Live From Boston

I met three business-community Republicans at a social event last night, two of whom have raised money for Mitt Romney in the past.  All deeply dislike his turn to the right on social issues and his retirement on active duty while ostensibly in the Governor's chair; all can be counted as firm non-supporters.

Party-goers also sought reassurance that Huckabee would not be the next nominee.

What that means I can't say - I report, you deride.

I am now heading north - New Hampshire, ho.  But not nappy-headed.

Comments

[Jane]

MA is a very odd place. Romney was a bit of an invisible governor, which is interesting because our legislature if 85% democrat. And just about everyone on the right in this state, is not on the right on social issues, myself included. I also don't know a lot of people in MA (some but not a lot) who support Romney's run. It's not an avid dislike, just an ambivalence. And I don't know anyone who has adequately explained it. I think it's a lack of charisma but who the hell knows. It seems odd that anyone in MA would expect Romney not to move to the right on social issues and make a serious run for President.

Meanwhile Yukky Huk is getting creamed on Stephanopolus as we speak. And I mean creamed. Frankly I'm shocked. I would have guessed that George would be propping him up.

[kim]

Social conservatives and fiscal conservatives will compromise on a Thompson/Romney or vice versa ticket which will attract moderates as Obama is hoist on his hopetard.
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[kim]

Hey, J, maybe S is taking out his feelings.
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[BD]

I'd say your Boston Republicans know what it takes to be a minority party and long for the good old days, when Republicans didn't have to worry about governing.

[kim]

OK, OK, I suspect George S. detects more similarities there than just Arkansas governerships in common.
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[kim]

It's not the governing, BD, it's the communicating through the gag.
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[NCC]

Oh, no, the GOP Presidential candidate won't take Massachusetts!

[centralcal]

I missed Steph, Jane. I would have loved to see Huck get creamed. I did manage to see Russert and McCain. Johnny boy has his anger under control and is playing his elder statesman role this a.m.

[clarice]

Howie Carr did a job on the Clintons in today's Boston Herald.As for Obama he compares him to Duvall Patrick who also believes in the politics of hope but not in snow plowing.

[SunnyDay]

I report, you deride
***************************

You're new subtitle?

[SunnyDay]

you're=your

[clarice]

Tehe ABC debate will be rebroadcast tonight at 7.

[bio mom]

Wait for c-Span to see the debates if you missed them. Don't miss the Republican forum at 8 on Fox News tonight. Of course, the CNN-Fox rivalry is why CNN is promoting and showing the ABC debate.

Charlie Gibson was a fantastic moderator!!

[Rick Ballard]

For polling fans - I took a look at the Iowa results in contrast to the last poll predictions prior to the caucuses. When you look at the Rep and Dem charts for NH, bear in mind that CNN and ARG were pimping hard for Clinton in Iowa - they, like Politico, wear the Red Witch label.

It's going to be very interesting to see how Rasmussen does in NH. How will the Red Witch spin a double digit loss, should it come to pass? What happens if the spread widens to 20 points? Dean's Revenge could turn into a real cliffhanger.

[Rick Ballard]

Typhus Pad is acting up again.
Dem chart

[centralcal]

Oh brother. Just saw this at Polipundit.com:

"GOFFSTOWN, N.H. – The largest newspaper in South Carolina is asking Fred Thompson to drop out of the Republican nomination and endorse John McCain.

“It’s time for him to do the principled thing,” writes The State’s editorial page director, Brad Warthen. “He should bow out, and support McCain. And he should do it now; now is when he can make a difference.”

I don't know even know where to begin. Anyone here know what give is So. Carolina? Does this paper have ties to McCain?

[clarice]

It endorsed McCain. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

At the moment the independents McCain was counting on in NH are going for Obama. It looks like Obama will beat Hill by over 10% and Romney is creaming McCain.

[Jane]

I haven't seen the Romney "creaming" McCain stats. I also haven't read the Howie Carr piece yet, but I tell I roared when Deval Patrick said his inability to get the roads plowed (turning a 30 minute commute into 8 hours for many people) was "an act of God" so he couldn't be held responsible. And all the same people who blame Katrina on George Bush, bought it.

[Other Tom]

I don't know how I could be more depressed than I am about the Republican field. And I'm so low about it that I've become philosophical: these things come in never-ending cycles, and now it's the other side's turn. The important thing now--and it's a shoo-in--is to make sure that the legacy of the last of their lot to hold the White House is appropriately diminished. ("Appropriately" in this case means "made to appear ridiculous.") In contratst, Reagan remains a giant in the world's memory--at least we've got that.

I'm thinking of an outline sketch of a Bill Clinton obit: (1) in two presidential election victories, never got 50% of the vote; (2) his VP rejected by the electorate; (3) his wife rejected by his own party. And oh, yeah, (4) he was impeached and disbarred. Will that do?

[Other Tom]

By the way, the Tradesports numbers are quite stunning: Obama 60.5, Hillary 38.9.
(Am I the only Tradesports freak around here, or do you all eagerly await my reports?)

[centralcal]

Other Tom - I enjoy the Tradesports numbers. Your obit outline skills ain't too bad either, but boy can each point be fleshed out! And, yes there is a subtle pun in there.

[RichatUF]

Rick-

What happens if the spread widens to 20 points?

Nice job with the polls. It looks like they over sampled the model DLC voter [over-representing Clinton's and Richardson's support] and under sampled center left independents and new voters. I suppose they were all surprised at the draw of a "charismatic movement"[...pass the soma, vote for change, go to sleep...]

What I remember of the SC rules, with cross-over and independents voting in the democrat primary, it is possible that Obama could pull off a substantial double digit win in SC as well.

If The Red Witch were to tank 20 points in NH, I'm sure the Clinton's go ugly. For Florida residents, I'm thinking in terms of the "Foley type op" on Gov. Crist that some "advocacy firms" did, which proved to be ineffective. Most of the campaign was talk radio based and the group didn't have a web presence at all. They can probably target the good ole boy democrats here in Florida, launder it all through 527's using mail and radio, and have the media blame the attacks on Romney-a twoffer.

Since Obama is a cypher, I'm sure his finances [a millionaire through government service], any "problems in his marriage", and connections to the Chicago machine all go to the top of the list. Add in drug use, race, and his muslim names-the canvas almost paints itself.

[sbw]

Other, isn't Tradesports designed to pick the highest votegetter? Doesn't that perturb the real question of percentage of votes a candidate will get?

[Ann]

Other Tom:

We eagerly await your reports and everything you have to say :)

[Ralph L]

a millionaire through government service
I've been wondering about that, too, since I heard he was well off. No one ever looked closely into the Gores' money either, and the cattle futures didn't appear until after the 92 election.

[MayBee]

I don't know how I could be more depressed than I am about the Republican f

Really? I love Rudy and really like McCain. I think Thompson could be an excellent President, and Romney as well (although he doesn't excite me). I'm so happy, I actually registered Rep for the first time ever (I have to for the CA primaries).

[Sara]

Romney isn't running away from the President. This is the 2nd debate I've seen where he praised the President and said he deserved credit where credit is due for keeping this country safe. And, although I think McCain was just awful last night, I will say that he deserves kudos for his praise of Petraeus.

Fred was on Fox and Friends in the wee hours of the morning and said straight out that he would be surprised if he garnered any support in N.H. He was in the state strictly because of the two debates. But, he went on to say that as soon as tonight's debate is over, he is on the way to South Carolina where he hopes to win. Said he has raised quite a bit of money and he intends to use it wisely in S.C.

[MayBee]

Since Obama is a cypher, I'm sure his finances ...

I soooo don't care about any of this stuff. I want someone that is an effective leader and will chose policies I want and will find a way to get it done.

[Sara]

He also said he was surprised, but happily so, at his finish in Iowa. Said it was totally unexpected.

[RichatUF]

centralcal-

Disregard that, here is the guy's blog item on it. Here is today's column-they haven't endorsed yet, but Warthen is a McCain booster.

[clarice]

Troofer Sibel Edmonds worked her magic on the UK TImes and bloggers have picked up on her crap to suggest that Marc Grossman (remember him?) was part of the Turkish, Israeli,Iranian spy ring). How crackpot is she? She claims the hapless bureaucrat Larry Franklin was in the middle of this and was jailed on Jan 06. Too good for the Times to check, but he's still out on bond and was never even charged with spying--only mishandling classified info.

[Jane]

OT: You should be commissioned to write that obit.

[Ralph L]

MayBee, who can be an effective leader if half the country believes you're a crook? We've been doing that the last 15 years (with a brief interlude after 9/11), and while our side has had a few successes, the failures are huge. It (corruption) also reveals an unattractive grasping nature.

[RichatUF]

Maybee-

I don't like it either, but negative campaiging is done because it works. And I'm just saying that that is what I expect the Clinton's to do, not what I'd like to see. I'm a wonkish guy, I'd much rather hear an informed debate, with a sharp contrast of ideas and proposals-ie partisanship.

But the Clinton campaign is in deep trouble, and when they are in trouble, expect the usual solutions-the politics of fear, personal destruction, and polls.

[Jane]

I soooo don't care about any of this stuff.

I care about it tremendously. Pork is my number 2 issue. And pork that goes directly into an elected official's hands should result in him getting kicked out of office. I'm so sick of making all these lazy slobs rich.

[PeterUK]

"Bill Clinton obit: (1) in two presidential election victories, never got 50% of the vote; (2) his VP rejected by the electorate; (3) his wife rejected by his own party. And oh, yeah, (4) he was impeached and disbarred. Will that do?"

(5) He had an interesting way with a cigar.

[Topsecretk9]

Clarice

One detail the troofers seem to gloss over with Sibel is she was employed only 6 months.

[clarice]

Well, there's also that. I am disappointed tha t instapundit cited to both the Times s tory and lawbloggers blog (which links to a troofer blog cnameing Grossman).

[Topsecretk9]

Clarice

Don't be disappointed. Wait till the troofer nuts figure out their hero was so connected to the ACT crime syndicate the awarded him! Really throws a monkey wrench in his herodom wouldn't you say?

[MayBee]

MayBee, who can be an effective leader if half the country believes you're a crook?

I would say half the country thinks Bush is a crook and a good 1/3 of the country thinks he should be prosecuted, but that has no basis in the truth. What half the country thinks has more to do with what they want to think than any kind of real investigation. In the current environment, I think people too much love to indulge themselves by imagining that every politician they don't like is a crook (or lied us into war, or let black people die in Katrina, etc).

I care about it tremendously. Pork is my number 2 issue.

I don't like pork either, but I see that as a separate issue from whether some politician got a favorable real estate deal from someone. I think anyone that raises enough money to run for president is, by the odds alone, going to have something a little 'iffy' somewhere in their financial dealings.
Corruption is another thing entirely.
Look at McCain- he's great on pork but he looked bad during the savings and loan scandal.

[MayBee]

oops

[PeterUK]

"The wider nuclear network has been monitored for many years by a joint Anglo-American intelligence effort. But rather than shut it down, investigations by law enforcement bodies such as the FBI and Britain’s Revenue & Customs have been aborted to preserve diplomatic relations."

This would be the same Revenue and Customs that lost the private details of 25,000,000 people.Bank numbers,names, addresses,number of children,income,benefit entitlement.They simply put them all on a disc and a junior staff member gave them to a courier.Haven't been seen since!

[MayBee]

I think Sibel Edmunds has no idea what she heard (things aren't always what they seem, right?), but her story has gotten more detailed the further away in time she gets from it. She is the blabbiest "gagged" person I've ever read about.

[clarice]

HEH--It takes a village of idiots,PUK.

[anduril]

Link to Brit Hume soundbite re McCain:

McCain at his worst

[Sara]

Well as far as I'm concerned the world is upside down this morning with Fox hanging on every word from a HuffPo Blogger and last night from John Martin of Politico. What's with that?

[MayBee]

retry: (not that it's so fascinating)
MayBee, who can be an effective leader if half the country believes you're a crook?

I would say half the country thinks Bush is a crook and a good 1/3 of the country thinks he should be prosecuted, but that has no basis in the truth. What half the country thinks has more to do with what they want to think than any kind of real investigation. In the current environment, I think people too much love to indulge themselves by imagining that every politician they don't like is a crook (or lied us into war, or let black people die in Katrina, etc).

[RichatUF]

PeterUK-

What is it about papers in the UK? I'm surprised that she is floating back to the top-I thought she was one of the denser turds that sank to the bottom in the toofer septic tank.

From what I remember, it took her about 2 months on the job to start making compliants and kept taking them upward. I suppose psychological screening isn't the FBI's best suit.

[MayBee]

I care about it tremendously. Pork is my number 2 issue.

I don't like pork either, but I see that as a separate issue from whether some politician got a favorable real estate deal from someone. I think anyone that raises enough money to run for president is, by the odds alone, going to have something a little 'iffy' somewhere in their financial dealings.
Corruption is another thing entirely.
Look at McCain- he's great on pork but he looked bad during the savings and loan scandal.

[kim]

Supposedly gagged, but the article has a hint that this comes out now because the 'program' was shut down in January 2002. Is there some significance to that?

I don't know about Marc. And I really don't know about Sibel. If this stuff is true, the mud sticks more to the Clinton foreign policy people than to Bushes. Maybe she knows a little truth and imagines a lesser one. And I'm sure looking for Joe in the woodpile.
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[kim]

John Martin's bias is flecked all over his rabid screed, Sara.
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[Jane]

I don't like pork either, but I see that as a separate issue from whether some politician got a favorable real estate deal from someone.

I don't. Maybe I should, but I don't. Now maybe all politicians are bought and the difference is in the degree, but everyone in national office is a millionaire - or close to everyone, and few of them brought it with them. I really think a major incentive these days for running is to get rich. And they are getting rich off of my pay check.

[PeterUK]

"It takes a village of idiots,"

I know,but why do they all work in government? Is there some degree in Politics,Economics and Stupidity they all take?

The interview,
Now Miss Fobjoy a few questions:-

"Where are yoir car keys?"

"Dunno"

"Good answer,where are your reading glasses?"

"Er,on the bedside table".

"So Mis Fobjoy,you won't be able to read the address on this envelope?"

"Doesn't make any difference,I'm dyslexic".

"Excellent,welcome Revenue and Customs"

"Fank yew,won't be able to start till I've finished me community service...can't do Wenszdys,gotta see my theraperist,f' me nerves"

"Wonderful Miss Fobjoy,just the calibre of person,no gender,race creed,sexual orientation or political affiliation implied,we need at Revenue and Customs".

[Bill in AZ]

OT - I share your pessimism of the Rep field, even more so after the raising of Obama to somewhere above &Diety after Iowa. There is only one candidate who is more or less a Republican and who would at least make an attempt to stand up for its principals, and that is Thompson. The rest are so mushy as to be worthless, or worse, and will dribble away whatever we have left - which is not very much.

McCain would "reach across the aisle" if it were 99 Reps to 1 Dem, especially if that Dem was Kennedy. The rest would dribble things away because socialism "feels good", and for "partisanship", or for whatever.

What is particularly troubling about Saint Obama is that he is unfortunately very electable, and for no good, valid reason. He is a "stupid" socialist - a socialist because socialism "feels good", because other "smart" people are socialists - without any understanding of the damage it causes and has already caused in this country. Hillary, at least, is a conniving, true socialist who knows what she is doing and why. She would be just as at home leading Communist Russia back in the day, as she will be when she leads us there if she gets a chance. "If Only..." we had given socialism a proper chance!! That is what she is after. She *knows* it will work - *If Only* we could give it a proper chance. The mantra of all true socialists.

The problem is that socialism is so pervasive in this country already that most people don't even understand how it occurs or what it has done. The obvious visible things are taxes, welfare, etc. The unobvious are things you don't see or don't realize are redistribution of wealth - a good example hit home here in the last few years. College tuition:

My last couple of kids are in college, and the last one especially did very well in high school, numerous scholarships, chose a good (expensive) school, and deserved it. Unfortunately, every single "merit" scholarship turned out to be "need" limited. I make too much, so the net of all her scholarships amount to nil against tuition. No problem, I can theoretically afford it. To add insult to injury, I make too much to even deduct the multiple 10's of thousands in tuition each year. Now there is some unobvious redistribution of wealth crap. I don't ask for much from my government. I made it on my own. I even spent time working in farm labor camps a lifetime ago, and it never even occurred to me then that there was anything wrong with that - hard times and we did what we had to. But when school teachers amongst my relatives have more spendable money than me, I really get tired of the spread-the-wealth crap - and it's pretty effective. No matter what each of us does, we all get to spend about the same amount of money on ourselves.

Now here is where the danger lies, and it is happening all over this country just as it has over any country that devolved into socialism. There comes a point where it is pointless to "advance" in your career. More money, more productivity, more responsibility - to what end? At some point it becomes diminishing returns, nay, negative returns, on an exponential scale - you make more, and give away 3 times more than your incremental increase.

So you stop increasing productivity. And then folks below you hit that same point and they stop increasing productivity. And then folks below them, etc. Pretty soon, everyone is feeding at the trough and no one is putting anything in. Socialism.

Most folks who don't make what they consider a lot of money (which is everyone, it's relative) will consider this as just so much whining, and it is, but it illustrates just how pervasive socialism already is in our society - and when you look at a sea of candidates, save *maybe* one, who will only advance this cancer on us, it is pretty depressing.

[Topsecretk9]

I'm sorry, I just think it's funny that by implicating Marc Grossman in some Nuc cahoots with ACT she is implicating Joe Wilson too.

[Bill in AZ]

heh - sorry, didn't realize it was such a long post...

[clarice]

Bill, be lucky she didn't have to pretend you were an abusive cocaine addict in order to get past the admissions process. There are now people helping upper class kids with great grades from intact familieis pretend to be disadvanraged in their essays so they can get into good colleges.

In many ways, the system punishes the ant to help out the grasshopper.

[clarice]

PUK, Look at the bright side. The smartest young people are picking private enterprise over govt service and they'll make enough money to bribe the bureaucrats and legislators to prevent them from doing irreparable harm.

[PeterUK]

RichatUF

They are just trying to sell newspapers,it's a business like all the others.American election time,do an American story.

[kim]

C'mon, Bill, where's the 'hope' that we can all 'change' enough to be workable socialists. Pooch, maybe there is a good reason Joe was so sure that yellowcake hadn't gone to Iraq.
=====================

[PeterUK]

Yes Clarice,but they aren't doing here,they are emigrating.The public sector expanded under Comrade Blair and is growing inexorably under McStalin.
Rules and regulations come gibbering out of Brussels clogging everything like the Martian Red Weed.The only other growth industry is crime.

[MayBee]

Now maybe all politicians are bought and the difference is in the degree,

I don't think they are all bought, and I do care if someone is bought. I do think any candidate can be investigated and implications made so they look bought.
I remember shortly after Bush was in office, the first financial scandal floated about him involved some Texas funeral home. The most rabid Dems I knew were calling for a special prosecutor to investigate it. They really thought they'd get an impeachment out of it.
That's the kind of stuff I don't want to hear about, and digging into the competition ends up being counterproductive because it just invites silly retribution.

[MayBee]

I'm sorry, I just think it's funny that by implicating Marc Grossman in some Nuc cahoots with ACT she is implicating Joe Wilson too.

And Valerie too, I would imagine. Wasn't she at the Turkish embassy for work when she met Joe? And her work was nuclear proliferation.

[clarice]

She met Joe at a Turkish Embassy reception hosted by Grossman and I have it on good authority that Wilson used his connections with that Embassy and his wife to tout his business .

[JM Hanes]

anduril:

Props to Brit Hume: McCain looked small, Romney won, & the question is how many people actually saw it. Has anybody noticed any stats on whether NH households were tuning in? Or are they all out in the bars?

I thought Obama's best moment last night was when he said he was alternating between watching the Republicans and the game. Linking the Anbar Awakening to the '06 Democratic surge in Congress will come back to haunt him -- or should.

[Topsecretk9]

Wasn't she at the Turkish embassy for work when she met Joe? And her work was nuclear proliferation.

Yes. And who was Valerie and Joe in constant contact with as late as Jan/Feb 2003 about the Niger fandango (Val's emails?)? Curious, since Val takes credit for Khan. I guess she missed Grossman or didn't care?

[Sara]

My son, who if it doesn't have a football or baseball somewhere in the story, has no interest at all said something funny to me just now.

He is sitting in the car in the Qualcomm Stadium parking lot trying to stay warm and dry before going in for the playoff game that doesn't start for more than an hour. He couldn't find the Giants/Tampa Bay game on the radio, so he just called for an update. He was surprised the Giants were winning. So I said, wouldn't it be something if the Giants and Indy go all the way and we have Manning against Manning in the Super Bowl?

Yikes! My ear is still ringing as he yelled into the phone, "God NO Mom, that would be worse than presidential politics and the anointing of Obama and a Hillary shriek and cackle. I would go crazy!"

[centralcal]

JM Hanes: CNN is airing the entire debate again tonite - head-to-head with the Fox forum. They wanna get any rating they can to take away from Fox. So, I think plenty of people will see it (again?).

I expect McCain to be on better behavior tonite (if he is capable of it, that is) because I am sure he's been told how poorly he came across. Luckily his bad temper and his pettiness has a replay tonite on an opposing cable station.

[MayBee]

I have it on good authority that Wilson used his connections with that Embassy and his wife to tout his business .

Oh, I bet. His supporters that believe him that he didn't want to go to Niger (for free!) to improve his own bring to my mind a picture of the fervor flushed-cheeks of the people card section at Kim Jong Il's parades.
Seeing how badly he and Larry DON'T want Obama makes me support Obama a little bit more. They seem to fear what he'll do to their little fiefdom.

I still say Sibel, no matter what she heard or didn't hear, has no idea what she really heard. Why she's trying to parlay it all into something more, I've no idea.

[RichatUF]

It looks like Krugman got a new batch of talking points. His contribution to Team Clinton

grafs-

On the Republican side, foreign policy talk is all bluster and braggadocio. To listen to the G.O.P. candidates, you'd think it was still February 2003, when the national discourse was dominated by people who thought that American military might was sufficient to shock and awe the rest of the world into doing our bidding.

Because the next election US military forces, as if by magic, will not be in harms way.

...some of Barack Obama's supporters there seems to be a belief that if their candidate is elected, the world's problems will melt away in the face of his multicultural charisma.

Memo: It won't work on the Chinese.

Obama might be clean, good looking, but the Chinese can see right through him.

But what they should be looking for is something more prosaic - a good negotiator, someone who can bargain effectively with some very tough customers and get the deals we need on energy, currency policy and carbon credits.

Hummmm.... didn't The Red Witch have some incantations during the last conclave nibbling on this. I wouldn't be surprised to see a "surge" in "Red Menace" coverage dealing with "energy, currency policy, and carbon credits [ie indulgencies]" in the NYT in the coming days and low-and-behold The Red Witch has the right elixir in her pouches. The Comeback Kid™ narrative ain't dead yet.

[PeterUK]

"I still say Sibel, no matter what she heard or didn't hear, has no idea what she really heard. Why she's trying to parlay it all into something more, I've no idea"

I would agree,that much information would simply become a noise.
Why did she do it,same reason all these nonentities do these things,fifteen minutes of fame.

[Sara]

Now that everyone has had a couple of days to savor the Hillary comeuppance in Iowa, it is time to come back down to earth. After listening to Obama last night and hearing just how totally clueless he is, i.e., Anbar Awakening being about Sunni and Shiite, rather than Sunni against al-Qaeda and attributing the surge success to the dems winning Congress, I'm hoping that Hillary does get her mojo back. This kind of naivete out of Obama is dangerous. Hillary might spout some hair raising socialist BS, but she does have some restraints on her, even if it is only her husband. Obama, on the other hand, should he win, will set us back to the Carter Doctrine. He really believes the stuff he says, whereas Hillary knows the truth, just ignores it for purposes of the campaign.

Please don't think I've suddenly turned into a HilBill supporter. But, of the two, I would far rather see her get the nomination than Obama, who seems to be casting a spell over the very badly informed younger voters.

[JM Hanes]

Clarice:

I remember running across Edmonds back when I was pondering the Turkish Connection and the Grossman factor. Regardless of the troofer quotient, I do believe Edmonds was right when she said, "don't overlook him -- he is very important." Considering the pivotal role he played at every step in the Wilson saga, it still amazes me that he's managed to avoid almost anything in the way of serious scrutiny. In retrospect, I also think that his service in Pakistan may have been worth considerably more attention than I gave it at the time (and ditto for Armitage in that regard).

The whole NoKorea/Pakistan/Turkey/Africa line up makes my antennae buzz. It's a nuclear silk road. Just this morning I read somewhere that's it's been an open secret which our intel professionals, in their wisdom, consistently backburnered in order not to disturb diplomatic relationships -- talk about an irony of immense proportions on the "more diplomacy!" front.

Then you've got the State Dept.'s presumable enthusiasm for Bhutto, which just blew up in our faces. Her double dealing on both the nuclear & jihadi fronts, currently obscured by hagiographers, makes me wonder if she wasn't the devil our careerists knew all too well. I've been thinking we just need a China connection in there to complete the picture.

As before, alas, I see a virtual mountain of dots, and don't begin to know enough to connect almost any of them. Does State truly believe they're the only ones who really know how the world works, or are they advancing an internationalist agenda at the expense of our national interests, or are they, per Edmonds, "the most corrupt Dept. of all"? Grossman strikes me as a nexus of some kind, I just don't know what kind that would be. He is clearly willing to shade the truth, but who knows why and has anybody aside from the credibility-challenged Edmonds ever tried to figure it out?

[Jane]

It's fine with me if that stuff comes out in the general Sara. I'm thrilled to death at hillary's demise.

Unless of course it is huckabee. If that happens I may have to drop out of politics forever.

Nice story about Fred under my name.

[MayBee]

JMH- Silk Road. I like it.
I do find it interesting that the pro-sanctions/anti-Iraq war faction were tied so tightly to Turkey, and Turkey was somehow convinced not to support our efforts to let our troops enter Iraq from their lands.

[clarice]

Dots are a lot easier to connect when you know what the picture they are supposed to make is,jmh.Sibel has invented a coockamamie portrait--a giant octopus in which the neocons are working with Grossman who is working with the nuclear ring.

Poppycock.

As for State. It is corrupt. Most of the careerists go on the Saudi payroll when it's over. (Even Wilson did.)
Others adopt the view of the area they are supposed to cover or are tranzis for whom the entire notion of advancing our national interest is preposterous. And there are and have been many leftists there since FDR packed it full of them. But I don't see that they were working with AQ Khan.

[clarice]

BTW--Prouty,her sister,Edmonds--looks like the FBI's push for women Arabic translators hit a rough patch, doesn't it?

[Sara]

Grossman, well you all know what I've preached about him since first finding JOM. How he has escaped is beyond me.

[clarice]

Here's a list of members of Edmonds whistleblower group. http://www.nswbc.org/membership_list.htm
Any names familiar to you? Like-er-Larry Johnson?

How much you want to bet Soros funds this one, too. Along with the VIPS?

[MayBee]

Remember when she tried to sue Walton, just before the Libby trial?
She wanted access to his financial records.

[GMax]

BTW In Wyoming which is pretty fertile ground for less government libertarianism, Ron Paul does way worse than in Iowa. HMMM

I think the Ronulans are infected by leftleaning antiwar socialist types who are crossing over and even changing their registration ( easy to do same day in Iowa ) to try to create havoc for the Reps.

Wyoming's lack of interest in Paul supports my hypothethis, there just aint many lefties in Wyoming.

[Jane]

Would one of you drop by my living room and explain to me in person this whole Turkey thing?

[kim]

It wasn't plastic, Jane.
=======================

[kim]

I'm with JMHanes. I believe Sibel is imagining incorrectly from true data.
==========================

[Sara]

Michigan's jump to mid-January triggered shifts by Iowa and New Hampshire. The Democratic National Committee stripped Michigan of all its delegates to the national convention because it moved ahead of Feb. 5 without permission.

In shifting its primary forward, Florida hoped for a bigger role in the nominating process. The Democratic National Committee stripped Florida of all its delegates to the national convention because it moved ahead of Feb. 5 without permission.

I've asked this twice now in other threads, but here it is again. Anyone want to weigh in on how this stripping of delegates will affect the Dem. race, especially Obama?

[clarice]

I think in the end, if those delegate votes should matter the committee would not dare strip them away.

[Sara]

Perhaps the reason that the media has totally ignored Wyoming is that the New York Times primary election guide, where I grabbed the above on Michigan and Florida, lists every primary except Wyoming. And you know the MSM, if it isn't in the NYT, it either didn't happen or it isn't news.

[Sara]

They already did Clarice, are you saying they could give them back? I thought the candidates were barred from even campaigning in those states. Memory hazy though.

[clarice]

Jane, her story keeps changing and getting more and more fantastical. There is an American-Turkis organization which has many prominent ex-officials from all parties on it. Turkey has to now been a valuable ally and many of those people have found it not at all inconsistent to aid Turkish interests and those of the US (and their own business interests) simultaneously.

I don't know what she actually heard when she reportedly listened in on the committee.

I do know she made some charges about colleagues in the FBI translation office to start , lost her job and was unable to pursue it. Then her claims about this committee. And now it's morphed into a high DoS official working with the nuclear silk road crowd.

[clarice]

Sara, they said they'd strip them away--but there's stripping and stripping...

[Sara]

My gut feeling is that Edwards is hurt more by Michigan, the Union state. And Hillary is hurt more by Florida, since her support seems strongest with women over 65, if Iowa is any judge.

[GMax]

NH is an open primary. Reason why McCain did so well once upon a time. Should be fertile ground for Paul, with no tax, small government NH being full of libertarians. Hide and watch as he again does not pull much support.

And if some poll are suggesting, that Huck even under performs a lackluster showing by Paul, will the pundits stop hyperventilating about him? Look for a 4th or even 5th place show by the Huck.

[Sara]

The GOP stripped Wyoming of half its delegates too for the same reason, early primary.

[Jane]

Clarice,

Thanks. So how do Grossman, scary Larry and Joe and Val fit in?

[clarice]

Some are implyimg that the DoS official unnamed by her in the Times piece is Grossman, something troofer blogs have implied before.
scary Larry and Dan Ellisburg and others familiar to us are members of her Whistleblowers organization. Grossman is a friend of Val and Joe's.Val and Joe were helped in their attempted putsch by scarey Larry and the all star VIPS band, some of whom overlap Edmonds' group.

[anduril]

JMH, my view is that McCain is ego driven to an extent that makes other politicians look like normal, healthy people--he can't help himself and always finds a way to self-destruct. Hume's observation says no more than that McCain was playing true to form.

As for all the various Plamegate angles--unfortunately the only person with inside knowledge who has sufficient motive to tell all, as far as I can discern, is Libby. As far as I've heard--and I only know what I read on the internet--he's given no indication of doing so to date. My hope is that he'll do so post pardon.

[Jane]

Holy moly.

Well that helps. Thanks -

[MayBee]

When Edmonds first started to tell her tale to this blogger named Lukery, she said that Brewster-Jennings was involved in Grossman's duplicity.
Wilson and Plame (friends of Grossman's), of course, were active with the Turkish-American council (as was Scowcroft), which Edmonds says was bugged by the FBI and it was the transcripts of phone conversations from those buggings that she learned what she did. She has also implicated Dennis Hastert.
Her story is very spotty, because she is supposedly gagged. At one time it was about arms dealing, now it seems to have grown into a nuclear conspiracy. However, it seems that every new National Security news story gets woven into her ever-evolving tale. If someone's name is in the paper, they are incorporated as part of her odd little conspiracy.
When she was fired by the FBI, it was partially for accusing another translator of being a spy for Turkey.

[anduril]

Granted that Hugh Hewitt is running some sort of personal PAC for Romney, but he's right on, IMO, re McCain's performance. IMO, a McCain presidency would be a disaster because he plays with no one but himself--a true egomaniac who thinks bi-partisan means getting a leg up on your party mates:

It is obvious that in the space of just a couple of days, John McCain has rekindled the furious anger in the GOP base that he ignited with McCain-Kennedy immigration "reform" (twice), the Gang of 14, the votes against the Bush tax cuts and, of course, McCain-Feingold.

But it is mostly McCain's adamant refusal to acknowledge the many deep defects in his immigration bills that has started the bonfire anew.

The Manhattan-Beltway elite didn't see the public's rejection of the immigration "reform" coming last year, and they don't see it this year.  They think last night's debate and this morning's round of Sunday talk shows was about Romney taking all the arrows.  In fact, in the base, it is about the return of the old McCain who refuses to accept the widely shared view that his bill was far too soft on illegal immigrants, and far too short on security.  He now talks up security without candidly admitting just how soft his bills were on those who had crossed our borders illegally, and thus signals everyone who cares about the issue that he will try a third jam down just as soon as he is able.  Even GOP immigration moderates, and I am among them, don't believe in Social Security benefits for years spent working under a false number, and we don't believe in conferring voting rights on anyone who entered the country illegally who doesn't first go home for an extended stay.  We are also very suspicious of McCain's commitment to the real fence --the double layered one that actualy works in places like San Diego. 

And immigration hardliners and moderates alike hated the Z Visa because it was a charade.  Candor, please, and that's not what we got last year or last night from the Staright Talk Express.  McCain couldn't help himself because he really doesn't believe in even the moderate position.  That showed last night and this morning, and the days and weeks ahead will reflect the cost to his campaign.  To get the GOP nomination, you have to reflect the GOP's mainstream on all of the big issues, not just the war, and those include judges, tax cuts, and most certainly illegal immigration.

[Cecil Turner]

So how do Grossman, scary Larry and Joe and Val fit in?

To amplify Clarice's comment: Both Edmonds and Scary Larry are VIPS "Steering Group" members and general [truther?] nuts. She's also a member and spokesperson for the National Security Whistleblowers Coalition (famous for leaking details of the FISA story). Aside from the public support by Larry for Plame, Plame and Wilson were also direct respondents to the VIPS request asking for current CIA members to leak:

VIPS say their appeals to CIA staff are an attempt to evoke another Daniel Ellsberg, who leaked the Pentagon Papers, a top-secret study on U.S. involvement in Vietnam.

Marc Grossman was a star witness against Scooter, former buddy of Wilson (and admits at least discussing the case with him before it broke). At the least, they're all on the same side, so this is a bit of falling out amongst thieves.