]

Man - I am so proud of Evans.

[Enlightened]

I tend to agree with Bob Owens, I don't think putting her picture out there is adding any context to the story. It makes her an easy mark for anyone. I get the "but the innocent accused" were pictured every where. They are big boys, very capable of taking care of themselves. She is not. Add to that her obvious mental challenges - I just don't see any reason to paint that bullseye on her. Once again I question the MSM and their complete lack of ethics. God forbid anything happens to her.

One of the faculty has already stated she thinks the rape did happen, regardless of this announcment. She said that the fact the trial never went forward means no one will ever really know for sure, so as long as there is room for doubt she is sticking to her original assessment, which apparently is guilty until proven innocent.

Unbelievable. And this dipwad is teaching our children. Is this what Nancy means by "For the Children"?

[sylvia]

Well good for the LAX players. Sure took a while though to get here. Hopefully that means the new DA on the case made a thorough investigation.

Still some questions I have about the case from the facts I know about it. Until those are explained better, I will still not mentally concede guaranteed complete innocense. And if these guys are really concerned about convincing doubters like myself for their future reputations, they should give some interviews giving an 'honest' explantion this time of where the accuser was and who she was with in the up to 10 minutes or so she was alone in the house. If they are not guilty, they should have nothing to hide about this.

As to dreams of civil lawsuits - unlikely. Malicious prosecution not really possible here because you did have an accuser saying she was assaulted, and no good explantion from the players as to what happened otherwise during the time she was alone in the house. Perhaps maybe Seligman would be the only one who could try that because of his ATM records, but the timeline was still not 100% clear, so not even for him actually. The remedy instead against Nifong is perhaps disbarrment for his questionable tactics.

Lawsuits against also Duke unlikely because I heard that Duke has a long-standing policy that any student accused of a felony will be suspended until the case is resolved, and that probably includes any sports as well, so Duke just went with their policy. Lawsuits agsint the accuser unlikely as well because she has no money. Lawsuits against the professors who signed that ad also unlikely because they have their freedom of speech.

So this is probably the end of it. But for me, many questions still remain.

[topsecretk9]

OK...proud of them all.

[clarice]

This IS the end of it for them. As for your questions they are as we have repeatedlt told you groundless. Stay awake thinking some other deep thoughts, Sylvia.

[clarice]

This IS the end of it for them. As for your questions they are as we have repeatedly told you groundless. Stay awake thinking some other deep thoughts, Sylvia.

[topsecretk9]

--I will still not mentally concede guaranteed complete innocence.--

Oh that's rich - the basis of our legal system is "Innocent until proven guilty" not, "guilty until Sylvia thinks not".

[Specter]

In this country sylvia, people are innocent until proven guilty. Period. Even when a trial starts, judges lecture jurors about this fact. When the DA comes forward and says the guys are innocent, that just strengthens it. I am sorry that you don't believe in such basic American concepts.

I don't think the papers should have published the girl's photo and name. That was wrong. But, if you ask me, she wasn't the victim here. The young men who were falsely accused were. I think the real solution is that nobody's name, especially in this type of case, is published until the facts are on the table. That way, every one is protected.

[Enlightened]

The attorney general said the three were INNOCENT. No assualt occurred.

It was up to the ACCUSER to explain what happened, and the prosecutor to try and convict, otherwise they are INNOCENT. Period.

Teh accuser failed. The prosecutor illegally tried to try and convict.

These boys don't have to explain anything to anyone, they need only rebut what they have been accused of, which they have done -repeatedly. The last thing they need is to sell their innocence to the unbelievers that convicted them based on their race and status.

[sylvia]

"These boys don't have to explain anything to anyone"

Exactly. They don't need to. But if they are so concerned about their "reputation" they might want to tell us not what actually happened in that house that night.

[sylvia]

correction - that's tell us NOW

[topsecretk9]

I totally disagree about revealing the accuser...she is not going to face charges - no legal jeopardy for lying - if we get in the habit of just letting those who do this sort of thing slink away with no scrutiny, then we gain nothing - no down side to lying about crimes - keeps happening.

[topsecretk9]

Sylvia

Maybe you can go dredge up the grand jury transcript and explain why they were charged.

[sylvia]

"In this country sylvia, people are innocent until proven guilty. Period. "

Yes people are LEGALLY innocent until proven guilty. Individuals are free to make up their own minds about someone's character and actions.

Sorry, but just because the court ruled a certain way, I will not be a fan of say OJ or Robert Blake any time soon.

[Specter]

Here is what Cooper said at the news conference:

"Based on the significant inconsistencies between the evidence and the various accounts given by the accusing witness, we believe these three individuals are innocent of these charges," Cooper said.

He said the charges resulted from a "tragic rush to accuse and a failure to verify serious allegations."

Notice, he did not say that there was "insufficient evidence". He said that guys are innocent

Of course, the NAACP has a different point of view (emphasis mine):

"We respect the integrity of the Attorney General’s investigation and supported the involvement of special prosecutors. If his office believes the state lacks sufficient evidence to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that all the elements of each crime took place, then it is the state’s constitutional duty to dismiss the charges. ... Now, as we have repeatedly said, comes the hard part. How do we proceed toward the healing places in our communities and our hearts? Long after the television vans with their saucer antennas have pulled out of Durham, long after the bloggers have grown weary from typing, those of us who believe in freedom and justice can not rest. How do we work to ensure that the final decisions in this case in no way deter women of color from making claims of violations against them which violate their spirits and their bodies?" — statement from William J. Barber II, president of the North Carolina NAACP

Notice how Mr. Barber bent the truth slightly.

[sylvia]

Clarice again it takes supreme discpline on my part to not respond to you in the way I would wish to respond. I will continue trying to doggedly ignore you.

[Specter]

sylvia,

sorry to say this, but in the light of everything that is known about this case, you are way off base. You still believe that it is true and that some rich white kids got off because of the fact they are white and have good lawyers. Some day you might want to look at the accuser here. Are you aware sylvia that up to 30% of the sexual assault charges today are false allegations? Reality check.

[SlimGuy]

Off Topic

Hot Air has audio of Tony Snow telling Bill O'reilly he DOES NOT have liver cancer

[topsecretk9]

Individuals are free to make up their own minds about someone's character and actions.

Yep, that works both ways - a previous rape allegation and...

Ms. Mangum was arrested in June 2002 after she got drunk, stole a car at a strip club, and lead police on a reckless high-speed chase. This incident resulted in the following charges:

Felonious Assault with a Deadly Weapon on Police Officer, O2-CRS-49961

Felonious Larceny and Felonious Possession of Stolen Vehicle charges, 02-CRS-49955

Felonious Speeding to Elude Arrest, Driving while Impaired (.19 Blood Alcohol Content) and Driving while License Revoked, 02-CRS-49956

Driving Left of Center, 02-CR-49958

Failure to Heed Blue Light and Siren and Reckless Driving in Wanton Disregard to Rights or Safety of Others, 02-CR-49959

Driving the Wrong Way on Dual Lane Highway and Open Container After Consuming Alcohol, 02-CR-49960

two counts of Injury to Personal Property, 02-CR-49962-63

Resisting a Public Officer, 02-CR-49964

She plead guilty to four misdemeanors in May 2003: Speeding to elude arrest, assault against a government official, DWI level 3, and larceny. She was required to serve three consecutive weekends in jail and placed on two years' probation.

Ms. Mangum paid her legal bills and $4,200 in restitution and court fees from the May 2003 convictions.

She has had three driving license suspensions.

[topsecretk9]

Individuals are free to make up their own minds about someone's character and actions.

Yep, that works both ways - a previous rape allegation and...

Ms. Mangum was arrested in June 2002 after she got drunk, stole a car at a strip club, and lead police on a reckless high-speed chase. This incident resulted in the following charges:

Felonious Assault with a Deadly Weapon on Police Officer, O2-CRS-49961

Felonious Larceny and Felonious Possession of Stolen Vehicle charges, 02-CRS-49955

Felonious Speeding to Elude Arrest, Driving while Impaired (.19 Blood Alcohol Content) and Driving while License Revoked, 02-CRS-49956

Driving Left of Center, 02-CR-49958

Failure to Heed Blue Light and Siren and Reckless Driving in Wanton Disregard to Rights or Safety of Others, 02-CR-49959

Driving the Wrong Way on Dual Lane Highway and Open Container After Consuming Alcohol, 02-CR-49960

two counts of Injury to Personal Property, 02-CR-49962-63

Resisting a Public Officer, 02-CR-49964

She plead guilty to four misdemeanors in May 2003: Speeding to elude arrest, assault against a government official, DWI level 3, and larceny. She was required to serve three consecutive weekends in jail and placed on two years' probation.

Ms. Mangum paid her legal bills and $4,200 in restitution and court fees from the May 2003 convictions.

She has had three driving license suspensions.

[clarice]

That is great news, Slim.

[Specter]

From WRAL.com:

If the charges are dismissed against the players, Nifong could face lawsuits from the players and their families on slander and civil rights violations, local attorneys said.

Prosecutors have absolute immunity for actions taken in the course of their duties. But the immunity becomes more limited for actions taken outside their duties, which could include Nifong's statements to the media before any of the players was indicted.

[clarice]

Sylvia, I am turning over a new leaf. I am holding women to the same high standards I hold men and children to in determining the rationality of their arguments. No more "ladies first" crap. Your head has obviously been filled with the most preposterous nonsense and it's time to clear it out so you can think clearly again. It's my latest public service endeavor.
That, and keeping that nutter Wendy Murphy off the air so more damage cannot be done.

[clarice]

Good. I am looking forward to seeing Nifong parking cars or something for a living.

[gmax]

“We believe that these cases were the result of a tragic rush to accuse and a failure to verify serious allegations. Based on the significant inconsistencies between the evidence and the various accounts given by the accusing witness, we believe these three individuals are innocent of these charges.”

Well a small victory lap around the track is in order. There were only two individuals who comment here with any regularity that were stuck on the false accuser's side. One obviously is not going to let any facts get in her way. What about the other one? Will she now acknowledge the patently obvious?

[sylvia]

"You still believe that it is true and that some rich white kids got off because of the fact they are white and have good lawyers."

Not true. I was suspicious from the beginning because I heard inconsistencies from both sides, so I did not think the case was as clear-cut like everyone seemed to desperately want to believe.

And this major inconsistency was that the defense side put out that the two women were alone in the bathroom for 20 minutes of so together and then left the house together. When in fact we know that this is not true. Kim Roberts went out to the car to change clothes leaving the accuser alone in the house for a period of time before she returned to the house to fetch her.

If the students were not guilty, why would they release an incomplete, at best, picture of the most important, central moments of that night. As to this date, I have not heard this discrepancy clarified. Until I do, I will personally remain doubtful. But we are all free to think the way we want to, and my personal thoughts should have no impact on the Duke students lives.

[Enlightened]

Well, I just personally feel that emblazoning her picture as Drudge has done is just morally wrong. I have NO sympathy for the accuser, I'm not championing her cause. I think printing the photo was done to inflame and incite further hatred towards her which I think is just wrong. I think there are some very twisted people out there that would cause her undue harm in retaliation. I hope I am wrong about that.

Mike Nifong is to blame for this. He allowed his personal life to interfere with his professional life. He made procedural and ethical errors that allowed this case to go ballistic. Neither the accused nor the accuser should have been subject to this moral cesspool.

I'm happy for the Duke Three, they maintained their innocence by word and deed, and factual evidence throughout this circus. The case was double checked and scrutinized and found to be baseless. The prosecutors stepped up and did their job.

The accuser deserves protection from a rabid, psychotic media, and whack jobs that might want to hurt her.

But most importantly, as Other Tom stated above - the abject, immoral, unethical Duke staff, Nifong, the Black Panthers, Sharpton, Jackson, and a litany of racial bigots need to be resoundingly smacked down. They fanned the flames. They deserve nothing less.

[Specter]

The problem is this. 25-30 years ago when a sexual allegation was made, it was basically ignored, or not taken seriously. That was completely wrong because assaults do happen; people get hurt.

The we became much more PC to the point where if an allegation is made, it must be true. That is where people like sylvia are. And she is not alone. In many of these cases a simple statement from a female is all that it takes to ruin a man's life. And in most cases, that is all the investigation that is done - a simple statement, even when there could be additional evidence.

What has happened is that the pendulum has swung to the other side - from ignoring to believing. It needs to be back in the middle where it belongs. I feel the only way to do that is to take up civil legal action against everyone who had anything to do with the malicious prosecution. Now - there is no money with the accuser, but somehow she needs to pay. There are deep pockets in the County, the City, the Police, Duke, and Nifong. Until the supporters of the belief "if she said it, it must be true" are made to pay, they will never wake up to reality.

Kind of rambling...sorry

[gmax]

BTW I am previously registered with Typepad and it was easier to use the pseudonym than to reregister. Its me though as in Gary MAXwell. Not that it was all that cryptic but since I always used my full name here in the past I wanted to make the complete disclosure.

And Duke University has a lot a "splainin'" to do for their actions here. They helped create an atmosphere where these three and all of their teammates had some legitimate fears for their safety and well being. Not to mention at least one documented case of retaliation by a professor with a whacked out leftwing agenda and a mean streak. I would think the endowment will shrink by a sizable number to adequate cover legal fees and pain and suffering caused by an institution that failed to live up to their lofty ideals in this matter.

[Specter]

sylvia,

In our country the defendant does not have to put on any defense whatsoever. None. Nada. It is up to the state to prove something happened. In this case, even the state is saying the boys are innocent. That should tell you something. Remember, that no matter what you think you did not have access to all the data/statements that the prosecutors did. So you may think you know, but in reality you don't. Sorry. Reality bursting in again.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

I think a big successful lawsuit against Duke will do more to rein in bad faculty behavior than anything I can think of. (Well, short of the Board of Trustees getting a pair and showing Broadhead the door.)

Considering my experience with Duke, I think a quick dance of the Ceremonial Dance of Schadenfreude is in order.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Oh, oh. I may not have successfully closed that blockquote.

[Enlightened]

Sylvia - Tip: OJ went to trial. Blake went to trial.

This case never made it to trial.

We can all be suspicious of anyone at any time, for any reason. The reason we have laws, grand juries and trials is to make sure "suspicious" persons are actually guilty.

The law was followed here, and the "suspicions" you espouse are not warranted.

But your bias against the three men whose lives were nearly destroyed by "suspicious" minds is patently obvious.

[stevesh]

Re: "Ceremonial Dance of Schadenfreude"

Over at Memeorandum - crickets - from the Pandagons, Kryptonite-to-Stupids, et. al..

[sylvia]

"The we became much more PC to the point where if an allegation is made, it must be true. That is where people like sylvia are."

You obviously did not read my post above. It is not just about my feelings, it is about the evidence. Again, until important questions are answered, which no one had done yet, there is no clear picture here. What happened in the house the minutes the accuser was alone? If the accuser left with her purse, as shown in pictures, and made a call from her cellphone in the car, and never went back into the house, how did her purse and cell phone end up back in the bathroom?

These questions are not about my feelings. If you continue to think so, I'm afraid you are the one who may be going on feelings.

[clarice]

I wanna dance w/ you Charlie--Are we wearing buckskins or Buddhist robes for this ine?

[clarice]

I wanna dance w/ you Charlie--Are we wearing buckskins or Buddhist robes for this one?

[sylvia]

"So you may think you know, but in reality you don't. "

That is true. I don't know all the facts. But that goes both ways. Again I am open to more information. If the guys chose to give interviews and provided sincere information that made sense, that might remove any doubt for me. But that is up to them to decide that or not. Again, since my opinion is only personal, it really doesn't matter; however, if they are concernd there might be others like me out there and are worried about how this opinion might effect their reputations, and they have nothing to hide, I would think they would want to set the record straight. But again, I agree that is totally up to them.

[Enlightened]

Excerpt Reade Seligman statement:

"For everyone who chose to speak out against us before the facts were known, I sincerely hope that you are never put in a position where you experience the same pain and heartache that you have caused our families. While your hurtful words and outrageous lies will forever be associated with this tragedy, everyone will always remember that we told the truth, and in the words of Abraham Lincoln, “truth is the best vindication against slander‘. If our case can bring to light the some of the flaws in our judicial system as well as discourage people from rushing to judgment, than the hardships we have endured over this past year will not have been in vain."

"nuff said.

[gmax]

If it is possible for law enforcement officials to systematically railroad us with no evidence whatsoever, it is frightening to think what they could do to those who do not to have the resources to defend themselves. So rather than relying on disparaging stereotypes, or creating political and racial conflicts, we must all take a step back from this case and learn from it. This tragedy has revealed that our society has lost site of the core principle of our legal system, the presumption of innocence.

Perhaps Sylvia will want to read and truly comprehend what the above paragraph and all of its implications. This is a statement that the NAACP should understand better than most and should be echoing. That they are not, is certainly not encouraging for their continuing relevance in our society.

[sylvia]

"But your bias against the three men whose lives were nearly destroyed by "suspicious" minds is patently obvious."

Explain two facts that don't match and my suspicion will disappear. If factual discrepancies don't bother you, then you my friend are the one with the bias. But with that, must go, as I have a 6:00 deadline, and am late, although I would love to debate this all day. Actually probably better not to get caught up in it again...

[gmax]

Yeah I would leave the playing field early too if the game was turned into a total blowout and I could not even compete.

[prtymbl]

Sylvia: Perhaps she was simply taking a dump during the time window to which you refer.

[Great Banana]

Sylvia,

Not true. I was suspicious from the beginning because I heard inconsistencies from both sides, so I did not think the case was as clear-cut like everyone seemed to desperately want to believe.

You have it exactly backwards. The evidence from the get go pointed to their having been no crime, but there was a rush to judgment of guilt. those who were weary of the racial/gender victimology and class narrative and thought that the lacross players were being railroaded have been proven correct. Your insistance that there are "unanswered questions" is truly disturbing in this case.

I am a practicing attorney, and I don't think I can remember a single instance where a prosecutor dropped charges against someone and stated as clearly as here that not only were the accused innocent, but were wrongly accused in teh first instance. Normally, prosecutors couch dismissals in terms of not enough evidence. The fact that the state AG's office was so clear is the most damning evidence against Nifong and the accuser and it is clear, beyone a shadow of a doubt (regardless of your grasp at straws - I hope you never face a jury as unreasonable as yourself) that these young men are innocent.

If you can find me one instance - nationwide - in the past 10 years of a prosecutor dropping charges using the very clear language of innocence as they used here, I will be suprised. Give it up already.

[Great Banana]

Sylvia,

Well, one of the 3 has been proven to not even have been at the house at the time of the rape. there was no matching DNA. The other stripper there that night would not confirm the accuser's story. Her original descriptions of her attackers did not match the three picked out of the lacross picture book. She had falsley accused someone of rape in the past. She apparently has a history of mental illness. Her story changed numerous times.

With all of that, you still believe they are guilty, there is no rational way to convince you otherwise. You made up your mind and facts will not sway you. That is scary.

[Enlightened]

Oh, I definitely don't think the Duke Three care about your suspicions Sylvia.

They told the truth. That is supported by today's events. They have the law on their side.

If anything did happen in that house, the accuser was a willing participant. That is called consensual sex and last I heard, consensual sex is private.

Her bathroom proclivities are also no ones business. She probably took a skanky s--t and waited for the air to clear. Unless you can prove otherwise, I feel my suspicions about what she did in the bathroom for twenty minutes falls into the digestive/evacuation category.

[topsecretk9]

Um...that a new team charged with combing this case and apparently had more interviews with the false accuser than even Nifong in which it looks like her story changed yet again to the new team?...any "suspicions" and "questions that need to be answered" are willful ignorance or a need for injustice.

[SlimGuy]

Ace of Spades has an excellent Duke post up now

Duke admin position from his post

Let's be clear about what was said today. The Attorney General did not dismiss the allegations on narrow, equivocal or legalistic ground. He determined our students to be innocent of the charges and said they were "the tragic result of a rush to accuse." In short, he used the strongest language of vindication.

Reality strikes I guess.

[Enlightened]

Yeah but....They must have done something wrong. They were rich white college punks, and she was a poor black stripper.

So what if the facts gleaned from the investigation do not support the charges. They were drinking. They were from Duke. They were in College. They are Rich. So they MUST HAVE DONE SOMETHING that night.

It's just not possible that a confirmed liar, who has a history of claiming rape, had no DNA from ANYONE in the house or that neighborhood for that matter, was aided and abetted by a unethical prosecutor, might have got her story wrong. More than once. It's that crazy story about the bathroom scene. Just what do women do in bathrooms for 20 minutes? And PS - if the guys wanted to rape her - how come they didn't just throw her on the floor, couch, bed, table and have at it? Why was the bathroom elected? A bathroom 40 or so guys had used that night.

And the Duke Three have not changed one IOTA of their story from day one.

That in itself is suspicious. They have good lawyers, they have had plenty of time to perfect their story. They MUST have done something to her. Maybe she offered it up and they refused. All 40 or so. That could hurt someone's feelings. I'm still very suspicious about how they raped her and none of their DNA transferred over to her. It was the latex body suits I guess.

Suspicions.Suspicions.

[SlimGuy]

Off Topic

A great read from one of the Embassy hostages that did the 444 days in Iran that is well worth the read.

Gotta Love these Guys

[PeterUK.]

Sylvia,
A lot of clubs,don't have flat surfaces or toilet seats in,what is euphemistically called the bathroom, because the police sniffer dogs and the day cleaners were getting too high.
Also, as a man I never cease to be amazed at how long women can spend in the bathroom,twenty minutes,a mere snip.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

I wanna dance w/ you Charlie--Are we wearing buckskins or Buddhist robes for this one?

Formal mourning and clown makeup.

[SunnyDay]

Alright! One for the good guys! That wasn't just "another prosecutor," that was the NC Attorney General.

[Jane]

And if these guys are really concerned about convincing doubters like myself for their future reputations

Trust me they aren't.

Sorry, but just because the court ruled a certain way, I will not be a fan of say OJ or Robert Blake any time soon.

No Court ruled here sylvia, the state's top law enforcement person investigated and did NOT say there was not enough evidence to go to trial, but instead said they were INNOCENT. I've never heard that sort of language out of a prosecutor. What he made clear is that Nifong was out of line, and that the "victim" is not mentally stable which is borne out by her medical records.

The AG's statement is a little like Joe Wilson coming out and saying Scooter Libby wasn't involved.

You need to examine whatever personal baggage you are bringing to this matter, because it is clouding your thinking.

[Jeff Dobbs]

Clarice:
I wanna dance w/ you Charlie

Harrrumph! Stamps feet.

[Other Tom]

Sylvia, the fact that Duke may have a "policy" that it suspends people accused of felonies doesn't shield it one bit from civil liability, and any such policy is in any event utterly irrelevant to the horribly defamatory statement from the 81 faculty members--about which the university did absolutely nothing.

And if "questions still remain" for you, then by all means let's have a civil trial, in which people will be compelled to answer all of your questions--and no doubt some that havent't even occurred to you--under oath. Democracy in action; justice prevailing. Let's roll.

[Enlightened]

Perhaps there is something to Sylvia's "suspicions" - they strangely mimic those of some of the Duke 88 and even Pandagon.

It's simply not enough that these three men were completely vindicated. The fact remains that many people have branded them guilty, obviously not on the facts the AG presented today. They simply want them to be guilty of something. To assuage their own guilt of having a hand in this fiasco, they do what lefties do - blame someone, anyone, else.

[Specter]

sylvia,

I will only say one more thing. Real live professional law enforcement people just might already know the answers you are seeking. In essence, they said it didn't happen. Unfortunately, you probably aren't in position to ever know all of the evidence they saw. Done Deal.

Now - let's go back to talking about something else where you are rational about the subject. For some reason, this one is something that you can't see the forest for the trees. Everything else you've talked about since you came here has been reasonable, but not this.

[Jane]

It's simply not enough that these three men were completely vindicated. The fact remains that many people have branded them guilty, obviously not on the facts the AG presented today. They simply want them to be guilty of something. To assuage their own guilt of having a hand in this fiasco, they do what lefties do - blame someone, anyone, else.

Which is a good place to start in terms of damages for the trio. The left loves to make victims and they love to pay victims. The American way at work.

[Tom Maguire]

Sylvia - as I understand your position, it is that there are some unaccounted minutes in the stripper's evening, and until that is cleared up, you have your doubts as to whether nothing happened. You wrote:

And if these guys are really concerned about convincing doubters like myself for their future reputations, they should give some interviews giving an 'honest' explantion this time of where the accuser was and who she was with in the up to 10 minutes or so she was alone in the house.

Even if something did happen, how sure are you (given the haze over the photo line-ups) that Seligmann, Finnerty, and Evans are the three who ought to be answering your questions? Seligmann, for example, mihgt stick to his seemingly well-documented "wasn't there" alibi and never be able to satisfy you.

Or if everyone on the team states that nothing happened, will you believe them? Based on what - their word?

Or, if you remain skeptical, who do you suspect - the three accused, some shifty-eyed denier whose name we haven't heard yet, or what?

Regardless of the time gap, the fact is that accuser was initially quite clear about the circumstances of her rape, and the DNA was quite clear that it didn't happen the way she described it. That revelation did prompt a change in her story, I suppose.

[Specter]

From Fox News (April 19, 2006):

O'REILLY: I don't want to try anybody, but there is enough evidence that has surfaced here. We have evidence that DNA doesn't match the kids. We have evidence that ABC News uncovered that there is a recording made by a security guard who looked at the victim after she said she was raped and said there was no problem and we have a police officer who found the victim drunk in a car in a 7-Eleven who phoned it in before she went to the hospital. So when you have three elements like that, I say there is reasonable doubt right now. You know what the grand jury proceeding is.

SHARPTON: Absolutely.

O'REILLY: It's a one-sided proceeding.

SHARPTON: But I think that all of the facts that you have laid out the DA had — and I know this DA is probably not one that is crazy. He would not have proceeded if he did not feel that he could convict. So it tells me that all of what you said is either not true or he has convincing evidence that would certainly knock that out and no one is not letting him proceed. You know, a lot of those community leaders down there, pro and con, wanted a lot of people to come in. I know for a fact asked Jesse Jackson to come, we said we don't want to be (INAUDIBLE)...

[Enlightened]

OT - What happened to Sarah Squiggler? She stopped blogging?

[vnjagvet]

"Mere suspicion", sylvia, is something that many people have for many reasons.

That is why in legal systems the world over "mere suspicion" never rises to meaningful or reasonable evidence.

What could the NC Attorney General said to overcome your suspicions?

If what he said this afternoon was not enough, it seems to me nothing he could have said would ever have overcome them.

And if that is the case, it sounds like something other than evidence convinces you of their guilt.

What is it?

[RalphL]

"Formal mourning and clown makeup."

Do you mean mourning or morning clothes?

The big unanswered questions are why it took the State folks so long to get involved, and then to investigate, and clear this case?

I've always assumed Roy Cooper (state AG) had higher ambitions, but he isn't running for governor, yet. I would like to know why he waited til Nifong was re-elected to act, when it was obvious early on that things were fishy. But I don't know what his legal authority is, and I've lost touch with my lawyer cousins.

[RalphL]

Sara (Squiggler) now appears as Lady Sara. Let's not involve her in this discussion, if you please.

[Enlightened]

Oh that's her? I just went cruising by her blog and saw it re-routed saying she no longer blogs Miltary or Political subjects...

Just Curious....

[Specter]

More on Al "Imus" Sharpton from Jeff Jacoby at Capitalism Magazine:

1987: Sharpton spreads the incendiary Tawana Brawley hoax, insisting heatedly that a 15-year-old black girl was abducted, raped, and smeared with feces by a group of white men. He singles out Steve Pagones, a young prosecutor. Pagones is wholly innocent -- the crime never occurred -- but Sharpton taunts him: "If we're lying, sue us, so we can . . . prove you did it." Pagones does sue, and eventually wins a $345,000 verdict for defamation. To this day, Sharpton refuses to recant his unspeakable slander or to apologize for his role in the odious affair.

1991: A Hasidic Jewish driver in Brooklyn's Crown Heights section accidentally kills Gavin Cato, a 7-year-old black child, and antisemitic riots erupt. Sharpton races to pour gasoline on the fire. At Gavin's funeral he rails against the "diamond merchants" -- code for Jews -- with "the blood of innocent babies" on their hands. He mobilizes hundreds of demonstrators to march through the Jewish neighborhood, chanting, "No justice, no peace." A rabbinical student, Yankel Rosenbaum, is surrounded by a mob shouting "Kill the Jews!" and stabbed to death.

1995: When the United House of Prayer, a large black landlord in Harlem, raises the rent on Freddy's Fashion Mart, Freddy's white Jewish owner is forced to raise the rent on his subtenant, a black-owned music store. A landlord-tenant dispute ensues; Sharpton uses it to incite racial hatred. "We will not stand by," he warns malignantly, "and allow them to move this brother so that some white interloper can expand his business." Sharpton's National Action Network sets up picket lines; customers going into Freddy's are spat on and cursed as "traitors" and "Uncle Toms." Some protesters shout, "Burn down the Jew store!" and simulate striking a match. "We're going to see that this cracker suffers," says Sharpton's colleague Morris Powell. On Dec. 8, one of the protesters bursts into Freddy's, shoots four employees point-blank, then sets the store on fire. Seven employees die in the inferno.

[clarice]

Ralph, I think the impetus was the clear evidence that Nifong had w/held exculpatory DNA tsting material and the State Bar got involved. If you are asking whether there was some reason for the AG to enter the matterearlier, I think there was, and the State may be sued for sitting on its hands so long. That may explain the AG's statement that he wants a new law allowing the state Supreme Ct to remove DA's. (defensive move--suggesting little could have been done )
I think the state should consider some other new laws--transcripts of grand juries and a Statute entitling defendants to a speedy trial.

[Specter]

And then Jesse Jackson chimed in here:

Black women; white men. A stripper; and a team blowout. The wealthy white athletes – many from prep schools – of Duke; and the working class woman from historically black North Carolina Central. Race and class and sex. What happened? We don’t know for sure because the Duke players are maintaining a code of silence.

The history of white men and black women – the special fantasies and realities of exploitation – goes back to the nation’s beginning and the arrival of slaves from Africa. The patterns associated with this history arouse fears and evoke too many bad memories.

Of course this was before all the evidence was in - and before Mikey got elected!

[PeterUK.]

Has Sylvia ever been to a drunken party? If she has,then she will know that the answer is "What twenty minute"? "Whose twenty minutes"?
Might be a good idea to study group dynamics and the tidal flow of the interactions in groups.

[cathyf]

Her bathroom proclivities are also no ones business. She probably took a skanky s--t and waited for the air to clear. Unless you can prove otherwise, I feel my suspicions about what she did in the bathroom for twenty minutes falls into the digestive/evacuation category.

She had quite a bit of various drugs in her. Stimulants could have could have caused her to be sitting on the toilet for 20 minutes with the runs. Opiates cause vicious constipation -- she could have been sitting there for 20 minutes trying to go.

[RalphL]

Let's hope frat boys and sports teams will think twice about hiring strippers for private parties. They should keep them in the clubs where they belong.

I can imagine the ruckus hiring strippers would have caused at my college 25 years ago. Makes me feel old.

[Barry]

I wonder what the outcome would have been had the prosecution gone forward with the "right" jury? After the Libby trial, it is apparent the venue can work wonders for a prosecutor. What if these young men had been less afluent, less able to afford good legal counsel?

I have two boys still in college. If I sold everything I own I would be unable to pay the legal bills these families have.

I hope Nifong and Duke University pay a high price for this farce.

[clarice]

You bet, Barry, That is exactly what these families feared--especially after the poisoning of the well by the local papers, the race baiters and the bien pensants in the University.(I you recall the one public hearing was packed w/ Black Panthers.)

[michael]

Sobering, isn't it Barry. Sylvia, I share your suspicions; I'm not sure cleverly so called 'Scooter' Libby has given a coherent story about his recollections for the evening. What did he do when he was distracted and perhaps by Cheney's illegally intercepted pictures. Let us call forth Patrick, white horse, Fitzgerald and a bathhouse jury to search for the dragon and judge Clarice and Charlie's dancing! For me the dragon has been found and her face is shown. I wouldn't confuse her 'mental problems' with cold blooded lying. If the NAACP thinks that's status quo, then we acknowledge more problems.

[clarice]

Repeatedly members of the blogosphere have come forward and done great public service. We all owe a snifter clink to KC Johnson for his fabulous, unending work on this case.*cheeres to KC*

[clarice]

Repeatedly members of the blogosphere have come forward and done great public service. We all owe a snifter clink to KC Johnson for his fabulous, unending work on this case.*cheers to KC*

[topsecretk9]

Let us call forth Patrick, white horse, Fitzgerald and a bathhouse jury to search for the dragon and judge Clarice and Charlie's dancing!

Why can't I understand this? Is it just me?

[topsecretk9]

What did he do when he was distracted and perhaps by Cheney's illegally intercepted pictures.

Or this.

[clarice]

sarcasn, ts..

[sylvia]

"Even if something did happen, how sure are you (given the haze over the photo line-ups) that Seligmann, Finnerty, and Evans are the three who ought to be answering your questions?"

I'm not sure. I've always said from the beginning the line-up was flawed since there were no uninvolved photos and would be a main reason this case would be dropped, because there was no way to remedy that error. This case also had a handicap from the fact that from photos I saw, the team has a half dozen or so players who oddly look very much alike. I can relate because I have three young male neighbors who also look very much alike in terms of coloring, fashion, and build and it took me months to tell them apart, so I realize that the chance of the accuser being accurate in her identifications of these similar young looking men after one encounter and possibly being in an altered state as practically nill. The fact that the accused saw fit to call each other fake names boslters their chances of never being accurately identified.

But again, I am always recited the pro-defense litany, which I could debate and refute one by one, but I have done so many times in the past and I don't want to get that deeply into it again, there's no point anymore. But I have paid my dues in that regard. Still no one has EVER taken it upon themselves to explain the discrepancies I brought up or admit curiousity to having them resolved. Who cares what the accuser was doing alone in the house during the critical time period, right? Many here are just willing to assume she was performing bodily functions in the bathroom. Who cares if the team lied about both girls being in the bathroom together? It's just one little lie about the most important element in the case right? But in my opinion, usually when people lie about their alibi, it usually means they have something to hide. But one lie is just not important they say and a fact that a lie was the main defense does not seem to bother anyone. And so just how did the accuser's purse get back into the bathroom when she never went back in the house? Who cares! It's unimportant.

The only one who didn't run away from critical questions here was Other Tom who seemed unafraid to have these questions further examined in others ways such as in a civil suit. I think an attitude like his is refreshing. If more people were unafraid to critically examine the issues I would have less problems with this case. Instead all I see is a lot of running away. But justice and legal reality are not always the same thing, as I have seen from many other cases in the past, so this one case is not anything I will not hold on to.

[ohmyachingback]

Oy Sylvia,

If it's an explanation about the 20 minutes that vex you so much, maybe it's time you took it up with Crystal aka Precious. She has told so many different stories (according to the Atty Gen); those stories CAN NOT be verified......why do you believe it's up to the 3 players to provide you with answers? You talk about the 20 minutes as though it is an absolute certainty...the woman lied....these 20 minutes could just be another of the many lies she's told!!

The accuser had semen from 4 different men in or on her person and clothes.....none belonged to the players. She picked Reade
Seligman out of a photo line-up; he has an ATM ticket time-stamped indicating he wasn't at the house at the time of the "alleged" rape.

Precious is the one with veracity problems, not the accused.

[sylvia]

"these 20 minutes could just be another of the many lies she's told!!"

You are obviosuly are not that familiar with the facts of the case, and like many others are willing to make assumptions. The fact that the accuser was alone in the house is not due to the accusuer's words, it's due to the fact that Kim Roberts was seen by multiple people alone in her car for a period of time changing clothes. But I don't want to get started on this case again. We did that already.