Income Mobility - Moving On Up

The WSJ trumpets a Treasury study [press release, study] of income mobility in the US:

If you've been listening to Mike Huckabee or John Edwards on the Presidential trail, you may have heard that the U.S. is becoming a nation of rising inequality and shrinking opportunity. We'd refer those campaigns to a new study of income mobility by the Treasury Department that exposes those claims as so much populist hokum.

OK, "hokum" is our word. The study, to be released today, is a careful, detailed piece of research by professional economists that avoids political judgments. But what it does do is show beyond doubt that the U.S. remains a dynamic society marked by rapid and mostly upward income mobility. Much as they always have, Americans on the bottom rungs of the economic ladder continue to climb into the middle and sometimes upper classes in remarkably short periods of time.

Regression to the mean is a theme here:

The Treasury study examined a huge sample of 96,700 income tax returns from 1996 and 2005 for Americans over the age of 25. The study tracks what happened to these tax filers over this 10-year period. One of the notable, and reassuring, findings is that nearly 58% of filers who were in the poorest income group in 1996 had moved into a higher income category by 2005. Nearly 25% jumped into the middle or upper-middle income groups, and 5.3% made it all the way to the highest quintile.

Of those in the second lowest income quintile, nearly 50% moved into the middle quintile or higher, and only 17% moved down. This is a stunning show of upward mobility, meaning that more than half of all lower-income Americans in 1996 had moved up the income scale in only 10 years.

...

Those who start at the bottom but hold full-time jobs nonetheless enjoyed steady income gains. The Treasury study found that those tax filers who were in the poorest income quintile in 1996 saw a near doubling of their incomes (90.5%) over the subsequent decade. Those in the highest quintile, on the other hand, saw only modest income gains (10%). The nearby table tells the story, which is that the poorer an individual or household was in 1996 the greater the percentage income gain after 10 years.

Only one income group experienced an absolute decline in real income--the richest 1% in 1996. Those households lost 25.8% of their income. Moreover, more than half (57.4%) of the richest 1% in 1996 had dropped to a lower income group by 2005. Some of these people might have been "rich" merely for one year, or perhaps for several, as they hit their peak earning years or had some capital gains windfall. Others may simply have not been able to keep up with new entrepreneurs and wealth creators.

The key point is that the study shows that income mobility in the U.S. works down as well as up--another sign that opportunity and merit continue to drive American success, not accidents of birth. The "rich" are not the same people over time.

I'd certainly like to believe it.

Comments

[MarkD]

I noticed my local paper (Syracuse Post Standard) had a headline this morning about rising income inequality between blacks and whites. I guess there is no good news that cannot be spun.

[anduril]

I think they need some more data before they can make such generalizations, but then maybe more data wouldn't given them the conclusions they wanted for the article, or the article would have been more complex than the great American "only in America" story they wanted to tell.  Anyone who wanders around Manhattan, say up and down Park Avenue and the upper East Side in general, and has even a clue as to the cost of living in that area has to wonder: who are these people?  People who are rich for a year and then fall into a lower bracket?  Are they all celebrities or corporate executives?  My understanding is that a fairly high percentage of these people are descendants of those who built up fortunes many years ago--that inherited wealth has endured in certain classes of people.  Perhaps others can add to this.  I'm just saying that there may be a class of "the rich" that does endure over time in America--maybe not a monolithic class, but a class nonetheless.  There are other indicators of a class structure, too.  Maybe others have another view.

[SteveMG]

One could argue (I think the Left will make it) alternatively that the study shows an increase in the volatility of income in America and thus requires more government intervention to "protect" citizens against the negative consequences of that instability. E.g., sure people move up, but many also move down.

It seems to me that this (roughly) is the liberal argument. That we need to be more like Europe with its more robust welfare state and interventionist policies that both protect workers while also mitigating the more volatile nature of our economy.

It's not an entirely unattractive argument.

SMG

[Barry Dauphin]

I believe all citizens should be in the top quintile of income! Let's vote for upward mobility without any downsides.

[jimmyk]

Anyone who wanders around Manhattan, say up and down Park Avenue and the upper East Side in general, and has even a clue as to the cost of living in that area has to wonder: who are these people? People who are rich for a year and then fall into a lower bracket?

The problem is in linking concepts like "rich" and "poor" to income, rather than assets or expenditures. Is the investment banker who pulled down $10 million plus for many years in the 90s, and then retired, now poor?

All sorts of lifecycle events guarantee constant churning across income groups, but annual income in a particular year is a lousy indicator of standard of living.

None of which is to say that the WSJ's larger point is false, but income mobility vastly overstates social mobility.

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

There's another study released today, that is also interesting:

Two out of three Americans have higher incomes than their parents, while one third are falling behind.

The current generation of adults is better off than the previous one, because of real income growth, but their incomes are more unevenly distributed. ....

Compared to their parents, they also live in families that are smaller and where there is more often a second earner.

Women's incomes have grown while men's have stagnated. ....

It is easier to surpass parental income if one‟s parents are low on the income ladder, because then one's income can increase both because of economic growth and because of moving up the ladder relative to one's parents. ....

....A child’s economic position on the income ladder in adulthood is heavily influenced by that of his or her parents.

Children born to parents with income on the bottom rung of the ladder are highly likely (42 percent) to also be in the bottom rung in adulthood, while those born to parents on the top rung are very likely to stay at the top (39 percent). This is known as “stickiness at the ends.” ....

The rags to riches story is more often found in Hollywood than in reality – only 6 percent of children born to parents at the bottom make it to the top of the income distribution. ....

Of the two thirds of Americans who make more than their parents’ family income, one half (or 34 percent of all Americans) are upwardly mobile, meaning they also move up at least one rung on the income ladder ahead of their parents.

One quarter of all Americans (27 percent) are riding the tide – making more than their parents' income but remaining on the same income rung as their parents. A small number (5 percent) are falling despite the tide, making more than their parents‟ family income, but slipping to a lower rung. The remaining (33 percent) are downwardly mobile, making less than their parents and falling down the income ladder. ....

In every income group, blacks are less likely than whites to surpass their parents‟ family income and more likely to fall down the economic ladder. ....

These trends are particularly startling for children born to middle income black parents – the analysis suggests that black parents who achieve middle income status are not able to pass their economic advantages onto their children in the same way as white parents. Only 31 percent of black children born to middle-income parents make more than their parents' family income, compared to 68 percent of white children.

Maybe the changing incentives that came with the Civil Rights revolution wasn't a blessing.

[MayBee]

Two out of three Americans have higher incomes than their parents, while one third are falling behind.

I'm sure if I actually read your link, Patrick, this would be explained. But I wonder how this is measured?
I'm married and personally have 0 income. Our family income is higher than my parents'- especially now that they are retired. Of course, my personal income is less than my parents'. My husband's income is higher than his parents income when he was growing up, but lower than his mother's income now. When his father retired, our family income was probably about equal to his father's family income, although higher than his father's personal income.
Anyway. It seems there would have to be assumptions thrown in any such study that would make it a huge tangle.

[Syl]

It seems to me that this (roughly) is the liberal argument. That we need to be more like Europe with its more robust welfare state and interventionist policies that both protect workers while also mitigating the more volatile nature of our economy.

It's not an entirely unattractive argument.

I liked Fred Thompson's characterization of this as 'comfortable mediocrity'.

[Clarice]

AS we move away from large, unionized industries to a skilled and professional and service oriented economy, there are huge premiums on quality education. (Not necessarily college, but highly skilled workers as well ). Detroit's auto industry provided many minimally skilled Black workers with well paying jobs. Ditto the defunct steel industry.They are virtually gone.
Aside from cultural barriers to changing attitudes toward education, our crappy inner city schools have been moving toward a pretend preparation for college for all and trade schools which turned out plumbers and electricians and masons and carpenters are being scrapped.

The disparity is less one due to discrimination, I think, as it is to factors like this.

[Jane]

Well if I were betting I'd tie disparity to work ethic. People with great work ethics seem to prosper. Those without, not so much.

[Clarice]

The effect that the European system has is this:Almost every rich family established legal residence elsewhere--largely Switzerland--to avoid ruinous taxation. Those left won't starve, but their capacity to become wealthy is much constrained. And they are all waiting around for inheritances to provide their one decent chance to live well. Really.

[Rick Ballard]

"I believe all citizens should be in the top quintile of income!"

Having spent some time in all of them, I'll vote for that.

"The rags to riches story is more often found in Hollywood than in reality – only 6 percent of children born to parents at the bottom make it to the top of the income distribution. ...."

Considering the Gaussian distribution of intelligence and its correlation with income that's one of the least surprising pronouncements that I've ever seen. The author needs to throw in a little contrast: "Whereas, in Russia under the Tsars, an intelligent hard working serf could count on advancing to a higher income bracket within..."

[Porchlight]

MayBee, I too would like to know how they're measuring the income of married people, especially wrt the cited difference between the ability of blacks and whites to outearn their parents.

Blacks are much less likely than whites to marry, and married people are more likely to have a higher income than single people - and not just becuase both spouses work, but because marriage allows a division of labor not possible with just one person. This is especially evident when there are children, and the majority of black children are born out of wedlock. Single parenthood is a fast track to poverty.

So with that in mind, it seems to me that the marital status of the adult children could explain much of the difference between blacks and whites in their ability to earn more than their parents. It might also explain some of the income inequality between blacks and whites in general.

Unless I'm missing something obvious, which is quite possible.

[BOATBUILDER]

I tend to agree with the study and the WSJ as a matter of general perception and my philosophical bent. However, I wonder if they took into account the rapid income transitions that occur in the years of early adulthood, even (or especially) among the relatively well-off. . When I was 21, I was in the bottom quintile (like everybody else I knew). When I was 27, I was in the top--simply by graduating from law school and getting hired. Even if I hadn't gone to law school and simply got a full-time job, i would have jumped at least two quintiles in 5 years.

[anduril]

I read somewhere not too long ago that the distribution is returning to historic parameters after a bout of relatively greater equality.  Another thing to consider.

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

It seems there would have to be assumptions thrown in any such study that would make it a huge tangle.

Indeed, use the income stats very skeptically. They don't jibe with consumption figures. The bottom quintile by income spends more than twice as much as they earn, for example.

However, the Pew survey actually followed the same people through the years and interviewed them at intervals to see how they were doing, so I think it has something useful to tell us. I'm not surprised to see black males doing the worst, since less than half of them graduate from high school.

[Rick Ballard]

Gallup has Miz Clinton tied with Hussein Il Jong, plus CNN is tossing a little more fuel on the planted questions ruckus.

I waver between Top's "spidey sense" that the media isn't feeling Sisyphean at the moment (consider the size of that boulder) and TM's concept that this is setting up a "whadda comeback" storyline.

I suppose the most advantageous tack to take would be:

"Go for it, Hussein Il Jong, you're even more articulate and cleaner than Joe Biden stated".

That doesn't look quite right. I'll have to work on it...

[Jane]

Is there a debate tonite?

[Soylent Red]

Well if I were betting I'd tie disparity to work ethic. People with great work ethics seem to prosper. Those without, not so much.

At least I know there are a few fellow capitalist pigs still roaming the earth...

I wholeheartedly agree Jane. My word for it is "hustle".

This stuff always fascinates me because, for good or bad, the attitude of "Get rich or die tryin'" seems to be a necessary ingredient to income mobility (along with a healthy dose of luck).

Which leads me to wonder why black males (who coined the above phrase) aren't doing better. They are the target audience for, and most susceptible to, the BET/hiphop culture of "conspicuous consumption means success". You'd think they'd be leading the pack in achieving the means (income) to being a good materialist. Assuming that the study took into account all means of generating income (formal and informal), what could be the variable?

Which brings me back to what Clarice says about, and Patrick alludes to, regarding education. Not only does education (hopefully) give you the intellectual means of success, but also a foundation in social connectivity. Being able to communicate with and understand people across social strata makes it easier to spot the markets, do the deals, solicit capital, etc... That's part of what school teaches a person. At least in a correctly functioning education system.

At minimum, success in school requires that a person develop a bare minimum work ethic, which over and above any other benefits, at least gets them started.

[MayBee]

Jason Leopold interviews Valerie Plame:
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/111307J.shtml

[Sue]

Maybee,

I tried, but I just can't do it. If you listened, will you tell us if there is anything interesting in there?

[Sue]

Valerie's book is not in the top 100 best sellers on Amazon. That didn't take long, did it?

[laura]

OT
Clarice,
Tomorrow night our guest arrives from Iraq via Syria. I just read this from Wretchard and it hits like a punch to the gut.

It's the nature of fighting dictatorships that it takes a long time. It took 14 years to bring down Marcos. The junta in Burma looks to be far from finished. And would Saddam have fallen without OIF? Chances are he'd still be in power, throwing people into wood chippers.

It's a hard job fighting secret police organizations, rigged elections, bought media. And years of living on the run takes its toll. Every time you sleep, some part of you is subconsciously listening for car pulling up; the sound of footsteps running up the stairs; feeling for the Smith and Wesson by your head.

Ask anyone who's lived the life what he remembers most about getting to the USA. It's the first night's sleep. It's an unimaginable feeling. And the next morning, to see the sun stream through the window. To hear the hiss of steam heating. To hear the sound of people yelling in yard. And not be afraid.

And if you stay long enough on one of the trips to the post office you'll look up and the force of it will break your heart. Up above, flying in a way that those who take it for granted rarely see it is the flag; and the flag; and the flag.

[SunnyDay]

I followed the link from the interview to this

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/091307Z.shtml

Hahaha TO's emails are treated as spam - they are taking it personally.

[Clarice]

You'e great to do this,Laura. I expect the transition will be hard, but you are saving a life for sure.

[Topsecretk9]

Posted by: MayBee | November 13, 2007 at 03:48 PM

Empty's head explodes!

[Topsecretk9]

A 37-year-old woman who previously worked as an FBI agent and a CIA analyst, pleaded guilty Tuesday to charges involving improper access of information, CBS News has learned.

Sources say Nada Nadim Prouty, a Lebanese national and resident of Virginia, entered the United States on a student visa and earned citizenship through a sham marriage.

While officials say there is no evidence of actual espionage and no evidence that she was working as a spy, she used her access as an FBI agent to look up information about herself and her relatives, some of whom may have ties to Hezbollah. She also is accused of improperly taking classified information home with her.

More here

In September 2000, Prouty, while employed as an FBI special agent, used the FBI’s computerized Automated Case System (ACS), without authorization, to query her own name, her sister’s name, and that of her brother-in-law, Talal Khalil Chahine. In addition, on or about June 4, 2003, Prouty accessed the FBI’s ACS and obtained information from a national security investigation into Hizballah that was being conducted by the FBI’s Detroit Field Office.

In June 2003, through a series of false representations and use of her fraudulently procured proof of U.S. citizenship, Prouty, then known as “Nada Nadim Prouty,” voluntarily left her position with the FBI and obtained employment with the CIA. It was also a prerequisite to CIA employment that she be a U.S. citizen.

On Nov. 6, 2007, Prouty resigned her position at the CIA. Pursuant to the terms of her plea agreement, she has agreed to fully and truthfully cooperate with the CIA on any matters the CIA deems necessary to transition Prouty out of its employment in a manner consistent with safeguarding the national security of the United States. This cooperation includes participation in debriefing and polygraph interviews.

The ongoing investigation into this matter is being conducted by the FBI and ICE, with assistance from the U.S. Department of State, Diplomatic Security Service, and the Internal Revenue Service.

[Topsecretk9]

So, does it sound like intelligence agencies are going BACK in time to look for unauthorized information queries and access?

[Clarice]

TS--That's what I thought when I read the story. If so, this suggests the FBI is finally starting to pay attention to standard procedures for ferreting out spies and leakers. At last.

[Topsecretk9]

At last.

No kidding.

[Clarice]

Hmm--There's a great deal more.
"UPDATE: I was right, yet again. I've read Muslim FBI Agent/Hezbollah spy Nada Nadim Prouty's plea agreement (read it here). And guess what? Surprise!--She's the sister-in-law of Hezbollah's $20 million dollar financier Talal Khalil Chahine (owner of "La Shish" restaurants which remain open!), whom U.S. Attorney Stephen Murphy allowed to flee the country. Prouty is the SISTER of Chahine's wife, Elfat El-Aouar. Yup, LUUUV those great FBI Background Checks of agents.

And get this: The FBI and U.S. Attorney Stephen Murphy (and before him, U.S. Attorneys Craig Morford and Jeffrey Collins) knew Prouty was a spy for Hezbollah back in 2003, but they allowed her to work for the FBI for over FOUR Years! They did not remove her from the job until the end of this past September--1.5 years after her brother-in-law was indicted for financing Hezbollah!!!!!!

And I was right on another thing. She will do no or almost no jail time. Read the plea agreement, linked above. As reader Tim points out:

Nada Nadim Prouty is facing less than 12 months of jail time, or no jailtime at all, and three years of supervised probation and a fine totaling $2,225 under the plea agreement.
For infiltrating the FBI and CIA and spying for Hezbollah."

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/

[Jane]

OT:

Twice todat Glenn has pushed the Spitzer/Nifong meme. You gotta love it.

[Jane]

"todat" = today.

Sheesh

[Clarice]

Told you it was catching, Jane.

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

The Leopold/Plame interview has its comedic charm. Let's call it The Two Stooges.

He opens by claiming that Valerie's undercover role was leaked to a number of reporters, and goes downhill from there. He kept asking her what happened between Fitzgerald and Rove, oblivious to the fact she would have no way of knowing.

[Pete]

Hrm, I resemble this survey. In 1996, I was working a $5.25 an hour job. In 2005 my hourly rate was around $40 an hour. And then my family resembles Patrick's second survey. My parents earned at max probably 30k a year until their divorce. I now make almost 3 times that, my sister makes more than that as a firefighter, and my brother, whom has yet to leave the nest, who relies upon my mother for everything, doesn't make more than that.

[MayBee]

I tried, but I just can't do it. If you listened, will you tell us if there is anything interesting in there?

Not much interesting. Leopold mentions the report about Rove being indicted, and she acts like she just has no idea what happened there. He suggests a deal was worked out between lawyers, but gee she just doesn't know.
She also asserts another "fact" that came out at trial, as she has been wont to do. This time, it was that the OVP had a three ring binder of information about Joe Wilson that they began keeping in May 2003.
I think that trial "fact" is just like all her other trial "facts".

[MayBee]

He kept asking her what happened between Fitzgerald and Rove, oblivious to the fact she would have no way of knowing.

But that's all theater. Leopold knows that he and Joe Wilson were the ones pushing the "Rove is indicted" story. So both of the people in that interview know exactly where Leopold and Wilsson got that information and how it was disseminated. What he's really saying is, "Don't you think we weren't lying or mislead, but that Fitzgerald made a deal with Rove after the fact?"

[MayBee]

Part 2 will be called "A Story of a Brilliant Career"

[VOA Moscow Correspondent Peter Fedynsky(just kidding, really)]

VOA was doing some selling. I got Dipo blog sorta confused with the USG media - PC/VOA/Dipo - conspiracy to murder federal employees call.

No one needs to panic or think their responsible for the Mossad conspiracy thing 'cause hilly doesn't want us to remember our pain and the caucuses(stans, coups) are there to pay dems off for all their hard work.

If any of YOU feel guilty........... it was all write offs to make money anyway.

Oh, Information Exchange and Collection ,not battle stuff.

[Topsecretk9]

What he's really saying is, "Don't you think we weren't lying or mislead, but that Fitzgerald made a deal with Rove after the fact?"

Yep. Exactly.

and again, Emptywheel's head explodes.

-----

Jawa has more on the fbi agent

CBS adds: she is accused of passing information to sympathizers of Hezbollah,

Check this out from Robert Spencer. Her brother owned the LaShish restaurant.

La Shish was one of the sponsors, despite this indictment, of the [Arab American Institute's] recent conference, where Democratic presidential candidates and Ron Paul were falling all over themselves to condemn "racial profiling" -- anti-terror efforts be damned -- and grovel for the Arab vote.

Bill Richardson, Dennis Kucinich, Mike Gravel and were there. Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, and John Edwards addressed the conference via satellite.

Ron Paul was the sole Republican at the conference.

Let the outrage commence!!

[SunnyDay]

God bless Marcus Luttrell. "Lone Survivor" is being made into a movie. I do hope his message is still in it when it comes out.

[Clarice]

No kidding! a movie with American heroes..Wait..I need to fetch my smelling salts.

[SunnyDay]

In his book, he says flat out that the reason they decided not to kill the goat herders who betrayed them, was that they were afraid the press would get hold of it, use it for anti-war purposes, and they would be tried for murder.

[Ann]

I say we take our families and friends and show Hollywood how to make some money; because we all know they would not make this movie for the right reasons.

Does anyone know who the producer/director is?

[Ann]

For that matter, does anyone know who the actors will be.

Please tell me George Clooney is not in it.

Such a shame about George, I have to admit I had a crush until he opened his mouth.

[SunnyDay]

I just heard it as an "aside" comment from Bill O'Reilly to Ann Coulter. They were discussing the "war movies" and the fact that they were flops - and was it true that people just didn't want to see war movies, or was it because people support the war/military and don't want to see a negative portrayal of our country and our soldiers.

Ann C said there's one easy way to find out - somebody make a PRO war movie and see if it's successful. BOR said "Well they are - Lone Survivor is being made into a movie..." and then they went on with the other discussion - almost like he realized he shouldn't have said that.

[RichatUF]

clarice-

Nada Nadim Prouty is facing less than 12 months of jail time, or no jailtime at all, and three years of supervised probation and a fine totaling $2,225 under the plea agreement.
For infiltrating the FBI and CIA and spying for Hezbollah.

She mush have one of those Sandy Berger™ "Get Out Of Jail Free" Cards I keep hearing about. Where does Larry Franklin go and get an apology [or at least his conviction overturned].

TSK9-

So, does it sound like intelligence agencies are going BACK in time to look for unauthorized information queries and access?

She probably did all the damage she could and keeping her around would probably compromise the Iran/Syria/Hezbollah assests above her. Better keep her on a short leash and have her "cooperate" in the damage assessment [interesting too, I've been told that Muslims, growing up in a culture that practices dissembly and evasion can "beat" polygraphs more easily than most]

PRS-

Let's call it The Two Stooges.

LOL. It's good to hear that her book sales have dropped off faster than "24 Business Hours".

[SunnyDay]

Ann, I have been so diappointed in several performers. I can't even listen to some musicians I used to love. It's not that I think they aren't entitled to their point of view, but when I hear them, the only thing I can think of is the horrible things they've said.

[Clarice]

Richard, the news reports say she passed FBI and CIA polygraphs. And how do you suppose they will evaluate the credibility of her cooperation--more polygraphs.

[SunnyDay]

more off topic - seen this?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1925347/posts

[RichatUF]

Lone Survivor film notes

Producer: Universal

Director/Script: Peter Berg Don't know if this is the same guy but Universal did "The Kingdom"

Hasn't been casted, and since they have yet to shop around Europe getting the movie making subsidies, I wouldn't hold my breath on this project. Never know though.

[Ann]

Ditto SunnyDay!

...Like Laura Ingraham says "Shut Up and Sing"

[RichatUF]

SunnyDay-

The Clinton Machine works in mysterious ways-the story is a twofer, stick the Giuliani campaign and evil News Corp. If only we could get Murdoch in a candid photo.

[SteveMG]

Speaking of US incomes, check out this remarkable map of the US with individual states representing various countries that have similar GDPs.

Stunning perspective.

California = France
New Jersey = Russia
Texas = Canada
Ohio = Australia.

If you can't make it here, you just ain't making it anywhere.

SMG

[RichatUF]

Clarice-

...the news reports say she passed FBI and CIA polygraphs. And how do you suppose they will evaluate the credibility of her cooperation--more polygraphs...

I didn't read that far-was being tounge-in-cheek, sort of. But I would assume that the FBI/CIA isn't really serious and if she "passes" her polygraph its because she is being helpful and if she "fails" its not so bad either-the room was too cold or the examiner was too mean and let her do it again until she gets it right. Whatever-the point here is that it doesn't spread, especially up.

[bgates]

Terrific. The guy who directed The Kingdom, and was upset when an American audience cheered a scene of Americans killing terrorists, is directing the 'pro-US' war movie. Guess Adam Gadahn couldn't clear his schedule.

[Clarice]

She had to be lying from the outset and the polygraphs missed it because the story begins by saying she entered into a fraudulent marriage to get citizenship so she could get a job with the FBI.

[Clarice]

P.S. The NY Daily News has a story about Saddam's friendship with his Lebanese born FBI agent who was his debriefer. A smart friend emailed me asking, why was he in FBI custody anyway? Good question, I think.

[RichatUF]

Clarice-

She had to be lying from the outset and the polygraphs missed it because the story begins by saying she entered into a fraudulent marriage to get citizenship so she could get a job with the FBI.

So her citizenship can be revoked and she can be sent back to Lebanon-even better! I don't know, did the FBI and CIA completely shut down their counter-intelligence and rely exclusively on "polygraphs"-

[SunnyDay]

If only we could get Murdoch in a candid photo.
****************

Haha! They will not get Murdoch. He's a business genius, not an idealogue.

[RichatUF]

errata:

If only we could get Murdoch in a candid photo.

If only I could get a link of Dr. Evil and Mr. Bigglesworth to work

[Clarice]

I think they should reconsider this protocol Richard. That Phillipine spy in Cheney's office also passed a polygraph test.

Sociopaths and spies seem to be very lucky with them.

[MayBee]

Nada Nadim Prouty

A VIPs is born!

[RichatUF]

The NY Daily News has a story about Saddam's friendship with his Lebanese born FBI agent who was his debriefer.

Seems the agent is a feature in an upcoming book out in Nov-could be interesting

[Other Tom]

How does the study account for Johnny, who elects to drive his lorry for 35 hours per week, and Jimmy, who drives his for 80? We know, of course, that Jimmy must therefore be taxed at a higher rate--but is that the end of it?

I am hoping that someone will put together a compendium of the reviews of the breathtakingly awful "Lions for Lambs." It is about to take on a reputation as Ishtar without the laugh lines. And it couldn't happen to a nicer bunch than the ignoramus Redford, the alarmingly uninformed Streep, and the washed-up midget Cruise.

Oh, my heart soars like the hawk!

[Ann]

Has anyone begged Jane to live blog the Democrats debate in Las Vegas, Thursday night?

Rush had some good questions for WOLF, today:

RUSH: You know what Wolf ought to do at that debate on Thursday night? He ought to have a disclaimer prior to every question:

"This question approved by Ann Lewis.

This question approved by Bill Clinton.

This question approved by Howard Wolfson.

This question approved by Hillary Clinton, herself.

This question planted by Hillary Clinton, herself."

Here's the only safe line of questions for Wolf Blitzer to ask Hillary Clinton at the debate on Thursday night:

"Mrs. Clinton, what points would you like to make this evening? Mrs. Clinton, do you need more time to make your points?

Mrs. Clinton, what would you like to be asked about now, as we're nearing the end of the debate?

Mrs. Clinton, have we asked the right questions to help you get your points across? Because, frankly, we haven't understood a thing you've said tonight." there.

[RichatUF]

And speaking of the law enforcement approach and its success...oops

[Clarice]

Newsweek has more details on the Prouty case ,including these http://www.newsweek.com/id/70309:

[quote]After joining the CIA in June 2003, Prouty was an undercover officer for the agency's National Clandestine Service, the espionage division, working on Middle East-related cases. She was reassigned to a less sensitive position about a year ago, after she first came under suspicion, officials said.

Prosecutors have not charged Prouty with espionage. Nonetheless, the case remains an "ongoing investigation" and "that is obviously something we're looking at," a senior law enforcement official said. Her lawyer declined comment today. Under the terms of her plea agreement, she faces six to twelve months behind bars, and could be stripped of her U.S. citizenship.

The case is clearly a major embarrassment for both the FBI and CIA and has already raised a host of questions. Chief among them: how did an illegal alien from Lebanon who was working as a waitress at a shish kabob restaurant in Detroit manage to slip through extensive security background checks, including polygraphs, to land highly sensitive positions with the nation's top law enforcement and intelligence agencies?[/quote]

[MayBee]

the alarmingly uninformed Streep

Oh, perfect. I have thought of clarice every time I've seen the movie poster which says:
If you don't STAND for something...
...you might FALL for anything.

Why? Because Meryl Streep was the celebrity face of the ALAR cause. She fell for something, all right.

[Clarice]

Yup. I've written a piece on this that's still in the queue--Streep is playing Julia Childs in a new Ephron movie though she stood for everything Childs was opposed to--all this organic food, anti-insecticide, local foods crap.

[Other Tom]

Lions for Lambs = Ishtar without the laughs.

[Ann]

Way off topic, but:

Clarice,

You have piqued my interest in Florence King, whom I have not had the opportunity to read. I am someone who is always looking for a type of person that is sharp of eye and wit and suffers fools wisely (Just like you and all JOMers, I should say :D) and would love to know which book of hers you would recommend to read first.

Or should I just ask for all of her books for Christmas?

[Ann]

2008 Opportunity :

What A Refreshing Election!

[Clarice]

I particularly remember "With Charity Toward None" and "Confessions of a Failed Southern Lady". I still haven't been able to recall in which of her books is the marvelous essay on Bill Clinton. If she ever responds to my letter, I'll post it.

[dick]

I am not Clarice but when it comes to Florence King I think you should ask for all of them. She was an amazingly talented writer.

[dick]

I am not Clarice but when it comes to Florence King I think you should ask for all of them. She was an amazingly talented writer.

[dick]

I am not Clarice but when it comes to Florence King I think you should ask for all of them. She was an amazingly talented writer.

[Ann]

Clarice,

Well, you just made up my mind! My mother was from Belmond, Iowa and became a model in Chicago. My father is a "World Series" baseball player from the south. My mom hated the south and they were divorced.

I am a child from the midwest, like you, and married into a family from the south. I have come to love the south and my husband's family.

Guess, I will start with the southern essay.
I have come to love southern tea and still hate salt meat! (southern ham) :D

[Clarice]

I think NRO is having a sale on a number of her books because they are moving. Amazon carries them all, too.

[Topsecretk9]

New CPA Licensees

The VSCPA and Virginia Board of Accountancy would like to congratulate the following new CPAs licensed January 2007 to September 2007 in the Commonwealth:

Nada Prouty, Vienna

http://www.vscpa.com/Press_Room/News_Releases/CPA_Inauguration_0907.aspx

[Clarice]

Double checked--the NRO sale is on two of her books Stet Damnit! and Deja View

http://store.nationalreview.com/?i=NDliM2ExNGI2OTFjOWM2NzEwM2NmYjg5YTZjNjA1MTQ=>Florence King

You can put these on your Xmas wish list,Ann.And if you buy anything from Amazon due it on TM's site and he gets some $$.

[Clarice]

TS, I wrote the VSCPA organization and gave them a head's up.

[Breeze]

Murdock just lost a TV station he bought from the opposition and the President got mad and broke it, but that's okay because it can all be done at the podcast center the Director visited as the 'coup' happened. So, Rupert is giving away a paper and expects nothing in return(except some corpses) except maybe a small country that is breaking away from it's evil oppressor to have freedom.... freedom like true american revolutionary freedom!

Freedom for Abkhazia and South Ossetia !!! Just make the PC deal like Rupert.

Oh ya, Lone survivior: is this about the fetus that ran out of the womb as the plane was burning, escaped it's incinerated mother and lept from the burning plane and FLEW to earth, landing safely on water and swimming to land to be saved by what he says was a stewardess, but he was the only survivor.

This lamb that became a lion was foreign born, like Ishtar, and grew up to real big important spy and started when he was 14, like Plame, but stayed loyal and didn't kill everybody 'cause I'm important.'

The lion has no superpowers 'cause that's wrong and instead is amazingly talented.

[Ann]

I just bought the books on NRO and you will love the message:

" Please note that if you are shipping to NY, you will be charged 8.375% sales tax.

When will they learn? Never! ::grin::

[Ann]

Breeze,
Would you please explain what you mean to a blonde, blue eyed ex-model, myself. You know we are so stupid!

Are you sure you are on the right web site?? We are so stupid here, please explain!

"Oh ya, Lone survivior: is this about the fetus that ran out of the womb as the plane was burning, escaped it's incinerated mother and lept from the burning plane and FLEW to earth, landing safely on water and swimming to land to be saved by what he says was a stewardess, but he was the only survivor."

Keep it up! The American public will vote soon and you will not identify with it!
Who taught you American History?

[MayBee]

Oh! I thought of the other goofy thing from Plame's interview with Leopold. She could think of no way Novak could find out about her name having been Plame. There was just no way he could have found that out. Jason asked if only CIA people knew that her name had been Plame, and she said only the CIA knew she worked at the CIA and her name had been Plame. Just goofy.

[Paul Zrimsek]

I could get behind the Carol Herman bandwagon. But also keep an eye on rising star "tc" over at Althouse's.

[Paul Zrimsek]

Not sure how I came to attach that comment to this post, but of course it belongs up with our search for a right-wing Kos.

[sophy]

I do not know how to use the Cheap metin2 yang ; my friend tells me how to use.