Republicans (Sans Rudy) Have At It!

Let's have an open debate thread.

And if anyone can fact check the question of job creation in Massachusetts, that would be great.  McCain said Massachusetts was third lowest in the nation in job creation under Romney; Romney said the study McCain cited included the term of Romney's predecessor.

This would seem to be the basis of the McCain charge:

But Northeastern's Sum said that while jobs were created under Romney, the rate was the third-lowest in the nation after Hurricane Katrina-hit Louisiana and Michigan. At the same time, wages in the New England state stagnated during Romney's term.

The average weekly wage of Massachusetts workers, Sum said, rose by just a $1 between 2001 and 2006 after adjusting for inflation, while the state had the third-highest rate of population loss in the nation between July 2002 and July 2006.

Well, Romney was Governor from Jan 2003 to Jan 2007.

MORE:  Hit and Run finds this study, or summary thereof, from July 2007.  All of the relevant statistics seem to rely on a 2002 (pre-Romney) baseline, which seems right, except this concluding bit about housing prices:

There is one additional area in which Massachusetts was a national leader over the past five years, the rise in housing prices. Between 2000 and 2005, the median self-reported home price in Massachusetts increased by nearly 95 percent versus an increase of only 40 percent for the United States.

STILL MORE:  I am quite sure McCain ranked Massachusetts 47th, as per the study above.  However, this study from MassINC ranks Massachusetts 49th from 2001 to 2006, which means that Romney's predecessor was included.

IT DEPENDS ON THE MEANING OF "GROWTH":  From Rick Ballard:

It would be helpful to know the comparative formula that was used for determination of ranking [the fifty states] because while the labor force in MA grew by only 1,707 during Romney's tenure, the number of employed grew by 17,986. Not bad at all.

REGRETS ONLY:  Did I hear Romney say he had two great regrets in life and one was not serving in the military?  What was the other, not being pro-life ten years ago?  Romney's brush with service in Vietnam is described in this Times profile from last fall, which focused on his Mormon mission to France:

Most of the missionaries, though, were also relieved that their service meant a draft deferment. “I am sorry, but no one was excited to go and get killed in Vietnam,” Mr. Hansen said, acknowledging, “In hindsight, it is easy to be for the war when you don’t have to worry about going to Vietnam.”

Mr. Romney, though, said that he sometimes had wished he were in Vietnam instead of France. “There were surely times on my mission when I was having a particularly difficult time accomplishing very little when I would have longed for the chance to be serving in the military,” he said in an interview, “but that was not to be.”

While many Mormons — and eventually, some of his fellow missionaries — enlisted, Mr. Romney got a student deferment after returning from France. When the draft lottery was introduced in December 1969, he drew a high enough number — 300 — that he would never be called up.

Many church leaders considered the war a godly cause, and Mr. Romney said at the time he thought that it was essential to holding back Communism.

“I was surprised,” Mr. Romney recalled, “when I heard my father, then running for president, say that we were wrong, that we had been told lies by our military, that the course of the war was not going as well as we thought it was and that we had been mistaken when we had entered the war. It obviously caused me to reconsider what I had previously thought.”

He added, “Ultimately, I came to believe that he was right.”

Comments

[Jane]

Gee I thought I'd been abandoned.

[Ann]

Never Jane!

[Jane]

Romney answered it correctly I believe. Jane Swift preceded him - she was grandfathered in when someone (Weld? I forget who, left midstream) and she was a nightmare. So much so that when Romney began to run she dropped out of the race, as a sitting governor. My guess is the job loss for the most part occurred under her. (Of course I bring no sources to corroborate my allegation).

[Jane]

Maybe it was Paul Cellucci who was tapped by Bush to become the ambassador to Canada that she succeeded.

[centralcal]

I just now tuned in. CNN's sound and the candidates mouths are not matching up. I have had to turn the volume to full blast on both of my TV's to be able to hear them. Is it just a local cable problem with me, or are you guys having sound problems too?

[Jane]

Same problem here Centralcal.

[hit and run]

TM:
And if anyone can fact check the question of job creation in Massachusetts, that would be great.

Here's the article in question

[Porchlight]

Same here, Centralcal. It makes McCain look even more like he's talking out of both sides of his mouth.

[Jane]

Boy when you have watched 20 debates in a row, it gets old watching the candidates say the same things over and over and over again.

[Jane]

Hit,

I don't trust the Globe on Romney. The Globe is owned by the NY Times. But I can't analyze the numbers either.

[hit and run]

From the article, try this quote:

Formal payroll employment in the state in 2006 was still 16,000 or 0.5 percent below its average level in 2002, the year immediately prior to the start of the Romney administration. Massachusetts ranked third lowest on this key job generation measure and would have ranked second lowest if Hurricane Katrina had not devastated the Louisiana economy. Manufacturing payroll employment throughout the nation declined by nearly 1.1 million or 7 percent between 2002 and 2006, but in Massachusetts it declined by more than 14 percent, the third worst record in the country.

[Sue]

Great. McCain wouldn't even vote for his bill. Now. He understands. Now. We want secure borders. Of course, he understood that then, but this is. Now.

[Sue]

How long before history is history? 10 years? 20 years? 30 years? Is there a date certain when history becomes history?

[Jane]

Hit, it's purely anectdotal but my practice thrives in an adverse economy. It's often a bellweather. My slowest years ever were 2002 - 2007. In living thru it, MA thrived under Romney.

[centralcal]

I have a hard time commenting on McCain - my dislike for him exceeds even my dislike of Huckster.

[Sue]

Jane,

Which area of the law do you practice?

[hit and run]

Jane:
I don't trust the Globe on Romney

Oh gosh, I don't either. I mean this is the same globe who tried to nail Mitt for his yard workers, right?

That said, do note that the authors of the article are Northeastern University researchers, not Globe staff.

I wouldn't be surprised if the researchers exibited the same bias -- and certainly wouldn't blink twice if the Globe shopped around to find university researcher(s) who would abet in a hit job.

Or at least I wouldn't blink like Nancy Pelosi during a SOTU speech.

[Jane]

One that thrives in an adverse economy. (I'll tell you in email if you really want to know).

[Sue]

Romney isn't moving anyone in this debate.

We should now begin to work on how to influence the VP slot.

Any ideas?

[Rick Ballard]

"And if anyone can fact check the question of job creation in Massachusetts, that would be great."

OK. It would be helpful to know the comparative formula that was used for determination of ranking because while the labor force in MA grew by only 1,707 during Romney's tenure, the number of employed grew by 17,986. Not bad at all.

Anything else while I'm up?

[Ann]

I have decided I need a good lawyer and would appreciate any recommendations. I believe I have a good case for voter disinfranchisement.

o First the drive by media picked my guy

o Then the liberals and moderates picked my guy in Iowa, NH, SC and Florida

o Then 22 other states get to pick my guy on Feb 5, 2008

o I live in Ohio. By the time, I get to vote in March, I will not have "A" guy to vote on

[Sue]

Jane,

That's okay. I didn't think before I asked the question. Sorry. ::grin::

[Jane]

I'd assume the researchers have the same bias given the location. But I really don't know. I think Romney did a great job as governor with a 85% democrat legislature particularly compared to his predecessor and successor.

My favorite Romney story is under my name.

[Sue]

Ann,

It should be a class action lawsuit. Texas is in the same boat Ohio is in. We always get the shaft in picking the nominee.

I still don't know why it isn't done like the general election. All on one day.

[Sue]

Woohoo, Mitt. I like the stickin' up for Bush.

[hit and run]

Sue:
We should now begin to work on how to influence the VP slot.

Time to go covert. Find a real conservative and train him or her to act all Mavericky. Someone to stroke McCain's ego. Someone to ... oh crap, Huck's already got that bit locked up minus being a real conservative.

[Rick Ballard]

Sorry about the busted BLS link - hopefully this one will work.

[centralcal]

Good for Mitt - as McCain smirks with his silly little swollen jaw grin.

[Sue]

McCain isn't answering the question.

Woohoo. Romney is winning this one Mac.

[Ann]

Sue, what really irks me is that Ohio is important in the general.

Remember Kerry could of won if Ohio had voted for him.

[hit and run]

Sue:
It should be a class action lawsuit. Texas is in the same boat Ohio is in. We always get the shaft in picking the nominee.

Well, shoot. We here in NC don't vote until May.

But let me give you some straight-talk. There was a bill here before the state senate that would have moved us to Super Tuesaday -- and the state apparently never watched School House Rock.

If your state wanted to be a part of the fun, it is not beyond its power to join the festivities...

(Of course, if you try and leap ahead of super Tuesday, you get punished)

[Sue]

The crowd just booed McCain's response. Am I hearing a second chance? Could there still be life in Mitt?

[Jane]

I actually like the fact that Romney raised that McCain raised the issue three days before the Florida primary.

[Jane]

I think McCain is coming off badly. I wish someone less biased against him would weigh in.

[GMax]

There is a long and honored tradition of ticker balancing that will be given extreme preference. Since McCain has moderates and independents he will look to shore up his Reoublican base. That means someone you will like. Hopefully its a Dan Quayle type, pretty boy empty suit. It will be a younger man I predict, and likely someone as a favorite son who has a chance of picking off one or more Blue states.

I still like Michael Steele on all of those counts. Probably wont be him because of that. Actually come to think of it, the Governor of Minnesota, Tim Pawlenty has a shot if he has not publicly endorsed someone else already. Anyone know which horse he has been riding to this point? Guiliani or McCain or unaffiliated all works. Romney would probably be poison.

Phil Gramm would be a great V/P but I just cant see him doing it, and the ticket would get a bunch of jazz about the Centrum Silver ticket.

[hit and run]

Ohio: On 13 July 2007, a bill to move the General and Presidential primaries from 4 March to 29 January 2008 was introducted in the state Senate.

Texas: The Texas House passed HB 2017 on 13 April 2007. Both and HB 996 would move the Texas Presidential and General Primary from the first Tuesday March (4 March 2008) to the first Tuesday in February (5 February 2008). The bill passed the Senate State Affairs committee 6-3 on 8 May 2007. These bills died when the Texas Legislature adjourned in May 2007.

[Jane]

CNN should not be allowed to hold debates.

[Sue]

Jane,

That wouldn't be me. As Clarice is famous for saying, he makes my teeth itch.

But, in his sort of defense, I remember Romney, at one of the debates, before it was clear to everyone that the surge was working, wouldn't commit an answer on whether it was working or not.

[centralcal]

McCain did come off badly, Jane. But, worse than that his pettiness literally oozes from his pores.

All the man has in his resume is his support for the surge. Nothing else. Nothing. I believe the war on terror is very important, but it is his only big kahuna, and that only to WIN an election.

[Jane]

Sounds like the Huckster is talking about himself as much as Putin. He does one thing, and then says another.

[Sue]

What is an attack ad?

[hit and run]

GMax - Pawlenty is a national co-chair for McCain.

[Jane]

Oooh I like the way Romney is framing this Russia, China, al Qaeda and us thing. So of course Anderson Cooper shuts him off.

[Jane]

McCain sounds ridiculous, but Romney should not have mouthed something.

[Ralph L]

I like the joke Romney has probably told a thousand times by now:
"I asked Ann, 'Honey, did you ever in your wildest dreams, think I'd be running for President one day?' 'Mitt, you were never in my wildest dreams.'"

[Jane]

McCain sounds petty to me.

[GMax]

HIT good get! Well that should give him bonus points. A two term R Governor with a strong conservative streak in a place that liked Wellman, Mondale and Humphrey. And he has been raising dough for Mac Attack. I think we may have found at least one of the finalists for the job, if 1100 delegates can be corralled.

[jimmyk]

Well, Romney was Governor from Jan 2003 to Jan 2007

Not only that, but (1) It seems rather unlikely that he's even much responsible for 2003 given that it takes time to make changes; (2) A lot of trends in state economies depend on things the governor has little control over in the short run.

The most a governor can do is to establish an economic environment in which growth can take place. The growth itself might take some time to appear.

[Jane]

And Huckabee is pettier still.

[centralcal]

John McCain has come across tonight as the empty suit. Even Ron Paul has substance to his answers. McCain, talks about his Viet Nam saga, who is and isn't supporting him, but he never has any substance to his answer, no matter what the question.

[Rick Ballard]

The Straight Crock Express veers all over the road in order to steer a question about economic issues back to his ability as a squadron commander.

Has the man ever cashed a check that wasn't issued by the US Treasury?

[MayBee]

Huh. I actually liked something Ron Paul said. It isn't up to the Pres to manage the economy. They are supposed to provide safe money and low taxes, and the people manage the economy.

Anyway, I think McCain sounds a little petty. The argument over the surge was stupid. But I do think McCain gets major props for supporting the surge. I think he really bought time for Bush and Petraeus with his loud support, in part because McCain had been willing to be so critical in the past.

[Jane]

Romney just lost the gays. Dumb move.

[centralcal]

The last question, and another empty answer from John McCain -- he was a foot soldier, yadda, yadda. Pathetic.

[Jane]

Boy Ahhhhnold looks awful.

[GMax]

I refuse to be depressed about this. As little as I would have ordained this likely outcome, I will say its real important to lock the Clintons away from the china, the pardons and the interns.

So cheer up! Read this from the most reliable pollster in the last couple cycles.

In a poll taken before his Florida victory, Rasmussen has McCain leading Hillary Clinton by eight points and Barack Obama by six.

Can you say blowout? I knew you could. Maybe some coattails to bring the House back to Republican control. Come on, it could be a heck of lot worse, remember the night and then the day after Iowa? Now that would have been a disaster.

[centralcal]

Ahhnuld has lost a lot of conservative, Republican support in California. He is mostly derided and laughed at. Hope he endorse John McCain as promised. He is no longer held in very high esteem in these parts and is considered more liberal Democrat than anything.

[Ann]

Arnold was sitting next to Nancy Reagan and it is now being reported that he is endorsing McCain tomorrow. What a coincidence!

[centralcal]

Gmax, I like you alot, but you are a dreamer. Those polls are about as accurate as astrology at this point in time.

[windansea]

Has the man ever cashed a check that wasn't issued by the US Treasury?

sure, from his wife.

[Jane]

Well I find it all a bit depressing. I never thought I would be actively rooting for Romney. And now he seems like the second coming to me in comparison to a man I donated heavily to in 2000.

[Ann]

Well, that was really nothing just like my vote in the primary.

Hit, I will be going after Ohio, first of course! :)

[JM Hanes]

Well, shoot. I should have known this crowd wouldn't abandon ship on a debate, no matter how pointless the exercise might become. Cross posting from the abandoned thread:

It doesn't matter what the question is, the answer you get from McCain is always the same.

Timetables for withdrawal are bad.
I lead a navy squadron.
I was a foot soldier for Reagan.
I'm your not-for-profit patriot.
If don't have to tell you what I think, you can go look at my endorsements.

He simply will not discuss policy. I don't think he can. With respect to our own Dear Leader, I'm pretty sick of questions about "leadership."

Oh yeah, and Romney is a flip flopper.

Whoa, where did that plane come from?

[Ann]

sure, from his wife. -windansea

Love it.

[Ralph L]

Has the man ever cashed a check that wasn't issued by the US Treasury?
Yeah, his in-laws' brewery. He officially worked for them for about a year, IIRC. I guess Cindy gets to cash the dividend checks.

[Jane]

It's Air force 1, retired JMH

[JM Hanes]

Oops, last but not least: I own the surge and Rumsfeld is the Devil.

[Jane]

Boy these CNN guys are in McCain's pocket it seems.

[narciso]

The Katrina/Rita compariaon is out of bonds, unless the cost of living increase is related to fuel prices. But then, why would it affect Massachussetts disproportionately. There has to be another
reason unique to Massachussetts; maybe Romney's health care mandate. Nah, the NEU researcher would never think that's the reason.

[Jane]

The Health care mandate didn't start until this month narciso.

[GMax]

Centralcal

Oh I am under no allusion that the public is fickle but remember this, most of these polls are biased against Republicans. Jay Cost did an exhaustive analysis back in early 2004. It shows a bias of 2%- 5% in most polls, understating true Republican support.

Note that 70% or more of the MSM stories being on Democrats at this point just like always, it very usual for the polling to show both generic democrats and actual Democrats polling up in head to head match ups.

This could be the race that cements the country's tilt toward Republicans, maybe by as simple as enough Blacks deciding they aint working on the Democrat plantation anymore.

If we get another fine justice like Roberts, I will live with the stupid green talk and some populist crap about Wall street being greedy. Talk is cheap and there are not enough politicians in powerful committees that toe this populist crap for it to ever become much in the way of legislation.

[Clarice]

Focus group--slams CNN and LAT for their questions--insipid and hostile to the Reps..

[Clarice]

No one thought McCain won and most thought he was too snipey.

[GMax]

I must say again, remember that sickening feeling on Iowa caucus night?

It could be far worse. If we can get either House or Senate in Republican control, he wont be able to just find stuff he agrees with Teddy about.

[centralcal]

JM Haynes: You have nailed it exactly! He has no answers of any substance to any question. Rather, he deflects to his war heroism, his lone, martyr-like support for the surge. That's it. That's all he's got. He is the emptiest of empty suits. Even Huckabee came across with much more substance that McCain.

McCain is a media phenomena - nothing more.

[JM Hanes]

Is it just me, or are the people who do t.v. makeup refusing to cross the writers' picket line? It's pretty funny when folks tan lines stop at the neck. Even when it doesn't, the color everybody seems to be sporting these days is like three shades off natural and blotchy to boot.

[windansea]

OT

JMH was that you who told me about restoring colonials in Merida?

anyway, I checked it out and looks like it would be fun. Prices are reasonable as well

Thanks!

[hit and run]

Looks like a job for the spelling gestapo...

JM Haynes

But turnabout is fair play, right centraical, er, centralcal.

[GMax]

Merida ? In the heart of the Yucatan? Chizenitza ( however its spell in Mayan!). Whats the play? I actually find the interior Yucatan to be a fascinating place.

[Ann]

If that is the best McCain can give (as a front runner) and he is against Hillary or Obama, in the general, he will come off as a silly, old, nasty, mean spirited, stupid, smirking, white republican; Just what the media wanted.

Clarice, what focus group are you referring to?

[Jane]

Clarice, where are you seeing a focus group?

[GMax]

In other news, more sense where none has been present before:

A federal judge on Wednesday threw out a key class action lawsuit against the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers that was based on the levee breach that caused much of the flooding of New Orleans.

The ruling relied on the Flood Control Act of 1928, which makes the federal government immune from being sued in connection with the failure of flood control projects.

A Clinton judge btw, so the filing must have been bordering on egregious.

[centralcal]

Spelling Gestapo - you got me! Adding letters! Sorry JMH (I will limit it to your initials from now on - grin)!

I happen to know someone with the first initial J. and the last name Haynes, so I just kinda do it by rote. I think I do it often here, so sorry, but, it may happen again!

[PaulL]

Yes, McCain's smirking was revolting, and I smirk myself.

I notice that McCain always smirks the most when he is caught. He never directly answered anything said against him. He always deflected.

[Jane]

Okay I must go to bed so I can be up bright and early to greet you all.

As always, it's been a pleasure.

[GMax]

And the march to climb on the bandwagon continues. The Terminator to endorse Mac Attack tomorrow. One thing about politicians they can tell when a strong breeze in blowing in.

[Porchlight]

Jane, I love seeing you here first thing in the morning. It was especially cheering during the Libby trial. Have a nice night. :)

[Clarice]

Jane--it was on Fox H & C. Sleep tight, and thanks again.

[GMax]

Where is other tom? This nugget from Rasmussen should put a smile on his face and lift that cloud a bit:

McCain does better than either Democrat with unaffiliated voters in the new survey, but especially when Clinton is his opponent. Against the former First Lady, he leads 52% to 31% with unaffiliateds.

[hit and run]

Ann:
If that is the best McCain can give (as a front runner) and he is against Hillary...

PaulL:
I notice that McCain always smirks the most when he is caught.

Presidential Debate
September 30, 2008
--Transcript--

Moderator: Welcome to the first Presidential debate of the 2008 election, I'm Skippy, your moderator. First with the introductions

Clinton: ::cackle::

McCain: ::smirk::

Moderator: First question to you Senator Clinton...

Clinton: ::cackle::

Moderator: Um, ok, and how would you respond Senator McCain?

McCain: My friends, ::smirk::

Clinton: ::CACKLE!::

McCain: ::SMIRK!!!::

Clinton: ::SMIRK!!!!!::

McCain: That's my line!!!!!!

[GMax]

You know in a perfect world we would find that Ronald Reagan was not dead and that a loophole existed for those returned from the dead and we could elect him again. Hell we would all be giddy.

But politics is about winning elections. To hell with moral victories. We need to hold the White House. We are a sneeze or two away from a very solid 5 to 6 vote majority on a Supreme Court that has been off the rails since the Warren Court years.

Dont let your eye be diverted from the prize. Frankly Bush has been more than a little disappointing in a lot of ways. But we did get Alito and Roberts from him and that made any shortcomings much more tolerable. We are poise to turn the judiciary in a whole new direction for many many years. This is really the biggest prize of all. And we get to kick a Bill Clinton in the groin while doing it! A two fer.

[vnjagvet]

I am depressed.

I love you guys, and I don't hate either Obama or Hillary! as much as I hated Skerry. My disdain for him got me into blogging, and precipitated a cardiac arrest event after the Kerry Lied rally in DC in September 2004.

But I really think the country will be in deep trouble if either Obama or Hillary! get elected.

What is someone like me to do?

Work like hell for Romney or support Mac.

From reading this thread, it is hard to be optimistic.

But then, GWB was in big trouble about this time in 2004, IIRC.

[Clarice]

Hit, that is wonderful!

[vnjagvet]

Gmax -- we cross posted. Thanks. I feel much better.

That is very good advice.

[Ann]

Michelle Malkin links to a website called "The Other McCain":

"Politicians are responsible for their own records -- the votes they make, the bills they sponsor, the statements they issue. It is McCain's record that is the problem, and not something that Malkin or Ingraham or Limbaugh said about McCain.

What seems to be going on here is an attempt to transfer responsibility, so that McCain is not responsible for his own words and deeds. It's like Hillary claiming that Bill's problems were due to a "vast right-wing conspiracy."

The Other McCain

Pretty much nails it for me.

[Ann]

Hit, that was so good I would advise you not to email it to Mark!

[centralcal]

Gmax, Vnjagvet: I wish I could share your enthusiasm and optimism. The only thing that separates Hillary and Obama and McCain is the war in Iraq. Very important, and I in no way wish to diminish it. But, in all other ways, there is really no difference.

People are who they are. Their personalilites are what they are. Obama may actually have more promise in that regard than Red Witch or Old Warrior.

Red Witch and Old Warrior both need to be reitred from the political scene and exit stage LEFT from whence they both came.

[Rick Ballard]

Vnjagvet,

I'm going to focus down ticket. If McCain can figure out some way to get me to believe him about judicial appointments, then I'll stop mentioning the Straight Crock Express. Romney is hanging it up and the only thing that might get McVain's attention is a voter strike in primaries from now on. That and an extra firm grip on the wallet.

GW raised over $350 million in '04 to defeat Kerry (much more than he needed). McCain will need more than that to break RW's broom. He ain't gonna get it until he makes very believable pledges on judges.

I doubt that he'll get it even then. He's raised $7 million in January to date. He needs to raise dough at a $40 million per month clip from here on out.

A focus down ticket may ease the pain if this turns into a train wreck.

[centralcal]

Ann, thank you for pointing me to the "other" McCain. He pretty much said it all for me in ways that I have been undable to articulate.

John McCain, you will never get my vote.

[centralcal]

And, Rick - he won't get those dollars you are talking about either. Not that I have them, but the people who do, haven't supported him to date, and probably don't intend to.