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June 26, 2007

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lurker9876

I read Libby's response that was just posted this afternoon and thought it was well-done. Think they have a good chance in convincing this judge panel into reversing Walton's decision of jail time. Their argument was convincing enough for close questions.

chch16

I take it Clarice is the cheerleader for the commentors who has such analytical statements as "I do not see after reading all these briefs how they can rule otherwise."

Sounds like prime law review analysis to me.

Could Clarice possibly be Kate O'Beirne? I ask because her wishful thinking is identical to O'Beirne without any analysis.

J.M. Hanes--I don't have to volunteer any more personal information than the rest of you who are volunteering absolutely none. Interesting that someone (Clarice) just argued with no analysis to back it up that Fitz and Walton's briefs were "absurd." Ask her where she's a lawyer.

I know what Addington's arguments are--every permutation and combination of them have been plastered in every newspaper, political blog, and legal blog, and he's not politically helping Bush or this adminstration with them.

I think the elections will prove that the public is sick and tired of all the secrecy, the wire tapping, and the internet tapping by ISPs, and the obfuscation and byzantine ways this Administration has tried to hide them.

I also noticed that fwiw in the House and the Senate in the last 48 hours that Republicans are becoming openly hostile to Bush and Cheney on the Iraq war and on the Immigration Bill.

There is erosion of support for Bush by Republicans in the Senate and House on Iraq, and it will continue. No significant changes for the better are going to happen by September or ever.

I don't see any documentation, cites or links from you that reflect your 42 years of practice vngjagvet. Bring 'em on. Send your ideas to Robbins. I'm sure he'll welcome them. There is still an en banc battle in the D.C. Circuit on the bond motion, and following that there will be a bid from Robbins via Rule 21 to the S. Ct. to by that time get Scootie out of the BOP clutches and a T.V. room full of hip hop videos from B.E.T.


Jeff Dobbs

LIVEBLOGGING Delta Flight 1004
(due to technical limitations and Delta rules, this liveblogging is reproduced rather than actually live, all times EST)

7:00 am - board plane
7:05 - Who is that? Is it? Nah....Wait, is he sitting in the row in front of me and hit and run jr?
7:15 - plane taxis down runway, person in row in front of me has conversation with couple. Now convinced that it is he!
7:20 - Liftoff
7:30 - He's now reading Wash Times
8:00 - He's now reading USA Today
8:30 - He's reading Wash Post
8:42 - He tears out Richard Cohen article...wow, he's done this before, that's a really really clean tear.
8:50 - He's now reading Washington Monthly
9:00 - He orders coffee, cream no sugar (I get bloody mary mix)
9:15 - He's reading Wall St Journal, tears out Bret Stephens article
9:30 - Second coffee, black. He's now reading Financial Times
9:37 - He's reading New York Times (Arts Section)
9:40 - He's reading US News and World Report
9:45 - He's reading Policy Review
10:10 - He's reading The Nation
10:25 - He's reading American Conservative
11:10 - We begin descent
11:30 - touch down
11:31 - the Washington Montly that slipped through the seat to hit and run jr's feet is returned, and I confess that I recognized him, though I was too chicken when he was seated to talk to him because I wasn't sure it was he. He says 'thanks' and quickly without any other acknowledgement goes back to his Blackberry (he's emailing Cliff May).
11:39 - Without any opening to speak to him beyond returning his magazine, I wish William Kristol a good trip. And proceed up the jetway in SLC, making our way to our connection to Jackson Hole airport.

Opportunities wasted.

I Blame Sobriety.

topsecretk9

Does anyone recall a few years ago Dems. wanted to release documents or something regarding this and Libby requested they not because the investigation was ongoing and this put the Republicans in a spot having to block the Dems. request?

topsecretk9

Does anyone recall a few years ago Dems. wanted to release documents or something regarding something related {fix} to the investigation and Libby Fitz requested they not because the investigation was ongoing and this put the Republicans in a spot having to block the Dems. request?

Jeff Dobbs

JMH:
In fact, if you're fishing -- and I do hope you're fishing!


Oh I wish! As my brother who live here full time undoubtedly does as well! We are not. It's family and the family will just sit around and drink beer. Which, though not quite up to the thrills of fishing, will no doubt produce thrills of its own!

clarice

Hit--similar thing happened to me in May (Howard Kurtz).

Ralph

Hit,

I hope that you get out of Jackson Hole and meet REAL Wyoming cowboys!

Enjoy your visit.

All the Best,

Ralph

Jeff Dobbs

Clarice:
Hit--similar thing happened to me in May (Howard Kurtz).

Two things. The couple with a 10 month old in his row ----- he was absolutely fabulous with. Conversation, ease, whatever. I reallyu think that mentioning that I recognized him made him uncomforable --- he didn't seem really keen on the "celebrity" bit.

Second, I missed this in the liveblogging:

11:11 - Showed Washington Monthly magazine that fell at hit and run jr's feet to mrs hit and run and whispered plan to use it to engage Kristol in conversation....she accused me of "stalking like" behavior.

chch16

If Libby goes to jail pending appeal, there ain't no justice in the DC Circuit.

No one wants to touch this. With 14/17 judges including the Senior judges Bush automatons in the D.C. Circuit, and with Bush's White House Counsel Brett Kavanaugh with knee jerk support for this administration who has always refused to recuse himself when the administration is arguing before his panel, how could you people not think the fix is already in for Scootie?

No commentor seems to want to touch this unique Administration support in the D.C. Circuit but you know damn well it's there and it has shown up in every case the administration has had an interest in from the D.C. Circuit.

Jeff Dobbs

Ralph:
I hope that you get out of Jackson Hole and meet REAL Wyoming cowboys!

Oh, I'm out of Jackson Hole....into Idaho.

I totally saw you mention Wyoming earlier - but didn't say anything....you nearby? Or..........

Jeff Dobbs

Clarice:
Hit--similar thing happened to me in May (Howard Kurtz).

Oh and to be sure, I was all prepared with the do you know Clarice, she published an article in the Weekly Standard and all........totally wanted to be asking/plugging JOM....with questions about his view of the Libby trial as it stands now....but, he was busy with the Blackberry and anything I tried would have fulfilled mrs hit and run's prophesy (of being a stalker).

clarice

I see. If he wins it is not, as we noted, because he has a great legal position, but rather because the fix is in.

Hmmm.

***********
Ralph I am astonished to hear you say Jackson Hole isn't th real Wyoming..LOL

I stay on Jackson Lake when we go, and I think the Grand Tetons are incredible. I feel like another person when I'm there--even if I barely touch foot in that Ralph Lauren looking city.
(Maybe in another life I was a Plains Indian or something. )

clarice

Sure you did, Hit. And if I'd chatted up Kurtz (who frankly looked shleppy even if his wife and little girl are cute) I'd have mentioned you and Reason and Taranto..yup..

chch16

Glaster's comments on passports and Z Visas are spot on. As I made the point on another thread, two dirty little secrets of the Immigration Fiasco with Homeland Security now mucking it up the way Chertoff did with Katrina, is that

1) As it is now, if you watch an immigrant try to legally navigate the bureaucracy it is not unusual for it to take more than 10 years and 5-7 grand before the legal fees.

2) DOJ has now appointed a number of judges typically with no immigration litigation experience vetted by none other than Monica Goodling who had no litigation experience who was a political hack of the worst order, and many immigration attorneys complain that the judges don't know jack about immigration law.

I posted a link that showed the survey published that showed wildly divergent decisions depending on what court on asylum cases that were identical as to the facts and the law.

This is just one more area of Bush Administration incompetence.

Ralph

Hit,

I'm in Evanston, "not far" as things go in Wyoming, but probably 4-6 hours from where you'll be in (I'm assuming) southern Idaho.

If you get down to the Salt Lake Valley, let me know, and I'll meet you for a beer or two (or some good sushi!)

All the Best,

Ralph

clarice

HIT, Does that mean you have to take that horrible road thru the mountains to get to JH? That is the scariest drive I have ever been on and I have been on some some horrible roads around the world. (I understand in the winter cars go tumbling off it and down the mountain with some regularity.

topsecretk9

OK this is about it - could this be a situation where the Dems bit their own ass - does Fitz sound inferior here? - and seems to me problems with the advice - consent - to regular old me

[2005]

The House Intelligence Committee earlier today became the third congressional committee to derail a "resolution of inquiry" that would have required the Bush administration to turn over to Congress sensitive information and records relating to the outing of CIA officer Valerie Plame...

...In a letter to the committee, dated Sept. 14, William E. Moschella, an assistant Attorney General for legislative affairs, wrote: "Mr. Fitzgerald has advised that production at this time of the documents responsive to H. Res.418 and the other resolutions, and any attendant hearings, would interfere with his investigation. According, we request that the committee report adversely H. Res. 418."

Democrats, however, pointed out that Congress engaged in its own extensive formal investigations of Watergate and Whitewater while special prosecutors conducted criminal inquiries...

A senior congressional staffer told me last night that the refusal to turn over information regarding Plame also stands in stark contrast to the manner in which the Justice Department dealt with a recent criminal investigation of former Clinton NSC advisor Sandy Berger. During the course of the criminal probe of Berger, the staffer pointed out, both Intelligence Committee chairman Pete Hoekstra, Republican of Michigan, and the ranking Democrat on the panel, Jane Harmon, of California, received regular briefings from the Department of Justice while the investigation was ongoing.

Elliott

H&R:

Glad you had a safe trip and sorry the circumstances weren't more conducive to extended discourse with Juan Williams' sparring partner. I saw Kristol in person once and he was very good and very nice to all the people who came up to speak with him afterwards.

Ralph

Clarice,

I knew that you really had CLASS! At least you know to vacation in Wyoming!

I think that the Tetons are one of the most beautiful sights on Earth. (The "Going to the Sun" Highway in Glacier National Park has a few that, at least, rival it.)

If you haven't done so, try to stay at Jenny Lake Lodge some time. It's on the West side of Jenny Lake. The "rooms" are small cabins, and they all have porches on the West side with a spectacular view of the Tetons. They're not cheap, but the premium is well worth it for the incomparable view that you get.

Marilyn ("Phang" to those of us who know and love her) and I were in Yosemite last summer, and we're very glad that we didn't try to stay in the park, the prices were horrible, and all you could see from the rooms were pine needles (which I can see for much less than $350/night!).

Jenny Lake Lodge is well worth the price (and it was "only" about 200/night the last time I checked! )

All the Best,

Ralph

Jeff Dobbs

Clarice:
HIT, Does that mean you have to take that horrible road thru the mountains to get to JH? That is the scariest drive I have ever been on and I have been on some some horrible roads around the world.


Yes. It is not a bad drive in the summer, but in the winter it can be horrible. My brother used to be the beer truck driver between the Jackson distributor and the Victor/Driggs, ID establishments. Not fun in the winter....

Ralph

Clarice,

"HIT, Does that mean you have to take that horrible road thru the mountains to get to JH? "

I just don't know about your "flat-landers."
There are no "horrible" roads in Wyoming, only "interesting" or "challenging" ones!

All the Best,

Ralph

Elliott

H&R:

I confess that I recognized him, though I was too chicken when he was seated to talk to him because I wasn't sure it was he.

If we ever get a "Sedere Indecisis" thread, be sure to repost this there.

Jeff Dobbs

Elliott:
I saw Kristol in person once and he was very good and very nice to all the people who came up to speak with him afterwards.

You know, as I relayed my story to family, everyone assumed he was some kind of ogre for brushing me off. But he really didn't. As I said, he was grrrreat with the family in his row, and the 10 month old was not the sweetest, quietest kid. I think I caught him off-guard --- and SLC was his final destination and he was probably trying to get his transportation arrangements figured out when we landed....I WISH I had had the courage of my initial impressions when seeing him, that it was him.

But, to his credit, if he wishes, he looks better in person than on TV, he looks 10-15 years younger!

clarice

Thnx Ralph--I get to use the owner's apt at Signal Mt Lodge with an open view of the lake an d mountains. Jenny Lake is nicer, I'm sure--but this is a big, well-appointed (free) apt with the best views in the area.

Plenty of room for us, the kids and "the wolverine"(my grand daughter).
I've been to Jenny Lake though and think it's lovely.
**********

About that road--the worst thing is to see the emergency turnoffs for trucks, see the rubber patches on the road leading to them and imagining what happened to the trucks that were forced to use them and all the cars around them at the time.

clarice

ts--that's interesting. I wish I had your memory.

topsecretk9

also notice (at the link)

In the case of the House Intelligence Committee, they were aided, when at the very last minute, the Justice Department informed the committee that Fitzgerald himself opposed any independent inquiry at this time by Congress.

Also, I wonder if Fitzgerlad's refusal to appear at the latest Waxman hearings is in some way applicable?

Pal2Pal (Sara)

Back in June 1959, my Mother and I took off from PA across country in her brand new Pontiac Catalina that she picked up from the dealer the day before we left. When we reached the Grand Tetons and we were 15 feet from the Summit, we hit a rock that put a hole in the oil pan. That was the scariest driving day of my life as we were towed down the mountain. I was quite young, but I think it was the first time I saw my Mother cry. She was so distressed that her brand new car was damaged, but even more she was terrified of having it swinging to and fro behind a construction truck down that horrible road. We ended up having to stay in Wyoming for several days because the car was so new, the mechanics did not have the parts. We stayed at a "Dude" Ranch that was like something out of a movie. Private cabins, beautiful common buildings yet very rustic and views to die for.

clarice

Yeah, pardon me Ralph and HIT, I think that road is petrifyingly scary in summer and damned near suicide in winter.

clarice

Sara, If I were the prosecutor I'd not want to have co-existing congressional hearings when the case is proceeding and I wouldn't testify before Congress either.

Any supervision should be in the executive branch or (as under the IC) a special judicial panel.There's too much danger of interfering with the defendant's right to a fair trial or as we saw in the North case, obviating any chance of prosecution by Congressional meddling.

Ralph

Clarice,

You can't beat that price!

Still, I can't help but think that it would be worth it, for one night, to be able to roll out of bed, grab you cup of coffee, and meander out to your own private porch with an incomparable view of the Tetons!

While the Tetons are "the sight" as far as I'm concerned, there's a LOT more to see in Wyoming than just that range. Besides, all the tourists know about the Tetons and Yellowstone. The other sites are not nearly as crowded!

All the Best,

Ralph

Ralph

Clarice,

"Yeah, pardon me Ralph and HIT, I think that road is petrifyingly scary in summer and damned near suicide in winter."

That's only because you come from country in which they put up guard rails when the drop off exceeds 3 feet!

clarice

HEH--Actually, Ralph the place has a huge porch and a glasses in living room/dining room and billiard room that all look out over the lake to the mountains with nothing at all in the way. I get to see that glory from sunup to sundown..and I love every minute of it.

***

John Gerstein NY Sun:
"The latest filing takes a more confrontational tack against the trial judge in the case, Reggie Walton. He filed a 30-page opinion last week bolstering his refusal to delay the start of Libby's prison term until after his appeals are resolved.

The defense team also noted that Mr. Fitzgerald signed a certification that disclosing that certain classified information could harm national security, even though he was not permitted to do so under the law. The prosecutor and Judge Walton said the error was harmless, but the defense contends that it underscores their point that no one was supervising Mr. Fitzgerald. "If Fitzgerald was not a ‘principal' officer at that moment, who exactly was?" the defense attorneys asked."

http://www.nysun.com/article/57370

(In searching for any report of the filing I came across a piece on Cheney in something called the New Wyoming (JH of course)--what a vile piece of dreck1

clarice

"glasseD in "

Niters.

Pal2Pal (Sara)

Clarice, I think you meant TSK9, not Sara.

Ralph

Clarice,

I'm NOT about to belittle the view you get, but do stop at Jenny Lake Lodge the next time you're up that way.

If you haven't done so already, do visit the museum in Cody, Wyoming. It's well worth the trip. (Probably about 1-1.5 hours from Jackson --- I've never taken that route, so I'm guessing. It'll be a "mild" road since a LOT of tourists take it! )

clarice

I love the Cody Museum!! It's a long drive, but it is worth it. Gorgeous stuff in there!
Sara, you're right. I meant ts. Niters again.

topsecretk9

Clarice

I think it's me, not Sara you were addressing at Posted by: clarice | June 27, 2007 at 01:39 AM

and I totally agree. My POINT is that it is apparent that the DOJ was totally out of the loop and had NO understanding of Fitzgerald's investigation that he ADVISED THEM in the form of a last minute letter. -and not "inferior"

Also - while the precedent is flawed to say the least - FITZ's precedent of attempting to thwart congress's right to investigate is and of itself unprecedented in that he and ONLY he knows the nature of his investigation (we now know) and he interviened to NOT "turn over to Congress sensitive information and records relating to the outing of CIA officer Valerie Plame" goes to the...

-- his 6(c)(2) filing was purely "ministerial" because he simply "relied on an attached affidavit of a CIA representative."--

It's the AT or designated inferiors call no? or it is the AT call IF HE KNEW?

JM Hanes

Ralph:

Well, you've sold me! I'll be heading that way at some point to see my son and I'll put Jenny Lake on my list.

JM Hanes

tsk9:

Has anyone ever told you that you've got a noze for newz? I bet there's more out there, don't you?

chch16


Alot of fanboys and girls of Chickenhawks here tonight gushing on Bill Kristol whose every Iraq prediction has gone south.

Bill Kristol did not serve.

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-KY - did not serve (1)
Senate Assistant Minority Leader Trent Lott, R-MI - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Senate Republican Conference Chairman Jon Kyl, R-AZ - did not serve.
National Republican Senatorial Committee Chair John Ensign, R-NV - did not serve.


House Minority Leader John Boehner, R-OH - did not serve.
House Minority Whip Roy Blunt, R-MO - did not serve.
House Republican Conerence Chair Adam Putnam, R-FL - did not serve.
House Republican Policy Committee Thaddeus McCotter, R-MI - did not serve.
National Republican Congressional Committee Chair Tom Cole, R-OK - did not serve.

Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani - did not serve.
Former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney - did not serve in the military but did serve the Mormon Church on a 30-month mission to France.
Former Senator Fred Thompson - did not serve.
Former Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Former House Majority Leader Dick Armey - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Former House Majority Leader Tom Delay - avoided the draft, did not serve (1). "So many minority youths had volunteered ... that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like himself."
Former House Majority Whip Roy Blunt - did not serve
Former Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist - did not serve. (An impressive medical resume, but not such a friend to cats in Boston.)
Rick Santorum, R-PA, formerly third ranking Republican in the Senate - did not serve.
George Felix Allen, former Republican Senator from Virginia - a supporter of Nixon and the Vietnam war, did not serve.

GW Bush - decided that a six-year Nat'l Guard commitment really means four years. Still says that he's "been to war." Huh?
VP Cheney - several deferments (1, 2), the last by marriage (in his own words, "had other priorities than military service") (1)
Former Att'y Gen. John Ashcroft - did not serve (1, 2); received seven deferment to teach business ed at SW Missouri State

Jeb Bush, Florida Governor - did not serve. (1)

Karl Rove - avoided the draft, did not serve (1), too busy being a Republican.

Former Speaker Newt Gingrich - avoided the draft, did not serve (1, 2)
Former President Ronald Reagan - due to poor eyesight, served in a noncombat role making movies for the Army in southern California during WWII. He later seems to have confused his role as an actor playing a tail gunner with the real thing.

topsecretk9

BOLD?

JM Hanes

[yawn]

chch16

Do you all by odds predominantly White Middle Aged people obsess this much when every other defendant in the D.C. district court is convicted or just Scootie?

topsecretk9

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003 | Source

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002 | Source

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998 | Source

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
- President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998 | Source

"We must stop Saddam from ever again jeopardizing the stability and security of his neighbors with weapons of mass destruction."
- Madeline Albright, Feb 1, 1998 | Source

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998 | Source

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton.
- (D) Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, others, Oct. 9, 1998 | Source

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998 | Source

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999 | Source

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and th! e means of delivering them."
- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002 | Source

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 | Source

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 | Source

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002 | Source

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002 | Source

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002 | Source

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002 | Source

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002 | Source

it gets a little old no, che che?

chch16

It deserves bold since these people who have so much to say about war never saw any unless it was a situation where the wife discovered their mistress.

chch16

Every point is fresh from me. What gets old is all these self-appointed pundits whose only posts are to call names the way you did when your age was single digits and to gush about things that are going south like Robbins, Iraq, Bush health care, Bush immigration, Bush passports.

Why the obsession with Scootie the Traitor?

topsecretk9

HEH!

chch16

Senator Richard Shelby, did not serve (1)
Senator Jon Kyl, R-AZ - did not serve (1, 2)
Senator John Cornyn, R-TX - did not serve. (1)
Senator Tim Hutchison, R-AR - did not serve (1, 2)
Rep. Christopher Cox, R-CA, (formerly) fifth-ranking Republican in the House - did not serve. (1)
Rep. John T. Doolittle, R-CA, sixth-ranking Republican in the House - did not serve.
Representative Saxby Chambliss, Georgia - did not serve (1, 2), had a "bad knee" (yet somehow feels he has a right to attack Max Cleland's patriotism)
Rep. Randy Kuhl, R-NY - Did not serve. (1)
Former Representative JC Watts - did not serve (1, 2)
Jack Kemp, did not serve (1, 2) (was unfit because of a knee injury, though he heroically continued as a National Football League quarterback for another eight years - source)
Former Vice President Dan Quayle, avoided Vietnam service, got a slot in the journalism unit of the Indiana National Guard when the unit was at 150% capacity (at least he showed up for his duty, unlike GW) (1, 2)
Eliot Abrams, did not serve (1, 2) (however, played a key role in subverting democracy in South America)
Paul Wolfowitz, did not serve (1, 2)
Former Representative Vin Weber, did not serve (1, 2)
Richard Perle, did not serve (1, 2) (is the current bloodshed in the Middle East a direct result of his treasonous meddling in Clinton Administrstion foreign policy?)
Douglas Feith, Undersecretary of Defense for Policy - did not serve. (1)
Michael Bloomberg, did not serve (1, 2)
George Pataki, did not serve (1, 2)
Spencer Abraham, did not serve
John Engler, did not serve (1, 2)
Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC) - website used to claim service as a "Operation Desert Shield and Desert Storm veteran." A current biographical website makes no such claim. In reality, was a National Guard lawyer who never left South Carolina during the Gulf War.
Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, R-CA, did not serve (1)
Rep. Darrell Issa, R-CA/49th, there were some problems with his service.
Rep. John M. McHugh, R-NY - avoided the draft, did not serve (1)
Rep. Todd Platts, R-PA - did not serve (1)
Arnold Schwarzenegger, CA Republican Governor - went AWOL from his Austrian army base to enter a bodybuilding competition
Senator Joe Lieberman - did not serve.

chch16

The point is, that Republican chickenhawks don't serve. Like the nebish who pushes people to fight on the playground, they agitate to see fights and war because they lack the balls to get in them so they live vicariously through them much as people do when they get a rush from a movie.

Pal2Pal (Sara)

This Chichi guy is beginning to get on my nerves. Someone needs to tell him that he is about 3 years behind the times with his insults, that insulting a woman who is both a successfully published writer and a successful Washington, DC attorney shows how ignorant he is, that the chickenhawk argument might fly in his own cowardly circles but here you will find the vets who made it possible for him to spew his idiocy around, and that his legal opinions make people laugh. Oh and that if you come to a blog where the main focus has been the Plame/Wilson/Libby issue since Day One, then you are pretty sure to see Scooter Libby discussed quite often. If you want to read about another subject, find a blog or forum that specializes in that issue and stay away from JOM.

Pal2Pal (Sara)

Please have the courtesy to close your own tags.

Pal2Pal (Sara)

off

Pal2Pal (Sara)

The point is, that Republican chickenhawks don't serve.

And you have I suppose. My husband served 26 years, 4 combat tours, how 'bout you? Nearly every man who posts here regularly has served and many of those who come here have sons or daughters serving now. Volunteer service, not the cowardly draft dodgers and Winter Soldiers your side seems to produce. You are pathetic.

glasater

Michael Moore is on Jay Leno right now. He's huge--as in large. Just dwarfs Jay.

topsecretk9

Here is where Che Che get's his TP's.

http://www.awolbush.com/whoserved.html

Unwittingly, it make's the argument that NON-Serving congressional democrats have no basis, standing or right to vote on anything military.

Well, and that those Dems generally hate the military should disqualify them, I think.

chch16

I can reproduce my comments which have never been insults and nothing but insults towards me from every other commentor.

They have no impact whatsoever on me except to confirm that the base is too lazy to do any analysis.

Maguire does some. I haven't seen anyone else yet on 3-4 different threads.

And published attorneys are simply a dime a dozen.

They are no big deal. Your friend Clarice has taken cheerleading to a new level and for an attorney there is damn little analysis from her.

Sara you give orders to no one on the planet. You get on my nerves with your inane comments buttressed with no facts.

I went when my draft board called me Sara and I have again how damn dense are you made no aspersions as to anyone on this blog serving.

I pointed to your chicken Republican leaders and I went to Vietnam to make sure you have the freedom to insult me babe.

Sara what branch did you serve in, what war and when?

That's exactly what I thought.

topsecretk9

Michael Moore is on Jay Leno right now. He's huge--as in large. Just dwarfs Jay.

IIRC he made a bad impression in one small town in Washington State -- he bitched and moned about the lack of a decent restaurant and sand bagged the town to get good eats,

Pal2Pal (Sara)

And of course, you would mention Cheney's deferments but fail to mention the long and distinguished service to his country including as Secretary of Defense during the Gulf War. Or that George Bush exceeded his required National Guard hours by triple and that training and becoming a fighter pilot is not something a slacker accomplishes. At least he wasn't so dumb he flunked out of college like Al Gore or shot himself in the butt in order to get out of finishing his tour in Vietnam like Kerry.

chch16

The biggest form of whimp is someone who astutely points out someone overweight and rags on their weight instead of the content of their work.

Moore is fat. He knows it. And if he looked like Afleck you'd be more impressed.

I haven't seen one person take on any of the health care points I made.

Your health care is being impacted as well, you just don't get it yet.

As inner city hospitals continue to go bankrupt, and they are, the poor will stream to your hospitals, and they will raise your insurance and copay to compensate.

The insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies make the cost of your meds go up exponentially.

chch16

Sara if I'm not closing something and you explain what, I'll be glad to do it.

I have no idea what's not being closed or if you mean me.

I know Cheney's CV Sara and you know I know it. I think he's been a disaster as VP, a constant schemer as the WaPo points out in 4 articles (have you read them) and he's damaging your man Bush. I respect your opinions but I disagree with them.

Sara, Bush ran away from the National Guard when he was assigned a plane that would finally go to Nam. He did not show up for a physical exam and his records were destroyed. He has no concept of the damage he's creating in Iraq.

How many thousands of GIs sara are going to die? What do you define as victory? There is no Iraq government now. They have not begun to make decisions on any issue that the US has put before them not one.

You can't believe that the only terror front is in Iraq or that there aren't cells here---the fight 'em over there stupidity so we don't have to here. That's just insane.

We are clearly not more secure now than before 911 and wtf were Bush and Condi and Cheney doing ignoring the PDBs that were presented from the CIA who delivered them the correct intelligence that they cherry picked?

Pal2Pal (Sara)

I figure you to be somewhere chronologically in the neighborhood of 19-25, emotionally about 14. I no more believe you served in Vietnam than I believe the sun will rise in the West tomorrow. You want analysis, start reading the archives. Some of the best and most complete analysis of the entire Plame affair has been at this blog. Start back 3 or more years and work forward, you might learn something. No one here is obligated to repeat years of analysis for your benefit. Do your own homework. Pathetic. And if someone doesn't think the points you make are worth responding to, maybe you should rethink your points. So far, I haven't seen anything of substance. All you do is spout a bunch of knee jerk talking points and socialist B.S. laced with massive amounts of BDS.

Pal2Pal (Sara)

Yada yada yada -- don't these people ever get any new thoughts.

Yawn is right. Good night.

chch16

How can we get this font out of Italics? I'm doing nothing to put the posts in italics and now everyone else is in Italics. As far as I now I closed my tags every time, and even when you're signed in this thing makes you sign in again half the time which is crazy.

glasater

I remember hearing about Moore's comments on the food here in WA. What an oaf. Didn't someone comment earlier that obese people are last in line to get treated in socialized medicine countries?

chch16

I don't follow your logic. You're not ever going to live in a socialized medicine country--I assume you're in the U.S.

We have a huge problem with obesity here whether you do or not and we have a huge wave of so-called "Type II AODM" now in children in this country--predomoninantly lower income children.

Moor'es obesity problem is his problem. If you have one it's yours.

Why can't you get it through your head that Moore's movie raised legitimate health care questions that confront this country, and anyone that has spent any time in the health care biz recognizes that.

Why are you so offended by Moore's ideas? We have plenty of important thinkers on both sides of the political aisle who are over weight.

I don't recall attacking Cheney because he's nearly as overweight as Moore will be after he drops a few more pounds. Cheney precipitated his own coronary artery disease to a large extent by poor health habits, no exercise, and exponentially increasing obesity in the last 10-12 years.

I go after Cheney's ideas--not his appearance as obese.

Why not you do the same with Moore? Moore made a good movie. Why are you offended by Moore's trying to improve health care? Do you run or work in an insurance company or a pharmaceutical company? Why the thin skin because someone wants to improve health care? It makes not a lot of sense to me.

And as to DOJ looking into his going to Cuba--we have a lot of prominent Republican doners who go to Cuba to party every month. DOJ isn't investigating their trips to Cuba--help me with that concept?

Pal2Pal (Sara)

Moore thinks the communist system should be the model. Moore is a fraud. The fact that he is grossly overweight and a slob has nothing to do with his idiocy.

chch16

Sara you're becoming a joke and I tried to treat you with respect.

I don't need anything here for Plame analysis. I follow more newspapers and blogs than you've possibly heard of in depth.

I can analyze and when I said I want analysis I mean I want some constructive debate from you and the rest of these knee jerk Republican base commentors. I don't need Plame info from you. I want you to defend your aspersions that you cast. No one here butresses their thoughts. They just toss insults and call names like kids under 10. That's what you're doing now Sara.

Look at my posts. I've done plenty of homework. I understand the Libby trial and appeal in a far more sophsticated way than you do. You don't get the trial or appellate nuances Sara and none of them have been in your comments. You woudln't know a FRAP from Paris Hilton. You have no idea how partisan Republican 14/17 of the judges on the D.C. Circuit are, because you never did the homework to find out.

There is no evidence I haven't kept up with current events Sara and it's beyond the pale that you think I need to "do the homework" babe.

"Do your own homework. Pathetic. "

Are you kidding me? I haven't seen any substance from Sara. There has been plenty of substance from me.

This thing has deteriorated into a pediatric Republican base of name callers who are too lazy to study the issues.

You're wrong about many things and you're projecting some kind of delusion in making up things about my background that you have no way to verify.

glasater

I think of healthcare as a business and not a right but do realize that most folks don't look at it that way. I don't blame insurance companies but do blame the government for making the rules under which they have to operate.

chch16

Glaster maybe if you went through a little med school and residency and spent years fighting with insurance companies and saw how much time and money you have to spend because they try to jerk around reimbursement and how medicine has evolved in this way you'd rethink your attitude towards insurance companies. Maybe if you had an indepth grasp of medications and how to use them and years of experience doing it, and trying to get your patients covered insurance wise and medication wise you'd rething a lot of this.

You did make a good point though on the passports. I've seen nothing but horror stories and the buck stops at Chertoff and Condi. They created the mess. It was an executive decision, not a Congressional one.

chch16

Glasater--sorry for the mispelling--pssst believe me--don't be naive. The insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies wrote the crappy health care bill that Bill Frist ushered through the Senate and the conference commmittee. They always do. Billy Tauzig got a 2 million dollar lobbying job the second he quit the House. And Fred Thompson got a ton of money as a lobbyist--about $700,000 a year just for getting Phillip Morris access to Bill Frist.

Pal2Pal (Sara)

Yada yada yada. More of the same. Too bad I'm not a Republican. As to health care, I've seen government run health care from the inside and if you want absolute bare bones care, then that's the way to go. I supplemented my Navy care with private insurance. And I have more than a passing knowledge of senior health services after 4 1/2 years of 24/7 care for my Mother after her strokes. She also had BC supplemental insurance which was a sacrifice for her to pay for on a small retirement income so she wasn't held hostage by the Medicare system. And 11 major surgeries personally, some in the private health care system, some in the government system tells me that the former has lots of wasteful expense and the latter falls sadly short of quality care for noncombat related issues. And since I broke my back and had to stop working, I've had no health insurance and I don't expect to have any coverage until I'm old enough for Medicare at 65. So, save your whining. And stop blaming JOM commenters or individual Republicans for things that are systemic and bureaucratic. For instance, just a couple of weeks ago, I had over $60 in long distance phone charges, mostly from sitting on hold for as long as two hours at a time, several times, and hours of document collection, letter writing, and faxing to prove to some bureaucratic clerk who made a typo that I was not deceased and that they needed to reinstate my Navy retirement check. I guess from your point of view that would be Secretary Gates' fault, or for sure, George Bush's fault as Commander-in-Chief, but me, I blame the stupid clerk who put an X in the wrong box on a Direct Deposit request. I blame the Teacher's Union for turning out illiterates and sending them off to work for the government.

MJW

chch16, if you must use tags, please use Preview.

Maybeex

Tops: Fitzgerald himself opposed any independent inquiry at this time by Congress.
-------

The interesting thing about that, Tops, is that Walton made the argument that Fitzgerald's appointment, if unconstitutional, served the purpose of being independent from the executive branch. An ad-hoc 4th branch, if you will.
Yet Congress can legitimately investigate the executive branch and is a constitutionally created branch of government.
It seems Congress had the better claim on the investigation.

Pal2Pal (Sara)

And I cannot remember the last time I had an American doctor. My doctors in the last 20 years have been Korean, Pakistani, Indian (from India), Vietnamese, and Chinese. My Mother's doctors were Chinese (3), Pakistani and Korean. Most of the time you leave hoping you understood what they told you because the accents are so heavy, it is nearly impossible to understand them. I guess the last American born doctor I had was a Navy Flight Surgeon turned OB/GYN.

PeterUK.

"chch16:

So, are you saying you're a lawyer?"

I take to be NO

PeterUK.

MOST DEFINITELY NO

Stobo Blobo

It's obvious that chch16 suffers from MPD or has another personality disorder, is bipolar, and/or has more than one person posting behind that moniker.

PeterUK.

Stobo Blobo,

chch16 certainly has a cranial obesity problem.

lurker9876

Time to clean out the litter box.

Jane

Nice reply brief! Rick, thanks for posting it - Ralph, thanks for making it possible.

Rick Ballard

SB,

It's just ferris in a new dress. TM needs to tell him to get off and then go after him through his ISP provider.

I think Peter even has him pegged as to location and identity - dorm doofus in SF or something similiar.

clarice

For those of you who share my low opinion of Kerry you will not be surprised to learn per Drudge that he backs the fairness doctrine. Of course, he would. He had Newsweek and all the msm editors lined up to cover for him in 2004 and look what happened--damned free speech.

cathyf

Geez, Rick, how do you keep track of them all? Have you ever considered that if you could free up those brain cells for something useful you would be a genius? (Sort of like how I can remember the alto part of a song I sang 5 times 20 years ago, but I can't remember where I put my car keys last night!)

MikeS

Fairness Doctrine

Liberals have been trying to remove dissenting opinion from academia, newspapers and TV News, and now from radio. They call that fairness, diversity, and progressivism.

Bill in AZ

There is a mockingbird that twitters endlessly outside my window day and night, just repeats random disconnected things it has heard elsewhere, never a song of it's own... reminds me of cheche16

Jane

There are two new threads demanding attention!

Other Tom

I take this "fairness doctrine" crap very seriously. In general, Democrats have always supported it, and did so long before they started getting killed by talk radio.

If it were renewed, I think there might be a very interesting constitutional challenge to it. The original rationale was based on the scarcity of bandwidth, thus necessitating the licensing of broadcasters and all that followed from that licensing. But that was before the internet or satellite TV existed, and in the very early days of cable TV. Except for newspapers and magazines, everything came over the air.

But forget about whether that rationale still exists. A Democrat congress is very likely to pass it, and Hillary would be happy to sign it. Existing Supreme Court precedent, although "outdated," is still the law. And can anyone count on the folks who last year upheld the major portion of the McCain-Feingold nightmare to strike it down on First Amendment grounds? Can anyone imagine Stevens, Breyer, Souter or Ginsburg holding it unconsitutional? And does anyone have any idea what Anthony Kennedy would do? This could be very bad news...

Jane

Hell it would harder to administer than the Amnesty bill - so I bet the left would content itself to only policing talk radio - except NPR and forgeting everything else.

Frankly I'm shocked that anyone supports it at all. Then again, these days I'm shocked at most things.

clarice

I agree. And I think it's never too late to take it on, OT. If you'd care to write a piece on it, I'd be glad to help you get it on AT or if you'd like to co-author one, whistle. It's time to mount a serious response to it.

PeterUK.

Mr Ballard,
"It's just ferris in a new dress."
Yes,seems to be a SF SF thing.

Other Tom

Clarice, I'll see if I can find enough of the legal background on the web to give it a shot.

clarice

Let's throw in some other stuff, too, OT--like the meeting in NY with Kerry and the newsies and Evans 15% and how they ignored the Swifties and now falsely refer to them as "discredited"
Also Fred Friendly's book referred to in today's Baltimore Observer (cite at Instapundit) about how the Kennedy's loved and manipulated the fairness doctrine..

danking

"Glaster maybe if you went through a little med school and residency and spent years fighting with insurance companies and saw how much time and money you have to spend because they try to jerk around reimbursement and how medicine has evolved in this way you'd rethink your attitude towards insurance companies. Maybe if you had an indepth grasp of medications and how to use them and years of experience doing it, and trying to get your patients covered insurance wise and medication wise you'd rething a lot of this."

Sounds like ChiChi is a doctor and a lawyer or Wile E. Coyote, Super Genius.

cathyf

I also predict that the "fairness" doctrine would be no where near as cozy in a modern form. Like when some ad-hoc group of citizens forms on the net and sues to get The West Wing taken off the air. And the left-wing propaganda being passed off as "news" at the radio stations' hourly "news" breaks. And NPR can broadcast nothing but back-to-back reruns of Prairie Home Companion and Car Talk, the former heavily bawdlerized to remove the left-wing advocacy.

What's that Ancient Chinese Curse -- something about getting what you asked for?

danking

Cathyf,

are you thinking "May you live in interesting times"?

clarice

True enforcement of any "fairness doctrine" would put MSNBC out of business, wouldn't it?

chch16

Again, no one counters any of my arguments just name calling and aspersions cast out of pure ignorance.

MJW--I am previewing and I haven't been able to shake the Italics at least early this AM. I do close all my tags--in fact I put them in a box that does the html automatically first so they are all previewed.

Whatever italicized everone that was posting hours ago was a control by someone who admins the group--it didn't come from me. I can't italicize what others post.

@Sara--once again someone asuming what I didn't type. I never stated you were a Republican but there seems to be a lot of Republican base here.

A lot of foreign born docs help make up the infrastructure of our med schools and teaching hospitals as residents, training residents. But if you don't understand your doctor on a visit, you have to find a way to see someone you understand so that you aren't guessing, and make sure you take the time to ask every question that you have, and get it answered adequately. That's essential.

@Peter--I don't answer personal questions to people who choose rather than to debate the issues to sling name calling as a response. I haven't asked you any personal questions and I don't feel comfortable answering them when someone is so hostile.

I'll tell you I'm very familiar with the federal appellate system and I can analyze a motion, brief, etc and I know the backgrounds of most of the federal judges in the 12 circuits, and a large number of them are died in the wool"conservatives" no more so Bushie automatons than 14/17 of the D.C. Circuit. I can't imagine you know the nuances of the circuits and their precedents if you have always lived in the U.K. I expect you want "free scootie." You might get that but it will be as a pardon or because an en banc court in the D.C. Circuit would have freed him if he had raped their mothers.

Had Bush had the usual balls of ignoring anyone who isn't his base, he would have pulled the trigger and freed little scootie who lied to protect Bush,Cheney, and Rove and various members of White House Counsel, past and in Kelly's case as an assistant to Fred Fielding, present.

Concentrate on the substance of what I say. If you have issues with it, offer alternativesto it and butress them with your reasons, or links, but calling names wastes peoples' times. We understand everyone learned that defense mechanism as a child, but some of you cling to thast childhood form of acting out instead of just concentrating on the issues.

I must say I know plenty of lawyers who find Robbins' assertions on the inferior officer controversy in the conntext of the way Robbins parses Morrison ludicrous. Some are currently working for DOJ and others have worked for DOJ and have many years in the Defense Bar.

Robbins seems to argue pathetically that Morrison does not control the appointment of Fitz because as US Attorney of the Northern District of Illinois he was applied by the executive branch. At least at the time, they were calling it the Executive Branch. Bush and Cheney manufacture childish bullshit about what branch they belong to depending on the hour of the day because they are letting Addington's loose cannon personality cause their newly horrible publicity which has irked the hell out of the attorneys in the U.S. Senate--i.e. the Republicans in the minority now on the Senate Judiciary committee who have let Cheney's office and Bush know already.

Fitz was confirmed as US Attorney with advice and consent of the Senate Judiciary Committe who reported their approval out to the entire Senate floor who voted to confirm him.

Robbins ridiculously argues this case is governed by Edmond. He actually says,and I quote from his brief and he could not be more wrong as to the simple fact of confirmation:

"the executive branch not Congress creates the appointment that is under question and cites Weiss v. U.S. as his authority.

He's really grasping at straws and any panel would kick this to the curb. I recognize the voting record of the D.C. Circuit Bushie autmatons, but I think they will find this laughable as much as they'd like to help Bush, Cheney, and Rove protect their lying and reject Robbins' reasoning.

Come on pepes--it's time to call me a name for voicing my opinion on Robbins' reasoning--that's what you seem to be best at.

Our Clarice, the attorney writer can jump in with a Gush--she thinks Robbins' is the hottest thing on the planet but I'd like to see what she admires about this brief not hear the gushing endorsements that I know the base has for anything that moves that protects Cheney, Rove, and Bush from lying.

Fitz is a US Attorney who is a joint appointment first and formost and actually neither Morrison or Edmond is an onpoint controlling fit for his situation. It was novel and foolish IMO for Robbins to argue the way he has.

The reason for the notion of the inferior officer is to prevent a Special Counsel's investigation and the subsequent court activity from going out of control and it hasn't. Had I been Fitz I would have indicted Karl Rove for lying to the Grand Jury. He cut Rove a break. I would have also indicted Rove on the leak, but it is a ridiculously vaguely written law written in part by Vicki Tonseltongue Toensing and it was intentionally written to make it next to impossible to prosecute.

Libby, and Tom Maguire expressed this perfectly, on this blog, was given every chance to fess up and Fitz would have let him off the hook that is now imbedded in him. Tom could not have made this more clear, and I agree.

Robbins argues and it's a fatal argument that Fitz's appointment should have come straight from Congress and only Congress so Edmond is on point and controlling.

He needs to lobby Congress to make a change in the code, not the Court. It's hardly a close question for anyone who has passed the first year and a half of a decent law school.

In any normal appellate venue, Scootie Scoot has a heavy uphill burden, and I understand those of you who prey for his reversal or a pardon are embarassed by his behavior and that of Rove and Cheney and Addington. You damn well should be, but that doesn't change the facts of the case and the case law that does not apply to this case.

BTW I haven't used any html in this post, so if it's in italics, or whatever, it has nothing to do with anything I've done. Further, often when you are signed in and it says "you are currently signed in" there is a huge bug that kicks in when you preview of post 50% of the time that says "Error you are not signed in and you have to put up a new "post a comment window" and copy/paste into it when you're already signed in. One of the mods should get this fixed.

Bill in AZ nothing I've posted is because I heard it elsewhere and it's typical to see you claiming ESP.

My healthcare positions are based on a lifetime of experience that you don't have and I'm welcoming you to counter any of 'em. Bring it tough guy.

Tamiflu has efficacy and not resistance for pandemic right?

There are no patients that doctors have to struggle to get reimbursed over?

Pharmaceuticals' pricing is not heavily jacked up and that was supported by Congress.

Frist and Tuazig were paid huge sums of money for access to Frist when the Republicans controlled Congress (an event that isn't likely to happen again for a long long time thanks to their lame behavior with no oversight and your boys Cheney, Bush and Rove).

@ Stobo Blobo--Again rather than offer facts to counter me, you're calling names and casting aspersions and one form of childish name calling is for people to flame by reaching into the little of DSMIV that they've heard of in everyday culture.

@Mike S. *Conservatives* "have been trying to remove dissenting opinion from academia, newspapers and TV News, and now from radio."


chch16

I was sure as hell right about the italicizing of the fonts a few hours ago--it had absolutely nothing to do with me closing anything. It was mod mediated or a bug.

Why doesn't this blog fix the bug that forces many of us to sign in repeatedly--it's not impacting just one person.

clarice

PDNFTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The comments to this entry are closed.

Wilson/Plame