Opening The Door For Gore

I am stunned by the latest about Barack Obama, from Nedra Pickler of the AP:

                        WASHINGTON - Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama said Wednesday that he would possibly send troops into Pakistan to hunt down terrorists, an attempt to show strength when his chief rival has described his foreign policy skills as naive.

The Illinois senator warned Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf that he must do more to shut down terrorist operations in his country and evict foreign fighters under an Obama presidency, or Pakistan will risk a U.S. troop invasion and losing hundreds of millions of dollars in U.S. military aid.

"Let me make this clear," Obama said in a speech prepared for delivery at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars. "There are terrorists holed up in those mountains who murdered 3,000 Americans. They are plotting to strike again. It was a terrible mistake to fail to act when we had a chance to take out an al-Qaida leadership meeting in 2005. If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will."

The excerpts were provided by the Obama campaign in advance of the speech.

Hmm, the "Let me make this clear" bit makes it hard to believe this is an out-of-context misquote.

Well.  As has been mooted for years,  Musharraf has the strength of weakness - if we push him too hard he might, he might be replaced and nuclear Pakistan might be run by someone much worse.

I really don't know what Obama is thinking here.  The offered explanation - "an attempt to show strength when his chief rival has described his foreign policy skills as naive" - is troubling, yet strangely plausible; for more on the "See How They Run" Dems voguing for profiles in courage, turn to the Anon Lib pondering the Dems haste to amend FISA to Bush's liking.

I'll guess this keeps the Gore flame flickering - I understand he is happy doing his current thing, but someone will sit down and engage in a frank and rank appeal to his ego, insisting that this is not about Al but about saving the planet - Obama is dangerously inexperienced, Hillary is unelectable, but Al can stave off Evil Rudy (or Evil Fred) and save the planet.

As to the policy itself - I have no doubt that when Rumsfeld's decision to cancel the "invasion of Pakistan" was reported in the Times a few weeks back the reflexive Bush-bashers bashed this (some flavor at Memeorandum).  However... even if one thinks that we should have risked the collapse of the Musharraf government over this raid, I can't imagine that people further believe we should have announced out intentions in advance, as Obama is doing here - couldn't we at least preserve some implausible deniability, or wait until we have a few high-value captives to parade before we admit to violating the Pakistani border?

My other thought is that Obama is carrying a particular Dem notion to a logical extreme.  Bush has said for years that the War on Terror is not simply about Osama bin Laden.  In opposition, some Dems (I am thinking of Kerry's 2004 run) decided to make Bush's failure to catch Osama at Tora Bora a centerpiece of their campaign.  Which has now brought us here.

I will be very curious to see how Hillary and Richardson react to this.

MORE:  From AllahPundit at Hot Air we learn that last September Bush said he would order US troops into Pakistan to kill or capture Bin Laden.

That's an interesting double-switch - do reflexive Bush bashers now feel obliged to bash Obama?

Here is the speech; Jim Geraghty of NRO has a fun breakdown (Of the speech!  I assume Jim's nerves are fine.)

Comments

[HoosierHoops]

And I say that thinking all the Dem candidates are truly third raters at the outset.

-clarice
A very weak field indeed..
It's really is too bad that Sen. Evan Bayh (D. IND) doesn't have the money or moderate democratic backing to run for Prez.
He's smart, handsome, articulate and moderate in his views...
( I know, I know..I'm a homer )

[PeterUK]

The Democrat candidates seem to be mirroring the adolescent nutroots.

[hit and run]

Do read James Robbins' take over at NRO on the Obama speech yesterday, with good historical background on the mission Rumsfeld shot down that Obama was using to say he would go in -- as well the missions we have undertaken to attack al Qaeda in the Waziristan region.

Good stuff.

Of course, I'm drawn, quite naturally, to the zinger:

You would think with the technical and human means at our disposal we could have sorted the problem out by now. It’s nice to imagine that all it would take to accomplish the mission is to send in some special operators to slap on the yellow restraints and drag the perps back to face justice. I see Dog the Bounty Hunter playing a key counterterrorism role in the Obama administration.

[hit and run]

Oh, and just to put this in here, since TM's first premise was that this might open the door for Gore...I will just remind all that Gore used to be an ass grabber.

He since has renounced it of course -- but did he renounce it as a BDS response -- and would he have a change of his change of heart if given the levers of power?

I say unlikely, just as I say a Gore candidacy is still very unlikely, but I would like any Gore-lovin nutrooters to keep it in mind.

[PeterUK]

There was a young man called Obama
who saw himself as a charmer.
Then he invaded Pakistan
and the Fatwas began,
now Obama has rather bad karma.

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

Dennis Miller had an interview with Thomas Lifson http://www.dennismillerradio.com/programhighlights?pid=1489 today. Let it load, then move the little triangle thingy about 1/3 of the way to the 40 minute mark, to catch it.

[clarice]

I missed it, pls share the highlights Patrick.

[Rick Ballard]

Clarice,

Click the link, let it load to 100% and then go to 46 minutes (look on the Dennis Miller Show bar). I'm listening now - they're talking about Thom's NYT scorcher today.

[Elliott]

Hoosierhoops and Semanticleo,

May Providence shepherd your sons, you, and your families.

[lurker9876]

Hoosierhoops,

God bless you and your son, too.

[TerryeL]

I too hail from the Hoosier state and for the life of me I do not know why the Democrats pass over a guy like Bayh for the likes of Hillary Clinton.

This is not a liberal state and yet Bayh was a popular Governor.

[clarice]

Thanks,Patrick and Rick. To keep it a bit more peaceful around here, I've never turned the sound on my computer. I'll email it over to my husband's and listen to it later.

[MikeS]

I understand that Bubarooni was engaged in parody, but the more I think about it the more I want one of those Neocon Warpig t-shirts.

[LindaK]

Perhaps in trying to analyze what Obama said we are going down the wrong track. His ongoing idiocies can only be the words of the clueless. We may be assuming some thought behind his proclaimations. Here's more of what he said:

"No more ignoring the law when it is inconvenient. That is not who we are. And it is not what is necessary to defeat the terrorists. The FISA court works. The separation of powers works. Our Constitution works. We will again set an example for the world that the law is not subject to the whims of stubborn rulers, and that justice is not arbitrary.

This Administration acts like violating civil liberties is the way to enhance our security. It is not. There are no short-cuts to protecting America, and that is why the fifth part of my strategy is doing the hard and patient work to secure a more resilient homeland.

Too often this Administration's approach to homeland security has been to scatter money around and avoid hard choices, or to scare Americans without telling them what to be scared of, or what to do. A Department set up to make Americans feel safer didn't even show up when bodies drifted through the streets in New Orleans. That's not acceptable.

My Administration will take an approach to homeland security guided by risk."

In other words, waiting for an attack. And he's ruled out nukes. Obama must be a source of constant hilarity of Osama. I'm starting to think that this ex-state legislator doesn't even deserve to be a senator. He's starting to sound like Cindy Sheehan with a better vocabulary.

[Topsecretk9]

no link at drudge yet - but

Plame loses her lawsuit against CIA, and will not be allowed to publish her memoir if it includes her dates of service...

[Jane]

Well that's fun news TS!

[hit and run]

Tops:
Plame loses her lawsuit against CIA, and will not be allowed to publish her memoir if it includes her dates of service...

On a scale of 1-10 where 1 is President Barack Hussein Obama
and 10 is mrs hit and run coming home tonight, that story is a 5.

Now if 10 was me winning the lottery, that story would be a 9.

And a half.

[PeterUK]

More fun on Plame

[hit and run]

Obama (from LindaK):
A Department set up to make Americans feel safer

The Department of Homeland Security Blankies

[clarice]

I can imagine some good reasons why they wouldn't want her to publish the dates of her service--for example that would prove the referral was a crock.

[cathyf]

Hmmm... If Plame's dates of service show that the referral was a crock, would Judy Miller have any cause for action?

[Topsecretk9]

Seems is disappeared off Drudge.

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

In the third hour Dennis Miller had Col. Buzz Patterson on, and he asked him about what it was like working for Bill Clinton.

Patterson said he liked Bill, it was fun to work with him. But when Hillary showed up the atmosphere went from frat party to nazi concentration camp pretty fast.

To which, Miller responded; if he had been Clinton, he'd have told him to open the nuclear football and use it on her.

[maryerose]

Patrick sullivan:
This is exactly why she will not win the presidency. Hil is not well-liked. She swears like a trooper and runs everything like a boot camp. I bet it is not much fun on her campaign trips. Everyone is walking in lockstep,parroting the same lines like "I've got the scars to prove it"about her healthcare attempt. Creepy...Also at 48% unfavorable she doesn't get that 50% majority. Women out there...Wake Up and Smell the coffee!

[PeterUK]

"To which, Miller responded; if he had been Clinton, he'd have told him to open the nuclear football and use it on her."

Perhaps that's why Bill kept blowing the shit out of things,the girl is just nimble on her feet.

[hoosierhoops]

Too often this Administration's approach to homeland security has been to scatter money around and avoid hard choices, or to scare Americans without telling them what to be scared of, or what to do. A Department set up to make Americans feel safer didn't even show up when bodies drifted through the streets in New Orleans...
LindaK

My computer freaked out in my last post..typepad rocks..not..:)
let me recap something you didn't read..
American don't know what to be afraid of?
Right..where were you 9-11?
We know EXACTLY what the price is here..
Too bad you and the left wing talking wonks have forgotten..
( I'm leaving out our 9-11 experience here..you don't care anyway)
Now LindaK..Have you lost any civil liberties? Which one? Pony up..I'll pony up and pay you a 1000 dollars for each right you have lost...
if you call a middle eastern country and our gov't monitors your call..don't you dare say you lost shit..You haven't lost one right..There is not one legal thing you can't do..unless it's to harm me or my family or america..
So pony up linda..what have you lost in this war? Our Soldiers and Marines have lost thier precious lives to protect us..
what have you lost?
and don't bring a natural disaster into this discussion...We are talking war and you are talking weather..
I'll drop this now..cause typepad will probably blow this down anyway...Hey linda..here is you chance to make the big bucks..list the civil liberties you personally have been stripped of...

[Rick Ballard]

HH,

LindaK was "quoting" Obama. Perhaps people who are unfamiliar with the HTML blockquote command could use a ---------------------- separator top and bottom of long quotes? Just using "" leads to misunderstanding.

[hoosierhoops]

One last thing..
Hit & Run..congrads on having your family return home safe..I'll bet you are in 7th heaven..
( What No witty posts tonight? hehehe)
To all of you bloggers that wished our son well in Iraq..your prayers and best wishes mean everything to us.. I showed my wife the posts and it brought tears to her eyes..
I wish you all well and the appreciation you have shown to our Marines,Soldiers, Sailors and National Guard bodes well for all of america...Kind regards..

[hoosierhoops]

oh crap Rick.. LindaK I am so sorry..
my bad..

[Rick Ballard]

HH,

I only knew because I had to read it twice. The first time I was thinking "What the hell is she spouting?" - and then I realized that she was quoting Oblabby.

[PeterUK]

OTDoctor injured in mercy dash to Glasgow Airport has died of his burns

[PeterUK]

OTDoctor injured in mercy dash to Glasgow Airport has died of his burns

[Not to be technical...]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_internationalism

[Zoe]

No, you're saying we should have hit Pakistan first.

No, I'm saying we should have hit Afghanistan first. And we should have sent more troops to Afghanistan. And we should not have invaded Iraq.

[boris]

my bad..

I saw it was a quote but my reaction to the content was pretty much the same.

[Zoe]

An invasion of Iran is perfectly feasible.

It's true. Armani-jihad will greet us with flowers. Dick Cheney said so. Oh, and the insurgency in Iraq is in its last throes.

[arrowhead]

"No, I'm saying we should have hit Afghanistan first."

-------------------

We did.

[Rick Ballard]

Mr Uk,

John Dunne is proven wrong once again, eh?

BTW - do you really think that this new brand of "Teh Stoopid" is actually a retread?

[PeterUK]

"And we should have sent more troops to Afghanistan".

We have been through this before,Afghanistan is landlocked,here is a MAP get somebody at the remedial institution you are incarcerated in to explain it to you.
Sheesh,why does Zoe the retard have to turn up at this time of night?

[PeterUK]

Mr Ballard,
It has a few of the characteristic of pete,sferris,Memo,prolific,invincibly stupid ,same style of argument and the attitude of an un-housetrained polecat.

[Topsecretk9]

No, I'm saying we should have hit Afghanistan first. And we should have sent more troops to Afghanistan. And we should not have invaded Iraq.

Chickenhawk.

[Cecil Turner]

It's true. Armani-jihad will greet us with flowers. Dick Cheney said so.

A perfect illustration of the contention that Obama is playing to a very easy crowd. "Feasible" has a specific meaning in military planning parlance . . . it means "Can accomplish the mission within the established time, space, and resource limitations." [emphasis added]. So, if one has sufficient forces available to invade a country, adequate logistics, and a workable staging area to launch the attack from, one says it's "feasible." An invasion of Iran meets this criteria, an invasion of Pakistan does not. (That's not to say it's a good idea . . .that'd fall under the heading of "acceptable" which roughly means "worth the cost." It just means it's possible.) Note this has little or nothing to do with flower greetings or lack thereof.

To put this in terms you might be able to understand: we can't invade Pakistan--whether we want to or not--because we're physically incapable of doing so. (Invading Iran might be a bad idea, but it's physically possible.) So if Senator Obama is suggesting we ought to, then that's equivalent to saying something like "we ought to enlist the aid of Peter Pan and the Lost Boys" . . . and that'd be stupid. But again, as far as I can tell, he didn't suggest an invasion was a possibility. You, however, did.

[hoosierhoops]

Sheesh,why does Zoe the retard have to turn up at this time of night?

Posted by: PeterUK
Peter..isn't it like 6am for you in Europe?
the time difference must kill you..
Not to get personal or anything..I have a good friend in Sefton Park...Are you close to there? We love Europe and visit every Single year..Hint: Jealousy abounds.. :)

[Cecil Turner]

It's only four hours time difference between the East Coast and Greenwich (in the summer, 5 in winter). Besides, those guys are all hoot owls by US standards.

[RichatUF]

Rick

...they're talking about Thom's NYT scorcher today...

I'm still ticked. I thought the Bancroft's were going get sued until DJ was down around 15$/share. Some made money on the trade, not me...

Zoe

No, I'm saying we should have hit Afghanistan first. And we should have sent more troops to Afghanistan. And we should not have invaded Iraq.

Good call. I think you should publish, you might just be the next Sun-Tzu. So if we wouldn't have liberated Iraq where would you suppose the internation jihad and tranzi left would surged in assets?

[MikeS]

...we should have sent more troops to Afghanistan

I understand that people want to bring bin-Laden to justice, but what's the deal after that?

Is al Qaeda going to go out of business when Osama dies? Will al Qaeda in Iraq change its name to "the terrorist group formerly known as al Qaeda in Iraq?"

How about all the other terrorist groups? Will they renounce violence once Osama is gone?

What about Obama? He says, if we leave Iraq, al Qaeda will stop raising hell there. Is that a rule?
Do the terrorists know this rule?

[Topsecretk9]

Well, here is all I've found

Ex-spy ordered to keep mum

Valerie Plame might be the best known former intelligence operative in recent history, but a federal judge in New York ruled that she was not allowed to say how long she worked for the Central Intelligence Agency in the memoir she plans to publish this fall. Although the fact that Plame worked for the CIA from 1985 to 2006 has been published in the Congressional Record and elsewhere, the judge, Barbara Jones of U.S. District Court in Manhattan, said Plame was not free to say so.

http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/nation/08/03/0803natbriefs.html

[Topsecretk9]

and...fyi - appointed by...

District Judge Barbara S. Jones 1995 - Bill Clinton

[Topsecretk9]

this was Mr. Rothberg, of Simon & Schuster, said the dates of Ms. Wilson's service were "just one item in the publication review process, but it's one we feel strongly about." The publisher is said to have paid about $2 million for the book, a figure Mr. Rothberg would not confirm.

and a pretty good re-ax, I guess

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/060407H.shtml

[Topsecretk9]

I've been digging around in TM's time machine and suddenly I think cryptic commenter finally makes some sense ( I think)

I'm going to fill in - rearrange what I think is sorta missing/means - Original Cryptic commenter here

Dates of Service is just a list of dates and this is all Plame ordered. It is usually used for employment verification purposes and sent directly to the potential employer. For instance this could have been for the book or movie people. The description of service is ordered seperately by the federal employee. Federal employees dates of service have to be ordered by the employer (book or movie people) or there is no confirmation that the potential employee was ever employed (at CIA). This process is secret like most federal employees. The description of service is ordered seperately. So, Plame's issue might be that she just ordered a Dates of Service, not a Description of Service.

The publication of the Description of Service is not Plame's decision, but she has ordered and sent it to an employer. The employer may (Not?) release that information as part of the employment or job.

Plame was just secret like most federal employees.

Covert, etc. is how most federal employees that work in the IC or deal with the IC may be classified. Under some laws, anyone can be covert at an IC agency. Plame was originally called an agency operative. There are alot of agencies at Congress and now two more: Geospacial Intelligence Agency and the one at energy. The idea that Novack would make a mistake in saying she was an operative at an agency is that there are operatives at most agencies. Novack would, in effect, be exposing one of these operatives at another agency that may not work with CIA or the others for a specific reason. This is where Novak made his mistake. If you study Plame, it is obvious that this is what she is doing, but there are all kinds of classified --federal and other employees. Novak could have been accused of leaking these and Plame confirmed herself in the past.

National Security damage is generally checked by US citizens being affected. In CIA, Plame may have gotten some foreign operations officers in Iraq killed and there might have been bombing is Spain, but no US citizens were killed. So, like Ames, that's okay. The proof that she did get some US citizens killed and agents is classified.

Posted by: qquirl | June 04, 2007 at 10:54 AM

OK, well maybe not so much...perhaps she requested the Date of Service and was not supposed to share it? I dunno

[richard mcenroe]

You know, I take no small comfort from the fact that every one of the Democrats' potential presidential candidates serves in a body the public gives an 86% disapproval rating...

[Jane]

I understand that people want to bring bin-Laden to justice, but what's the deal after that?

Exactly. Typical liberal baloney. The war is bin Laden. After that, sweetness, light and lots of negotiation to prove al Qaida with the resources to rebuild bigger and better.

[PeterUK]

The military strategies of the Great Khan orObama has made an an impression on a UK blog.

[PeterUK]

We should view bin Laden in the same way Churchill viewed Hitler,the man is more of an asset free than dead or captured. 9/11 from the point of view of al Qaeda was a monumental strategic error,Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto is portrayed in the 1970 film Tora! Tora! Tora!, as saying after his attack on Pearl Harbor, "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."
Not all of you admittedly, but enough to get a lot of fanatics killed.

[TerryeL]

So, is Zoe saying we should tell NATO to take a hike?

[Jane]

lots of negotiation to prove al Qaida

prove=provide - sheesh

[hit and run]

Pakistan says to Obama: "Thanks a lot dumbass"

I put it in quotes, contra Rick's advice last night to LindaK, intentionally to try and mislead readers into thinking that is a direct quote from the article.

It's not. But who cares about the truth, it fits the narrative.

[Sara]

Judge Backs C.I.A. in Suit on Memoir

I hope someone can explain this to me, 'cuz I don't get it. Why is the CIA playing this game? What is being hidden and by whom?

[Sara]

This Plame thing with the dates seems bizarre to me and James Joyner says it "appears awfully silly," yet the judge says she is satisfied with Kappes reasons and that it is a national security issue.

Joyner:

The judge’s ruling is almost certainly legally correct, although the result seems bizarre. Obviously, Kappes hasn’t shared his reasoning with me. I can’t fathom, however, what it might have been.

Book Blog had this coverage back in January:

The [CIA’s Publications Review Board] refused Plame permission to even mention that she worked for the CIA because she served as a “nonofficial cover” officer (or NOC) posing as a private businesswoman, according to an adviser to Plame, who asked not to be identified discussing a sensitive issue. “She believes this will effectively gut the book,” said the adviser. Larry Johnson, a former colleague, said the agency’s action seems punitive, given that other ex-CIA undercover officers have published books. But even Plame’s friends acknowledge that few NOCs have done so. CIA spokesman Mark Mansfield said the panel was still having “ongoing” talks with Plame to resolve the dispute. “The sole yardstick,” he said, is that books “contain no classified information.”

That she worked as a NOC is public information, solely because the CIA chose to make it so. Therefore, keeping it classified appears awfully silly.

Were Plame/Wilson seeking to publish juicy details of classified ops, reveal trade secrets, or the like, they should obviously be allowed to stop her. But the dates of her employment? Even aside from the Congressional Record, her retirement announcement received worldwide attention.

[hit and run]

From the NYT article:

Mr. Rothberg [spokesman for Simon & Schuster, publisher of Val's epic work] said that aspect of Judge Jones’s ruling was particularly frustrating.

“Trying to argue a case in which the government was able to submit a supersecret affidavit which we were not able to review was like playing an opponent who has 53 cards in his deck,” he said.

Notwithstanding more relevant topics regarding the case, he ain't talking about poker. Or blackjack. Or gin rummy. Or go fish.

Is he talking about nertz? Or spit? Is it advantageous to have an extra card in a game where you're trying to get rid of all your cards?

Or is there another game where two opponents are playing from their own deck of cards that I am not remembering or of which I am unaware?

I'm vexed.

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

That she worked as a NOC is public information....

Actually, she wasn't a NOC. She worked out of the embassy in Athens with State Dept cover. Later she worked with NATO cover.

The Brewster-Jennings fiction was just something for her to put on a credit app.

[Cecil Turner]

Couple of interesting articles linked by Glenn. The first is a remarkably gloomy treatise by Phil Carter that surge results don't matter:

Unless it is paired with a successful political strategy that consolidates military gains and translates increased security into support from the Iraqi people, these security improvements will, over time, be irrelevant.

Left unsaid, of course, is the assumption that we'll leave before the Iraqi government is capable of functioning (which is, coincidentally, his bottom-line recommendation).

Meanwhile, Jonah Goldberg has discovered that democracy in the MidEast is a long-term strategy:

. . . the near total consensus among the invited foreign policy intellectuals was that Western-style democracy in Iraq is a pipe dream. “We could do it,” one panelist said. “It would take about 100 years, but we could do it.”

Does it seem to anyone else that the level of debate on this subject is disturbingly shallow? One might even suspect that the results are foreordained, and more related to domestic political fallout than national interests? Naaaah, couldn't be.

[clarice]

I don't know that there is "democracy" other than "Western style". At least I can't think of any on a national scale.

I'd settle for a major improvement over Saddam and forget most perfect..something only nations with a Protestant (or in a singular case,Jewish) heritage seem to be capable of over a longer term--although Catholic origin Spain, Italy and France are coming to it at last. (Closer looks at their actual laws reveal their notions are far from identical to ours which is rarely mentioned.)

[Rick Ballard]

"Does it seem to anyone else that the level of debate on this subject is disturbingly shallow?"

It pretty much has to be. The enshrinement of compatibility with sharia (with sharia given primacy) in the Iraqi constitution obviated any chance for for true protection of the individual and minority rights which underpin "Western" democracy. They have a small shot at mob rule, perhaps a decent shot if the Iraqi Army can be brought to the same level of proficiency as the Turkish army.

Looked at in a different manner, if the logical incoherence of mixing shariah and democracy were examined closely, could the premise of a "democratic" Iraq be sold to any but the most gullible?

[Cecil Turner]

The enshrinement of compatibility with sharia (with sharia given primacy) in the Iraqi constitution obviated any chance for for true protection of the individual and minority rights which underpin "Western" democracy.

I dunno. Seems to me that there are some mutually contradictory precepts on that subject in their constitution, and that folks can rationalize and compromise on just about anything, if it becomes necessary for their own welfare. But in any event, that's not what I meant.

Carter, supposedly well-informed on the subject, claims there's no hope for "victory" (which of course he doesn't define), and hence we ought to redeploy immediately. Goldberg, again considered somewhat astute, says we've had a major strategy shift because Western-style democracy isn't imminent. Neither contention survives a very casual poke in the premise.

Both of the critiques Glenn links are spot-on . . . Carter's basic contention is fundamentally unserious, and Stan Brown correctly points out that democracy in Iraq is more of a byproduct than a strategic goal. And while both articles made some good points, and were interesting reading, it was more in the head-scratching sense than for any actual big-picture illumination.

[memomachine]

Hmmm.

*shrug* you cannot force people into democracy. Heck look at Russia. All you can do is try and persuade them that it's the best idea out of a big bag of bad ideas.

And if they choose otherwise? Then that's their problem.

[LindaK]

Hey hoosier, I was quoting OBAMA, demonstrating the illogic and naivity of his plans when he is president. Didn't you see the "quotes"?

[boris]

I only noticed the quotes after detecting significant dissonance between the body of your post and 1st & last paragraph.

So don't take it personally. Hoosier was responding to the content and was actually ranting at Obama not you.

[boris]

perhaps a decent shot if the Iraqi Army can be brought to the same level of proficiency as the Turkish army

The US military is currently playing that role and I have no problem with that.

Whatever you call their "elected representitive form of government" stabilized by deus ex machina, as long as the relationship is mutually consensual, it is better than the alternatives IMO.

Until we know WTF is going to happen with Iran and Al Qaeda, this suits me just fine.

[clarice]

Mr, too, Boris..though we know if it isn't Switzerland by the next station break the gauche side of the debate will tag it a failure.

[cathyf]

Actually, all joking aside, Switzerland is probably an ideal example of a well-functioning democracy made up of people with a history of committing vicious sectarian violence against each other. The Swiss model includes real federalism, much more so than the US. It just works better if you keep people who loathe each other out of each other's business as much as possible.

[clarice]

Yes. I've always believed Iraq could work only with a federal system--with perhaps Baghdad treated as D.C. is--not a state but a municipality overseen by the Congress.

[turkishdelight]

Hi Kim :) You've got 2 e-mails from me in your sunny garden :)

[richard mcenroe]

*shrug* you cannot force people into democracy. Heck look at Massachusetts. All you can do is try and persuade them that it's the best idea out of a big bag of bad ideas.

And if they choose otherwise? Then that's their problem.

Fixed that for you.

[richard mcenroe]

*shrug* you cannot force people into democracy. Heck look at Massachusetts. All you can do is try and persuade them that it's the best idea out of a big bag of bad ideas.

And if they choose otherwise? Then that's their problem.

Fixed that for you.