Immigration Men

The NY Times explains the new immigration deal.

A summary of key points is here, but let me fair-use it:

Highlights of proposed immigration legislation:

1 — Undocumented immigrants who came to the United States before Jan. 1, 2007 — an estimated 12 million — would get immediate, but probationary, legal status and ability to work and travel if they pass background checks.

2 — Undocumented immigrants and their families could get new "Z'' visas good for four years, but renewable indefinitely, by paying a $5,000 fee per head of household. After eight years, holders of Z visas could apply for permanent legal residence — a green card — by returning to their home countries and paying another $4,000 penalty.

3 — Between 400,000 and 600,000 foreigners would be able to come every year to work. They could stay for two years on new "Y-1'' visas then return home for one year and could renew the visas for a total of six years in the country. They could bring their families with them for one two-year period.

4 — New Z and Y visas would not take effect until the Department of Homeland Security had met new border security and immigration enforcement conditions, including: expanding the Border Patrol to 18,000 agents; constructing 200 miles of vehicle barriers and 370 miles of fencing along the border; deploying four unmanned aerial vehicles and 70 ground-based radar and camera systems along border; establishing a secure identification system to verify workers are eligible for jobs.

5 — Employers would have to use a new electronic system to verify new hires are eligible for work within 18 months. Three years after that, all employees would have to have ID verified through the new system.

6 — The current green card system would be replaced by a new point system, with applicants getting credit for English proficiency, job skills, education and family ties. Spouses and children of U.S. citizens could still qualify for unlimited number of green cards. Parents of U.S. citizens could get up to 40,000 green cards per year. Spouses and children of permanent legal residents could get up to 87,000 green cards per year. About 380,000 green cards would eventually be issued via point system.

7 — Total number of green cards issued per year would be about 1 million, same as current law.

8 — Agricultural workers could get new Y-2A visas good for 10-month stays in the United States every year.

9 — Undocumented immigrants under 30 who came here as children would be eligible for green cards within three years.

I like the spirit of point 4, which requires at least a token effort at enforcement prior to adopting the new visas.  It would be nice if the conditions included a requirement that the enforcement be shown to be working. 

And I very much wonder why illegals, sorry, undocumenteds would not flood into the country starting now, before the expanded enforcement is in effect, so that they are here and ready for their "Z" visa when the fence is finished.  Unlike the immediate temporary pass noted in point 1, which requires a presence here before Jan 1 2007, the "Z" visa (as described in 2) seems to be open to all.  Is that an oversight that ought to be fixed, or (more likely) is it merely a problem with the summary?  My guess/hope - the "Undocumented immigrants and their families" mentioned in point 2 includes the Jan 1 2007 caveat from point 1, but that was dropped for the summary.

Also - $5,000 is a lot of money, we will hear.  And what happens to those who get the temporary pass described in (1) but can't afford the "Z" visa?  Do we deport them?  As if.

Comments

[Other Tom]

Millions of brand-new Democrats.

[Paul]

How can there be anything that wrong with the bill when both Arlen and Teddy are in favor of it?

[clarice]

I do not think anything will be acceptable to voters without closing the border first.
No matter whatever "good" provisions are included in this Bill, our administrative operations are unable to handle the present burden and I am certain will be unable to handle this.
It would be a good idea to require everyone in Congress to cut out their jaunts overseas and spend one week a year living with a middle class family and one week a year in an INS office.

[Pofarmer]

The Fort Dix Six had something like 75 arrests between them. Did I mention that at least 3 of them were illegal? Any background checks never revealed their status. And I'm to beleive that our govt will do background checks on 12 million illegals in this country, many, or most, on forged documents?

How many manhours would that take?

But never mind that. How long till the first Z Visa is counterfeited? You know the price will be just somewhat less than $5,000.

What a joke.

How stupid do these Senators think we are? Or, more pertinently, how stupid are they.

If you want to stop illegal immigration, make it illegal to hire them. Make it mandatory to check SSN's yesterday. Today it's illegal for an employer to question an SSN. If an employer is hiring illegals, fine the hell out of em. If they can't work, and don't have access to our welfare system, they'll self deport.

[Barry]

Perhaps someone could explain to me what republicans *think* they get out of this politically. Not only do the democrats register millions of new voters, the republicans lose me. Me is not a great loss, but there will be millions like me.

I simply do not get it. This whole "border security" and new administrative functions are just BS. They have no intention of stopping the flood and are incapable of anything administrative on this scale. It is nothing more than smoke designed to obscure what this is, amnesty for those who broke in.

I guess I'll have to write in Clarice for everthing from dogcatcher to President.

[clarice]

Barry--name your price.

There are some things we need to address. We need transient farm workers and occasional resort workers and some highly skilled tech workers to meet the demand. We really do, unless someone quickly develops machines to pick fruits and veggies and clean hotel rooms, etc.

And there is no reasonable prospect of a mass deportation of the approximately 12 million illegals already here.

We are the world's champs at assimilation but there is a limit and the balkanization of people today and the demand that we not assimilate these numbers (along with a far more generous welfare system than was in place at the turn of the last century when we had our last great immigration flood) make it harder to imagine we can really do this.

But I'd listen with an open mind to all that ONLY AFTER we close the southern border and put in plae a credible internal security system and INS processing system.

BTW I've read that this Bill is 1000 pages and no one will even see it until the vote.
No way is that acceptable.

[Barry]

I'm with you. Close the border and THEN we can talk about the illegals here. I write from the home country for many of the illegals. I have traveled to Mexico for 25 years. I have many friends and business associates who are Mexican. Believe it or not, they sympathize with the U.S.A. and understand that illegal is illegal.

I'm not interested in mass deportation. Solve the problem that results in so many breaking in. We can go from there.

[Uncle Pinky]

I just want a look at these tamper-proof ID cards and, say, a decent print shop.

The RFID chips for the new passports are already easily cloned.

All the politicians keep yammering about biometric ID's as if they were completely secure.

Newsflash: politicians, especially those test-driving new buzzwords that they don't know the definitions of, are buffoons.

Love laughs at locksmiths, and so do burglars after a week to study the new tech. Counterfeiting may take up to a month.

[Sue]

but there will be millions like me.

Ditto for me.

I will support the nominee that makes the loudest noise about this, even if that nominee is Tancredo. At the moment, one of my senators, Cornyn, is safe with my vote. I hope he holds firm.

[ajacksonian]

Actually this should be called: The Forgery Full Employment Act as it will drive thousands of individuals to organized crime to get forged documents 'proving' they have been in the US before 1/1/2007. Isn't that going to be grand? INS and Homeland Security cannot handle the influx of false documents used NOW and this proposes to make it nearly impossible to check and verify them...

Say, whatever happened to the actual and real classical liberal values espoused by those that created the Nation? Where government rules by consent of the governed? That people come together to create such governments and have their sovereignty as a Nation respected? Good, old fashioned 18th and 19th century liberalism, that... guess today's 'classical liberals' don't want to deal with classical liberalism but something else... And we had best be warned about what happens when the Rights of the governed are abused by government, too. Lots of warning from those folks on that way back when.

[Jeff Dobbs]

Sue:
I will support the nominee that makes the loudest noise about this, even if that nominee is Tancredo. At the moment, one of my senators, Cornyn, is safe with my vote. I hope he holds firm.

This situation seems perfectly set up for Fred.

Make one of them videos with the down-home-forget-the-high-fallutin'-stuff-let's-talk-some-common-sense saying this is BS. And hell, let him literally use the word bull sh*t...bleep it but then let a bootleg copy surface mysteriously later with the unbleeped word.

[Sue]

What makes anyone believe that the government will enforce the new law? They failed to enforce the old law.

I suggest we start a grassroots movement to impose monetary penalties to congresscritters for passing laws that are not intended to be enforced to begin with. Make it substantial. $500,000 per congresscritter.

[boris]

The dimorats are masters at creating new laws that looks "good" on paper but are gauranteed to be unenforcable and make the problems worse rather than better. Which is blamed on Republicans by them and the MSM so therefore new taxes on the rich are required to clean up the mess.

[windansea]

this is a great bill if you live in Mexico and want it to be less crowded here.

prepare to be overwhelmed

[Sue]

I'm not sure what it means, but I just sent a fax to Senator Cornyn thanking him and showing him my support for his stand against the proposed amnesty bill. It went right through. I sent another fax to Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison that took almost an hour to go through. She supports the proposed bill.

[Sue]

I believe I just found my candidate. Duncan Hunter.

[Sue]

http://www.gohunter08.com/shownews.asp?artid=42>Duncan Hunter on Immigration bill

The Senate’s decision to blatantly ignore the Secure Fence Act signed into law last year and only require construction of 370 miles of fence, as opposed to the 854 miles mandated by the law, is a dramatic failure of this legislation.The San Diego border fence has proven that fencing works.The time has come to quickly implement the Secure Fence Act, not retreat from its mandates.

See? A perfect example of where we should penalize with their pocket books congresscritters who ignore the laws they pass.

[Jeff Dobbs]

Tough, principled stand? Or is Fred just pandering to get Sue's vote?

I report, you decide.

Fred via NRO from his ABC gig:

No matter how much lipstick Washington tries to slap onto this legislative pig, it’s not going to win any beauty contests. In fact, given Congress’s track record, the bill will probably get a lot uglier — at least from the public’s point of view. And agreeing to policies before actually seeing what the policies are is a heck of a way to do business.

We should scrap this “comprehensive” immigration bill and the whole debate until the government can show the American people that we have secured the borders — or at least made great headway. That would give proponents of the bill a chance to explain why putting illegals in a more favorable position than those who play by the rules is not really amnesty.

[Jeff Dobbs]

You're slooooooow Lowry.

Fred Thompson [Rich Lowry]

He is obviously best positioned to tap the conservative outrage over the Bush-Kennedy amnesty deal, and apparently is going to do it. A big boost to his proto-campaign.

05/18 12:31 PM

Vs

This situation seems perfectly set up for Fred.

Posted by: hit and run | May 18, 2007 at 10:08 AM

Though I still think he needs a video a la his Michael Moore smackdown to really tap into the outrage.

[clarice]

I love Fred. No handlers. No pollsters. No beauty parlors.But he reads the net, knows his people and can *bless him* communicate clearly.

[Pofarmer]

We need transient farm workers

I must respectfully call bull sh*t on that, sorry. The humongous megafarms need transient farm workers. If they weren't there, you might see some food prices raise, you'd definately some shifts in industry structure that would be, in my opinion, wholly positive. The whol farm worker argument is a ginormous straw man.

[Pofarmer]

And we had best be warned about what happens when the Rights of the governed are abused by government, too. Lots of warning from those folks on that way back when.

That's why the second ammendment was put in there.

[topsecretk9]

I have an interesting observation -- I just returned from my youngin's school carnival/open house night.

The six graders all did these really amazing sculptures using material they and the teachers swore to secrecy about. In any event, they were very interpretive and the children were then to paint these wild shapes any way they deemed and write a paragraph about it. They were either inspired by what the shape looked like (one was a fabulous duck wearing a pink shirt for example) or nothing to do with shape at all (rainbows and flowers adorned a wavish looking object or a boy painted his one color and said "I don't know what it is") (my son's said his was his uncle's leather chair)

BUT there were at my count 5 "ethnic" out 60 and they were all of the Mexican Flag.

I thought this was interesting since many of the classes contains a variety of "immigrant" children, most notably Asian and even a few "stan" countries.

I am not exactly sure if it means anything, but I did think...Mexican's don't seem to be the immigrants wanting to assimilate.

[topsecretk9]

Pofamer --

--I must respectfully call bull sh*t on that, sorry. The humongous megafarms need transient farm workers. If they weren't there, you might see some food prices raise, you'd definately some shifts in industry structure that would be, in my opinion, wholly positive. The whol farm worker argument is a ginormous straw man.--

While I suspect you might be right, I do think acknowledging cheap labor is needed - otherwise no one would be outsourcing to places like india etc. etc. - for American trade to be competitive.

also, I am conflicted. On the one hand I am not excited about a free-for all - but I am encouraged that the illegals here will be "documented" for and accounted for (i guess the ones that don't go to get legal - the reason's are obvious) and therefore can be monitored.

But- admittedly - that's in a perfect world where government employees actually do their job. (that's sorta not fair - but the truth hurts - bad lazy apples always ruin it for the rest)

[Pofarmer]

but I am encouraged that the illegals here will be "documented" for and accounted for

The folks that are here now are "documented". They just have forged docs. Chances are, not much will change in that regard.

otherwise no one would be outsourcing to places like india etc. etc. - for American trade to be competitive.

Would you rather have slums here or slums in India??

I pick India.

[TerryeL]

If people kill this compromise things will only get worse.

But I think the hardliners will do just that and then the Democrats will use it against Republicans in the next election. After all, how did hanging tough work for the Republicans last time?

I agree we need tougher border security and I think the Republicans should negotiate for more, but let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. The Democrats actually made some concessions here.

And anyone who thinks the need for ag workers is a strawman does not know what he is talking about. I was a farmer for years and there is no way Americans will do this work unless they are using a machine to do it. And food is perishable. Like it or not, that is just a fact and if you think people are upset about the price of gas, just raise food prices and see what kind of reaction you get.

Of course they could just move food production out of the country and we could import it like we do oil. That's a good idea.

">http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion/baroneblog/archives/070518/the_immigration_3.htm?s_cid=rss:site1"> Michael Barone has an intersting fact filled post up on this.

And I think people should remember that the border has been open for more than a century. The politicians are not the only ones responsible for this. Regular people hire these people, not just big farms or meat packers and if there was not some degree of complicity on the part of the population as a whole we would not be in this position today.

George Bush never hid his support for guest worker programs. He has always been proimmigration. It was not as if he became president and then did a 180 on this. If people want a guy like Tancredo, then nominate him. His national poll numbers might suck but at least you would be honest about what you want.

BTW, I read that Fred Thompson was taking some flak for a piece he did at Pajamas calling for bipartisan cooperation. Well folks like it or not this is what bipartisan cooperation means, compromise. And it should be remembered that Republicans lost their majority after their temper tantrum last summer on immigration. I know people don't like this, but the voters did not go right, they went left.

[Jane]

The biggest problem I see at this particular moment is how they are rushing the bill thru - 1000 pages with no time to read it (not like the Congress reads anything, but some people do.) It looks like they are pulling a fast one.

[Cecil Turner]

Seems to me the biggest problem with the bill is that it will encourage more illegals.

I know I'm not with the majority on this one, but I support a general measure that will legalize most of the illegals currently living and working in the country. I don't think it's feasible (nor desirable) to deport the lot of them, and having them continue as illegals breeds both crime and the long-term social problems associated with an underclass.

That said, the process needs to be onerous enough to discourage a new influx. And the applicantion process ought to be dependent on time of residence (and recognize those who've made a stable life in the US) . . . rather longer than since January, I'd hope. It also needs to be attractive enough that people will sign themselves up for assimilation and eventual citizenship (and Steyn is persuasive that the Z visas are too sweet).

[Rick Ballard]

"It looks like they are pulling a fast one."

That's cuz they're pulling a fast one. It won't get through the House as is unless a number of the newly elected "moderate" Dems are dedicated to serving a single term.

A workable compromise involving a steeper initial hill to climb for illegals might get through - if the enforcement issue is made primary rather than secondary.

[JM Hanes]

TerryeL:

Corrected link for Michael Barone. :)

[JM Hanes]

I thought the bill was some 300+ pages not 1000? Either way, however, even bill that takes 300 pages to lay out is a mostly a bonanza for the legions of lawyers it will take to explain it -- in multiple languages, of course.

I read somewhere that Chertoff sees using the newly designated 18,000 in additional manpower to concentrate on tracking terrorists & drug dealers, not, in fact, for increasing our presence at the border to control the general influx of illegals. I can't fault his priorities on the homeland security front, but along with reductions in the previously mandated fencing and provisions which may, in large measure, circumvent the border security triggers, it doesn't look like we can expect much actual tightening up along the borders themselves.

Barone opines that:

Kyl got concessions from Kennedy that are intended to shift the flow of immigration from family reunification to high skills--a useful course correction, in my view.

The benefits of reducing the scope of family reunification seems obvious. But can anybody tell me why attempting this purported high-skills "correction" makes any sense when the obvious, primary catalyst for illegal immigration is the existing demand for low skill/low cost labor?

[clarice]

I can't jmh. Worse--do you seriously believe that we won't be anecdoted to death in the press if this should pass about how the new law is breaking up familites? There will be continued pressure to allow them to remain.

And then, as others have noted today, Z visa applicants will not have to pay back taxes..something in the original draft.
Also, the already overburdened bureaucracy has ONLY 24 hours to deny a z visa for cause. Imagine 20 million applications being filed and having to be processed in this kind of timeframe? And what will we do with those who never apply ?(I.e., they have criminal records or prefer to operate under the radar for whatever reason).Steyn thinks there are plenty like this.

[Pofarmer]

but let's not throw out the baby with the bath water.

That would be passing this bill, not the other way around.

[Pofarmer]

A workable compromise involving a steeper initial hill to climb for illegals might get through

How will that work? Any hill sufficiently steep just invites more lawbreaking, aka, counterfeiting.

How about this.

ENFORCE THE EXISTING LAWS.
ENFORCE THE SSN'S.
ENFORCE BUSINESSES NOT HIRING ILLEGALS.
MAKE IT MANDATORY FOR THEM TO CHECK THAT ANY HIRE IS LEGAL BEFORE THEY RECEIVE SINGLE CHECK.
DENY OUR WELFARE SYSTEMS TO ALL ILLEGALS.

In other words.

REMOVE THE DAMN INCENTIVES FOR THEM TO COME HERE.

THERE IS NO NEED FOR THIS NEW FRICKIN LAW!!!

[Pofarmer]

TerryeL

I'm a farmer right now. A sole proprietor. Why should I be forced to compete with third world illegal immigrants working for humongo Family Farms Inc.?

The answer is, I shouldn't.

Cutting out the illegals would force some structural changes. The way our systems work, I doubt you'd even notice it in prices. It would actually encourage more innovation and participation in American Agriculture. Something that is sorely needed. I don't get too exciting seeing 90' planters when there aren't another dozen young farmers in my entire county.

[Pofarmer]

Oh, and one other thing. I could give a sh*t less about the busted up families of people who are here illegally. If they don't wanna bust up the family, they can stay where the hell they are. These folks have absolutely no right to be here, none, zip, nada. Anything we give them or do for them is from the goodness of our heart. My goodness has about run dry on this issue.

[M. Simon]

So the thing is after a while you will not be able to get a job unless you are in the data base.

Suppose the data base error rate is a rediculously low .01% Say we have 150 million workers in the economy. That is 15,000 people without a job. You think you won't hear about that?

Suppose the error rate is still an excellent .1% That would be 150,000 who will be involved in straightening out their records. Evidently they will be unable to work while the mess gets straightened out. The newspapers will yell.

Now let us get into the real world where 1% error rate is considered very good. That would be 1.5 million.

Or suppose the data base meets pretty good government standards. A 10% error rate. 15 million unemployed. Yep. The program is working.

Suppose the error rate is as good as the IRS does when calculating taxes. That would be a 30% error rate. 45 million people screaming at the top of their lungs.

In utopia this will work. In the real world?

Give me a break.

And the people who lose their jobs because of this mess? Well I have no sympathy for them. There is no right to work in America.

Oh, and one other thing. I could give a sh*t less about the busted up families of people who get caught up in this bureaucratic nightmare. If they don't wanna lose their jobs, they can work in the underground economy where government controls do not exist. These folks have absolutely no right to a job, none, zip, nada. Anything we give them or do for them is from the goodness of our heart. My goodness has about run dry on this issue.

You either get a government permit to work or get a job in the illegal economy. There is no right to work in America without government permission. Can't get government permission? Starve.

That will fix the damn illegals for sure. No doubt sacrifices will have to be made. For the greater good.

[M. Simon]

You know this immigration bill is so bad that I will not vote for another Republican ever.

I don't care if we lose the war against the islamofascists as long as we have an immigration problem and the Republicans are in any way behind it they will never get my vote.

BTW any one know where I can get a copy of the Koran cheap? I prefer to be prepared.

==================================

Are you folks insane?

[Pofarmer]

Not Insane.

Let's enforce our borders.

Let's take care of the problem.

Explain to me how this bill does that.

Explain to me how Illegal aliens are not a parasite on the system.

[M. Simon]

Pofarmer,

If we quit voting for Republicans and the islamofascists take over I guarentee you they would know how to fix these problems.

A few hundred thousand beheadings is all it would take.

========

However, there are a few things we could do while we wait for the islamics to run the government the way it should be run.

First - if you are not in the government data base no job.

Second - if you are not in the government data base no medical care.

Third - if you are not in the government data base instant deportation to Mexico.

Fourth - internal passports. You will work and live only where the government allows. That could eliminate sprawl, too! Another modest benefit. Plus it would allow the police to instanly check to see if you were in the wrong place. Checking people's papers should be routine and frequent. Papers not in order? Instant deportation.

====

What about potential government screw ups you ask? Sacrifices must be made.

Once the government controls the country, laws will be enforced and honest citizens who are in the government data base will have nothing to fear.

===

With the country on lock down crime should disappear.

===

Of course illegals are a parasite on the system. With unemployment already above 4% if we sent 12 million Mexicans and their women and children to Mexico the job outlook for the unemployed would be greatly improved.

[clarice]

Of course, we could try to get millions of Americans to cross over into Mexico and start demanding benefits and the right to live wherever we chose to without compliance with their far stricter immigration laws.

Worth a try--there's some gorgeous country there.

[Pofarmer]

M Simon

Why all the hyperbole and handwringing?

Why is it somehow wrong and Draconian to enforce the system we already have set up? Heck, this whole borders thing is so, 20th century.

For starters, if a SSN shows up with 45 different names attached, let's figure out who it actually belongs to. The other 44 can get bent. Very simple.

Who ever said stop voting for Republicans? I never did.