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April 12, 2007

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clarice

It certainly does. And it overlaps with what I've been saying, the place is full of people willing to kill the Administration to curry favor with the Dems (and in the Plame case to get Kerry elected) for how dared they press for a full bore investigation w/out knowing that she was covered by the Act?
Now let's hope the Dow Jones & AP lawyers prevail in the Miller case and we get to see what Fitz concocted to cover this in that case.

clarice

It certainly does. And it overlaps with what I've been saying, the place is full of people willing to kill the Administration to curry favor with the Dems (and in the Plame case to get Kerry elected) for how dared they press for a full bore investigation w/out knowing that she was covered by the Act?
Now let's hope the Dow Jones & AP lawyers prevail in the Miller case and we get to see what Fitz concocted to cover this in that case.

Great Banana

What difference does it make now?

I'm sure we are going to see some indictments in the other leak cases that actually hurt national security any day now.

Or maybe, those operations did not involve anyone quite as "covert" as Plame was.

sylvia

Awwwww a Plame thread! I miss those.

Jeff Dobbs

As to whether he is really inventing these emails and Hayden's Gridiron chats, well, time may tell. But Novak's story certainly overlaps nicely with what I have been saying all along.


Hmmmmm, will be looking for Novak column source described as "a blogger intimate with this case".....

clarice

Get out the barf bags:
"Boulder-Former Ambassador Joseph Wilson, whose wife's status as a covert intelligence agent was leaked in a scandal that has embroiled top White House officials, told an audience here today to be active participants in government...he believes Plame's outing was an attempt at character assassination by Bush administration officials. "They would have succeeded in this, except for one thing," he said. "In embarking on a character assassination campaign against me, they committed treason."

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_5651500

sylvia

"Gen. Hayden, head of the CIA, prowled the Gridiron dinner telling people including Bob Novak, Victoria Toensing, and Rep. Peter Hoekstra that he had *not* meant to say that Victoria Plame was covert - he claims he used the word "classified" in his meeting with Waxman."

Ah hah! We were right all along. I guess the CIA is still trying to figure out whether trips such as Canadian seminars are considered covert foreign service.

You know I kind of understand this because I've been surprised in my life at the number of people who don't like to understand laws. Even higher-ups. They have an anathema against actually looking up the language of a law and interpreting it, and instead just like to repeat what they think someone told them was the law. So probably the CIA dude didn't even know it himself.

However, I still don't know if the covert issue is particularly relevant. If the CIA TOLD Fitz Plame was covert, even if it wasn't true, sadly that gave Fitz the probable cause to hound Libby. Unless it can be proven that Fitz was negligent on taking some steps to assurring for himself whether this was true ot not about Plame, but since he really wouldn't have access to this secret information, probably not. I don't know.

But at least WE all know now. This whole thing was an egg hunt.

sylvia

You know, I suppose it's possible the CIA gave the same vague language to the FBI they gave to Congress. In that case, maybe it's possible Libby would have a case of negligence there, as the FBI should be legally astute enough to follow that up to get a clear answer first. I would have to hear more facts first before I make up my mind on that.

Roger

Covert or classified is easy. Any federal employee can become covert and most are classified. If it's not the identity informant thing it's section 502 and CIA just moved to DoD. The move was planned by Hayden's predecessor and followed up by Hayden, all x Air force.

Walker seems to want some classified jobs at the White House
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/24/national/main1832057.shtml

Plame's goal was to use these acts and to launch a foreign intelligence operation against the US government and blame the murders on someone higher up claiming she was leaked. The Republicans hurt on the way were just to cover her as a foreign intelligence operation and blame politics.

The congressional affairs guy apparently is an idiot and another reason to cancel the charters like the others that are no longer what they were created to be and work for DoD now anyway.

CIA will never tell Plame's status and she will never claim the 'identities law', even those it's 'basic training' for anyone at CIA, because she was using a 'pattern' developed under Ames and not to be used against the US government, which she did using a foreign intelligence operation, which is a crminal conspiracy.

SunnyDay

WTF?? This is insane.

Sara

I'm sick of Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson and the whole Plame affair. It only serves to point out the paucity of thought and issues on the left that their two big items are Valerie Plame and ruining Don Imus, who is now fired from CBS radio as well as MSNBC. Yet, they don't give a damn about the damage they do by embracing the terrorists and jihadists. Stinks! Stinks! Stinks!

(Sorry posted this twice, once in the wrong thread)

PatrickR

The word of the day went from 'undercover' to 'covert':

------quote-----
...I was interrupted by a man crouching at my feet.... It was CIA Director Michael Hayden, who complained to me profanely that my column had misrepresented him in the Valerie Plame Wilson case. ...Hayden indicated to me he had not authorized Democratic Rep. Henry Waxman to say Mrs. Wilson had been a "covert" CIA employee, as he claimed Hayden did, but only that she was "undercover."

...Hayden made similar points with Rep. Peter Hoekstra, the House Intelligence Committee's ranking Republican; Republican lawyer Victoria Toensing, expert in national security law; and White House Counsel Fred Fielding. Yet, 10 days later, the CIA and its director asserted to me that the wife of Bush critic Joseph Wilson indeed had been "covert."

....

The confusion deepened when I obtained Waxman's talking points for the hearing. The draft typed after the Hayden-Waxman conversation said, "Ms. Wilson had a career as an undercover agent of the CIA." This was crossed out, the hand-printed change saying she "was a covert employee of the CIA."

Who had made this questionable but important change? Hayden told me Tuesday that the talking points were edited by a CIA lawyer after conferring with Waxman's staff. "I am completely comfortable with that," the general assured me. He added he now sees no difference between "covert" and "undercover" ....
------endquote-------

Enlightened

Huh? The talking points draft said one thing and CIA changed it to say another? After conferring with Waxman's staff? And Hayden is now ok with it?

Oh brother. The CIA has just proven without a doubt their disingenous, duplicitous and inept actions have fostered this charade. The trifecta of retardation.

SlimGuy

So we have still an issue of ambiguity.

Since during the Libby trial we have had to deal with the master clarity of a paint by number kit artwork would it matter if we get another picture now?

Even if someone today came out with full clarity and glossy 8X10's with circles and arrows and explanations on the back, it may change opinion, but it now has no bearing on the Libby issue.

Any appeal can only deal with the issues of the case presented at the trial however flawed.

Which I for one, consider a potential weakness in our form of legal process.

topsecretk9

Tuesday that the talking points were edited by a CIA lawyer after conferring with Waxman's staff.

IIRC a CIA lawyer screwed up a potential juror in Libby's trial AND Fitz didn't want to share some documents with Libby's team -again IIRC they were because he said the contained privileged discussions and "rationale" I believe between the CIA legal and DOJ in the early days) (I'll see if I can dig it up)

Anyways, the point is - seems like the problems/games are coming from the legal office...

Also from Roger's link:

The CIA also disclosed it has not yet completed a formal assessment of the damage to national security that may have been caused by Plame's outing in 2003.

The assessment won't be completed until a criminal investigation of the leak has been concluded, Christopher J. Walker, the CIA's director of congressional affairs, said in the July 19 letter to Lautenberg.

Um...it's been 4 years, tick tock...is it any wonder why the CIA has been wrong about just about everything now, they can't even figure out the status of their own employee.

Enlightened

"A written reply April 5 from Christopher J. Walker, the CIA's director of congressional affairs, said only that "it is taking longer than expected" to reply"

Hah. The CIA can take four YEARS to respond? Where's the outrage? The huffing and puffing?

How many times have we heard Waxman et al screeching for some answers in USAgate? The brewing RNC e-mails? The Dems are so utterly transparent. It's almost no fun anymore to point it out. It's so predictable that they will coddle their enablers - up to four years worth.

Bravo! Well done BDS Team.

PatrickR

The author of the Denver Post article has his e-mail address at the bottom. I've pointed out to him that this:

'Wilson gained widespread attention when he published an article in the New York Times nearly four years ago criticizing President George W. Bush for including in a State of the Union speech the claim that Iraq tried to buy uranium from the African nation of Niger. Prior to the speech, Wilson had been sent on a mission to Niger and debunked the claim.'

is factually inaccurate, and why.

danking

I'm surprised that Novak has held his tongue on Russert this long considering the treatment he got on Meet the Press.

Too bad Imus will never get to interview Mitchell, Gregory, or Russert again.

Forbes

This has become--or always was, depending on who was making the argument--a case of proving a negative, i.e. prove that Plame wasn't covert, as it is the assumption that won't collapse under the weight of (no) evidence.

And if it is possible to regularly show up for work at Langley and simultaneously be characterized as "covert" or "undercover," then the CIA is an even bigger joke than one could presume from this entire affair. (And notwithstanding the definitional particularities of the IIPA.)

And notwithstanding TM's perseverance on this topic, I imagine most people will have forgotten the underlying rationale for the Fitz investigation before the CIA ever gives a definitive answer.

SlimGuy

Off Topic

More alternate agenda diplomacy?


"Egyptian Daily: Democrats Invite Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood Leader and Muslim Brotherhood MPs to Congress," from the MEMRI Blog, with thanks to all who sent this in:

The Egyptian opposition daily Al-Masryoon reported that high-level diplomatic sources said that Muslim Brotherhood General Guide Muhammad Mahdi 'Akef, several members of his office, and Muslim Brotherhood MPs had been invited by U.S. Democrat congressmen to visit the U.S. next month and to speak to Congress.

Looking_For_a_Way_out

Hi Guys!

Just got back from my buddy's house.

I saw that Novak story and I knew it'd be a discussion item here today. Is Novak the most bitter man on the earth or what? Hayden is a "man crouching at my feet" who is "angling to become intelligence czar -- director of national intelligence -- under a Democratic president". But at least he's reporting the key fact, that the legal team at CIA felt using the term "Covert" to describe Plame's employment status was the most appropriate course of action to take.

I've speculated here in the past that IIPA prosecution would require the CIA to divulge information it would prefer to keep secret. Libby's lies, obstruction and perjury convictions provided a perfectly suitable alternative. This new information from Novak, changes nothing.

topsecretk9

--I've speculated here in the past that IIPA prosecution would require the CIA to divulge information it would prefer to keep secret. --

Yeah, like there is no damage at all to report or the embarrassment she violated CIA rules with her big glossy "here I am" Vanity Fair photo shoot?

Looking_For_a_Way_out

"Yeah, like there is no damage at all to report or the embarrassment she violated CIA rules with her big glossy "here I am" Vanity Fair photo shoot?"

Maybe no damage was done. I don't know. Do you think the CIA would publicize that damage if they didn't have to? The thought of that must be driving Novak crazy. I'd love to get the details that Fitzgerald provided to justify locking up Miller and Cooper. I don't know how that information will be treated by the courts. If it is classified information how would the "declassification" process work? Couldn't Cheney just instantly declasify it? That must also frustrate the heck out of Novak.

Syl

Looking

Your propaganda is no better than Wilson's. Hah! I hope you didn't lose too much money on your bid to have dinner with him.

Plame outed herself to INR which outed her to Armitage which outed her to Novak.

Cheney had nothing to do with it.

SlimGuy

By the time the pictures were taken, her name was already on the wires and every intel service in the world would already have done their homework on the name.

Only a clear face picture might have clued someone if she used an alias.

Looking_For_a_Way_out

Plame outed herself to INR which outed her to Armitage which outed her to Novak.

Cheney had nothing to do with it.

Posted by: Syl

Miller testified that Libby told her of Plame in June. Armitage is not relevant to that leak.

My Cheney comment refers to that information Fitzgerald used to justify locking up Miller and Cooper. Could Cheney unilaterally "declassify" that information? If it would exhonerate Scooter, why hasn't he?

As for Wilson, I have always questioned his role in this whole affair. I don't believe for a second that Plame was outed solely to besmirch Wilson.

Rick Ballard

"If it would exhonerate Scooter, why hasn't he?"

Libby wasn't charged for an IIPA or Espionage Act violation. Plame's status is as meaningless as she was, as you noted.

Other Tom

"I don't believe for a second that Plame was outed solely to besmirch Wilson."

Let's keep our eye on the ball here. If we want to know why she was outed, the person to ask is Richard Armitage. And for my part, I have never understood why the outing of Valerie "besmirched" Wilson in any way, and know of no one who has ever claimed that it did with the exception of Wilson himself and assorted leftist ho's.

And again, we are in the final stage of the Bush Oppression, and my hope is that from here on out the administration does it, gets away with it, and flips the bird to those who don't like it. Democracy in action.

SlimGuy

I find it interesting that some will come to a place which examined this place in the most detailed manner of any other venue on the web and wish to insert their mis information that will fly like a lead balloon.

MikeS

911, a monumental intelligence failure.

Iraq's WMD, a catastrophic intelligence failure.

In the case of Plame the CIA carried out either a teensy weensy intelligence failure or a totally insignificant intelligence failure depending how 'covert' Plame was at the time.

Enlightened

So if it was a "teensy weensy" or "insignificant" failure - why has it taken FOUR years for the CIA to definitively state Plame's status?

I'm not getting why that obstruction is less obstructive than some emails deleted years ago on a subject that at the time was a non-event?

I can't deal with the left's practice of twisting everything into a colossal mind f---k. By the end of the day their brain cell must really hurt.

MikeS

I can't deal with the left's practice of twisting everything into a colossal mind f---k.

I agree with that. I also agree with Cheney's suggestion to Leahy.

sbwaters

TM: The lefty bloggers *do* know her status, but that is a faith-based initiative.

You must mean a "half-faithed" initiative.

Rick Ballard

"By the end of the day their brain cell must really hurt."

My understanding is that the brain lacks pain receptors. Even if both of a leftist's brain cells were torqued to the max they wouldn't feel anything. They do get uncomfortable when a synapse fires but it doesn't happen often enough to be bothersome.

Enlightened

Ahah. So when their synapses get torqued, the need for ExLax decreases?

PeterUK.

"I don't believe for a second that Plame was outed solely to besmirch Wilson."

How does outing Val besmirch Wilson,he thought she was a stripper!

Tom Maguire

But at least he's reporting the key fact, that the legal team at CIA felt using the term "Covert" to describe Plame's employment status was the most appropriate course of action to take.

With Imus gone a spot in comedy has opened up.

Did the CIA really say that covert was "themost appropriate course of action"? Based on what?

Here is Novak:

Hayden told me Tuesday that the talking points were edited by a CIA lawyer after conferring with Waxman's staff.

Did the CIA guy push for "covert" as most appropriate, or did the Waxman team pound thr table until he said, sure, just keep the qualifier about CIA employment practice.

Here is what Waxman finally said, for non-link followers:

At the time of the publication of Robert Novak's column on July 14, 2003, Ms. Wilson's CIA employment status was covert.

What is her "CIA employment status" and how does that relate to her status under the IIPA? Who the heck knows?

But since we know that even now the CIA can't opine on her IIPA status for Rep. Hoekstra, it is hard to credit that the CIA felt it was most appropriate to call her covert - my guess is they gave in to the deliberate blurring sought by Waxman's side.

Bring better spin.

They do get uncomfortable when a synapse fires but it doesn't happen often enough to be bothersome.

LOL. I assume that is a theoretical prediction as yet untested.

sammy small

911, a monumental intelligence failure.

Iraq's WMD, a catastrophic intelligence failure.

Don't forget Sandy Bergler's docu-drama. That caper may ensure the intel will always be looked upon as failure.

lurker9876

This whole thing about CIA's behavior is so ridiculous. I just cannot believe that CIA would give in to the deliberate blurring sought by Waxman's efforts. Surely CIA had to be smarter than that...until that Michael said she was "covert".

And I keep seeing the double quotes around the word, covert.

What the heck does double quote - covert - double quote mean????

lurker9876

This whole thing about CIA's behavior is so ridiculous. I just cannot believe that CIA would give in to the deliberate blurring sought by Waxman's efforts. Surely CIA had to be smarter than that...until that Michael said she was "covert".

And I keep seeing the double quotes around the word, covert.

What the heck does double quote - covert - double quote mean????

lurker9876

Sorry for double post. :(

clarice

Gosh, TM, you're so cynical. Have you no faith?

cathyf
Miller testified that Libby told her of Plame in June. Armitage is not relevant to that leak.
Not true. Miller testified that someone other than Libby told her about Plame in June, and that she went to jail to protect that source, and that she doesn't remember who she went to jail to protect. Armitage would have been a very plausible suspect as the "forgotten" source. Another plausible suspect would have been a colleague of Plame who was also a source for Miller's book on WMD intelligence.

Anyway, please try to keep up with the facts in the future.

clarice

cathyf, I emailed your theory on "classified" to Bob Novak in the belief that (a) it is plausible and (b) he was in a better position that any of us to probe that path.

Foo Bar


Miller testified that Libby told her of Plame in June. Armitage is not relevant to that leak.

Not true. Miller testified that someone other than Libby told her about Plame in June

?? So the Post got this wrong?

Deliberately and sometimes defensively offering her account in Libby's perjury trial, Miller told the jury that "a very irritated and angry" Libby told her in a confidential conversation on June 23, 2003, that the wife of a prominent critic of the Iraq war worked at the CIA

clarice

Her notes revealed she had that information (Flame, etc.), including Wilson's name and phone number before she ever talked to Libby.

cathyf

1) The CIA has never claimed that Plame's affiliation with the CIA was classified in May, June or July of 2003. They claimed that her affiliation with the CIA "was classified under Executive Order 12958." Well, Executive Order 12958 was in effect between April 17, 1995 and March 25, 2003 -- so a close parsing of the CIA claim is that on one or more days between April 17, 1995 and March 25, 2003, Plame's affiliation with the CIA was classified, but they have not given us any information about her status before April 17, 1995 or after March 25, 2003.

2) The Executive Orders which have defined the classification system are specifically designed to protect Americans' civil liberties. They do this in several ways:

a) The burden is upon the government to clearly designate what information is classified and at what level. Information which the government does not so designate is not classified.

b) Classified information is only shared with people with appropriate clearances, but more importantly, it is only shared with people who have a need to know the information in order to do their jobs, either as employees or contractors of the government.

On Feb 19, 2002, Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson went to a meeting of an interagency task force. They disclosed the information that Valerie Plame was 1) a CIA manager, and 2) married to Joe Wilson, the "former ambassador" that the CIA was sending to Niger to check out yellowcake intel. No one at that meeting needed to know who Valerie Plame was or that she was married to the former ambassador for any remotely job-related reason. No one at the meeting or any time over the subsequent 15 months ever designated the information about Wilson's wife's CIA affiliation as being in any way shape or form classified. According to Executive Order 12958 and Executive Order 13292 (and all of the ancestor executive orders), the information about Plame's CIA affiliation was not classified after Feb 19, 2002 on these two issues alone.

And the direct custody of the unclassified information was
Valerie Plame & Joe Wilson ==>> INR guy
INR guy ==>> INR Report
INR Report ==>> Armitage
Armitage ==>> Novak
Novak ==>> newspaper

3) The executive orders are very concerned that government employees will attempt to hide their incompetence, mistakes, criminal behavior, etc. by classifying them. The executive orders make very clear that no matter what the bureaucrats stamp on the paper, if it's something that the executive order says can't be classified, then it's not classified.

According to various publicly available sources, Plame was paid under an "undercover" employment designation either as a result of agency inefficiency (they didn't get her moved into an overt employment category in a timely manner after she moved into an overt job), or was a result of the CIA hiding the fact that they had a person without qualifications to be a WMD analyst in that position. Either way, the executive orders are very clear that whether it was inefficiency or embezzlement that put her paycheck in the "covert" accounting category, according to the lawful orders of the people in charge, the information was not classified.

Imagine that a CIA agent lied about having a set of informants, and claimed that he needed money to pay them. Then he took the money and used it to bet on horses at the track, and made up the "informants'" information which he submitted. Whether he gets caught or not, this wouldn't make the results of the horse races classified information. The government has quite precise definitions of what makes something "classified" and getting paid for out of an account designated for "classified" activities is neither necessary nor sufficient.

Foo Bar

Her notes revealed she had that information (Flame, etc.), including Wilson's name and phone number before she ever talked to Libby.

Hmmm... if her notes clearly revealed that "Flame" was in there before she talked to Libby, then the Libby defense didn't do a very good job of establishing that sequence while Miller was on the stand. The best they could get out of her was that she could not be absolutely, absolutely certain that she first heard about Plame from Libby.

Anyway, I got the impression from cathyf's comment that she was denying that Miller testified that Libby told her about Wilson's wife in June. I guess not. I guess I misread it.

In any event, suppose Miller had first been told about Plame from some other source. If we presume there was something not OK (maybe not illegal, but at least sloppy) about telling reporters about Plame prior to the Novak column, would that first leak to Miller have then made it OK for Libby to tell her about Plame? I don't think so. It still comes down to not believing Miller when she says Libby told her about Plame on the 23rd.

Other Tom

"If we presume there was something not OK (maybe not illegal, but at least sloppy) about telling reporters about Plame prior to the Novak column..."

How about if we don't presume that?

topsecretk9

ACk...I couldn't read all the through so i could tourettes

But since we know that even now the CIA can't opine on her IIPA status for Rep. Hoekstra

WHY NOT? I mean at this point it boils down to a simple YES she was a covert agent covered under IIPA or NO she was undercover, but not covered under the IIPA. Period.

After four years and no damage assessment you'd think they could CONCISELY (an Intelligence agency mind you!) answer THIS simple question.

Sum Tang UP!
2 ways here

If the CIA who referred this to the DOJ found Plame being referred to as an agency operative even after affected agency was the one to confirm in a 6th paragraph column violated the IIPA - they would want since they referred this to the DOJ to produce even the most slight anything that would vindicate their having asked for it - given the rabid, tunnel vision focus of the media.

OR

the only reason the CIA would NOT vindicate themselves would be to protect themselves from something...

At this point, all I can wonder is what does Plame have on the CIA -and more importantly WHY? -- this is looking more and more like a blackmail situation by the minute.

I am pretty sure that the hiring of Wilson was a violation of her employment and probably of the CIA's - and I wonder too if the his security clearances (or how that went) is involved with this - but there is something weird here, because they will not give her the pleasure of being the one thing she wants either - or maybe doesn't want?

Also, is this idea is in any way true, it may be that Plame used illegal method to obtain the crap she holds over their heads - who knows.

OH...there is another Sanction buster busted....how did Plame miss this one so close to Boston, let alone her area of expertise?


Vt. Exporter Sentenced on Federal Charge

Andrew Huang, 60, of Cromwell also was ordered Tuesday to pay a $5,000 fine, said Kevin O'Connor, the U.S. attorney for Connecticut.

Huang originally was charged in May 2006 with conspiracy and acting as an agent of a foreign government, but reached a plea agreement last December.

He originally was accused of conspiring with Chinese officials to sell $27 million in telecommunications equipment to the Iraq government from 1999 to 2001.

The equipment allowed Iraq to maneuver its forces when the U.S. invaded the country in 2003, according to James Trainor, supervisory special agent for the FBI's counterintelligence squad in Connecticut.

Huang admitted in his plea agreement that he lied when he told an FBI agent in April 2006 that he had not represented or acted on behalf of a Chinese company in the sale of fiber optics equipment from China to Iraq.

"I was scared and nervous," Huang said at the time.

Huang, a lieutenant in the Taiwanese Air Force before arriving in the U.S. in 1976, was the president and owner of MacAndrews Inc., an export business in Middletow

Wasn't JCW international and Rockcreek in the "telecommincations" biz - well, we know William Jefferson was...Ironically fighting to have his emails et al privileged.

topsecretk9

if her notes clearly revealed that "Flame" was in there before she talked to Libby, then the Libby defense didn't do a very good job of establishing that sequence while Miller was on the stand.

If IRC she mummed up and twirled her finger for Bennett to step in any time they tried to!

To a jurors question she admitted she went to prison to protect OTHER sources.

cathyf
At this point, all I can wonder is what does Plame have on the CIA -and more importantly WHY? -- this is looking more and more like a blackmail situation by the minute.
Well, I can postulate another explanation. CIA employees have managed to convince their bosses that they have an obligation to "protect" Plame as a symbolic gesture to all of the other CIA agents. In other words, a "support the troops" gesture, where "betraying" Plame is made equivalent to betraying Johnny Spann's memory.
Foo Bar

If IRC she mummed up and twirled her finger for Bennett to step in any time they tried to!

Well, she was already on record in the NYT as saying that she couldn't remember when she wrote down Flame, so it's not as if she "mummed up" there; she just said she couldn't recall:


On one page of my interview notes, for example, I wrote the name "Valerie Flame." Yet, as I told Mr. Fitzgerald, I simply could not recall where that came from, when I wrote it or why the name was misspelled.

topsecretk9

b) Classified information is only shared with people with appropriate clearances, but more importantly, it is only shared with people who have a need to know the information in order to do their jobs, either as employees or contractors of the government.

After not being in Govt' employ for many years, are you convinced that Wilson had the required clearances he was supposed to have to a) carry out the mission"s" Plame says and B) to have been briefed on the material in the "meeting?

I don't.

(no secret i think it was inexplicable for the CIA to contract out work and forget the requisite confidentiality agreement to the contractors not matter if it were his National command Authorit-ness or batman sidekick Robin)

clarice

I have a simpler theory--No one wants to take responsibility for the dynamic duo or for the referral which was clearly based on fakery and for pushing Tenet to demand the DoJ proceed. In fact, fedora has told me in an email tonight that parsing Foley's denial that he was Plame's boss he was very careful and probably was only saying he was not her IMMEDIATE supervisor. Since he left the agency shortly after the Plame kerfuffle, I suspect people inside the agency blamed him.

topsecretk9

where "betraying" Plame is made equivalent to betraying Johnny Spann's memory

Good point. Make my heart sinks. Enough reports have indicated that WORKING CIA insiders have not been thrilled with Plame - and all was compounded with her betrayal in Vanity Fair...it's actually sick what she is doing.

Well, she was already on record in the NYT as saying that she couldn't remember when she wrote down Flame, so it's not as if she "mummed up" there;

Read the all celebrated, all important Emptywheel; transcript...this was her account. Miller "mummed" up - but if you'd like to contradict Emptywheel, I'll step to left - go for it.

topsecretk9

Actually...empty didn't use the WORD "mummed" up -- she used something different like "pursed her lips and hummed' or some such...And then she detailed Miller blowing her nose in a tissue...she detailed Miller as 'Hmmmm" uncomfortably -- and then twirled her pointer finger for her lawyer to step in - who is Bennett.

I thought you guys live and die by empty?

cathyf

Yeah, I read the Foley thing that way, too. In the real world, people often refer to anyone above them in a chain of command as their "boss". Also in the real world, people get "loaned" to other departments on an operational basis all of the time. Consultants, whether internal or contractors, often refer to the chain of command of the group that they consult for as "boss" and also the chain of command that are their formal supervisors as "boss". In many businesses, the customer is called the "boss". There is even a management fad called "matrix management" where everybody works for everybody. (I spent 7.5 years being an independent contractor / consultant to a group managed by matrix management. The best years of my career!)

But anyway, the Wilsons' point in the VF interview was that there was a group within the CIA which was resisting WH and OVP "intimidation" And the comment about Foley being Plame's boss was incidental to the claim that Foley was the head (or at least the spiritual leader) of the cabal, and Plame was a devoted follower. And the accusation resulted in Foley being forced out and taking a much lower status job. (Director of security at a DOE lab is a big step down from being a direct report to the DCI.)

What the Wilsons did to Foley was to presume to speak for him. Ask the Dixie Chicks -- people get pissed off about this. Really pissed off.

topsecretk9

I have a simpler theory--No one wants to take responsibility for the dynamic duo or for the referral which was clearly based on fakery and for pushing Tenet to demand the DoJ proceed. In fact, fedora has told me in an email tonight that parsing Foley's denial that he was Plame's boss he was very careful and probably was only saying he was not her IMMEDIATE supervisor. Since he left the agency shortly after the Plame kerfuffle, I suspect people inside the agency blamed him.

Posted by: clarice | April 13, 2007 at 01:00 AM


at this point what is their hang up then?

NO -

at this point Clarice, why wouldn't the Agency just trump up something to vindicate themselves, vindicate her, and make the inquisition on their part go away?

Foo Bar

My only point was that Miller addressed it in the NYT article.

I thought you guys live and die by empty?

Yes, of course, I hang on her every word, and I have a poster of her up on my wall, right next to my Che poster, and right above my bookcase containing numerous dog-eared Chomsky paperbacks.

topsecretk9

Foo

Next to your "Bush is Hitler and Cheney is Eichmen" poster, right?

sylvia

Well there is always the possibilty that Plame is a double agent for, say, France. Or maybe a triple agent, where say France thinks she's a mole but she's really feeding them bad intel. (Actually kind of like she did to us too, now that I think about it.) But maybe because of some Maxwell Smart type super-secret situation, the CIA doesn't want to reveal anything to us. That or more likely the CIA is just incompetent.

sylvia

And by the way, to repeat to those who don't know, this determination of whether Plame was covert or not is important for Libby's appeal. If he can prove that Fitz or the FBI did not take reasonable steps to find out if Plame was actually covert, I would think this would give grounds for a reversal of the conviction based on "prosecutorial misconduct". Prosecutorial misconduct is according to my law source Wiki is one of the main reasons an appeal is granted, so this could be one of Libby's best shots.

topsecretk9

Well there is always the possibilty that Plame is a double agent for, say, France. Or maybe a triple agent, where say France thinks she's a mole but she's really feeding them bad intel. (Actually kind of like she did to us too, now that I think about it.) But maybe because of some Maxwell Smart type super-secret situation, the CIA doesn't want to reveal anything to us. That or more likely the CIA is just incompetent.

Posted by: sylvia | April 13, 2007 at 02:15 AM

O Kay...DougJ.

Syl

OT

Read this little piece from MEMRI...

Sunni jihadi groups and al Qaeda fighting--with al Qaeda assassinating sunnis who won't join the caliphate.

I'll bet you big bucks the assassination in the Green zone yesterday was al Qaeda's doing.

Cecil Turner

It still comes down to not believing Miller when she says Libby told her about Plame on the 23rd.

Not sure why the 23rd matters more than, say, July 8th. And who knows what was said? It's a sure thing Judy doesn't, since she'd forgotten the whole conversation took place until rereading her notes.

In any event, there's no doubt it was more than a week after Armitage gleefully spilled the beans (on tape, no less), and more than a month after Plame and hubby met with Nick Kristof to discuss his Niger trip. (And was unrelated to the conversations that were eventually published by Novak.) Whatever Libby's involvement, it certainly had no bearing on the actual "outing" of Plame, and was long after the initial security breach.

Jeff Dobbs

Gosh, TM, you're so cynical. Have you no faith?

Posted by: clarice | April 12, 2007 at 11:09 PM


Well, it's no secret, I'm with Tom.

On a day when the Obamessiah -- sent to conquer cynicism -- comes out cozying up to the race-baiters in the Imus crap....my faith has been shaken...not stirred.

BarbaraS

Well, I can postulate another explanation. CIA employees have managed to convince their bosses that they have an obligation to "protect" Plame as a symbolic gesture to all of the other CIA agents. In other words, a "support the troops" gesture, where "betraying" Plame is made equivalent to betraying Johnny Spann's memory.

Another explanation is she is a member of a cabal within the CIA dedicated to bringing down the Bush administration and the other members are protecting that fact.

Another thing I would like to know is if Hayden is head of the CIA how come a CIA lawyer could go over his head and change something that went to congress without telling or discussing it with him. I know what would have happened to me if I had done such a thing to my boss. It would have been adios and don't let the door hit you on your way out. There is something fishy here......something else fishy that is, with this case everything is fishy.

cathyf
this determination of whether Plame was covert or not is important for Libby's appeal.
Yes and no -- I think it may be a bit of a red herring. The Comey-Fitzgerald charging letter (which we have speculated mirrors the CIA referral which Walton refused to show Libby's defense) did not mention covertness, it mentioned "release of classified information." Because of Fitzgerald's appalling violation of grand jury secrecy, we know that he spent lots of time/energy focused on Libby's role in the NIE declassification. That looks to me like a desperate search for some actual classified information that was released.

Notice that Fitzgerald plays this lawyerly game of steering clear of the whole "covert" question and just making claims about "classified." I think he may be playing the red herring game masterfully. By constantly re-fighting the IIPA battle, there is a tendency to grant the argument that Plame's CIA affiliation was classified. Well, I do not grant that at all. Both Joe Wilson and the SSCI told us about the Feb 2002 meeting that resulting in the INR memo, and both agree that during that meeting Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson did not treat Plame's CIA affiliation as classified. The CIA has been asked, and they have claimed merely that Plame's CIA affiliation was classified for at least one day between Apr 17, 1995 and Mar 25, 2003, and not answered the question about after Mar 25, 2003. Various public statements about Plame "transitioning to State" and about how her cover was blown by Ames to Russia in 1994 and by the Agency to Cuba later lead one to the conclusion that her CIA affiliation could not be classified because of one or more of the exclusions specified in Executive Order 13292 section 1.7 (a) (1), (2) and (4). (It's section 1.8 in Executive Order 12958.)

No one in the CIA, included Plame herself, treated Plames CIA affiliation as classified after Feb, 2002. The CIA's claim about her CIA affiliation being classified in the past do not address the period after March 25, 2003 at all. And when carefully parsed can mean merely that her CIA affiliation was classified up until the Agency blew her cover by referring to her in a letter that they forgot to stick in the diplomatic pouch. (Does anybody remember when that was? For some reason 1997 sticks in my mind.) Or perhaps they mean that her affiliation was only classified up until the day she disclosed it in the midst of committing adultery with a man married to someone who is/was a French spy. (That was 1997.) Note carefully -- the only people claiming that Plame's CIA affiliation was classified in May/June/July of 2003 are David Corn and Patrick Fitzgerald.

Toensing makes interesting and sophisticated arguments as to why Plame was not "covert" under the IIPA. The much more boring and unsophisticated argument is that Plame couldn't have been covert because her CIA affiliation wasn't classified.

sylvia

Well, again Cathy, I am no lawyer, however according to the legal education I gained recently from Wiki, it seems a prosecutor must have probable cause that a law has been broken before he investigates a crime. Or perhaps better phrased 'probable cause a crime has occurred'.

So perhaps I am not following this legally yet, but how can Fitz and Co just investigate the release of "classified information" when there IS NO law or crime that is just about releasing classified information? It would seem to me they would have to see if any conditions of a "crime" exists first, and any crimes related to this would fall under the IIPA act and the classified documents act, which are the laws they listed in the indictment.

If Fitz or the FBI knew from the beginning, or should have known, that there was no documents related to this case and that Plame was not covert, there are no elements to any crime existing. As there is no probable cause that a crime has been committed, this investigation should have been dropped right after those facts were determined. Hence Libby should never have been interviewd by the FBI, and the the fact he was was due to prosecutorial misconduct, the reason his appeal should be granted. But if my legal reasoning is off, feel free to correct me about this.

boris

No one in the CIA, included Plame herself, treated Plames CIA affiliation as classified after Feb, 2002.

According to BDS logic if her affiliation was ever classified it remains forever classified until it has been officially declassified. How the information is treated or disclosed is irrelevant.

"Ha Ha I'm classified, I can scam the MSM and run black ops against you and you can't say sh!t because I'm classified! Ha Ha"

sylvia

And just to have an Al Gore inventing the internet moment, I am glad to see this issue of Plame's covertiness is still alive, as this was an important issue for me for a long time now when many others didn't seem to think it was, and I will be glad to hopefully see this issue further catch on and possibly be a part of Libby's appeal.

cathyf

The problem, sylvia, as cboldt has pointed out, is that by refusing to notice that there is a question about whether something is illegal, the FBI and prosecutor can claim that they were acting in good faith. And as such they have just as much right to investigate "process crimes" committed in the investigation of not-crimes as in the investigation of a crime.

Whether our legal system really works that way appears to be in dispute. cboldt says that the "well we were trying to find out if a crime was committed and the witnesses testimony had to be truthful in order for us to do that" argument means that police and prosecutors can haul in and interrogate anyone at any time with no evidence that any crime has been committed.

clarice

The resolution of this issue will be helpful to Libby in a pardon process assuming as I do that the entire thing was a smoke and mirrors political hit job. OTOH if this smoke and mirrors extended to the Ct of Appeals in the Miller case, as I also suspect, I doubt the Court will be amused.

cathyf

I must confess that the most perplexing thing about this whole case is Fitzgerald's seeming free ride to make monkeys out of federal judges all the way up to the supreme court. Up until this point, there was only one legal principle which judges at every level and every political and legal pursuasion were completely unanimous on -- which is that playing judges for fools would be swiftly and brutally punished. How did Fitzgerald become an exception to that rule?

clarice

And why is OPR taking so much time to resolve my November complaint which included a request they look into the redacted material as it appeared on its face disingenuous? I think they are waiting until after the sentencing or the resolution of the Dow Jones suit. Just saying.

Rick Ballard

The CIA attorney[s] who made the change to Hayden's statement are probably the same ones who drew up the referral. They created the IIPA illusion and have a very vested interest in maintaining it. Would anyone care to bet that the referral does not contain the word 'covert' used in the non-IIPA sense?

Declassifying the referral to might prevent Fitzlaw from spreading - it might even get Fitz's sorry ass fired for the lies he told Tatel.

clarice

Yes.

Off topic:The other day was making fun of the comparison to getting a man on the moon to enacting energy policy. IBD has a great editorial today which shows how the political obeisance to corn growers (ethanol subsidies and tariffs on ethanol imports from Brazil) will increase food prices w.o substantally diminishing our dependence on foreign oil.

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=261267432163968

SunnyDay

Hayden will do a Q&A on C sapn sunday evening. Shall we call in??

SunnyDay

C Span


doh

Charlie (Colorado)

So if it was a "teensy weensy" or "insignificant" failure - why has it taken FOUR years for the CIA to definitively state Plame's status?

Never neglect the possibility that it's simple incompetence.

'without qualifications to be a WMD analyst in that position.'

The lead up to the Iraq war was the selling of the CIA covert WMD program at CIA for all operations officers. The UN weapon inspectors(Bolton) went along with CIA that there were no WMDs and this is where CIA chose to leak. The 'inevitable' Bush war in Iraq was part of the deal; maybe it was Rice's degree and her 'close' relationship to Bush (affair) that was not liked or the fact that they all had to go to university to study WMD. Anyway, the CIA sold it off, started the war with intelligence, and Plame showed up as a WMD specialist in Iraq and Iran. Wilson protests war CIA started. The covert CIA WMD program was leaked and near Rice's visit to Russia the person who figured out the university training from Rice was assassinted for 'private contracts,' retired from FSB. Later, all the Presidents of the Universities that taught the WMD program for CIA operations officers were hired by CIA through Bush because of the leak of the program.

One day. Plame was classified for one day. Gee, I didn't meet her, did anyone else? As far as Ames, most operatons officers were leaked. The Cuba thing was just a retired operations officer acknowledging that she was blown like everyone else.

Plame's mistake would have been to investigate Ames. How was Ames caught? It's classified. Finding a possible dupe and requesting a file that was created with the investigation in mind would have been a mistake. It would have been known she was working where she was told not to investigate. Her pattern('I was blown' under the intelligence/informant identity law) follows the method used to arrest Ames. She is obviously doing a 'get even' for Ames. Why? Careers get lost fast in intelligence and she knew this. She got sold out and Ames went to jail. Using the method that was used on Ames just tells us she had knowledge of a file and a method, which she used against the US government. Aside from just being non professional, Russians might wonder if this is a 'friend' or CIA might wonder if 'that is what she is saying.' The only real conclusion is that she committed treason using a method that was classified to prove a point(yes, Russians would notice this very closely). Most intelligence agencies and Russians were frustrated by the method and only backed off when the 'how' was sold off. The five year law. After Plame showed up for one day, she got a file, she drove by waiving the file; the Russians showed up. So did some other including 'friendlies.' So, those were just saying they already knew Plame. Plame was saying she knew who and how. The answer was a dupe and dead end. It just put more people in the same position they were with Ames: a bunch of spies from all over the world showing up and getting 'caught.' Plame's excuse would have been this, but that's how Ames was arrested.

Plame was known the day she showed up, putting all the dupes in more trouble the same as Ames did. So, who authorized Plame to get the file and start another counter intelligence operations? DIA's answer was simple. Leave and don't come back. Plame's goal was to sell off the Ames dupes and since then she has 'outed' or sold off other in the intelligence community in Iraq - this could really have been the only goal when she 'investigated' Ames. Bottom line, she was willing to pay off the Russians and other intlelligence services with what she thought was the person(s) involved. These were dupes, and the method was how Ames was arrested. She used this later.

French spy? Affair? Who was that? France would just lead her back to the past. She would have already known who and the information might be interesting, but not worth adultery. I don't think her use of the Ames arrest memthod can be justified.

The inteligence identities act may not be as important as Section 502 and, following the Ames pattern we are all back at DoD, DIA like the CIA analysts. It brings the Plame use to a nice circle. The only problem is that if you follow the Ames pattern as Plame has, you end up with a counter intelligence operation that appears to have the CIA penetrating DoD, DIA/NSA, just like Ames was arrested. Plame basically wasted her career on investigating Ames and Americans and the US government has ended up paying. CIA just penetrated DoD using the method to arrest Ames. I guess it was important for Plame to feel she vindicated herself and, perhaps Ames; but the reality is that she committed treason with the intent of 'outing' some dupes and this has been followed through by her with the assassinations or outings in Iraq. Plame, in the end, hasn't vindicated herself, but has made America pay for her treason that, for some reason, she refuses to acknowledge to herself.

Wilson is the son of a diplomat(CIA) from Spain where he grew up. Plame is the daughter of an Air force/NSA. Legacies.
Ames was PC and so is Wilson and so where some dupes; which makes Plame REAL SCARY;
the leaks after Plame claimed she was leaked kind of look like 'pay' for the Ames fun and stuff. The real answer is treason and the pay is there.

TSK9. CIA has basically ceased as an intelligence service. Congress tried to cancel the charter and when this was not allowed, CIA was moved to DoD by the Directors, all x Air Force. The real question is what damage CIA will do at DoD...

cathyf

So much for typepad registration. Even the off-their-haldol nutcases can figure out how to post anonymously...

MikeS

Was that a movie treatment?

Jeff Dobbs

cathyf:
So much for typepad registration. Even the off-their-haldol nutcases can figure out how to post anonymously...

I blame Bush Friday the 13th.

Sara

CIA: HAYDEN SAYS MEDIA LEAKS PLUGGED...

By David Morgan

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - CIA Director Michael Hayden is claiming success at stopping media leaks from the spy agency under his predecessor, including revelations of secret prisons for terror suspects.

An in-house policy of open communication between Hayden's office and the agency's workforce has effectively reduced employee frustrations blamed for prompting unauthorized disclosures in the past, the four-star Air Force general said in a C-SPAN interview to be aired on Sunday.

"In my confirmation hearing, I talked about getting the CIA out of the press as source or subject. And I did that," Hayden said in an interview transcript released on Friday.

"The preceding 12 months, it was almost daily that the agency was in the paper and very often being criticized unfairly," he said.

Hayden took over the CIA in May 2006 after former CIA Director Porter Goss who resigned. Goss had a difficult tenure of less than two years that had followed intelligence lapses over Iraq and the September 11 attacks on New York and Washington.

Congressionally mandated intelligence reforms that created the new job of intelligence czar also were blamed for eroding the CIA's status among espionage agencies and undermining employee morale.

One of the most controversial media leaks occurred in November 2005, when the Washington Post reported that the CIA was operating a secret overseas prison system for terrorism suspects including senior al Qaeda members captured in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Continued...

clarice

Heck, he's so stupid he doesn't know the difference between undercover and covert and we're supposed to take his word for this?

clarice

**Um I mean "classified" and "covert" of course*********8

cathyf

Actually, I think either formulation is accurate. He doesn't know the difference among undercover, classified and covert.

Sara

Would super dee duper naive be a better description than dumb? If you follow the continued link, it says this is part of his CSPAN call in interview mentioned upthread.

Cecil Turner

Actually, I think either formulation is accurate. He doesn't know the difference among undercover, classified and covert.

I maintain that in common usage, they are synonyms. Only the IIPA has a different definition, and that is something for a court to decide, not a CIA ruling.

clarice

Why do you suppose Waxman pressed the CIA lawyer to give him the word "covert" except to blur the distinction between CIA parlance and the very different meaning of the IIPA? And why do you suppose that having said something else, when told about the shift in language he asserted there was no difference?

windansea


Hayden says he's plugged media leaks at CIA
Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:34pm ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - CIA Director Michael Hayden is claiming success at stopping media leaks from the spy agency under his predecessor, including revelations of secret prisons for terror suspects.

An in-house policy of open communication between Hayden's office and the agency's workforce has effectively reduced employee frustrations blamed for prompting unauthorized disclosures in the past, the four-star Air Force general said in a C-SPAN interview to be aired on Sunday.

But Hayden said in the 57-minute interview scheduled to air on C-SPAN's "Q&A" program that he owed his success to an internal e-mail system that allows CIA employees to air grievances directly to him.

"I get lots of e-mails every day. And we answer them," he said.

Asked about the status of Goss' leak investigation, CIA spokesman Mark Mansfield said the agency's policy is not to comment on internal security reviews "that may or may not be taking place."

move along...nothing to see here now that we have our super duper suggestion box operating

clarice

"Former White House aide I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby said Friday he no longer plans to ask for a new trial in the CIA leak case but still expects to appeal his conviction.

Libby, the former chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney, was convicted last month of lying and obstructing an investigation into the 2003 leak of CIA operative Valerie Plame's identity.

Requests for new trials are seldom granted. In documents filed in federal court Friday, Libby's lawyers said they will mount their arguments before an appeals court rather than asking for a new trial as they had planned.

During Libby's monthlong trial, attorneys disagreed with several of U.S. District Judge Reggie B. Walton's decisions, including allowing prosecutors to present evidence to the jury that Libby's defense team viewed as prejudicial.

Libby faces a likely sentencing range of one to three years in prison when he is sentenced June 5.

If attorneys can persuade Walton that they have a strong case on appeal, it could increase Libby's chances of remaining free while the appeal plays out. It would also give President Bush more time to consider a pardon before Libby must report to prison"
Former White House aide I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby said Friday he no longer plans to ask for a new trial in the CIA leak case but still expects to appeal his conviction.

Libby, the former chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney, was convicted last month of lying and obstructing an investigation into the 2003 leak of CIA operative Valerie Plame's identity.

Requests for new trials are seldom granted. In documents filed in federal court Friday, Libby's lawyers said they will mount their arguments before an appeals court rather than asking for a new trial as they had planned.

During Libby's monthlong trial, attorneys disagreed with several of U.S. District Judge Reggie B. Walton's decisions, including allowing prosecutors to present evidence to the jury that Libby's defense team viewed as prejudicial.

Libby faces a likely sentencing range of one to three years in prison when he is sentenced June 5.

If attorneys can persuade Walton that they have a strong case on appeal, it could increase Libby's chances of remaining free while the appeal plays out. It would also give President Bush more time to consider a pardon before Libby must report to prison
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070413/ap_on_go_pr_wh/cia_leak_trial_2>Appeal

BarbaraS

What does that mean? Those poor, poor CIA (government employees) were unhappy with the way things were goint. Poor babies probably being forced to produce and having to answer questions. They were so unhappy they decided committing treason was justified? These people need to get out into the real world and get a life. Out in the real world people worry about losing their jobs and not having a pension. These clowns don't have to worry about this. Hell, they don't even have to worry about working. And, as we all know, they no longer have to take a civil service exam to get their jobs. There is no telling how many truly stupid people work for the government.

topsecretk9

Thanks for the comment to me Posted by: | April 13, 2007 at 01:42 PM

I sure wish I could understand it.

------

Have been reading up on Ames though -- here is a sidenote portion of the IG report on him...

Foreign National Contacts and Marriage

37. Ames also did not fully comply with Agency requirements in documenting his relationship with Rosario. He never reported his intimate relationship with her as a "close and continuing" one while he was in Mexico City. Management was aware generally of a relationship but not its intimate nature and did not pursue the reporting. He did follow proper procedures in obtaining approval for their marriage. However, Agency management did not accept or implement properly the CI Staff Chief's recommendation at the time that Ames be placed in less sensitive positions until Rosario became a U.S. citizen.

Didn't Plame make some sarcastic crack about not having to tell the CIA who she was or that she was marring or some such?

I thought I recalled they had procedures for this and I also believe they have special procedures for spouses who work together.

topsecretk9

BarbaraS

Yes, isn't that disgusting - well already know the place is a mental ward - now we learn they are a bunch of spoiled brats who defy their oath and leak when they're mad? Babies is right.

lurker9876

So the Team Libby have to convince Judge Walton that they have a strong case of appeals before Judge Walton decides whether to allow the case to go forward?

cathyf
I thought I recalled they had procedures for this and I also believe they have special procedures for spouses who work together.
I read a memoir once of a CIA wife. Her husband worked in a series of Latin American embassies under official cover. In real life, the whole family, including kids, were collecting intelligence. It reminded me of the status of a pastor's family in an evangelical church, or the rabbi's family in an orthodox Jewish community -- dad's job meant the whole family's job.
clarice

No, Lurker. The article states his counsel will have to persuade J Walton that he has a strong grounds for appeal in order to remain out of jail pending the appeal.

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Wilson/Plame