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May 31, 2007

Comments

cathyf
"[W]e were really investigating that Cheney committed treason by selling out the country to invisible pink unicorns from outer space for 30 pieces of silver..."
Even under Fitzgerald's formulation, he would have to show that the grand jury really was investigating that fact pattern.
Well it certainly appears that they were. The grand jury was engaged in an investigation of mythical creatures -- a Valerie Plame Wilson married to Joe Wilson who was covert/secret/classified after Feb 19, 2002, is as much of a mythical creature as an invisible pink unicorn from outer space.
cathyf
Can't we all agree that, "but for" Valerie, Joe wouldn't have gone?
Well, actually, I don't agree. I think that Joe Wilson, at least on paper, was not at all an unreasonable choice to go to Niger. He is a former diplomat, lots of contacts in that part of Africa, and a few in Iraq, too. I would hope that the CIA has agents in place all over the world who have the sort of background and experiences as Wilson. Obviously I hope without the narcissistic personality disorder and pathological lying, but, yeah, with a resume that looks like that. And, I would expect that if the CIA uses one of these folks for a mission, and that person was the spouse/parent/child/aunt/uncle/neighbor/etc. of a real covert agent, and that person needed to go to an interagency meeting to discuss his/her mission, then (after the person signs a confidentiality agreement!) that person would be escorted to the meeting by a CIA employee who is completely unrelated and untraceable back to that person, and no mention made about the personal relationship that the person has with the covert employee.
And even if not, isn't his statement a plain and simple lie?
Well, of course. Notice Wilson's claim has two parts: 1) that her intervention was unnecessary for him to get the job; and 2) that she made no intervention. While I'm willing to grant him 1) -- for no other reason than that there is ample evidence that the CIA is incompetent enough to hire him on their own -- it is obvious now from the evidence that 2) is and was a baldfaced lie.
boris

GWB put forth a 5-point plan, what three or four years ago ...

This is true. It's been a contentious divisive issue whenever it gets discussed on the right.

In retrospect it would have been better to get a program with more enforcement during the Republican congress. IMO enforcement only conservatives made that difficult or impossible.

If they can stop this bill, that might be a good way to get a better one. Putting up with some static seems like a small price to pay considering how much they have produced (over time) on the issue. (Not here though, I got banned at another site for causing a reactive firestorm by simply suggesting W's original plans combined with a good fence would alter the incentives in a positive fashion.)

Rick Ballard

"I actually and truly believe that Bush will be regarded as a good if not great president because he had the guts to face our enemies."

Had Churchill been PM in 1936 and mobilized the Brits (and French) to react to Hitler's move on the Rhineland with sufficient force to put Herr Hitler out of business for good in a short sharp fight, would his greatness be recognized today?

The potential for damage to the US from the use of asymmetrical methods of warfare still remains unacknowledged within the general population as does the fact that the Koran is Mein Kampf presented over a longer time scale.

Nobody gets much credit for effective prevention - something that didn't happen is hard to measure. IMO, the President's historical ranking is dependent upon his future actions wrt Iran. Iraq and Afghanistan are points of metatastisis, the actual cancer loci are in Qum - and Mecca.

RichatUF
...Rich: "How again wasn't she involved?"

Nice job distorting and taking things out of context. The reports officer didn't say she wasn't "involved" in any manner whatsover. He said she wasn't "involved in the decisionmaking."

Now you are being pedantic. She wrote the memo, wrote (oops, drafted) the cable, and convened the meeting. And lets not forget the helpful phone call that Joe Wilson made to Walter Keinstenner, the then Deputy Assistant Sec. of State for African Affairs. How is it a distortion to say “she was involved in the decision to send him”? And nice shot, being involved and making the call…who sent him? Who signed the travel orders (oops, that’s right Mr. National Command Authority was only reimbursed for expenses-plane ticket, meals, maybe a few trinkets-and didn’t have to sign a non-disclosure agreement)? Seems no one really wants to say how the mission was planned. Valerie Plame Wilson was involved in the genesis of the mission, the execution of the mission, and after he returned, the debriefing. She was a GS-14, right she had no “authority”.


I guess you mean her memo (pdf, p. 207) which says this: "As you may recall [redacted] of CP/[office 2] recently [2001] approached my husband to possibly use his contacts in Niger to investigate [redacted] [a separate Niger matter]." In other words, her memo which indicates that someone else, not her, was apparently first to start raising the idea that CIA might have reason to send Wilson to Niger.

You must not have been following the story closely. Joe was sent (funny after Plame offered up his name) in Feb 1999. This always seems to get lost. Also the remaining of the sentence shows that [redacted] pursued the “separate Niger matter” using liaison-so maybe [redacted] had second thoughts on Joe’s tea sampling abilities. And this matter is an unknown: Valerie recommended Joe for the Feb 1999 trip and the Feb 2002 trip, why am I skeptical that she had no role in the Feb 2001 trip.

By the way, here's a simple question about that memo. The key paragraph contains an ellipsis, in a key place. Is that ellipsis in the original? The context seems to indicate that the answer is no. But it's essentially impossible to answer this question, because for some strange reason, Bond gave us a retyped version of Plame's email, rather than a photo of a printed original. How odd. Here's something else that's odd: he used two different redaction techniques (or three, if the ellipses is yet another redaction). It's hard to imagine why, unless he wanted to obscure the length of certain particular redactions.

Still being pedantic: the ellipsis are part of the original. The sentence is: “Now, with this report, it is still clear that the IC is still wondering what is going on…my husband has[…]” She is reciting her husband’s bona fides because as she says, she “may be in a position to help.” The only thing redacted was the “separate Niger matter” [probably AQ Khan] and the names and offices in the distribution, which was probably done as she was writing the memo.


"her 13 Feb cable distributed to the larger IC and FS community"

Where did you get "distributed to the larger IC and FS community?" This is what Bond told us (p. 212) about that cable: "Mrs. Wilson drafted a cable that was sent overseas requesting concurrence with Ambassador Wilson's travel to Niger." Since when is "overseas" translated as "to the larger IC and FS community?"

And the cable’s distribution was…or from the SSCI, July 04, page 39

…The former ambassador’s wife told Committee staff that when CPD decided it would like to send the former ambassador to Niger, she approached her husband on behalf of the CIA and told him "there’s this crazy report" on a purported deal for Niger to sell uranium to Iraq. [redacted]Former ambassador [Wilson] had traveled previously to Niger on the CIA’s behalf […redacted]. The former ambassador was selected for the 1999 trip after his wife mentioned to her supervisors that her husband was planning a business trip to Niger in the near future and might be willing to use his contacts in the region […redacted]. Because the former ambassador did not uncover any information about [redacted] during this visit to Niger, CPD did not distribute an intelligence report on the visit.


The idea that she convened a meeting or introduced him at a meeting (or sent a memo "requesting concurrence" with something) doesn't mean she was "involved in the decisionmaking." It's completely consistent with the following scenario: she helped carry out a decision made by someone else.

Its not a either or thing: she wrote the 12 Feb memo, she drafted the 13 Feb cable, AND she convened the 18 Feb meeting. It is appropriate to say she was involved in the decisionmaking to get Joe Wilson the trip, and she got what she wanted. And why get spun up over it, it wouldn't be illegal, because nepotism laws wouldn't apply. I still don't get why it is an argument that Valerie Plame Wilson wanted Joe to go to Niger and he went, even after the current US Ambassador to Niger didn't see the point (and prevented him from talking to then current officials).

RichatUF

cathyf

Here's something interesting:

In 1998, Mr. Libby served, practically on a full time basis for over half the year, as the Legal Advisor to the House Select Committee on National Security, known as the Cox Committee, which uncovered the theft of U.S. military secrets (including nuclear weapons technology) by the People's Republic of China.
I've always thought that this was all about getting Cheney, Rove, Bush, and Libby just happened to get in the way, or, if there was any particular reason for Libby to be a target, it was because of the Marc Rich pardon. But this makes me wonder -- Libby was on the crew that uncovered the monumental incompetence of the FBI counter-espionage clown show, and that was the department that was in charge of the investigation at the beginning.

JM Hanes

Clarice:

"but there is more..a bizarre waying of thinking"

I know what you're trying to get at here, because Fitzgerald is not corrupt in any ordinary sense of the word. "Overzealous" & "ruthless" spring easily to mind, but they don't really capture or explain the impassioned recklessness at the heart of Fitzgerald's prosecutions.

I used to get stuck wondering how Fitzgerald justifies cutting legal (and truthful!) corners to himself. Other people are quick to excuse such excesses, and can even come to admire them, because they believe Fitzgerald is genuinely out to get the bad guys. I believe that's true myself. I'm sure he sees himself that way, and I do think that's what drives him, rather than the crass political ambitions of an operator like Nifong -- or the complex ambitions of an Eliot Spitzer. In fact, a comparison with Spitzer would be telling in inumerable ways, although I won't linger on that here.

Fitzgerald is a slightly twisted Eliot Ness in this picture, replacing tax evasion with obstruction. He really believes that prosecution for perjury is the moral equivalent of prosecuting an underlying crime, which is why he can quote Judge Tatel in his own defense -- sock puppetry notwithstanding -- sans irony. In FitzWorld, extremism in pursuit of justice is no vice, and the law is a tool in that pursuit. If he needs to use a hammer as a pry bar, or a wrench as a brickbat, or argue specious precedents, so be it.

What makes Fitzgerald uniquely dangerous, however, is that he trusts his own instincts absolutely, when he shouldn't. I suspect that the people who surround him were attracted by his zeal and came on board already inclined to trust his instincts too.

Fitzgerald knows who the bad guys are -- and any witness who won't give those bad guys up is, by definition, on the wrong side of the law. Unfortunately, perhaps because he's got no life, he seems as likely to be obtuse as perceptive. When your instincts are well-honed, you put the Gambinos out of business and make Merrill pay for their sins. When they're not, Fitzgerald's fundamentally intuitive approach to law leaves a trail of Libby's, and a corruption of the process that will take other victims, in its wake.

Sue

This is about bashing Bush and about how a far right whiny wing of the party wants THEIR INTERESTS and the hell with what happens to the Party or the next election as a result.

You have it all figured it out, don't you? And to hell with anyone who disagrees? I don't have blind support for either party. I am neither Republican nor Democrat.

Sue

In FitzWorld, extremism in pursuit of justice is no vice, and the law is a tool in that pursuit.

I think you are right. He said almost that in the interview with his school paper. If the law is unclear, he had to determine what it should say. He is the determiner.

Cycloptichorn

Some here may want to consider looking into a career in Dramatic Writing.

I've never been disappointed by the ability of Right-wingers to Appeal to Extremes in an entertaining fashion, and there really could be some money in it if pursued professionally.

topsecretk9
Seems no one really wants to say how the mission was planned. Valerie Plame Wilson was involved in the genesis of the mission, the execution of the mission, and after he returned, the debriefing. She was a GS-14, right she had no “authority”.

Don't the lefties wonder why her superior (and the CIA) who planned the Niger mission, accepted the suggest of Joe Wilson as a suitable candidate and then signed off on the mission hasn't all these years ever even leaked and come to her rescue?

And since they haven't why?

You must not have been following the story closely. Joe was sent (funny after Plame offered up his name) in Feb 1999. This always seems to get lost.

Yeah Rich, especially since this is the very excuse Wilson used to justify why the CIA picked him out of a hat for Niger 02...

The former ambassador had traveled previously to Niger on the CIA’s behalf … The former ambassador was selected for the 1999 trip after his wife mentioned to her supervisors that her husband was planning a business trip to Niger in the near future and might be willing to use his contacts in the region …”

It's really sad they have to diig in so deep to prop up these truth challenged shysters in order to keep them heros.

glasater

" In 1998, Mr. Libby served, practically on a full time basis for over half the year, as the Legal Advisor to the House Select Committee on National Security, known as the Cox Committee, which uncovered the theft of U.S. military secrets (including nuclear weapons technology) by the People's Republic of China."
In his memoir, Louis Freeh does not let Weng Ho Lee off the hook and definitely implies that the guy was guilty. Freeh ran it up Janet Reno's flagpole and she did not salute.

Sara

Sue, I don't have it all figured out, I just happen to like the President's 5-Point Plan proposed in May of 2006 and I still like it. I live on the border and I think the President's plan is still the best proposed so far:

* First, the United States must secure its borders. This is a basic responsibility of a sovereign nation. It is also an urgent requirement of our national security. Our objective is straightforward: The border should be open to trade and lawful immigration, and shut to illegal immigrants, as well as criminals, drug dealers, and terrorists.

* Second, to secure our border, we must create a temporary worker program. The reality is that there are many people on the other side of our border who will do anything to come to America to work and build a better life. They walk across miles of desert in the summer heat, or hide in the back of 18-wheelers to reach our country. This creates enormous pressure on our border that walls and patrols alone will not stop. To secure the border effectively, we must reduce the numbers of people trying to sneak across.

Therefore, I support a temporary worker program that would create a legal path for foreign workers to enter our country in an orderly way, for a limited period of time. This program would match willing foreign workers with willing American employers for jobs Americans are not doing. Every worker who applies for the program would be required to pass criminal background checks. And temporary workers must return to their home country at the conclusion of their stay.

* Third, we need to hold employers to account for the workers they hire. It is against the law to hire someone who is in this country illegally. Yet businesses often cannot verify the legal status of their employees because of the widespread problem of document fraud. Therefore, comprehensive immigration reform must include a better system for verifying documents and work eligibility. A key part of that system should be a new identification card for every legal foreign worker. This card should use biometric technology, such as digital fingerprints, to make it tamper-proof. A tamper-proof card would help us enforce the law, and leave employers with no excuse for violating it. And by making it harder for illegal immigrants to find work in our country, we would discourage people from crossing the border illegally in the first place.

* Fourth, we must face the reality that millions of illegal immigrants are here already. They should not be given an automatic path to citizenship. This is amnesty, and I oppose it. Amnesty would be unfair to those who are here lawfully, and it would invite further waves of illegal immigration.

Some in this country argue that the solution is to deport every illegal immigrant, and that any proposal short of this amounts to amnesty. I disagree. It is neither wise, nor realistic to round up millions of people, many with deep roots in the United States, and send them across the border. There is a rational middle ground between granting an automatic path to citizenship for every illegal immigrant, and a program of mass deportation. That middle ground recognizes there are differences between an illegal immigrant who crossed the border recently, and someone who has worked here for many years, and has a home, a family, and an otherwise clean record.

I believe that illegal immigrants who have roots in our country and want to stay should have to pay a meaningful penalty for breaking the law, to pay their taxes, to learn English, and to work in a job for a number of years. People who meet these conditions should be able to apply for citizenship, but approval would not be automatic, and they will have to wait in line behind those who played by the rules and followed the law. What I’ve just described is not amnesty, it is a way for those who have broken the law to pay their debt to society, and demonstrate the character that makes a good citizen.

* Fifth, we must honor the great American tradition of the melting pot, which has made us one nation out of many peoples. The success of our country depends upon helping newcomers assimilate into our society, and embrace our common identity as Americans. Americans are bound together by our shared ideals, an appreciation of our history, respect for the flag we fly, and an ability to speak and write the English language. English is also the key to unlocking the opportunity of America. English allows newcomers to go from picking crops to opening a grocery, from cleaning offices to running offices, from a life of low-paying jobs to a diploma, a career, and a home of their own. When immigrants assimilate and advance in our society, they realize their dreams, they renew our spirit, and they add to the unity of America.

Your way and the Noonan way is either give us our way or do nothing and destroy the man who really wants to do something. Doesn't work for me or do I think it works for the majority of Americans.

clarice

Yes, jmh, that's pretty much the way I see it. And if you read the daily reports of the Conrad Black case he did the same stuff there. Exactly. He has not proved one single criminal act on the part of the defendants; he misunderstood cCanadian commercial law and accounting rules, he gave immunity to a serial liar who was completely destroyed on the stand. OTOH in Ill the feds have an over 98% win rate and somehow he got into the record the defendant Black's lavish life style so that the gum shewing proles in the jury will hate Black as much as the Democratic partisan jurors in D.C. hate the Administration.

OTOH don't underestimate private ambition entirely. There's a premium for prosecutors who act quickly to indict, who don't "waste time" on preliminaries like is this illegal?, who creatively bend the law as he does and who master the craft of obstruction counts when no real crimes can be proven.
He's utterly a creature of (dare I say it?) the post-Giuliani prosecutor as political rising star phenomenon.
Ask Anduril when he shows up?

topsecretk9

Smells like a Fitzy hit job alright

Mark Kipnis, the lawyer on trial for fraud with former Hollinger International Inc. Chairman Conrad Black, says a mistrial should be declared because prosecutors misled jurors about the existence of evidence against him.

In papers filed today with U.S. District Court Judge Amy St. Eve in Chicago, Kipnis's attorneys argue prosecutors in their March 20 opening statement made claims about his criminal motives and then failed to provide proof before resting their case this week.

``The government emphatically declared that Mr. Kipnis committed these crimes in order to receive $150,000 in bonus payments. Unfortunately these are statements the government knew couldn't be proven at trial,'' defense lawyer Ronald Safer wrote...

...During the trial, former Hollinger President F. David Radler, who pleaded guilty to fraud and agreed to cooperate with prosecutors, testified that Kipnis received two bonus payments totaling $150,000, based on the legal work he did there.

Radler, under cross-examination, agreed with Safer's assertion that the bonus money was unrelated to the noncompete agreements.

Kipnis's lawyers also filed papers today asking St. Eve to acquit their client of all charges.

Randall Samborn, a spokesman for Chicago U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald, wouldn't comment on Kipnis's filings.

a few other defendants are as well.

JM Hanes

Clarice:

"OTOH don't underestimate private ambition entirely"

O.K. I'll concede something between crass and complex. :)

Enlightened

Cathyf said:

"I've always thought that this was all about getting Cheney, Rove, Bush, and Libby just happened to get in the way, or, if there was any particular reason for Libby to be a target, it was because of the Marc Rich pardon. But this makes me wonder -- Libby was on the crew that uncovered the monumental incompetence of the FBI counter-espionage clown show, and that was the department that was in charge of the investigation at the beginning"

Hmmm. Makes you wonder.

I wonder why Russert and NBC are trying to railroad Libby as well.

JM Hanes

Lady Sara:

I oppose the current immigration package for a lot of reasons, but it was hardly unexpected. I had to laugh when I checked in on Hot Air yesterday. Half the comments sounded like Andrew Sullivan when Bush came out for the federal marriage amendment.

MikeS

Some here may want to consider looking into a career in Dramatic Writing.

Already working on it Cyclo. My son is in the biz and we are collaborating on a new comedy bit. It’s kind of a modern “Who’s on First” based on current news events.

The main character, Polyphemus, insists that VP Cheney is guilty of a crime though Polyphemus is not yet sure what that crime is. Our hero is incensed that no one has come forward with proof or even an allegation of this crime.

… It goes on and on and on like that.

anduril

I hope I'm not duplicating. Best of the Web at OpinionJournal leads with a Plame item. Here's the meat of it:

It [a CIA letter to Plame re retirement benefits] said that Ms. Wilson had worked for the government since November 9, 1985, for a total of "20 years, 7 days," including "six years, one month and 29 days of overseas service."

Put that in your covert pipe and smoke on it a bit. Or, put that in your pipe and smoke it covertly. Whichever.

lurker9876

"six years, one month and 29 days of overseas service"

Assuming contiguous overseas services and referring to Joe's autobiography, they moved back to the states in 1997...then Valerie spent 1992 to 1997 overseas.

Other than that, if non-contiguous...what the hell does it mean?

Cycloptichorn

Don't forget to add in the part where Libby goes to jail to yer story there Mike. It's the dramatic turn in the third act which will provide the necessary atmosphere for the Sturm and Drang.

lurker9876

If that is what Fitz used in his sentencing document, nowhere does it say that Plame was covert.

MikeS


Don't forget to add in the part where Libby goes to jail

Then it would be a tragedy not a comedy!

lurker9876

MikeS, it would be a tragedy because it could happen to Cyclo just as it is happening to Libby and Conrad. It happened to Booker as well. So this is going to affect all of us.

There will never be a fair trial after these two trials.

Hopefully, Conrad would end up being acquitted or his trail declared as mistrial.

MikeS

If it happened to Cyclo, it would be irony.

clarice

Don't miss this bit from Taranto re Plame's suit against the CIA:"On this point at least, the CIA's position seems indefensible. On the other hand, we hate to see Mrs. Wilson be rewarded any further for her ghastly taste in men. As Henry Kissinger said of the Iran-Iraq war, may both sides lose."

clarice

Don't forget as we established a week or so ago during the discussion of drama queen Comey's performance--Libby was the point man on getting the NSA approval from DoJ; Comey named all the people he was feuding with about the program EXCEPT Libby on whom he'd just sicced his buddy Fitz.

lurker9876

MikeS, maybe that is the only way to help Cyclo to understand the implications of these two cases but I don't have much hope.

Clarice, link?

Thanks!

Enlightened

"Don't forget to add in the part where Libby goes to jail to yer story there Mike. It's the dramatic turn in the third act which will provide the necessary atmosphere for the Sturm and Drang."


Isn't it funny how desperate TruthOuters are to have Scooter sent to jail - still bed wetting over the 21 indictments coming down, and the ellusive sealed v sealed.

Being in front of the news cycle and ending up lose/lose could be detrimental to the brain trust.

Cycloptichorn

There will never be a fair trial after these two trials.

Now, this is what I mean when I talk about Appealing to Extremes. Seriously.

You may want to turn down the hysterical hyperventilation dial just a tad there, Lurker.

lurker9876

I was thinking about that, Englightened. Cyclo appears to be just as desperate as the Truth-outers. It's the only thing that gives them a win. They will go, "Nyah, nyah, nyah!"

I don't think remanding or sentencing Libby will be a compromise to anyone.

Problem is that...in five years' time, someone like Schumer writes a letter to an AG requesting a runaway SP. "Starr-Fitz" is appointed and ends up charging Cyclo for perjury and obstruction of Justice without an underlying crime, then "Starr-Fitz" plays the sentencing game introducing evidence that was not allowed during the trial.

Sure, this can happen to a very dedicated public servant like Cyclo.

Yupper, MikeS can write something like that.

clarice

lurker--you mean the Taranto bit?
http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110010156>bad taste in men

lurker9876

Thanks, Clarice! Much appreciated!

clarice

Happy to be able to fetch it for you.

Enlightened

Lurker: Or you mean in 3 years when Mrs. Bill Clinton is CIC and testifies under oath what is/is? Or testifies 100 times "I don't recall", I don't know", I have no recollection".....etc etc.

Ring around the Rosey....


Speaking of Rosie - Did anyone see that photoshop going around of her with her head embedded on Khalid Sheihk Mohammed sitting on the bed in his undies with all that hairy fur all over him? I think it was over at HotAir. Sometimes you CAN make it up! :o)

Jeff Dobbs

I am flabbergasted to find out I hate Bush as much as the moonbats do. Good thing I stopped and got some bourbon on the way home.

RichatUF

anduril...

...It [a CIA letter to Plame re retirement benefits] said that Ms. Wilson had worked for the government since November 9, 1985, for a total of "20 years, 7 days," including "six years, one month and 29 days of overseas service.'...

Interesting: assuming 2.5 years for training[sorry no links]...

Training: Nov 85-May 88

US-Embassy Athens: May 88-??92 [Chicago Sun Times]

London School of Economics 1992-(93?)94 [VF]
Interesting, that no one has pulled any class photos or grad school work. I would think this would be easy enough to confirm.

College of Europe (93?)94-(94?)95 [VF]

Same as above: she says she was in a 1 year program in International Law (interesting the College of Europe is co-located with the United Nations University)

"returned to the US in 1997?" seems to me that she has a gap somewhere from 1994 to 1997: if the VF article is accurate (a big if) regarding her CV and if the time in school would count as being overseas, she had to be doing something between as early as 1994 to 1997. I don't have the VF article handy, and am too lazy to look it up right now. I thought in the VF article it said that she came back to the states in 1995 and only traveled overseas thereafter.

So confused, so much speculation...

RichatUF

Jeff Dobbs

Dude, I practically got the link to the vanity fair article memorized.

JM Hanes

MikeS:

"...it would be irony."

LOL!!

Enlightened

...It [a CIA letter to Plame re retirement benefits] said that Ms. Wilson had worked for the government since November 9, 1985, for a total of "20 years, 7 days," including "six years, one month and 29 days of overseas service.'...


Well, can't we discount the dates of her pregnancy, post partum, leave of absence and stay-at-home momness?

I rather doubt she was overseas in a covert postion during that time.

lurker9876

Enlightened and MikeS,

Oh, to make Ms. Bill Clinton testifying about her domestic wiretappings in June 2007? And what else?

Oh, what will be one of her first steps? Oh yea, fire all of the US Attorneys that are Republicans and replace them with the Democratic US Attorneys.

And guess what...will she and her own AG be testifying for the so-called incompetent firings of the US Attorneys?

looks like you two got a good story going.

Jeff Dobbs

Of course, that "jimgilliam" site is the one I always use because it comes first in google...

If you want the real deal...here it is

lurker9876

Oh, don't forget that Cyclo just became a very dedicated public servant working for Hillary's new Vice President.

Enlightened

Can't we further discount the dates Joey boy was world-travelling? I mean, did she just let the nanny take care of the kids while dad was tea-sipping and she was being
covert-i?

Are covert agents allowed to leave their children on the continent while they traipse about all covert-like? What if she was killed during her covert-i-ness? Wouldn't the little smidgens be in danger? Weren't they in total danger while she was all covert-like?

I still think there is going to be a sealed v sealed blockbuster in her book about the PLAME v WILSON surname = covert.

Let's figure it out and ruin her book.

MikeS

Oh, don't forget that Cyclo just became a very dedicated public servant working for Hillary's new Vice President

I'm thinking 'sitcom'?

Enlightened

Ok. Wait. The CIA is already ruining her book.

And her husband already ruined her reputation.

Pfftt. Book's already a loser.

Cycloptichorn

See? I knew some good could come out of the wacky conspiracy theories y'all have been dreaming up around here.

Can't wait for Tuesday! The Dramatic Climax. It remains to be seen whether or not the dénouement will be interesting, however; much of that depends on you, my friends. Don't let me down.

RichatUF

from the WSJ...

..."Frankly," said Mark Mansfield, a spokesman for the agency, the release of that information in February 2006, in response to a query from Ms. Wilson about retirement benefits, was "an honest-to-goodness administrative error." ...

If the CIA was working within fitztruth "an honest-to-goodness administrative error" would have to be treason. The CIA must be working from the "covert, maybe?"™ sheet music composed by the Plames

RichatUF

lurker9876

Oh, I'm sure that Libby will spend time in prison. I'll be surprised if Libby gets no time in prison.

New phase in the sitcom...

Cyclo spends time in prison for something he did not do.

Enlightened

Psychlops said: "See? I knew some good could come out of the wacky conspiracy theories y'all have been dreaming up around here."

Reality Check = Sealed v Sealed
Reality Check = Rove Indictment
Reality Check = 21 Indictments, 24 hours

I could go on but why?

clarice

Surely Cheney was behind that, too, Rich.

Cycloptichorn

Enlightened - I don't even know what you're talking about.

Thanks tho

Other Tom

It would appear that poor Douglas is still quite ill.

RichatUF

h&r...

Wow-that was fast. The Vanity Fair artilce...

...After the Gulf War she was sent to the London School of Economics, and from there to the College of Europe, an international-relations school in Bruges. She stayed on in Brussels, telling friends she was working for an energy consulting firm, Brewster-Jennings ...

And oops, I think I goofed [shhhh...don't tell Fitz]...

...In 1997, Plame moved back to the Washington area, partly because (as was recently reported in The New York Times) the C.I.A. suspected that her name may have been on a list given to the Russians by the double agent Aldrich Ames in 1994...

I suppose "moved back to the Washington area" is pretty broad-she could have been in Boston or New York and flying in to Europe for her "make out sessions" with Joe

RichatUF

Enlightened

Enlightened - I don't even know what you're talking about.

Thanks tho

Posted by: Cycloptichorn | June 01, 2007 at 07:01 PM


Uh - that pretty much speaks for itself.

Other Tom

Hmmm...here's an interesting item from the Associated Press:

"May was also the third-deadliest for Iraqis since The Associated Press began tracking civilian casualties in April 2005. At least 2,155 Iraqis were killed last month, according to the AP count. The government figure put the number at 2,123, according to officials at the Interior Ministry, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to release the information."

2,155? How can that be? According to Rosie O'Donnell, there have been an average of 11,764 civilian deaths per month since the war began.

RichatUF

Cheney is so evil that he can get a democrat congressman to read classified information into the congressional record.

Maybe I should make him my mentor

RichatUF

Cycloptichorn

Enlightened (somewhat ironic name ya have there),

Uh - that pretty much speaks for itself.

Oh, I know what events you are referring to - who wouldn't? But I don't know why you would believe for a second that those events have anything at all to do with what we were discussing.

Thanks for playing!

Jeff Dobbs

Rich:
Wow-that was fast.

and tops from last night:

Damage HIT! You are fast.


Phhhhheewwwww ::blowing off pistol::

You're damn straight and don't you forget it.

topsecretk9

--On the other hand, we hate to see Mrs. Wilson be rewarded any further for her ghastly taste in men. --

That was funny.

Yeah the timeline's a little hinky isn't it?

--If the CIA was working within fitztruth "an honest-to-goodness administrative error" would have to be treason.--

Isn't there some sort of Hatch violation or aren't excuses like "honest-to-goodness...error" grounds for dramatic wastes of taxpayer money hearings or something like that? (::wink::)

clarice

You think he shares these talents with just anyone,Rich? HEH

Other Tom

Look, if we're talking about whacked-out nutball conspiracy theories, how about this one:

"Dick Cheney, Karl Rove and others in the White House conspired to punish Joe Wilson by outing his wife." I rank that as one of the fine thigh-slappers of recent history. It's so much fun that I almost wish it hadn't been completely debunked by the evidence at the Libby trial. On the other hand, when you're dealing with zanies, evidence doesn't matter at all.

And FDR knew about Pearl Harbor in advance, but he let it happen because he wanted something to shock the American people into wanting to go to war.

How about this: FDR's fatal cerebral hemmorhage was actually brought on by a poisoned cake sent to him by a Nazi-sympathizing German-American from Detroit, who sent him the cake with a note saying it came from "Miss Lucy Mercer." (Elmore Leonard fans, keep quiet.)

topsecretk9

the C.I.A. suspected that her name may have been on a list given to the Russians by the double agent Aldrich Ames in 1994

And lets not forget that Ames said the KGB asked for a list of CIA employees he thought were vunerable for KGB recruitment -ahem, ahem - and those names were the CIA agents he provided.

Which would be in his after arrest debrief file.

Jeff Dobbs

Rich:
Maybe I should make him my mentor


Oh you're way behind the curve.

I had to sacrifice a goat to him. (he asked for my first born, I countered my cat, we settled on a goat)

RichatUF

from h&r...

...Phhhhheewwwww ::blowing off pistol::...

I'm on my P's&Q's: or is it my secrets and coverts...


...Oh you're way behind the curve.

I had to sacrifice a goat to him. (he asked for my first born, I countered my cat, we settled on a goat)...

A devilish sense of humor...

and tsk9...
...that Ames said the KGB asked for a list of CIA employees he thought were vunerable for KGB recruitment ...

Which makes me curious that the damage assessment of the Plame (or is it Wilson) name hasn't leaked...

RichatUF

Enlightened

"Which makes me curious that the damage assessment of the Plame (or is it Wilson) name hasn't leaked..."

Are you serious? The CIA isn't going to leak something that would compromise our national security..............

JM Hanes

Cheney is so evil, he made Kim Jong Il.

Passing off to.....h&r!

Maybeex

I thought I remembered seeing the employment memo mentioned in the Plame suing CIA story.

Walter is gone, but clarice and OT may be able to help me:
Even under Fitzgerald's formulation, he would have to show that the grand jury really was investigating that fact pattern.

What does it take to show a grand jury was investigating something? The prosecutor runs the grand jury, right? I may be wrong, but it seems to me that as long as a Prosecutor has a grand jury he can stand before, whatever questions he decides to ask and whatever issues he wishes to explore become what the grand jury is investigating.

Am I wrong? Is there some body other than the prosecutor that determines what the grand jury will investigate/is investigating?

lurker9876

Rich,

...In 1997, Plame moved back to the Washington area, partly because (as was recently reported in The New York Times) the C.I.A. suspected that her name may have been on a list given to the Russians by the double agent Aldrich Ames in 1994...

Then why did they wait 3 years before going back to the states?

Ames gave Russia the list in 1994, Plame should have moved back to the states in 1994.

What's up with that?

Jeff Dobbs

About that goat story....you know, it's been a while since we've had a hit and run personal story. Sorry if that's been a reprieve for you, but here goes.

The year after I graduated from college, I did an summer youth internship at a church in Tyler, TX. Lived in the home of a wonderful, beautiful family. They lived at the end of a cul-de-sac. Their neighbors next door also went to the same church.

And they had a kind of prank rivalry. The neighbors one time duct taped a diaper under the seat of my host family's Suburban.

What did my host family do in retailiation?

The bought a goat, padlocked it to a tree in the neighbor's yard -- and put an ad in the paper for a free goat. (the neighbors had no key for the padlock...and for the first hour or so on this Saturday morning, no idea a goat was in their front yard)

By the way, one of my 2 degrees of separation from fame....that family....the patriarch was the developer of one of the HDTV's "Dream Home" houses and his son, who was a highschooler at the time, the builder).

(if you're curious, go to hdtv.com and see if you can't find the dream home that was built near Tyler, TX)


[VIMH: You said you stopped and got bourbon....and you're telling personal stories?]
Oh no! The dot connector....

Jeff Dobbs

and his son, who was a highschooler at the time, the builder


at the time I lived there.....not, obviously when the show ran.....

Enlightened

H&R - Better get that story straight. I might remember it differently than you and you could go to PRISON.

Jeff Dobbs

uh, yeah, hgtv.com

As in here...

(Enlightened, please have mercy, I am teasipperish*, afterall)

-------------------
*no, i didn't go to UT, I only *wanted* to. I went to college to play baseball, and was nowhere near up to the standard of Longhorn baseball.

Enlightened

Well, the Evil One might be able to straighten you up and get you to fly right.

He's a many talented man.

RichatUF

lurker9876 says...

...Then why did they wait 3 years before going back to the states?

Ames gave Russia the list in 1994, Plame should have moved back to the states in 1994.

What's up with that?...

A really good question, almost like some of the career details leaked by the Plames (and their allies) were meant to pin-the-tail on someone else-it always bugged me that L.Johnson said she had been with the CIA for "three decades"...now that might fly with the Socrates of Dissemblance, but it just semed too cooked up, even then...

maybeex...

Even under Fitzgerald's formulation, he would have to show that the grand jury really was investigating that fact pattern.

Not that my answer means much, but I would think claiming that the grand jury was investigating IIPA and Espionage Act violations in 2004 but relaying on a summary produced in 2006 and congressional testimony from 2007 would get Fitzgerald kicked in the ass by the judge. But then again, nothing surprises me with this trial. Russert was shown, in open court in front of a jury, to have filed a misleading affidavit [per Clarice's observations] and without objection was accused by the defense of lieing and the jury still "believed" Russert.

RichatUF

Other Tom

Sorry, Maybee, I just don't know the law in the area you're referring to. If it is true that Fitzgerald would have to make that showing, I would imagine that an affidavit from him stating that the grand jury was investigating that issue would suffice for purposes of a sentencing hearing.

The only question of interest to me a this point is whether Libby will remain free pending his appeal. My guess is that he will.

Jeff Dobbs

JMH:
Cheney is so evil, he made Kim Jong Il.

Passing off to.....h&r!


Ahmadinejad hesitates on Iran's nuclear program thinking Cheney may be the 12th imam.


Specter

psych,

you claimed yesterday that you have followed this case for four years and have claimed to be an expert of some sort. And you don't know what Enlightened was referring to? Right. You haven't followed squat for 4 years. LOL.

Notice that after psych was asked to proof of all his extraneous arguments he moved into the snark troll phase. No backup for anything he said. None. Nada. Priceless.

Maybeex

DouglasS-
At the Waxman hearing, Valerie said, "I did not recommend him, I did not suggest him".

Do you think she neither recommended him nor suggested him?

Furthermore, she said the proof that she did neither was borne out in the Libby trial. Do you think that's accurate?

RichatUF

h&r...

...The bought a goat, padlocked it to a tree in the neighbor's yard -- and put an ad in the paper for a free goat...

Classic.

And have one for me [burbon that is]...I'm sort of stuck where I am and have to do something later...

RichatUF

Jeff Dobbs

Rich, one was just poured.

And the tip of the glass is for you.

Jeff Dobbs

And sorry for the loss of your basketball coach.

(we have a neighbor who is a big time gator fan/alumn and one who is a big time buckeye fan/almun...makes for a fun time....not gators padlocked to any trees yet, though)

PeterUK.

It's quite like old times having Cycloptichorn here,his wonderful content free posts are so reminiscent of our late dear demented sfarris.

BTW wasn't it crass incompetence by the CIA sending Plame's husband in the first place? A bit like having two trolls coming from Berkeley.

Jeff Dobbs

From My Fair Jeralyn:

It Was 40 Years Ago Today...

Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band
By Jeralyn, Section Media
Posted on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 05:53:50 PM EST
Tags: (all tags)

The album was released 40 years ago today, June 1, 1967 -- just as I was getting ready to graduate from high school and the summer of love was kicking off. The times, they were a changing.


Thank you, PUK.

(me? well, I was a couple years from being the gleam in my daddy's eye)

anduril

OK, RichatUF, what are you getting at with that profile? 2-1/2 years of training, then shipped off to Athens to develop a legend as a junior dip who quits to get more education and enter the private sector with an energy consultant? Are you guessing that maybe that 1992 - 1997 period was for real covert, prepared for by the training and Athens assignment? That she was talent spotting and recruiting among the foreign students in London, Brugge and Brussels, maybe a shift in targets with Brewster Jennings? Sounds reasonable. Thanks for your service, Val gal, but you ain't been covert since 1997--not for purposes of the IIPA. You know, all the Agency lawyers know, all DoJ knows it, all State knows. Anyone with half a brain knows it.

clarice

Was is sfarris or sferris? I forgot.
I really love H & R on bourbon nights.
I don't know how you'd show what the gj was considering except byproviding transcripts to the court..Maybe he just IMAGINED that's what the gj was looking at like he IMAGINED Cheney telling Armitage and Rove and Harlow to leak Plame's name.

Maybeex

If it is true that Fitzgerald would have to make that showing, I would imagine that an affidavit from him stating that the grand jury was investigating that issue would suffice for purposes of a sentencing hearing.

Thanks, OT. That's kind of what I thought. It seems a no-lose situation for a prosecutor. Stand in front of a GJ you've empaneled, run off a list of things you are investigating, throw in the occasional question about it, and ta da! When sentencing time comes around, you can ask for a harsher sentence based on your "investigation".

I haven't read Fitzgerald's opinion on whether Libby remains free pending appeal. Walton's hard for me to read, but he seems to looooove Fitzgerald.

clarice

Hey--hanging around overseas colleges on Uncle Sam's dime seducing new spies is something I could do..Wouldn't even need weapons training..just a fully stocked bar.

PeterUK.

Clarice,
It was sferris,I don't know my a's from my elbow.Still ,I'm not that nostalgic.

anduril

Winding up with Joe Wilson sounds like a bout of existential despair, though, doesn't it?

Jeff Dobbs

I really love H & R on bourbon nights.

I really love you every night.

Was is sfarris or sferris? I forgot.

It was sferris

PeterUK.

"That she was talent spotting and recruiting among the foreign students in London, Brugge and Brussels".

It would be intersting to know what languages Ms Counter Proliferator,Korean,any of the Pakistani languages,Arabic?
Considering all the nutcases that have nuclear weapons Ms CP was doing a piss poor job.

Sue

Sue, I don't have it all figured out, I just happen to like the President's 5-Point Plan proposed in May of 2006 and I still like it.

So those of us who don't like it should just shut up. Gotcha ya...

Doesn't work for me or do I think it works for the majority of Americans.

We'll see, I suppose.

I don't consider myself whiny. I've stood with Bush on almost every issue. I can't and won't stand with him on this issue. Nor will I stand with my senators or reps if they vote for this bill as it has been presented. And they have been made aware of that. If that makes me whiny, I'll just have to wear the label.

Sue

Surfing. I'm not too good at it, but I'm an expert board sailor.

Spoofing. Not my cup of tea. Left to professionals. Experts, if you will. Over and out.

Sue

Top,

It's really sad they have to diig in so deep to prop up these truth challenged shysters in order to keep them heros.

I don't understand why they are fighting so hard to keep Val away from the 2002 mission. Didn't Wilson admit that his wife got him the gig in 1999? In his book, I think. What was the difference the second time around? Did she get into trouble for the 1999 trip?

Jeff Dobbs

Sue, I love you.

And that's not just the bourbon talking.

And not the fact that you know the Shiner distributor either. Or was it Lone Star? Or Both?!!?!??

OK, the failed memory is the bourbon talking...


RichatUF

anduril...

...Are you guessing that maybe that 1992 - 1997 period was for real covert, prepared for by the training and Athens assignment?...

I don't think she was ever "for real covert". The Chicago paper [I said the SunTimes but I'm not sure] said she had a return address to the US Embassy-Athens. Great. Cover. Identity. Leading. Back. To. The US Government. I have my less-sober moment theories as to what her actual role might have been and what she might have been up to if her education as reported in the VF article is any guide.

and h&r-

I was thinking it would happen. UF has had a great run with Donovan. It would have been pretty difficult to top... and And the tip of the glass is for you Many thanks


RichatUF

Jeff Dobbs

Rich, well, you've convinced me.

ANOTHER ROUND FOR RICH........


::pour::

Maybeex

What was the difference the second time around? Did she get into trouble for the 1999 trip?

Sue, I'm not Tops, but I think I know this.
Joe Wilson is the one that needed Valerie to not be involved in sending him. At first, it was so that it would look like he had to be begged to go, by State, the CIA and the whole government, because the OVP was asking about yellow cake in Niger. It gave his trip importance.

Then, once Val's name got out, it was again important for her not to have been involved. Joe has said there was no reason to drag his wife into this, because she had nothing to do with his trip. The minute her name was actually associated with the planning of the trip, there was a legitimate reason for her name to have come up.

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Wilson/Plame