From yesterday's USA Today:
Plame called on to explain varied accounts
WASHINGTON — Former CIA officer Valerie Plame should explain "differences" in her various accounts of how her husband was sent to the African nation of Niger in 2002 to investigate reports Iraq was trying to buy uranium there, the vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee said.Plame's differing versions have furthered "misinformation" about the origins of the case that roiled official Washington beginning in July 2003, said Sen. Kit Bond, R-Mo. Plame gave those accounts to the CIA's inspector general, Senate investigators and a House committee in March.
A February 2002 CIA memo released last week as part of a study of pre-Iraq-war intelligence shows that Plame suggested her husband, former State Department official Joseph Wilson, for the Niger trip, Bond said. That "doesn't square" with Plame's March testimony in which she said an unnamed CIA colleague raised her husband's name, Bond told USA TODAY.
Here are Plame's three versions of how Wilson was sent to Niger, Bond said:
•She told the CIA's inspector general in 2003 or 2004 that she had suggested Wilson.
•Plame told Senate Intelligence Committee staffers in 2004 that she couldn't remember whether she had suggested Wilson.
•She told the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee in March that an unidentified person in Vice President Cheney's office asked a CIA colleague about the African uranium report in February 2002. A third officer, overhearing Plame and the colleague discussing this, suggested, "Well, why don't we send Joe?" Plame told the committee.
CIA officials have been unable to verify Plame's March version, Bond said. Paul Gimigliano, a CIA spokesman, said the "public record on the matter is extensive, and, at this point, I can't add anything to it."
Byron York had lots over the weekend (1, 2, 3, 4), including this memo from Ms. Plame which she currently claims does not constitute her recommendation of her husband for the Niger trip:
The report forwarded below has prompted me to send this on to you and request your comments and opinion. Briefly, it seems that Niger has signed a contract with Iraq to sell them uranium. The IC [Intelligence Community] is getting spun up about this for obvious reasons. The embassy in Niamey has taken the position that this report can't be true — they have such cozy relations with the GON [Government of Niger] that they would know if something like this transpired.
So where do I fit in? As you may recall, [redacted] of CP/[office 2] recently approached my husband to possibly use his contacts in Niger to investigate [a separate Niger matter]. After many fits and starts, [redacted] finally advised that the station wished to pursue this with liaison. My husband is willing to help, if it makes sense, but no problem if not. End of story.
Now, with this report, it is clear that the IC is still wondering what is going on… my husband has good relations with both the PM and the former minister of mines, not to mention lots of French contacts, both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity. To be frank with you, I was somewhat embarrassed by the agency's sloppy work last go-round, and I am hesitant to suggest anything again. However, [my husband] may be in a position to assist. Therefore, request your thoughts on what, if anything, to pursue here. Thank you for your time on this.
The new Senate report is here. Not a lot of MSM coverage of this Plame angle yet (or probably, ever) - here are the UPI/Wash Times and the TPM Daily Muckraker. The TPM notes the story and tells us that NBC News also has it.
MORE, eventually...
CRYPTIC: CHS on perjury. BS. JK?!? OMG - ROFL. EPU'ed.
MORE: This is quite an impressive aggregator for the Plame commentary, even if it does put me near the top.
LESS CRYPTIC: Patterico notes that "the idea that [Fitzgerald] should have dropped his investigation as soon as he “found out Valerie Plame wasn’t covert” just took a pretty big hit." Well, OK. Jeff, posting at firedoglake, has an expanded version of that argument:
[Fitzgerald's new filings mean] that, whatever Toensing herself or anyone else thinks about Plame's covertness, those pursuing the investigation determined that she was covert under the statute. (And note that Fitzgerald told the Court of Appeals in August 2004 that his attorneys from the USA office in Illinois had participated in analyzing the relevant statutes.) And the basis for this judgment is no great mystery, now that Fitzgerald has released the unclassified summary of Plame's post-2001 CIA career and cover history. Fitzgerald prepared it in response to an order from Reggie Walton back in June 2006 to give to the defense, after Walton determined that the disclosure of the classified materials bearing on Plame's CIA employment would cause serious if not grave damage to national security, a substitution for that classified material.
Interesting - a document prepared by Fitzgerald in June 2006 is now the basis for Fitzgerald's assertion that "[I]t was clear from very early in the investigation that Ms. Wilson qualified under the relevant statute (Title 50, United States Code, Section 421) as a covert agent"? How does that work? Wouldn't it be a bit more convincing if Fitzgerald could demonstrate that some research into Ms. Plame's status had been done and a good faith determination had been made in 2003, or at least, "very early in the investigation"? By June 2006, Fitzgerald was well aware of the challenges being made to his investigation.
Oh, well - I have more fulminations on this point in the "MORE" addendum to yesterday's post, but let me recycle it:
...just how strong was the good faith determination that Ms. Plame was covered by the statute? Did the DoJ run their opinion past CIA Counsel, or anyone? Or did they calculate that it was in their interest to assume the statute was relevant and simply proceed, figuring they would do the work to justify charges under the statute only if more facts emerged to support a charge? In his Oct 2005 press conference Fitzgerald did spend a lot of time on the improbable claim that investigators investigate facts, not statutes, and only open the statute books after the facts are in. Made no sense, but that was his position then. Now we are supposed to believe it was "clear from very early in the investigation", and presume they did the work to support it. Work the CIA Counsel has yet to complete. Hmm.
Well. IMHO, the original investigators did proceed in good faith, confident that until they had established some basic facts they could not rule in or out charges under the IIPA, the Espionage Act, or maybe something else.
And Fitzgerald? In a video tape of comments he made after Libby's trial, he essentially admitted he was handed a perjury case and ran with it. Which is fine. But spare us the posturing.
Posted by: cathyf | June 01, 2007 at 04:06 PM
Posted by: cathyf | June 01, 2007 at 04:24 PM
GWB put forth a 5-point plan, what three or four years ago ...
This is true. It's been a contentious divisive issue whenever it gets discussed on the right.
In retrospect it would have been better to get a program with more enforcement during the Republican congress. IMO enforcement only conservatives made that difficult or impossible.
If they can stop this bill, that might be a good way to get a better one. Putting up with some static seems like a small price to pay considering how much they have produced (over time) on the issue. (Not here though, I got banned at another site for causing a reactive firestorm by simply suggesting W's original plans combined with a good fence would alter the incentives in a positive fashion.)
Posted by: boris | June 01, 2007 at 04:35 PM
"I actually and truly believe that Bush will be regarded as a good if not great president because he had the guts to face our enemies."
Had Churchill been PM in 1936 and mobilized the Brits (and French) to react to Hitler's move on the Rhineland with sufficient force to put Herr Hitler out of business for good in a short sharp fight, would his greatness be recognized today?
The potential for damage to the US from the use of asymmetrical methods of warfare still remains unacknowledged within the general population as does the fact that the Koran is Mein Kampf presented over a longer time scale.
Nobody gets much credit for effective prevention - something that didn't happen is hard to measure. IMO, the President's historical ranking is dependent upon his future actions wrt Iran. Iraq and Afghanistan are points of metatastisis, the actual cancer loci are in Qum - and Mecca.
Posted by: Rick Ballard | June 01, 2007 at 04:40 PM
Now you are being pedantic. She wrote the memo, wrote (oops, drafted) the cable, and convened the meeting. And lets not forget the helpful phone call that Joe Wilson made to Walter Keinstenner, the then Deputy Assistant Sec. of State for African Affairs. How is it a distortion to say “she was involved in the decision to send him”? And nice shot, being involved and making the call…who sent him? Who signed the travel orders (oops, that’s right Mr. National Command Authority was only reimbursed for expenses-plane ticket, meals, maybe a few trinkets-and didn’t have to sign a non-disclosure agreement)? Seems no one really wants to say how the mission was planned. Valerie Plame Wilson was involved in the genesis of the mission, the execution of the mission, and after he returned, the debriefing. She was a GS-14, right she had no “authority”.
You must not have been following the story closely. Joe was sent (funny after Plame offered up his name) in Feb 1999. This always seems to get lost. Also the remaining of the sentence shows that [redacted] pursued the “separate Niger matter” using liaison-so maybe [redacted] had second thoughts on Joe’s tea sampling abilities. And this matter is an unknown: Valerie recommended Joe for the Feb 1999 trip and the Feb 2002 trip, why am I skeptical that she had no role in the Feb 2001 trip.
Still being pedantic: the ellipsis are part of the original. The sentence is: “Now, with this report, it is still clear that the IC is still wondering what is going on…my husband has[…]” She is reciting her husband’s bona fides because as she says, she “may be in a position to help.” The only thing redacted was the “separate Niger matter” [probably AQ Khan] and the names and offices in the distribution, which was probably done as she was writing the memo.
"her 13 Feb cable distributed to the larger IC and FS community"
Where did you get "distributed to the larger IC and FS community?" This is what Bond told us (p. 212) about that cable: "Mrs. Wilson drafted a cable that was sent overseas requesting concurrence with Ambassador Wilson's travel to Niger." Since when is "overseas" translated as "to the larger IC and FS community?"
And the cable’s distribution was…or from the SSCI, July 04, page 39
Its not a either or thing: she wrote the 12 Feb memo, she drafted the 13 Feb cable, AND she convened the 18 Feb meeting. It is appropriate to say she was involved in the decisionmaking to get Joe Wilson the trip, and she got what she wanted. And why get spun up over it, it wouldn't be illegal, because nepotism laws wouldn't apply. I still don't get why it is an argument that Valerie Plame Wilson wanted Joe to go to Niger and he went, even after the current US Ambassador to Niger didn't see the point (and prevented him from talking to then current officials).
RichatUF
Posted by: RichatUF | June 01, 2007 at 04:42 PM
Here's something interesting:
I've always thought that this was all about getting Cheney, Rove, Bush, and Libby just happened to get in the way, or, if there was any particular reason for Libby to be a target, it was because of the Marc Rich pardon. But this makes me wonder -- Libby was on the crew that uncovered the monumental incompetence of the FBI counter-espionage clown show, and that was the department that was in charge of the investigation at the beginning.Posted by: cathyf | June 01, 2007 at 04:45 PM
Clarice:
"but there is more..a bizarre waying of thinking"
I know what you're trying to get at here, because Fitzgerald is not corrupt in any ordinary sense of the word. "Overzealous" & "ruthless" spring easily to mind, but they don't really capture or explain the impassioned recklessness at the heart of Fitzgerald's prosecutions.
I used to get stuck wondering how Fitzgerald justifies cutting legal (and truthful!) corners to himself. Other people are quick to excuse such excesses, and can even come to admire them, because they believe Fitzgerald is genuinely out to get the bad guys. I believe that's true myself. I'm sure he sees himself that way, and I do think that's what drives him, rather than the crass political ambitions of an operator like Nifong -- or the complex ambitions of an Eliot Spitzer. In fact, a comparison with Spitzer would be telling in inumerable ways, although I won't linger on that here.
Fitzgerald is a slightly twisted Eliot Ness in this picture, replacing tax evasion with obstruction. He really believes that prosecution for perjury is the moral equivalent of prosecuting an underlying crime, which is why he can quote Judge Tatel in his own defense -- sock puppetry notwithstanding -- sans irony. In FitzWorld, extremism in pursuit of justice is no vice, and the law is a tool in that pursuit. If he needs to use a hammer as a pry bar, or a wrench as a brickbat, or argue specious precedents, so be it.
What makes Fitzgerald uniquely dangerous, however, is that he trusts his own instincts absolutely, when he shouldn't. I suspect that the people who surround him were attracted by his zeal and came on board already inclined to trust his instincts too.
Fitzgerald knows who the bad guys are -- and any witness who won't give those bad guys up is, by definition, on the wrong side of the law. Unfortunately, perhaps because he's got no life, he seems as likely to be obtuse as perceptive. When your instincts are well-honed, you put the Gambinos out of business and make Merrill pay for their sins. When they're not, Fitzgerald's fundamentally intuitive approach to law leaves a trail of Libby's, and a corruption of the process that will take other victims, in its wake.
Posted by: JM Hanes | June 01, 2007 at 04:55 PM
This is about bashing Bush and about how a far right whiny wing of the party wants THEIR INTERESTS and the hell with what happens to the Party or the next election as a result.
You have it all figured it out, don't you? And to hell with anyone who disagrees? I don't have blind support for either party. I am neither Republican nor Democrat.
Posted by: Sue | June 01, 2007 at 05:06 PM
In FitzWorld, extremism in pursuit of justice is no vice, and the law is a tool in that pursuit.
I think you are right. He said almost that in the interview with his school paper. If the law is unclear, he had to determine what it should say. He is the determiner.
Posted by: Sue | June 01, 2007 at 05:09 PM
Some here may want to consider looking into a career in Dramatic Writing.
I've never been disappointed by the ability of Right-wingers to Appeal to Extremes in an entertaining fashion, and there really could be some money in it if pursued professionally.
Posted by: Cycloptichorn | June 01, 2007 at 05:20 PM
Don't the lefties wonder why her superior (and the CIA) who planned the Niger mission, accepted the suggest of Joe Wilson as a suitable candidate and then signed off on the mission hasn't all these years ever even leaked and come to her rescue?
And since they haven't why?
Yeah Rich, especially since this is the very excuse Wilson used to justify why the CIA picked him out of a hat for Niger 02...
It's really sad they have to diig in so deep to prop up these truth challenged shysters in order to keep them heros.
Posted by: topsecretk9 | June 01, 2007 at 05:21 PM
" In 1998, Mr. Libby served, practically on a full time basis for over half the year, as the Legal Advisor to the House Select Committee on National Security, known as the Cox Committee, which uncovered the theft of U.S. military secrets (including nuclear weapons technology) by the People's Republic of China."
In his memoir, Louis Freeh does not let Weng Ho Lee off the hook and definitely implies that the guy was guilty. Freeh ran it up Janet Reno's flagpole and she did not salute.
Posted by: glasater | June 01, 2007 at 05:25 PM
Sue, I don't have it all figured out, I just happen to like the President's 5-Point Plan proposed in May of 2006 and I still like it. I live on the border and I think the President's plan is still the best proposed so far:
Your way and the Noonan way is either give us our way or do nothing and destroy the man who really wants to do something. Doesn't work for me or do I think it works for the majority of Americans.
Posted by: Sara | June 01, 2007 at 05:25 PM
Yes, jmh, that's pretty much the way I see it. And if you read the daily reports of the Conrad Black case he did the same stuff there. Exactly. He has not proved one single criminal act on the part of the defendants; he misunderstood cCanadian commercial law and accounting rules, he gave immunity to a serial liar who was completely destroyed on the stand. OTOH in Ill the feds have an over 98% win rate and somehow he got into the record the defendant Black's lavish life style so that the gum shewing proles in the jury will hate Black as much as the Democratic partisan jurors in D.C. hate the Administration.
OTOH don't underestimate private ambition entirely. There's a premium for prosecutors who act quickly to indict, who don't "waste time" on preliminaries like is this illegal?, who creatively bend the law as he does and who master the craft of obstruction counts when no real crimes can be proven.
He's utterly a creature of (dare I say it?) the post-Giuliani prosecutor as political rising star phenomenon.
Ask Anduril when he shows up?
Posted by: clarice | June 01, 2007 at 05:28 PM
Smells like a Fitzy hit job alright
a few other defendants are as well.
Posted by: topsecretk9 | June 01, 2007 at 05:33 PM
Clarice:
"OTOH don't underestimate private ambition entirely"
O.K. I'll concede something between crass and complex. :)
Posted by: JM Hanes | June 01, 2007 at 05:34 PM
Cathyf said:
"I've always thought that this was all about getting Cheney, Rove, Bush, and Libby just happened to get in the way, or, if there was any particular reason for Libby to be a target, it was because of the Marc Rich pardon. But this makes me wonder -- Libby was on the crew that uncovered the monumental incompetence of the FBI counter-espionage clown show, and that was the department that was in charge of the investigation at the beginning"
Hmmm. Makes you wonder.
I wonder why Russert and NBC are trying to railroad Libby as well.
Posted by: Enlightened | June 01, 2007 at 05:36 PM
Lady Sara:
I oppose the current immigration package for a lot of reasons, but it was hardly unexpected. I had to laugh when I checked in on Hot Air yesterday. Half the comments sounded like Andrew Sullivan when Bush came out for the federal marriage amendment.
Posted by: JM Hanes | June 01, 2007 at 05:40 PM
Some here may want to consider looking into a career in Dramatic Writing.
Already working on it Cyclo. My son is in the biz and we are collaborating on a new comedy bit. It’s kind of a modern “Who’s on First” based on current news events.
The main character, Polyphemus, insists that VP Cheney is guilty of a crime though Polyphemus is not yet sure what that crime is. Our hero is incensed that no one has come forward with proof or even an allegation of this crime.
… It goes on and on and on like that.
Posted by: MikeS | June 01, 2007 at 05:41 PM
I hope I'm not duplicating. Best of the Web at OpinionJournal leads with a Plame item. Here's the meat of it:
Put that in your covert pipe and smoke on it a bit. Or, put that in your pipe and smoke it covertly. Whichever.
Posted by: anduril | June 01, 2007 at 05:43 PM
"six years, one month and 29 days of overseas service"
Assuming contiguous overseas services and referring to Joe's autobiography, they moved back to the states in 1997...then Valerie spent 1992 to 1997 overseas.
Other than that, if non-contiguous...what the hell does it mean?
Posted by: lurker9876 | June 01, 2007 at 05:49 PM
Don't forget to add in the part where Libby goes to jail to yer story there Mike. It's the dramatic turn in the third act which will provide the necessary atmosphere for the Sturm and Drang.
Posted by: Cycloptichorn | June 01, 2007 at 05:49 PM
If that is what Fitz used in his sentencing document, nowhere does it say that Plame was covert.
Posted by: lurker9876 | June 01, 2007 at 05:51 PM
Don't forget to add in the part where Libby goes to jail
Then it would be a tragedy not a comedy!
Posted by: MikeS | June 01, 2007 at 05:56 PM
MikeS, it would be a tragedy because it could happen to Cyclo just as it is happening to Libby and Conrad. It happened to Booker as well. So this is going to affect all of us.
There will never be a fair trial after these two trials.
Hopefully, Conrad would end up being acquitted or his trail declared as mistrial.
Posted by: lurker9876 | June 01, 2007 at 06:00 PM
If it happened to Cyclo, it would be irony.
Posted by: MikeS | June 01, 2007 at 06:03 PM
Don't miss this bit from Taranto re Plame's suit against the CIA:"On this point at least, the CIA's position seems indefensible. On the other hand, we hate to see Mrs. Wilson be rewarded any further for her ghastly taste in men. As Henry Kissinger said of the Iran-Iraq war, may both sides lose."
Posted by: clarice | June 01, 2007 at 06:05 PM
Don't forget as we established a week or so ago during the discussion of drama queen Comey's performance--Libby was the point man on getting the NSA approval from DoJ; Comey named all the people he was feuding with about the program EXCEPT Libby on whom he'd just sicced his buddy Fitz.
Posted by: clarice | June 01, 2007 at 06:07 PM
MikeS, maybe that is the only way to help Cyclo to understand the implications of these two cases but I don't have much hope.
Clarice, link?
Thanks!
Posted by: lurker9876 | June 01, 2007 at 06:08 PM
"Don't forget to add in the part where Libby goes to jail to yer story there Mike. It's the dramatic turn in the third act which will provide the necessary atmosphere for the Sturm and Drang."
Isn't it funny how desperate TruthOuters are to have Scooter sent to jail - still bed wetting over the 21 indictments coming down, and the ellusive sealed v sealed.
Being in front of the news cycle and ending up lose/lose could be detrimental to the brain trust.
Posted by: Enlightened | June 01, 2007 at 06:09 PM
There will never be a fair trial after these two trials.
Now, this is what I mean when I talk about Appealing to Extremes. Seriously.
You may want to turn down the hysterical hyperventilation dial just a tad there, Lurker.
Posted by: Cycloptichorn | June 01, 2007 at 06:09 PM
I was thinking about that, Englightened. Cyclo appears to be just as desperate as the Truth-outers. It's the only thing that gives them a win. They will go, "Nyah, nyah, nyah!"
I don't think remanding or sentencing Libby will be a compromise to anyone.
Problem is that...in five years' time, someone like Schumer writes a letter to an AG requesting a runaway SP. "Starr-Fitz" is appointed and ends up charging Cyclo for perjury and obstruction of Justice without an underlying crime, then "Starr-Fitz" plays the sentencing game introducing evidence that was not allowed during the trial.
Sure, this can happen to a very dedicated public servant like Cyclo.
Yupper, MikeS can write something like that.
Posted by: lurker9876 | June 01, 2007 at 06:14 PM
lurker--you mean the Taranto bit?
http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110010156>bad taste in men
Posted by: clarice | June 01, 2007 at 06:14 PM
Thanks, Clarice! Much appreciated!
Posted by: lurker9876 | June 01, 2007 at 06:24 PM
Happy to be able to fetch it for you.
Posted by: clarice | June 01, 2007 at 06:30 PM
Lurker: Or you mean in 3 years when Mrs. Bill Clinton is CIC and testifies under oath what is/is? Or testifies 100 times "I don't recall", I don't know", I have no recollection".....etc etc.
Ring around the Rosey....
Speaking of Rosie - Did anyone see that photoshop going around of her with her head embedded on Khalid Sheihk Mohammed sitting on the bed in his undies with all that hairy fur all over him? I think it was over at HotAir. Sometimes you CAN make it up! :o)
Posted by: Enlightened | June 01, 2007 at 06:31 PM
I am flabbergasted to find out I hate Bush as much as the moonbats do. Good thing I stopped and got some bourbon on the way home.
Posted by: Jeff Dobbs | June 01, 2007 at 06:31 PM
anduril...
...It [a CIA letter to Plame re retirement benefits] said that Ms. Wilson had worked for the government since November 9, 1985, for a total of "20 years, 7 days," including "six years, one month and 29 days of overseas service.'...
Interesting: assuming 2.5 years for training[sorry no links]...
Training: Nov 85-May 88
US-Embassy Athens: May 88-??92 [Chicago Sun Times]
London School of Economics 1992-(93?)94 [VF]
Interesting, that no one has pulled any class photos or grad school work. I would think this would be easy enough to confirm.
College of Europe (93?)94-(94?)95 [VF]
Same as above: she says she was in a 1 year program in International Law (interesting the College of Europe is co-located with the United Nations University)
"returned to the US in 1997?" seems to me that she has a gap somewhere from 1994 to 1997: if the VF article is accurate (a big if) regarding her CV and if the time in school would count as being overseas, she had to be doing something between as early as 1994 to 1997. I don't have the VF article handy, and am too lazy to look it up right now. I thought in the VF article it said that she came back to the states in 1995 and only traveled overseas thereafter.
So confused, so much speculation...
RichatUF
Posted by: RichatUF | June 01, 2007 at 06:35 PM
Dude, I practically got the link to the vanity fair article memorized.
Posted by: Jeff Dobbs | June 01, 2007 at 06:37 PM
MikeS:
"...it would be irony."
LOL!!
Posted by: JM Hanes | June 01, 2007 at 06:38 PM
...It [a CIA letter to Plame re retirement benefits] said that Ms. Wilson had worked for the government since November 9, 1985, for a total of "20 years, 7 days," including "six years, one month and 29 days of overseas service.'...
Well, can't we discount the dates of her pregnancy, post partum, leave of absence and stay-at-home momness?
I rather doubt she was overseas in a covert postion during that time.
Posted by: Enlightened | June 01, 2007 at 06:39 PM
Enlightened and MikeS,
Oh, to make Ms. Bill Clinton testifying about her domestic wiretappings in June 2007? And what else?
Oh, what will be one of her first steps? Oh yea, fire all of the US Attorneys that are Republicans and replace them with the Democratic US Attorneys.
And guess what...will she and her own AG be testifying for the so-called incompetent firings of the US Attorneys?
looks like you two got a good story going.
Posted by: lurker9876 | June 01, 2007 at 06:41 PM
Of course, that "jimgilliam" site is the one I always use because it comes first in google...
If you want the real deal...here it is
Posted by: Jeff Dobbs | June 01, 2007 at 06:42 PM
Oh, don't forget that Cyclo just became a very dedicated public servant working for Hillary's new Vice President.
Posted by: lurker9876 | June 01, 2007 at 06:44 PM
Can't we further discount the dates Joey boy was world-travelling? I mean, did she just let the nanny take care of the kids while dad was tea-sipping and she was being
covert-i?
Are covert agents allowed to leave their children on the continent while they traipse about all covert-like? What if she was killed during her covert-i-ness? Wouldn't the little smidgens be in danger? Weren't they in total danger while she was all covert-like?
I still think there is going to be a sealed v sealed blockbuster in her book about the PLAME v WILSON surname = covert.
Let's figure it out and ruin her book.
Posted by: Enlightened | June 01, 2007 at 06:45 PM
Oh, don't forget that Cyclo just became a very dedicated public servant working for Hillary's new Vice President
I'm thinking 'sitcom'?
Posted by: MikeS | June 01, 2007 at 06:46 PM
Ok. Wait. The CIA is already ruining her book.
And her husband already ruined her reputation.
Pfftt. Book's already a loser.
Posted by: Enlightened | June 01, 2007 at 06:48 PM
See? I knew some good could come out of the wacky conspiracy theories y'all have been dreaming up around here.
Can't wait for Tuesday! The Dramatic Climax. It remains to be seen whether or not the dénouement will be interesting, however; much of that depends on you, my friends. Don't let me down.
Posted by: Cycloptichorn | June 01, 2007 at 06:50 PM
from the WSJ...
If the CIA was working within fitztruth "an honest-to-goodness administrative error" would have to be treason. The CIA must be working from the "covert, maybe?"™ sheet music composed by the Plames
RichatUF
Posted by: RichatUF | June 01, 2007 at 06:55 PM
Oh, I'm sure that Libby will spend time in prison. I'll be surprised if Libby gets no time in prison.
New phase in the sitcom...
Cyclo spends time in prison for something he did not do.
Posted by: lurker9876 | June 01, 2007 at 06:56 PM
Psychlops said: "See? I knew some good could come out of the wacky conspiracy theories y'all have been dreaming up around here."
Reality Check = Sealed v Sealed
Reality Check = Rove Indictment
Reality Check = 21 Indictments, 24 hours
I could go on but why?
Posted by: Enlightened | June 01, 2007 at 06:59 PM
Surely Cheney was behind that, too, Rich.
Posted by: clarice | June 01, 2007 at 06:59 PM
Enlightened - I don't even know what you're talking about.
Thanks tho
Posted by: Cycloptichorn | June 01, 2007 at 07:01 PM
It would appear that poor Douglas is still quite ill.
Posted by: Other Tom | June 01, 2007 at 07:01 PM
h&r...
Wow-that was fast. The Vanity Fair artilce...
And oops, I think I goofed [shhhh...don't tell Fitz]...
I suppose "moved back to the Washington area" is pretty broad-she could have been in Boston or New York and flying in to Europe for her "make out sessions" with Joe
RichatUF
Posted by: RichatUF | June 01, 2007 at 07:05 PM
Enlightened - I don't even know what you're talking about.
Thanks tho
Posted by: Cycloptichorn | June 01, 2007 at 07:01 PM
Uh - that pretty much speaks for itself.
Posted by: Enlightened | June 01, 2007 at 07:06 PM
Hmmm...here's an interesting item from the Associated Press:
"May was also the third-deadliest for Iraqis since The Associated Press began tracking civilian casualties in April 2005. At least 2,155 Iraqis were killed last month, according to the AP count. The government figure put the number at 2,123, according to officials at the Interior Ministry, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to release the information."
2,155? How can that be? According to Rosie O'Donnell, there have been an average of 11,764 civilian deaths per month since the war began.
Posted by: Other Tom | June 01, 2007 at 07:07 PM
Cheney is so evil that he can get a democrat congressman to read classified information into the congressional record.
Maybe I should make him my mentor
RichatUF
Posted by: RichatUF | June 01, 2007 at 07:08 PM
Enlightened (somewhat ironic name ya have there),
Uh - that pretty much speaks for itself.
Oh, I know what events you are referring to - who wouldn't? But I don't know why you would believe for a second that those events have anything at all to do with what we were discussing.
Thanks for playing!
Posted by: Cycloptichorn | June 01, 2007 at 07:09 PM
Rich:
Wow-that was fast.
and tops from last night:
Damage HIT! You are fast.
Phhhhheewwwww ::blowing off pistol::
You're damn straight and don't you forget it.
Posted by: Jeff Dobbs | June 01, 2007 at 07:10 PM
--On the other hand, we hate to see Mrs. Wilson be rewarded any further for her ghastly taste in men. --
That was funny.
Yeah the timeline's a little hinky isn't it?
--If the CIA was working within fitztruth "an honest-to-goodness administrative error" would have to be treason.--
Isn't there some sort of Hatch violation or aren't excuses like "honest-to-goodness...error" grounds for dramatic wastes of taxpayer money hearings or something like that? (::wink::)
Posted by: topsecretk9 | June 01, 2007 at 07:10 PM
You think he shares these talents with just anyone,Rich? HEH
Posted by: clarice | June 01, 2007 at 07:11 PM
Look, if we're talking about whacked-out nutball conspiracy theories, how about this one:
"Dick Cheney, Karl Rove and others in the White House conspired to punish Joe Wilson by outing his wife." I rank that as one of the fine thigh-slappers of recent history. It's so much fun that I almost wish it hadn't been completely debunked by the evidence at the Libby trial. On the other hand, when you're dealing with zanies, evidence doesn't matter at all.
And FDR knew about Pearl Harbor in advance, but he let it happen because he wanted something to shock the American people into wanting to go to war.
How about this: FDR's fatal cerebral hemmorhage was actually brought on by a poisoned cake sent to him by a Nazi-sympathizing German-American from Detroit, who sent him the cake with a note saying it came from "Miss Lucy Mercer." (Elmore Leonard fans, keep quiet.)
Posted by: Other Tom | June 01, 2007 at 07:13 PM
the C.I.A. suspected that her name may have been on a list given to the Russians by the double agent Aldrich Ames in 1994
And lets not forget that Ames said the KGB asked for a list of CIA employees he thought were vunerable for KGB recruitment -ahem, ahem - and those names were the CIA agents he provided.
Which would be in his after arrest debrief file.
Posted by: topsecretk9 | June 01, 2007 at 07:15 PM
Rich:
Maybe I should make him my mentor
Oh you're way behind the curve.
I had to sacrifice a goat to him. (he asked for my first born, I countered my cat, we settled on a goat)
Posted by: Jeff Dobbs | June 01, 2007 at 07:15 PM
from h&r...
...Phhhhheewwwww ::blowing off pistol::...
I'm on my P's&Q's: or is it my secrets and coverts...
...Oh you're way behind the curve.
I had to sacrifice a goat to him. (he asked for my first born, I countered my cat, we settled on a goat)...
A devilish sense of humor...
and tsk9...
...that Ames said the KGB asked for a list of CIA employees he thought were vunerable for KGB recruitment ...
Which makes me curious that the damage assessment of the Plame (or is it Wilson) name hasn't leaked...
RichatUF
Posted by: RichatUF | June 01, 2007 at 07:21 PM
"Which makes me curious that the damage assessment of the Plame (or is it Wilson) name hasn't leaked..."
Are you serious? The CIA isn't going to leak something that would compromise our national security..............
Posted by: Enlightened | June 01, 2007 at 07:25 PM
Cheney is so evil, he made Kim Jong Il.
Posted by: JM Hanes | June 01, 2007 at 07:28 PM
I thought I remembered seeing the employment memo mentioned in the Plame suing CIA story.
Walter is gone, but clarice and OT may be able to help me:
Even under Fitzgerald's formulation, he would have to show that the grand jury really was investigating that fact pattern.
What does it take to show a grand jury was investigating something? The prosecutor runs the grand jury, right? I may be wrong, but it seems to me that as long as a Prosecutor has a grand jury he can stand before, whatever questions he decides to ask and whatever issues he wishes to explore become what the grand jury is investigating.
Am I wrong? Is there some body other than the prosecutor that determines what the grand jury will investigate/is investigating?
Posted by: Maybeex | June 01, 2007 at 07:29 PM
Rich,
Then why did they wait 3 years before going back to the states?
Ames gave Russia the list in 1994, Plame should have moved back to the states in 1994.
What's up with that?
Posted by: lurker9876 | June 01, 2007 at 07:30 PM
About that goat story....you know, it's been a while since we've had a hit and run personal story. Sorry if that's been a reprieve for you, but here goes.
The year after I graduated from college, I did an summer youth internship at a church in Tyler, TX. Lived in the home of a wonderful, beautiful family. They lived at the end of a cul-de-sac. Their neighbors next door also went to the same church.
And they had a kind of prank rivalry. The neighbors one time duct taped a diaper under the seat of my host family's Suburban.
What did my host family do in retailiation?
The bought a goat, padlocked it to a tree in the neighbor's yard -- and put an ad in the paper for a free goat. (the neighbors had no key for the padlock...and for the first hour or so on this Saturday morning, no idea a goat was in their front yard)
By the way, one of my 2 degrees of separation from fame....that family....the patriarch was the developer of one of the HDTV's "Dream Home" houses and his son, who was a highschooler at the time, the builder).
(if you're curious, go to hdtv.com and see if you can't find the dream home that was built near Tyler, TX)
[VIMH: You said you stopped and got bourbon....and you're telling personal stories?]
Oh no! The dot connector....
Posted by: Jeff Dobbs | June 01, 2007 at 07:33 PM
and his son, who was a highschooler at the time, the builder
at the time I lived there.....not, obviously when the show ran.....
Posted by: Jeff Dobbs | June 01, 2007 at 07:39 PM
H&R - Better get that story straight. I might remember it differently than you and you could go to PRISON.
Posted by: Enlightened | June 01, 2007 at 07:43 PM
uh, yeah, hgtv.com
As in here...
(Enlightened, please have mercy, I am teasipperish*, afterall)
-------------------
*no, i didn't go to UT, I only *wanted* to. I went to college to play baseball, and was nowhere near up to the standard of Longhorn baseball.
Posted by: Jeff Dobbs | June 01, 2007 at 07:47 PM
Well, the Evil One might be able to straighten you up and get you to fly right.
He's a many talented man.
Posted by: Enlightened | June 01, 2007 at 07:50 PM
lurker9876 says...
...Then why did they wait 3 years before going back to the states?
Ames gave Russia the list in 1994, Plame should have moved back to the states in 1994.
What's up with that?...
A really good question, almost like some of the career details leaked by the Plames (and their allies) were meant to pin-the-tail on someone else-it always bugged me that L.Johnson said she had been with the CIA for "three decades"...now that might fly with the Socrates of Dissemblance, but it just semed too cooked up, even then...
maybeex...
Even under Fitzgerald's formulation, he would have to show that the grand jury really was investigating that fact pattern.
Not that my answer means much, but I would think claiming that the grand jury was investigating IIPA and Espionage Act violations in 2004 but relaying on a summary produced in 2006 and congressional testimony from 2007 would get Fitzgerald kicked in the ass by the judge. But then again, nothing surprises me with this trial. Russert was shown, in open court in front of a jury, to have filed a misleading affidavit [per Clarice's observations] and without objection was accused by the defense of lieing and the jury still "believed" Russert.
RichatUF
Posted by: RichatUF | June 01, 2007 at 07:51 PM
Sorry, Maybee, I just don't know the law in the area you're referring to. If it is true that Fitzgerald would have to make that showing, I would imagine that an affidavit from him stating that the grand jury was investigating that issue would suffice for purposes of a sentencing hearing.
The only question of interest to me a this point is whether Libby will remain free pending his appeal. My guess is that he will.
Posted by: Other Tom | June 01, 2007 at 07:56 PM
JMH:
Cheney is so evil, he made Kim Jong Il.
Passing off to.....h&r!
Ahmadinejad hesitates on Iran's nuclear program thinking Cheney may be the 12th imam.
Posted by: Jeff Dobbs | June 01, 2007 at 08:00 PM
psych,
you claimed yesterday that you have followed this case for four years and have claimed to be an expert of some sort. And you don't know what Enlightened was referring to? Right. You haven't followed squat for 4 years. LOL.
Notice that after psych was asked to proof of all his extraneous arguments he moved into the snark troll phase. No backup for anything he said. None. Nada. Priceless.
Posted by: Specter | June 01, 2007 at 08:01 PM
DouglasS-
At the Waxman hearing, Valerie said, "I did not recommend him, I did not suggest him".
Do you think she neither recommended him nor suggested him?
Furthermore, she said the proof that she did neither was borne out in the Libby trial. Do you think that's accurate?
Posted by: Maybeex | June 01, 2007 at 08:03 PM
h&r...
...The bought a goat, padlocked it to a tree in the neighbor's yard -- and put an ad in the paper for a free goat...
Classic.
And have one for me [burbon that is]...I'm sort of stuck where I am and have to do something later...
RichatUF
Posted by: RichatUF | June 01, 2007 at 08:07 PM
Rich, one was just poured.
And the tip of the glass is for you.
Posted by: Jeff Dobbs | June 01, 2007 at 08:10 PM
And sorry for the loss of your basketball coach.
(we have a neighbor who is a big time gator fan/alumn and one who is a big time buckeye fan/almun...makes for a fun time....not gators padlocked to any trees yet, though)
Posted by: Jeff Dobbs | June 01, 2007 at 08:14 PM
It's quite like old times having Cycloptichorn here,his wonderful content free posts are so reminiscent of our late dear demented sfarris.
BTW wasn't it crass incompetence by the CIA sending Plame's husband in the first place? A bit like having two trolls coming from Berkeley.
Posted by: PeterUK. | June 01, 2007 at 08:19 PM
From My Fair Jeralyn:
Thank you, PUK.
(me? well, I was a couple years from being the gleam in my daddy's eye)
Posted by: Jeff Dobbs | June 01, 2007 at 08:27 PM
OK, RichatUF, what are you getting at with that profile? 2-1/2 years of training, then shipped off to Athens to develop a legend as a junior dip who quits to get more education and enter the private sector with an energy consultant? Are you guessing that maybe that 1992 - 1997 period was for real covert, prepared for by the training and Athens assignment? That she was talent spotting and recruiting among the foreign students in London, Brugge and Brussels, maybe a shift in targets with Brewster Jennings? Sounds reasonable. Thanks for your service, Val gal, but you ain't been covert since 1997--not for purposes of the IIPA. You know, all the Agency lawyers know, all DoJ knows it, all State knows. Anyone with half a brain knows it.
Posted by: anduril | June 01, 2007 at 08:33 PM
Was is sfarris or sferris? I forgot.
I really love H & R on bourbon nights.
I don't know how you'd show what the gj was considering except byproviding transcripts to the court..Maybe he just IMAGINED that's what the gj was looking at like he IMAGINED Cheney telling Armitage and Rove and Harlow to leak Plame's name.
Posted by: clarice | June 01, 2007 at 08:33 PM
If it is true that Fitzgerald would have to make that showing, I would imagine that an affidavit from him stating that the grand jury was investigating that issue would suffice for purposes of a sentencing hearing.
Thanks, OT. That's kind of what I thought. It seems a no-lose situation for a prosecutor. Stand in front of a GJ you've empaneled, run off a list of things you are investigating, throw in the occasional question about it, and ta da! When sentencing time comes around, you can ask for a harsher sentence based on your "investigation".
I haven't read Fitzgerald's opinion on whether Libby remains free pending appeal. Walton's hard for me to read, but he seems to looooove Fitzgerald.
Posted by: Maybeex | June 01, 2007 at 08:36 PM
Hey--hanging around overseas colleges on Uncle Sam's dime seducing new spies is something I could do..Wouldn't even need weapons training..just a fully stocked bar.
Posted by: clarice | June 01, 2007 at 08:36 PM
Clarice,
It was sferris,I don't know my a's from my elbow.Still ,I'm not that nostalgic.
Posted by: PeterUK. | June 01, 2007 at 08:38 PM
Winding up with Joe Wilson sounds like a bout of existential despair, though, doesn't it?
Posted by: anduril | June 01, 2007 at 08:41 PM
I really love H & R on bourbon nights.
I really love you every night.
Was is sfarris or sferris? I forgot.
It was sferris
Posted by: Jeff Dobbs | June 01, 2007 at 08:41 PM
"That she was talent spotting and recruiting among the foreign students in London, Brugge and Brussels".
It would be intersting to know what languages Ms Counter Proliferator,Korean,any of the Pakistani languages,Arabic?
Considering all the nutcases that have nuclear weapons Ms CP was doing a piss poor job.
Posted by: PeterUK. | June 01, 2007 at 08:46 PM
Sue, I don't have it all figured out, I just happen to like the President's 5-Point Plan proposed in May of 2006 and I still like it.
So those of us who don't like it should just shut up. Gotcha ya...
Doesn't work for me or do I think it works for the majority of Americans.
We'll see, I suppose.
I don't consider myself whiny. I've stood with Bush on almost every issue. I can't and won't stand with him on this issue. Nor will I stand with my senators or reps if they vote for this bill as it has been presented. And they have been made aware of that. If that makes me whiny, I'll just have to wear the label.
Posted by: Sue | June 01, 2007 at 08:49 PM
Surfing. I'm not too good at it, but I'm an expert board sailor.
Spoofing. Not my cup of tea. Left to professionals. Experts, if you will. Over and out.
Posted by: Sue | June 01, 2007 at 08:51 PM
Top,
It's really sad they have to diig in so deep to prop up these truth challenged shysters in order to keep them heros.
I don't understand why they are fighting so hard to keep Val away from the 2002 mission. Didn't Wilson admit that his wife got him the gig in 1999? In his book, I think. What was the difference the second time around? Did she get into trouble for the 1999 trip?
Posted by: Sue | June 01, 2007 at 08:54 PM
Sue, I love you.
And that's not just the bourbon talking.
And not the fact that you know the Shiner distributor either. Or was it Lone Star? Or Both?!!?!??
OK, the failed memory is the bourbon talking...
Posted by: Jeff Dobbs | June 01, 2007 at 08:59 PM
anduril...
...Are you guessing that maybe that 1992 - 1997 period was for real covert, prepared for by the training and Athens assignment?...
I don't think she was ever "for real covert". The Chicago paper [I said the SunTimes but I'm not sure] said she had a return address to the US Embassy-Athens. Great. Cover. Identity. Leading. Back. To. The US Government. I have my less-sober moment theories as to what her actual role might have been and what she might have been up to if her education as reported in the VF article is any guide.
and h&r-
I was thinking it would happen. UF has had a great run with Donovan. It would have been pretty difficult to top... and And the tip of the glass is for you Many thanks
RichatUF
Posted by: RichatUF | June 01, 2007 at 09:02 PM
Rich, well, you've convinced me.
ANOTHER ROUND FOR RICH........
::pour::
Posted by: Jeff Dobbs | June 01, 2007 at 09:06 PM
What was the difference the second time around? Did she get into trouble for the 1999 trip?
Sue, I'm not Tops, but I think I know this.
Joe Wilson is the one that needed Valerie to not be involved in sending him. At first, it was so that it would look like he had to be begged to go, by State, the CIA and the whole government, because the OVP was asking about yellow cake in Niger. It gave his trip importance.
Then, once Val's name got out, it was again important for her not to have been involved. Joe has said there was no reason to drag his wife into this, because she had nothing to do with his trip. The minute her name was actually associated with the planning of the trip, there was a legitimate reason for her name to have come up.
Posted by: Maybeex | June 01, 2007 at 09:11 PM