You Just Can't Trust The CIA

The Times tells us that CIA is not consistently forthcoming with the truth.

Who woulda guessed?

Water, bridge, I need to move on (or jump off).  The Captain covers the latest outrage.

MORE:  Not that I would necessarily believe them, but can't someone nail down the latest date for which she received credit on her pension for her service abroad?  And the last hashing of this here was Nov 15, and I doubt the battle lines have shifted much.

WHAT DID THEY KNOW AND WHEN DID THEY KNOW IT:  The Muckraker isn't digging the Jay and Jane Show:

But the bottom line here is that at least some Congressional leaders knew something about the tapes and something about their destruction, and didn't say anything about either. [Jane] Harman's silence is especially stunning: she co-chaired a joint Congressional inquiry into the 9/11 attacks in 2002 that didn't receive that very pertinent information.

And in a post that might have been titled "With Democrats Like These..." Marty Lederman writes:

Jay Rockefeller is constantly learning of legally dubious (at best) CIA intelligence activities, and then saying nothing about them publicly until they are leaked to the press, at which point he expresses outrage and incredulity -- but reveals nothing.

...Jane Harman also knew of the intention to destroy the tapes, and she at least "urged" the CIA in writing not to do it. (Where were her colleagues?) But when she found out the CIA had destroyed the tapes, where was Harman's press conference? Where were the congressional hearings?

This ongoing selective outrage by the Congressional overseers is ridiculous.

MAYBE IT IS NOT OBVIOUS: OK, I know sometimes I can be a bit sarcastic, but when I provide a link to Captain Ed and describe it as "the latest outrage" and the Captain appears to be outraged, it is not an absurd leap to think that maybe I am outraged as well; just for starters, I am on the same page as the Captain a lot more than I am off it, and my use of the word "outrage" can even serve as a supplemental clue.   And beyond that, the Captian links to several other irritated righties, so it is not a leap to think that maybe, since righties are irked, I am irked as well.

From the Captain:

Frankly, the timing stinks. The tapes sat unmolested in a vault for at least two years without the CIA worrying about the potential damage from a leak. The Inspector General had long since concluded that the interrogations did not break the law. However, as soon as Congress began debating the specific interrogation technique that the tapes depicted, someone decided that they represented a danger to the agents. It looks a lot more like destroying evidence than tightening security.

Hayden will spend the next few weeks explaining this to Congress. Instead, Congress should be talking with the people in charge of the CIA in 2005 to find out who gave the order to destroy the tapes, and why.

UPDATE: Michelle Malkin agrees, as does Rick Moran.  James Joyner says it looks like obstruction of justice.

Clear enough?

Comments

[clarice]

Actually I think she's going to a Google founder's very chi chi and expensivo wedding.

[reliapundit]

oh gee.... things like this are so... messy.

there's an easy way to avoid messy things like this: just surrender;

no intercepts; no rendition; no wars.
no defense budgets.

no surges.

not only no connecting-the-dots, but no dots.

NOW: ARE YOU LIBS HAPPY?!?!?!?

sheesh.

fdr put citizens in concentration camps and 1000's of nazis were summarily executed after the war.

yet he's a hero.

gwb has pussy-footed through the last 6 ROP-years and had us fight with one hand behind our backs ---- while elements within the CIA and the ENTIRE NYTIMES and the ENTIRE ACLU and virtually all the Dems actively support the enemy.

It's long passed time to focus on winning ans stop attacking ourselves.

the freakin' historians can do that fifty years from now - if we win.

as for the possibility that the destruction of these tapes night lead to a mistrial...

boofreakin' hoo.

the LEAKERS are the real enemies (along with the jihadothugs) - NOT THOSE WHO WE HAVE ON THE FRONT LIONES!

sandy berger and joe wilson and eric lictblau and james risen and pinch and their comrades in the CIA and STATE and Congress who leak should be indicted, convicted and sentenced.

FOR TREASON.

give a medal to the interrogators.

the harsher they were: THE MORE MEDALS!

[Elliott]

Hit and Run:

I trust Tom implicitly. He says "Jump!" and I say, "How..." well, to be honest, usually I say, "Let me tell you a story when I was 12" or whatever.

PeterUK:

any day now the Three Wise Ayatollahs are going to take gifts of Gold Frankinsense and Uranium to the the manger at Bethlehem.

There needs to be an abbreviation befitting the cleverness of those remarks.

[clarice]

Segueing off Pearl Harbor day IBD said much the same thing ,reliapundit.

[clarice]

HitPukrisy,elliott?

[Elliott]

Clarice,

I like it. The HitPeter combination got me thinking that maybe we should steal from Madison Avenue and call it "HP Innovation."

I always find the "key judgments" sections of the NIEs disturbingly formulaic. On the bright side, that makes it easy to write one yourself. Here goes:

We conclude with high confidence that hit and run is proceeding with the development of an analysis of mass erudition program. Sigint shows such a capacity has been developed covertly without the knowledge of the IC. While it is true that hit and run has continued to focus on producing incomparably humorous commentary, recent pronouncement indicating that either the White House or alcoholic beverages are responsible for all his material appear to be deceptive activities, designed to distract attention from his AME program.

[Ann]

Reliapundit, I don't think anyone here would disagree with you and the article Clarice mentioned is dead on:

This says all you need to know:
ibdeditorials.com Wail Of The Tap

[Syl]

Just call me insouciant but I am NOT outraged by the destruction of the tapes.

Captain is a law and order type and just as authoritarian as the rest of them.

Obstruction of Justice? Boo hoo.

And we know what the Left thinks of the CIA. Except for that Val thing, of course. I mean, 'who we are as a people' is such a lame reason.

I'll tell you who we are as a people. We are not perfect. We try. But we will not surrender to a bunch of murderous jihadis.

Let's win first. Then the Left can sort it all out.

Authoritarians on the Right, Authoritarians on the Left, what's an Insouciant to do?

[Sara]

OT: I've been saying for awhile that there is something about Huckabee that rubs me the wrong way. I knew so little about him, though, I was never able to be specific. These two links are the exact kinds of things that really worry me about the Huckster. Please tell me Republicans can't be this stupid and elect this man as the nominee.

Via Powerline:

Mike Huckabee's Sunday school foreign policy

Via The Astute Bloggers:

THE BAD NEWS KEEPS POURING IN ABOUT THE HUCKSTER

I barely survived the first Carter years, who needs another go round?

[JM Hanes]

Incidentally, Bolton may be the nexus for the odd Latin American - Africa/Iraq connection that came up a couple of times in the Wilson/Plame saga. A major piece of the anti-Bolton effort centered around the intel on Cuba (helpfully provided by highly placed Cuban double agent Ana Montes whose findings Fingar et al have yet to disavow!).

Fulton Armstrong (& Carter) played a big part there, and Armstrong's boss was apparently none other than Alan Foley. Did you guys kow that in 2002 (all this & the above courtesy of Timmerman), the Washington Times reported that "since 1996, Cuba and Iran have been building a pharmaceutical research and production facility in Karaj, outside the capital of Tehran." I suspect a real back story worth pursuing there.

[JM Hanes]

Sara:

I can't help thinking the whole Huckabee surge is a media driven phenom. I don't hear anybody defending him on a political policy basis, and the few social conservatives who actually speak up for him seem to duck and run for cover after defensively insisting on the relevance of his Christian credentials.

[Sara]

JMH - I keep waiting for him to tell us that he too feels our pain.

He seems nice enough and certainly genial, but my BS meter has been pretty reliable thru the years and he makes the lights go off for me.

[Syl]

Huckabee spent too much, was too nice to kids of illegal aliens, has let some people out of jail (though the stuff you linked to, Sara, is a bit overblown), has governed with liberal legislature in place...

just like romney
just like guiliani

I don't think he's THAT bad for pete's sake. And I'm not a social/religious conservative by any stretch of the imagination so I don't like him just because of his religious views.

He's weak on foreign policy but is bright as heck--surround him with neocons and, well, heh.

I'm just laying back watching the whole thing. I'll vote for any of them. In fact I wish a part of each of them could be thrown in a pot, stirred, and result in one shiny candidate.

Scrappiness of Guiliani
Wonkiness of Romney
war strength of McCain
geniality and wit of Huckabee

Sigh.

As I said, I'm just watching and observing-- and noting the purity testing.

[Syl]

I forgot to add:

the wisdom of Thompson

[hit and run]

Elliott:
We conclude with high confidence that hit and run is proceeding with the development of an analysis of mass erudition program.

Heh, thanks.

You know, things haven't necessarily changed all that much from when this blog first got it's hooks into me...I have come here to learn.

Of course, you come for the erudiditification; you stay for the friends.

[hit and run]

I think Huck is 99 Bush in his politics and 90s Clinton in his politicking.

Bush got elected.

Of course, after 9/11 Bush had a major transormation in his politics with the realization of the Islamist threat we faced.

If Huck can convince me that he understands that threat -- I won't be so concerned with him.

But seriously, noting reliapundit's comment up above -- imagine a president who wasn't completely convinced of the threat -- and completely committed to defeating it -- in the hostile environment the US government has become.

Pursuing policies to defeate Islamofascism doesn't just face inertia of a large bureaucratic mess -- it faces outright hostility.

[Jane]

I can't help thinking the whole Huckabee surge is a media driven phenom.

That's what I see. And it stinks.

[Sue]

I always get a kick out of someone claiming we all walk lockstep with our dear leader or each other. I think of all the things we are polar opposites on and smile. The problem is we remain friendly after the smoke of the last disagreement is over and that is why we appear to visitors as ditto heads. Appalled knows better. He doesn't have visitor status. The things we have in common, like common sense for starters, makes for strange bedfellows who can agree on the larger issues and get bogged down with the details. You don't find that at the left of center blogs. If you don't agree with the host and his/her minions, you seldom even make it through the filter and if you do happen to slip by, then banning is just around the corner. I understand from others that some right of center blogs are the same way, but this blog has always been wide open. And Appalled knows that too.

[davod]

"Patrick J. Fitzgerald had agreed to turn his transcripts of interviews with Mr. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney over to U. S. Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif."

I thought Grand Jury testimony was supposed to be confidential?

Mind you, with Plame as the source, she might be just trying to gt a few more interviews.

[Porchlight]

Syl, I wish we could mix and match aspects of the candidates, too. Huck is not all bad. But he is very, very weak on the difficult stuff (foreign policy) and I'm not sure he could get around that simply by hiring good advisors.

And Jane is right that the media is trying to pump up Huckabee so they can gleefully shoot him down later. Just think what fun they'd have with him - a Baptist preacher, forsooth. It'd be very ugly.

[Neo]

This NIE has now focused more heat on the intelligence services than they ever got from the failures of 9/11.

When the IAEA looks more skeptical than the US intelligence services, you know things are really bad. Allies, and non-allies, across "the pond" are now publicly expressing the view that the US intelligence services have lost their collective minds with consequences that could affect their security.

The leaders of France and Germany said Thursday that Iran remained a danger and that other nations needed to keep up the pressure over its nuclear program despite a United States intelligence report’s conclusion that Tehran was no longer building a bomb.

Meanwhile, the President says full speed ahead with diplomatic efforts for renewed sanctions regarding the ongoing Iranian uranium enrichment program, and Dick Cheney, acting the part to the Cheshire Cat, making an appearance on The Politico telling the amusing tale that he has no reason to dispute the facts as presented.

This whole thing has the feel of petard self-immolation. The POTUS et al have decided to let this ridiculous NIE report public, in fact rushed it out, to let the intelligence service destroy themselves. Sunshine is the best disinfectant.

[allen]

Now the NY Times says that the White House and other officials told the C.I.A. NOT to destroy the tapes. The head of the clandestine operations supposedly did it on his own(Jose Rodriguez). The "drive by" media is such a perfect description. Speaking of Timmerman(and AJ Strata), they say a grand jury is hearing evidence regarding the leaking of the NSA terrorist surveillance program. All roads seem to lead to one man: Jay Rockefeller. After taking a 7 year beating from these traitors I still believe(or pray)that the president has something up his sleeve and will drop the hammer in his final year. My prediction: Jay Rockefeller will be indicted and charged with leaking the NSA terrorist surveillance program(a man can dream can't he?).

[Cecil Turner]

This NIE has now focused more heat on the intelligence services than they ever got from the failures of 9/11.

And more richly deserved heat is hard to imagine. This episode encapsulates the worst of the CIA's intel fusion and analysis along with their inability to keep a secret (at least if there is political hay for Democrats in releasing it). But it looks like it's the interrogation tapes that are going to be the stick with which Congress beats them:

Angry Democratic lawmakers called for investigations Friday into the Central Intelligence Agency's destruction in 2005 of at least two videotapes documenting the interrogation of two Qaeda operatives in the agency's custody.

Again, looks like "a typical case of American
blind justice" . . . and there's nothing I want to do about it.

[Ranger]

"Patrick J. Fitzgerald had agreed to turn his transcripts of interviews with Mr. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney over to U. S. Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif."

Hmmm... Shouldn't such a transfer go though DoJ first? Did Fitz just give the defense yet another incident of him acting as an unconfirmed primarrly official in violation of the constitution?

[RichatUF]

JM Hanes-

I suspect a real back story worth pursuing there.

Me too. I have nibbling on the edges and I didn't know that there is a large Arab dispora in South and Central America and that "Palestinian" Arabs made up the senior ranks of the Central American Communist fronts. Heritage printed up some backgrounders on the subject-this one from 1983. The whole story of Iran-Contra and this item that Hanson over at AT sketched out a few days ago might make for some interesting reading one day-when the Cuban Archives are opened and another generation has grown up outside the shadows of the Cold War.

[Sara]

After taking a 7 year beating from these traitors I still believe(or pray)that the president has something up his sleeve and will drop the hammer in his final year.

My money is on the President. GWB seems to have an uncanny knack for using the Dems against themselves, time and time again. He sits back and lets them self-destruct and then moves in with a Royal Flush.

BTW, Mort Kondracke on the Beltway Boys just predicted that Romney would win both Iowa and New Hampshire and Fred Barnes agreed.

Can someone tell me if the Iowa Caucuses are open to everyone or are there a set number of delegates? If they are open to all, then I think Romney has the best on-the-ground organization and will win despite the media hype for Huckabee.

[Neo]

Patrick J. Fitzgerald had agreed to turn his transcripts of interviews with Mr. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney over to U. S. Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif.

Given Fitz's final diatribe in the Libby summation, one knows if there was any there there in this material, Fitz would have used it.

Henry Waxman, current batting about 0.000 in his investigations of the Bush Administration, will only spin his wheels some more with this stuff, but it does make for good press with the "reality-divorced" community.

Eventually, he will return to his role as an "evil Curly" (of the Three Stooges) stand-in, a model for that guy on pizza boxes, or just simply lose his mind. I'm betting on the latter.

[Topsecretk9]

Patrick J. Fitzgerald had agreed to turn his transcripts of interviews with Mr. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney over to U. S. Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif.

Fitzgerald already agreed to turn them over so this is not new. Even a few DUer's acknowledge it wasn't new. The President says they are privileged and Waxman has written DOJ to help get them. This is just the VIPers and a Sealed vs. Sealed attention ploy.

[Sara]

Two legal things I don't understand. Wasn't there a big blowup about the last released NIE by the left saying that the Prez and VP didn't have the right to declassify it or some such? So, how would these IC types have been able to release the Iran NIE without approval? Or can CIA do it on their own.

Also, I don't understand how Fitz could arbitrarily turn over testimony by the Prez and VP, without some kind of written consent from the White House. Wouldn't Presidential privilege apply and isn't that why they both testified in closed session?

[hit and run]

Neo:
When the IAEA looks more skeptical than the US intelligence services, you know things are really bad. Allies, and non-allies, across "the pond" are now publicly expressing the view that the US intelligence services have lost their collective minds with consequences that could affect their security.

See? Just like all that cut and run defeatist talk from the Dems caused the success of the surge by forcing Iraqis finally to step up, this Iran-is-no-threat-and-we're-idiots talk now by the IC is getting the UN and Euros to step up.

Brilliant!

[hit and run]

Seriously, keep your eye on the Steyn kerfuffle.

I am powerless to do anything about it, but I would mud-wrestle Clarice and Jane to ensure that Steyn's voice is protected.

The link is to Stanley Kurtz's take on the situation, and there is much more in the Corner.

[narciso]

Huckabee has that, plus the Dumond pardon, his stance on abolishing Gitmo, because it doesn't look good. His wishy washiness on the surge, plus his advocacy of the fair tax which is a demagogic dream for less
mathematically inclined voters. His idea about quarantine, has a certain merit, it
was considered briefly in San Francisco; ground zero of the AIDS epidemic; but that
was rapidly dropped. We used to do this for any other contagious infection; but AIDS is different I guess.

So let me get this straight; the Congress. committee were briefed about these tapes
(which means Rockefeller and possibly Leahy was informed)four years ago; and now they're playing dumb and outraged (well they're not playing dumb, they are) One is reminded that Jose Rodriguez, was burned in all but name in 1997; in regards to some asset he knew in Santo Domingo. This was the era of Maxine Waters forcing John Deutsch to deny Gary Webb's warmed over Kerry Committee testimony which dovetailed with the Christic Institute's contra-cocaine conspiracies which permeated Miami Vice, Cagney & Lacey,Wiseguy and a whole series of other crime shoes in the mid 80s.
Jonathan Winer, one of Kerry's "four horseman" got the State anti-narcotics division. This was also the era of Torricelli forcing the scrub of 1000 assets, in order to impress Bianca Jagger his date at the time. This resulted from the whole Jennifer Harbury/Efraim Bamaca brouhaha in Guatemala. (Hey he wanted to be like Che, carefully what you wish for like
the song says)Another CIA functionary got the Western Hemisphere Div chief job; barry Royden who was flagged by some other issue at the time.When the acting Div. chief at the time of the Bamaca apprehension, was
given an honorary medal in 2000. The National Security Archives, brought to you by the same people who sheltered Elian from
the big bag Cubans of Miami; did an Agee like search of State Department records and had a cow. With op Eds in the Washington Post speculating about the many crimes he must have been privy to. Joe Rodriguez got his second chance with Goss, but was burned in the following months by Jason Vest in the
Nation & the Boston Phoenix. The resulting outcry considering the whole brouhaha of the
previous year was (crickets chirping)nothing. That someone other than a white male would be chairing the Ops division you would think would be a good thing you would think. Onw would prefer a middle easterner, than again seeing the example of Nadia Prouty maybe not.

We know now that State definitely was in the tank for Hugo; in that era discouraging a coup that would have stopped his rise to power. This was the Clintonadministration's handling of the major player in the region; that would complicate his successor; when he wasn't pushing Pastrana to surrender to the FARC and the ELN. Ala Barak and the PLO.
There were some exception, Rand Beer's aerial interdiction plan that shot down a missionary family's plane over Peru. On second though, maybe that wasn't such a good idea. That's why he was Kerry top national security advisor after Sammy Burger and Joe Wilson.

[clarice]

What I'd like to know is who pulled the whistle on Jay and Jane and does Conyers' resignation fit into this story somehow.

[centralcal]

Clarice - just got back from a day of Christmas shopping and can't really catch up cuz granddaughters want to use the computer.

Conyers resigned??? What have I missed? Haven't read all the posts, but did you mean Alcee Hastings instead of Conyers?

[clarice]

I AM sorry.. I DID mean Alcee. Travel fog, centralcal.

[hit and run]

Travel fog?

Travel FOG!!!???!!!?!!?!?!!!?!?!!?

An Inconvenient Truth.

To be sure.

mrs hit and run is in a "travel fog" in Texas this evening, what with our nephew's game in Texas football highschool playoffs, and sis in law's christmas party tonight........yet here I am with both precious gentle chidren, after each had one birthday party...pizza, cake, and OMG we gotta have baths tonight we haven't had any since Wed.................................................................

What do I care, tho? Both kids now know how to get me a beer from the fridge downstairs.

It's all good.

It's ALL good.

[davod]

Interesting that the video tapes controversy surfaces just as the plot to have the NIE shit on Bush seems to be unravelling.

[davod]

I would like to see Rodriguez sitting at the Congressional witness table.

One statement then shut up.

"You cannot be trusted. I did it to protect my men and our sources and methods."

Ollie North Strikes again.

They might send him to jail but Bush should pardon him (whether he will is another question).

[clarice]

I really do wish I were smart enough and had enough info to know what the NIE/Leaks/Hastigs retirement were all about.
Was it Hastings who dropped the dime on Jay and Jayne and was forced out by them in retribution?
I thought Jay was the NSA leaker and was under investigation?
I am so confused.

And then there's the even more confusing circumstances behind the volte face on Iran.

[PeterUK]

Clarice,
Word is out on the street The Times Bush might have been shafted.

[cathyf]

Hmmmm... Can you say major housecleaning at DNI and State, followed by a bunch of recess appointments? Actually, if the distinguished Senator Rockefeller (and for bonus, Leahy) end up indicted, he might not need recess appointments. Especially since Vermont's governor (who would need to appoint Leahy's replacement) is a republican.

Oh, well, it's just a fantasy brought on by the virus my kid brought home... (I've got pink-eye and have had to set my browser magnification up to 200%...)

[Elliott]

If Fitzgerald can give Waxman interview transcripts, why can't the Republicans on the committee make DOJ tell us what's up with the various leak investigations?

[cathyf]

uh... Because Fitzgerald is a superior officer? (It's still not clear which government, though. Maybe we'll find that out some day...)

[maryrose]

cathyf,
I like how you think

[Rickter]

Re: Alcee's Exit(Jeff Stein)- It might be entirely coincidental, but it turns out that Rep. Alcee L. Hastings , D-Fla., had been the subject of a six-month long investigation by two Washington reporters when he announced his resignation from the House Intelligence Committee last week.

In his Dec. 4 statement, the eight-term congressman said that the folks back home, plus his chairmanship of the human-rights U.S. Helsinki Commission, needed more attention.

The reporters, who demanded anonymity in exchange for talking about their findings, say they have uncovered damaging new information related to Hastings’ trial — and acquittal — on corruption charges as a federal judge in the 1980s. Their piece is finished and awaiting an editorial green light, at which time they plan to present Hastings with their allegations, they said.

A Hastings spokesman said “We are not aware of any investigation, and therefore it could not have played any role in Rep. Hastings’ decision to step down from the committee now.”
http://www.cqpolitics.com/wmspage.cfm?docID=hsnews-000002638705

[narciso]

You know there's something odd about the accounts of Zubeydah's interrogations. Posner's account in "When America Slept"
indicates that Zubeydah gave up the two
Saudi princes and the Pakistani air force
chief ( a scene transposed to Fallujah,Iraq in Haig Jr's "Man in the Middle)because of a deception operation by two CIA men posing as Arab intelligence men. Actually the book has it due to a very Jack Bauerish tactic upon the Zubeydah manque; a spoiled Saudi
named Ahmed bin Pacha; whose location is given up by the Chalabi manque. And the subject is rapidly terminated to prevent further revelation. For a really graphic
take on what really ghoulish interrogation techniques could devolve into;the ending
to Stephen Leather's Cold Kill;which involves such conduct against a Saudi mastermind. Warning; it is very graphic.
James Risen's account has Zubeydah (a
Saudi born Palestinian) giving up phone cards and bank debit cards, to Saudi and Emirati banks; but no names. Susskind's CIA sources; he's the coiner of "we make our own reality" paint Zubeydah as a multi personality, savant like Dustin Hoffman's character in Rain Man in order to ignore whatever he has to say. The discrepancy is not small, as Zubeydah provided info on Abdullah Muhajair aka Jose Padilla among others. One account indicates high Saudi & Pakistani Govt. foreknowledge of 9/11. The
other indicates casual contact with Saudi
moneyman and the third tries to whitewash the topic entirely. Which raises a question;
which account is most true.

I'm kind of glad that Jose Rodriguez has better instincts than the CIA men portrayed in the Bourne Ultimatum, But this raises a
different question; is it possible someone copied or transferred the tapes to jump drives or other storage media; for subse
quent transfer to Youtube, AL Jazeera et al. Will this prompt the Democrats to really go after the officers or contractors involved in said operations. They're already going after Krongard, who was the CIA's chief administrator of the Time; who headed Alex Brown; one of the firms allegedly involved in the stock puts pre 9/11; now on the board of Blackwater. His
They've forced his brother Howard, the attorney from Deloitte & Touche, right!
out of the State IG; despite the fact that one of the key witnesses in the Baghdad embassy case's story doesn't check out.
Dusty Foggo, his successor indicted on unrelated charges, was likely to have known of the final status of the tapes.The CIA's IG Helgerson has been slowed down; will he given the Fizgerald treatment. Will Porter
Goss be subpoenaed about this manner, will
he or other parties face contempt charges?
(This starting to sound like that 1995 Buckley novel, when Blackford Oakes was
jailed fore refusing to reveal a covert operation) Isn't it curious this comes out
just as the Supreme Court decides to take a second look at the MCA. Just like Abu Ghraib conveniently appeared in the time that Hamdi case was being considered. As the Chinese say, interesting times

[Topsecretk9]

Narciso--

That someone other than a white male would be chairing the Ops division you would think would be a good thing you would think. Onw would prefer a middle easterner, than again seeing the example of Nadia Prouty maybe not.

The Democrats are going after a mexican minority? I see what you are saying and OH-- this could be bad for them.

[Topsecretk9]

uh... Because Fitzgerald is a superior officer? (It's still not clear which government, though. Maybe we'll find that out some day...)

Heh...good thinking, His turning over executive privileged material sorta solidifies the extra extroidenary position he answerers to no one one that he FOUGHT to say he wasn't-- Fitz SAID he was overseen by the newspapers papers by the DOJ.

Anyways, Plames little bombshell was just a Jason Leopold sealed vs. sealed attention ploy. Fitz already agreed to superceeded the president wich makes him the proxy "president" he wast fighting in Libby desperately saying he wasn't.

Seriously. CREW called Fitz to aks if he was willing to turn over what wasestablished and so she and her lame ass lawyers were ABLe to claim this was some new, hot heavy info -- just like Larry's 22 indictements were and Jason's sealed vs. Sealed was.

I'm OKAY with they lefties and Empty and the rest just getting pwned by the Wilsons.

I suspect that's why empty hasn't touched the "Plame" story for so long. She's just chasing new dragons to take place of this deadend.

[Elliott]

Jane,

Republicans will hold a debate tonight at 7 p.m. EST/6 p.m. CST in Florida to be broadcast on Univision. I believe I will be unable to live blog as it appears the debate will air on tape delay out west. I will tape delay blog if you can't live blog.

[BR]

Great stuff, especially Neo at 11:44.

[Elliott]

TM:

This ongoing selective outrage by the Congressional overseers is ridiculous.

To wit:

In September 2002, four members of Congress met in secret for a first look at a unique CIA program designed to wring vital information from reticent terrorism suspects in U.S. custody. For more than an hour, the bipartisan group, which included current House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), was given a virtual tour of the CIA's overseas detention sites and the harsh techniques interrogators had devised to try to make their prisoners talk.

Among the techniques described, said two officials present, was waterboarding, a practice that years later would be condemned as torture by Democrats and some Republicans on Capitol Hill. But on that day, no objections were raised. Instead, at least two lawmakers in the room asked the CIA to push harder, two U.S. officials said.

[excisio magna]

Abu Zubaida, the first of the "high-value" detainees in CIA custody, was subjected to harsh interrogation methods beginning in spring 2002 after he refused to cooperate with questioners, the officials said. CIA briefers gave the four intelligence committee members limited information about Abu Zubaida's detention in spring 2002, but offered a more detailed account of its interrogation practices in September of that year, said officials with direct knowledge of the briefings.

It wasn't until Pelosi the enabler became minority leader the next year that the newly included Jane Harman spoke truth to file by writing a letter objecting to the techniques.

[BR]

I just googled "Plame" and "Idema" -- it seems others have also wondered if Plame was involved with flippantly ordering or approving torture beyond the established guidelines.

Idema - Jack Idema and other akas - CBS, Rather, involved with Idema's torture tapes which didn't air because CBSgate happened. Idema stood trial in Afghanistan, as I recall.

Some links:
Idema/CBS
Idema torture staged like Abu Ghraib?
Overview of Treason

[Sara]

Your laugh of the day:

Valerie Plame: Far-Left Media Matters 'Seeks Accuracy' & 'Truth'

CAROL JOYNT: Do you read the news reports now and see it, you can't help but see it through the lense of your CIA experience. Do you read news differently than the rest of us?

VALERIE PLAME WILSON: Hmm. Like we touched on before, having been at the center of this, I'm much more skeptical. I do try to seek other sources of information. I find something like -- there's a blog called Media Matters, I think it's Media Matters, that seeks to sort of accuracy. You know, here's some statements in the Washington Post or the New York Times or made by presidential candidates of both stripes, here's, here are the facts on them. I find that is helpful to go-

[kim]

See Batiste in the WaPo.
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[Jane]

Elliot -

I wonder if I get Univision.

I'm getting caught up in the spam filter here - if I can post, find the channel and my company has left by then, I'm all over it!

[kim]

Isn't such eagerness unseemly?

I've found that the only way I can tolerate any analysis of the debates is through the Jane-Elliott filter.
=============================

[kim]

BR, if wishes were horses, Corey Pein and Mary Mapes would be a tandem team. I suspect lying media manipulators rather(there's that word) than conspiracy, but then again, Mapes and the Kerry team surely talked.

What I found amusing is that Plame II, 'Bush Lied about Iran, we'll make sure no one dies', is foundering on the rocks of 'torture', 'destroyed evidence', and generalized Democratic anger and angst about intelligence. Couldn't happen to nicer people, either the traitors at the CIA or the fellow travelers in the Democratic Party.

And I bet Jay Rockefeller is going down. Timing will be for maximum political effect.
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[kim]

As has been pointed out to the point of annoyance, torture doesn't work. Earning the amiability of the subject gives far more reliable, so-called actionable, intelligence. The problem is when time is forcing the action(not rare, by the way). Then, something else, is more useful. It appears that waterboarding is the most humane of the 'intelligence gathering by other means' options, and will be used, in some circumstances, whether we like it or not. Make it safe, legal, and rare. It is a duty.
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[kim]

Jim Hoagland's next to last paragraph in today's WaPo, 'The Spies Strike Back', reach the heights of disinformational absurdity. It blames Bush and Co for the failure of intelligence.
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[kim]

Caroline Glick, as usual, has the skinny. She and Jim are easy to find through RealClearPolitics.

Dam joos. And it's holiday time.
===============

[SunnyDay]

J Rockefeller is on face the nation today.

[MayBee]

Elliott-
Isn't that WaPo article interesting?

Where should all the outrage go?

[kim]

Jay should bob his face for apples. Oh, wait, wrong holiday.
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[SteveMG]

Sean Penn yesterday gave what his publicist called (warned? threatened?) would be "a major political address."

Mull over those words again. Sean Penn, "major political address."

Pray, pray deeply for this country.

SMG

[SlimGuy]

The release of the prior knowledge by selected dems combined with their knowledge of when waterboarding stopped shows that this is mock outrage for political gain.

It is not playing well on the left side blogs this morning, some are starting to make rumbles about replacing Pelosi and Reid.

Is it to early in the day for popcorn?

[MayBee]

Oh man, SlimGuy. I only wish it were mere entertainment, and therefore popcorn worthy. I think it is much too serious, and I'm distressed that those that first put the story out have enough sway to generate the outrage they do, rather than the circumspection they deserve.

[clarice]

Shows again why it's worth waitingfor the facts before proclaiming outrage.

[Cecil Turner]

It is not playing well on the left side blogs this morning, some are starting to make rumbles about replacing Pelosi and Reid.

Glenn bundled it with this video, which is unflattering, to say the least.

Interesting counterpoint to his earlier observation:

The old system rested on a degree of patriotism and self-control that is no longer present in our political class, including the media. It also depended on a willingness to discipline those who departed from the norms. That, too, is absent.

Personally, I think this shows entirely too little deference to the Executive.

[Cecil Turner]

Once the war is underway (a point that was arguably reached in 1998--but certainly no later than 9/11/01), the only defensible standard for field conduct is good faith. (And Justice Thomas's Hamdi dissent is as on-point and persuasive on this matter as it was in the case of unlawful combatants.) The idea of "holding accountable" those who, in good faith, applied the then-approved interrogation measures to war criminals in our custody is risible nonsense. (And if the measures are deemed now to be torture, the application of which "shocks the conscience" and is thus indefensible under any circumstances, then we certainly ought first to apply that standard to those in our armed forces who are inflicting such treatment on our military trainees . . . or admit--at least to ourselves--that this is hogwash.) If we decide to hold witch hunts with recently discovered latter-day standards of morality in our military and intelligence services, we'll soon have exactly the sort of services we deserve.

[separated into two comments to defeat typepad's silly spam filter]

[MayBee]

exactly, clarice.

[MayBee]

If we decide to hold witch hunts with recently discovered latter-day standards of morality in our military and intelligence services, we'll soon have exactly the sort of services we deserve.

And exactly, cecil. Bryan at HotAir has been making a similar point. We're actually starting to create a policy wherein we ask CIA agents to do the hard bits (the ticking timebomb scenario) with the hopes that they'll be forgiven if the situation was deemed warranted in retrospect. The politics, however, make it virtually impossible to know how the individuals will be treated. Then we act shocked when they destroy tapes (that they weren't required to have)?

[Rick Ballard]

The CIA was simply complying with DoJ standards as interpreted by the FBI.

Videotaping interrogations is actively discouraged and investigators notes are the only evidence admissible.

Ask Agent Bond if you don't believe me. Be quick though - memory is a fragile thing.

[boris]

WaPo: In fairness, the environment was different then because we were closer to Sept. 11 and people were still in a panic

Yes, when people are in a panic waterboarding seems less shockworthy. Go figure. Seems people's panic for their own lives trumps their conscience over inducing some autonomic reflexive panic in terrorists from water up their noses.

[JM Hanes]

I don't think anybody but news junkies even pays attention to what goes on in Washington these days. And why should they? There are no election "cycles" any more, it's just one long permanent campaign, all talking points, and promises and "plans" that never actually materialize. You bring home bacon, you keep your job. Ideological competition is on its deathbed, and if it weren't for a steady stream of scandal fodder, like the CIA tapes, to gin 'n spin, we'd have no politics at all. I predict that the 2008 election turnout will set the same kind of record low we're seeing in Congressional/media/... approval ratings. Neither party has a discernable advantage with the possible exception of incumbency, because who has actually done anything lately, how can you tell 'em apart, and who really cares? In '08, all politics, if any, really will be local.

[Topsecretk9]

Democrats lying g again about what they know and when they knew it. DUH

[clarice]

JMH, I DO think the voters have had it with this nonsense, too.

[Sara]

I want to know how you combat this?

Conversation I had last weekend:

Person #1: You like President Bush?

Me: Yes, I like him.

#1: I hate him.

Me: Why?

#1: He hates Mexicans and has them shot on sight.

Me: What? Who told you such a thing?

#1: Everyone knows it. My Mother and my Aunt hate him too.

Me: Rolls eyes

Age of #1: Twelve

This is what America's Hispanic children are being told.

[Topsecretk9]

So after looking at the lefty blogs, they way I see, the Democrats complicit in all the programs utilized to protect Americans decided to use these programs against the Administration because they were desperate for power and now have created a giant quagmire for themselves with their unhinged base. That sound about right?

[SlimGuy]

TS9

Various blogs on the left are even pointing out switching positions of Jay Rocky and some are calling for Pelosi and Reid to be considered for replacement and Biden just simply went Howard Deanish this morning.

Even the Kos kids are shredding around the edges.

Don't even ask what is happening over at DU and Talk Left and FDL and OpenLeft and DownWithTyranny.......this is mixed company and it would be impolite to quote some of the things they are saying today.

[Sara]

When your supporters wake up to the fact that you are the ones who have been lying to them all along, well hell hath no fury, like a lefty or a teenager - which just about covers the left.

[SlimGuy]

OT

Anyone following the issue if Kosovo is going to declare independence tomorrow?

[Elliott]

Maybee,

It would be nice to know which members of Congress worried the administration's strategy was not sufficiently aggressive. Even if neither was a Democrat, it's still pathetic given their current posture not only that Harman's seems to be the only documented Democratic objection but also that, unless I'm missing something, she had no fellow signatories.

[MayBee]

Elliott-
I have to believe at least some Democrats were fully on board with this at one time. They were ok when it was extraordinary rendition.
And the was Schumer and Feinstein came through and voted for Mukasey after the Dems brought up waterboarding at his hearing (as a reason to block him) makes it fairly obvious that they couldn't hang their hat on the anti-waterboarding peg.

I think TS has it about right. The Dems have been anti-Iraq, anti-torture as a way of hurting Bush, all the while depending on him to keep their secrets and keep the programs going.

[hit and run]

Elliott:
It would be nice to know which members of Congress worried the administration's strategy was not sufficiently aggressive.

MayBee:
The Dems have been anti-Iraq, anti-torture as a way of hurting Bush, all the while depending on him to keep their secrets and keep the programs going.

Getting to the bottom of this whole matter seems very, very unlikely.

Unless we start waterboarding some Dems.

Jus' sayin'....

[Neo]

Because Fitzgerald is a superior officer?

Oversight by Public Domain is still in force.

[SlimGuy]

Sara

I have to agree.

The Dems keep going back to that well over and over and over and yet the left still drinks the water....along with other things.

[Neo]

Unless we start waterboarding some Dems.

I think all members of Congress should be waterboarded, on principle.

Questions could be submitted via YouTube (perhaps the questioners should be waterboarded too).

I'd like to know if Rep. Rangel is really for the draft reinstatement, as he keeps submitting legislation. I think he does it just to make people turn on the military. Inquirering minds want to know.

[SlimGuy]

Neo

Rangel wants the draft so the moonbats will have some skin in the game. That was really what carried the protests back in VietNam days.

It never was a policy debate for most as loud as they shouted it, they were if sat down and talked to them afraid of getting their a$$ shot off.

[Sara]

Newsbusters has a post up NBC to Air Freedom’s Watch Ads, AP Seems Displeased

that has this regarding the AP's attitude about FreedomWatch.org:

The group's home page is critical of liberals and has a link to a page urging lawmakers not to "cut and run" from the war in Iraq.

I'm sorry, but shouldn't saying Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, Happy Holidays, and Thank You to the troops be an American issue, not a liberal or conservative one?

The AP which has consistently falsified facts, photos and propagated misinformation about Iraq and our troops is unhappy that NBC has come to their senses and will run a thank you to the troops. It is unconscionable.

The fact that mostly conservatives support FreedomWatch is an indictment against liberals and their traitorous ways, not some kind of political statement about conservatives.

[Topsecretk9]

Byran at Hot Air observes

Notice what else Pelosi knew about: The CIA’s so-called black sites where terrorists were being held overseas. And she did not object.

[Sara]

It never was a policy debate for most as loud as they shouted it, they were if sat down and talked to them afraid of getting their a$$ shot off.

Exactly.

[SlimGuy]

YouTube of the day

LINK 

[Jane]

Slimguy,

I'm following. Apparently the chances are not great. What are you hearing?

[SlimGuy]

LINK

 

December 10th is the end of the road for negotiations:

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - EU leaders are expected to agree this week that efforts to reach a negotiated solution to the Kosovo problem are exhausted, and offer to take responsibility for security and justice in the breakaway Serbian province.

But Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said on Sunday "artificial deadlines" for finding a solution to Kosovo's status were not binding and could raise risks to stability.

EU negotiator Wolfgang Ischinger will brief European Union foreign ministers on Monday on the results of four months of mediation efforts and urge them to help stabilize the Balkan territory by sending in police and justice officials soon.

"It is clear that the future of Serbia and Kosovo lies in the European Union. That's something that both sides agree on," EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana said in an interview with Germany's Welt am Sonntag newspaper.

"We were given 120 days but if we had been given 1,200 days the outcome would have been the same," an aide quoted Ischinger as telling Solana.

[Neo]

I took a look over at "Crooks and Liars". They were hung up on why the WaPo piece made it look like the Democrats were in charge back in Sep 2002. On the 103rd (or 104th) comment, I informed tehm that the Senate was under Democratic control in Sep 2002 (and in Oct when the Iraq War Resolution was voted up).

Over 100 comments and nobody noticed the error.

[Elliott]

MayBee,

Sounds right to me. It had completely escaped my notice until it was mentioned at Hot Air that the WaPo article indicates there were no objections to the "secret prisons" pre-Harman. ( I see also, upon rereading, I was also wrong to conclude that Harman's letter, in which she probably objected to quite a few aspects of the CIA's program, only took exception to techniques.) It's almost enough to make me forget that the Republicans criticism of Democrats over the Department of Homeland Security will ever remain the most heinous example of a party cravenly playing politics with national security.

As for Schumer's vote, I think that was about preserving his own power. He'd have lost what ability he has to dictate nominations if someone he'd judged acceptable had failed.

[SlimGuy]

In other news, it sounds like we are having a Taliban Turkey Shoot over in Afghanistan this month, by all the reports I am reading.

They are even getting their hat handed to them in Pakistan in parallel.

[Sara]

Remind me again, wasn't Harman the one that Pelosi was hellbent on getting rid of. If she was the one objecting, doesn't that say it all on where Pelosi and her minions heads were back then?

[SlimGuy]

Breaking

Britain to turn over Basra province to Iraq in two weeks as announced by Brown this morning.