Obama, Clinton, And Farrakhan

Ann Althouse is excellent on the manner in which Hillary turned a near-win into a total loss on the topic of Louis Farrakhan.  I also thought Obama was a pure weasel, but everyone let him off the hook.  In what way was he a weasel?  Please - if John McCain tried to explain that although he had denounced David Duke many times there was no way he could stop Duke from supporting him if that was his choice, people would have burned the stage.  Yet with Obama it's all good.

ONCE BITTEN TWICE SHY:  IIRC, it was in Los Angeles (or vegas?) that Edwards, Clinton, and Obama were asked to name a personal weakness and Obama was dumb enough to do so (he was sometimes disorganized, he admitted; Edwards copped to sometimes caring too much and feeling too deeply, and Hillary 'fessed up that sometimes she got frustrated by injustice in the world, or some such.)

With that as background, I can see why Obama turned an invitation to admit a mistake into a denunciation of the Senate's cowardice on Terri Schiavo (and it is not as if Hillary can press this, since she voted the same way.)  But I agree with K-Lo - for me, not his target audience, it came off badly.

And in addition to coming off badly, it represents a notable re-writing of history, at least as told by the Times:

Senate Democrats were helpful as well. Some were reticent about opposing the Schiavo measure because of the highly charged emotions surrounding it. But Senator Tom Harkin, the Iowa Democrat who is an author of the Americans With Disabilities Act, pressed hard for the measure and helped to assuage the states' rights concerns of other Democrats, and the Senate Democratic leader, Harry Reid of Nevada, ultimately supported the bill as well.

Senate Dems guessed wrong about the politics and didn't want to buck Harkin, an arch-lib.  Fine.  But the Times, and other libs (including Ralph Nader), have had a hard time admitting that earnest libs were on both sides of the Schiavo issue.

And who offered this inflammatory analogy?

Frequently Unasked Questions - what if Terri Schiavo were black?

Are you kidding?  Would Dems be telling an angry black family that (a) states rights are paramount; (b) the Florida courts can be trusted; and (c) the medical community can be trusted to have the best interests of black people in mind?  Uh huh.

Well, she is not black.  Just asking.

That was a while ago.

Comments

[kim]

It's about time for the liberals to retake the Democratic Party from the progressives, but it doesn't seem right around the corner.
====================

[TexasToast]

Yet with Obama it's all good.

Frustrated? I feel your pain.
Reagan had the same gift.

[PeterUK]

Of course Obama was given a pass,America is at the height of an outbreak of Evangelical Derangement Syndrome.The Children's Crusade all over again.

[glasater]

As I posted on a previous thread, Obama's vote on Schiavo and his repudiation of that vote will come back to haunt him. Not that it will be material for some type of campaign ad necessarily but his comments were cold and calculated.

[Appalled Moderate]

PUK:

I think the Iraq invasion is a better simile for the Children's Crusade.

TM:

What the Farrakahn moment required was Hillary actually asking Obama a question -- "You don't reject Farrakahn's support, you reject some of his actions; isn't that correct?" It's not that Hillary does not have the requisite meanness for the question -- it's that she does not have the political instincts to apply it at the right time. A dramatic illustration of why she is losing.

Funny thing is -- that moment is likely lost to everyone (including McCain). An attack ad based on the subject is just going to look petty.

TT:

I don't know if I'd hail Obama as the new Reagan just yet. In '92 (and '95), Bill seemed to have precisely that talent. Look at him now -- the toxic finger wagging guy who just can't shut up. Time will tell. I do think Obama has the potential, though.

[Jane]

Reagan has a bit more substance to back up his 'gift"

[megapotamus]

Who did offer the alt-history there, you Tom? It is appalling and amazing to me the vitriol still pulsing in the Lefties over this event which went their way anyhow. Even now they cannot contain their contempt and venom for any dissenters from their collusion with Michael Schiavo to complete his attempted murder of his wife.

Appalled Moderate, somehow I don't think the Reagan comparison is meant positively above.

[Pofarmer]

Reagan has a bit more substance to back up his 'gift"

Not to mention ideas that actually, ya know, helped.

[Jane]

I guess that should be "had".

[Appalled Moderate]

Jane:

In 1980-1, many people thought Reagan was "an amiable dunce." It's really, with the release of his papers, his diaries and his hand-written radio commentaries, that it's become clear he was anything but.

There is a prejudice in this country that someone making a good speach is engaging in empty uplift. It's not the wisest of our prejudices.

[MayBee]

AM- Republicans seem to get called Amiable Dunces. Democrats are brilliant orators.
It was that way right through 2004, although McCain seems to be making a valiant attempt to break the cycle by not being particularly amiable.

[anduril]

Ann Althouse is excellent on the manner in which Hillary turned a near-win into a total loss on the topic of Louis Farrakhan. I also thought Obama was a pure weasel, but everyone let him off the hook. In what way was he a weasel? Please - if John McCain tried to explain that although he had denounced David Duke many times there was no way he could stop Duke from supporting him if that was his choice, people would have burned the stage.

TM is not alone:

Obama and the Farrakhan Trap

More than a few observers were taken aback by Obama’s not-so-deft sidestep. What if, the blogger Andrew Sullivan asked, it had been a question to John McCain about David Duke? And what if McCain had answered, “You know, I have been very clear in my denunciation of Dr. Duke’s racist comments. I think that they are unacceptable and reprehensible. I did not solicit this support. He expressed pride in a white man who seems to be bringing the country together. I obviously can’t censor him, but it is not support that I sought. And we’re not doing anything, I assure you, formally or informally, with Dr. Duke.”

And what if then, after the debate, McCain’s top campaign aide explained by saying, “The point is this: David Duke said kind things about [McCain]. From what I read, he didn’t say it was an endorsement, and I think Sen. McCain made clear what his position on Duke’s racist statements was."

[Appalled Moderate]

MayBee:

As a gneralization, I tend to agree on the GOP side. It's a little incredible, but back in the 50s, Ike was often depicted as being dumb (on the basis of his deliberately confusing answers at press conferences). Then, we have Ford, Reagan, Bush I and Bush II --all depicted as stoopid.

Dems are more a mixed bag than you make out -- nobody accused Carter, Gore, Mondale, Dukakis, or Kerry of committing oratory. (Al seems to do OK with powerpoint slides)

But there are exceptions to the generalizations. Nobody ever accused Nixon or Bob Dole of amiability.

[anduril]

On a very basic level, Mickey Kaus' point shows the way Russert gave Obama an easy out:

By babbling on about Jews and Israel--as if only Jews could be offended by Farrakhan--he gave Obama an easy answer that let him ignore Wright and the avoid the tricky business of distancing himself from his pastor. ("Tim, I have some of the strongest support from the Jewish community in my hometown of Chicago ..." etc.).

(Sorry, previously cited at): Obama's Wrang Wrang

But give Obama credit--some candidates might not have realized they were being offered a free pass and would have failed to capitalize on it.

[MayBee]

Yes, I concede. Although I do recall Kerry's oratory being praised. It could be that I simply recall his brilliance being praised-- I know it was some declared quality of his that utterly eluded me.

[Pofarmer]

There is a prejudice in this country that someone making a good speach is engaging in empty uplift. It's not the wisest of our prejudices.

Once again, it's not the quality of Obama's oratory I protest, it's his message.

[JM Hanes]

MayBee:

I think Kerry was admired for his ability to say nothing in much longer sentences than Bush.

[sbw]

Ouch! Well done, MayBee.

[Don]

Obama today:

"So John McCain may like to say he wants to follow Osama bin Laden to the gates of Hell," Obama said, "but so far all he's done is follow George Bush into a misguided war in Iraq that's cost us thousands of lives and billions of dollars."

Wow. It's been so long since I've heard the truth!

[cathyf]

Nobody ever accused Nixon or Bob Dole of amiability.

Bob Dole?!? The Senator from Kansas who ran for president in 1996? AM, for a long time I've been wondering if you have been putting us on; now I am almost convinced.

Bob Dole was clearly an amiable, cheerful politician with a sunny, self-deprecating midwestern sense of humor. That was the MSM's reason for assuming the inevitability of his loss in the election -- he was just a sunny midwesterner, as out of place in "sophisticated" blue-state salons as Arnold the Pig was in Lisa Douglas's Park Ave apartment.

[Jane]

There is a prejudice in this country that someone making a good speach is engaging in empty uplift. It's not the wisest of our prejudices.

AM,

I'm not confident that is what is going on here. But if I've missed some substance from Obama, feel free to point it out. I'm still a bit shocked that he didn't know al Qaeda is in Iraq.

And I do agree that you can be a great speaker and full of substance, and you can also be a bad speaker and wise beyond your years.

[anduril]

How many lives and dollars has it cost the other guys? Sending jihadis and equipment and maintaining them in Iraq isn't cheap--just ask the Saudis and Iranians. Nor is the cost of truth cheap.

[bgates]

I think the Iraq invasion is a better simile for the Children's Crusade.

In that your understanding of it turns out to be based on fiction?

[anduril]

Cool, bgates! I didn't know the modern take on that.

[Appalled Moderate]

Yes, the invasion does seem to have been based on the fiction that Saddam had WMDs...

(I know that's not what you said, but that's the danger of the use of vague pronouns, isn't it?)

[PeterUK]

"I think the Iraq invasion is a better simile for the Children's Crusade."

No.Many ended up as slaves ,dead from disease,starvation or abused.Try that with your Marine Corps.

[kim]

Au contraire, Bob Dole was the soul of amiability, except when his keen wit couldn't hold back the sharp knife.
================================

[kim]

You beat me to it, cf.
==============

[sbw]

Appalled Moderate, please be precise:

Yes, the invasion does seem to have been based on the fiction created and fostered by Saddam that Iraq had WMDs.

[kim]

I'm still angry that Bill Clinton sold a billion Chinese down the river to pre-empt Bob Dole.
=================================

[kim]

It is evermore clear, that Saddam hyped his WMD capability in order to keep the Persians at bay. It is also evermore clear that once the UN sanctions were lifted, he would re-arm.

And evermore, I like the idea of Bush lying us into a war we've won, and changed the Mideast.
================

[sbw]

I am appalled, Moderate, that you care so little for accuracy when your very future depends on it.

I'll not waste the bandwidth copying dialog here. Check out either CBS or the WSJ on the FBI interview with Saddam. Then begin your efforts to dissuade those who were as deluded as you were. After all, we want the next election to be based on an accurate understanding of the situation as it stood at the time decisions were made.

[clarice]

Actually, though he managed to keep it well-hidden when he ran for President, Bon Dole has a wonderful dry wit.
There's a media poll out today suggesting McCain will beat either of the two Dem candidates.
Well, that's no surprise to me. http://www.mercurynews.com/politics/ci_8378523?nclick_check=1>Presdient McCain

[Appalled Moderate]

sbw:

Brevity is the soul of wit. Caveats are the stuff of lawyers.

(Since this sounds rather kim - like...)
=============

[clarice]

**BoB Dole***PresIDEnt**

[PeterUK]

"But if I've missed some substance from Obama, feel free to point it out. I'm still a bit shocked that he didn't know al Qaeda is in Iraq."
He didn't seem to know a Somalia suit wasn't Kenyan national dress. A bit like Welshman dressing up as a Scot.

[kzin]

Juan McCain is an open-borders liberal, just like Jorge Bush. Clinton and Hussein Obama are socialists with a touch of marxism, islam and radical black afro-centric bullcrap thrown in for good measure.

The USA as a sovereign, independent nation is all but over. The era of world government is rapidly approaching. Today's young people are greatly in favor of such nonsense. Keep importing 3rd world "immigrants" (legal and illegal) and the transformation of the USA will be complete.

Turd world immigrants vote their own tribe. 'nuff said.

[PeterUK]

"Bon Dole has a wonderful dry wit."

Great band as well.

[bio mom]

Did I hear Obama say at the debate last night that he plans to go after the 527's ability to spend unlimited amounts of money to effect elections? I am pretty sure that he did. Funny that, considering yesterday we heard that George Soros, Moveon.org, Podesta's group (forgot its name), and the Service Employees Union along with John Edwards have united and will spend 20 million dollars on attack adds against John McCain. Shall we hear Senator Obama saying they should stop??

[Anon]

PeterUK-

Ya balls out. Yoik.

Jeebus Ann noticed that he parses his answers on Farrakhan like he answers his Chicago real estate questions.

If you know enough or care enough about a subject you'll know he does this.

If not look out-the media let's it float on by.

Anyoo-

There is this direct from Obama him speaking on a You Tube video-

Obama:"I will slow our development of future combat systems."

Ya-how exactly does that stack up with his concern for the troops in Afghanistan?

If you noticed the debate last night Hillary said that Obama is the CHAIR for a Subcommittee which has the direct authority to review Afghanistan-and Obama has not held meeting #1.

Ya , ya but they support the troops.

Just not with technology which is about the last advantage we've got.

It ain't friggin' large masses of troops-though they'se cheaper aren't they Democrats?

What's a few more soldiers killed when you can save money on "combat systems".

Oh and by the way according to Democrats the true evil the ones they are ready to go to war with-which you know in their world is-"talking tough"-the nouveau enemy is-

Canada.

[JM Hanes]

"There is a prejudice in this country that someone making a good speach is engaging in empty uplift. It's not the wisest of our prejudices."

"Our" prejudices? You wouldn't have to fend off criticism with such disingenuous formulations, if you didn't insist on extrapolating your point of view into sweeping generalizations about how other people think. I've often thought that the points you're making get lost in a pretty predictable reaction to things like being tagged with a putative "prejudice" for what is usually just an opinion you don't happen to share.

[PeterUK]

"Today's young people are greatly in favor of such nonsense. Keep importing 3rd world "immigrants" (legal and illegal) and the transformation of the USA will be complete."

Unfortunately for this equation,we are not emigrating to those countries from whence immigrants come .Those countries are remaining steadfastly monocultural

[PeterUK]

"There is a prejudice in this country that someone making a good speach is engaging in empty uplift. It's not the wisest of our prejudices."

Sell'm sunshine and ship'm shit.

[boris]

the points you're making get lost in a pretty predictable reaction to things like being tagged with a putative "prejudice" for what is usually just an opinion you don't happen to share.

Scolding the scold. Right on.

[Rick Ballard]

"If not look out-the media let's it float on by."

I think that's unfair. The media didn't let it "float on by". Instead they have very obviously alternated between taking an ostrich position and taking a three monkeys position. If the sleaziness of the deal can be found by simple googlefu using the Chicago City Government's public websites then I really must insist that the MSM in the US is being extraordinarily strenuous in its avoidance of the subject.

I doubt that Team Red Witch is going to be able to force the domestic MSM's hand by spoon feeding the Times of London.

[try hang gliding]

Btw, what's the over/under for when the divorce papers will be filed. If it's 6 mos from this Tuesday's primaries, I'll take the under.

[Enlightened]

Well, as far as the younger set goes - my son is 20, almost 21 and cannot stand Hillary's voice, and thinks Obama is scary. He likes McCain better because he thinks his military past is important due to the Iraq issue. But he did say at least Hillary would "bomb the shit out of "them" if she had to. So my husband and I were pleasantly surprised that a) he apparently has been following the elections b) he knows enough about the issues that would affect him c) he understands that at some point in time someone will have to "bomb the shit" out of someone - better us than they.

He was a little ticked off that he did not vote in the primary (he's never registered) because he really wants to vote in the election - but his main concern is Motocross at 11:00, saving for a new car that gets "hella" better gas mileage, and the NOPI girls on speed channel. All is well in his world.

[Anon]

Rick-

I was thinking the military angle-but ya-

They are doing something worse than letting it float on by...

There's an old republican campaigner that swears the MSM knows the internal polling, and are aiding and abetting...

[clarice]

very funny,PUK.Snappy retort,JMH.

[Anon]

Enlightened-

... he did say at least Hillary would "bomb the shit out of "them" if she had to.

Based on last night's performance; I think the "them" might be Canada.

[kzin]

Hussein Obama is a joke. A very weak resume, with very little experience, he was intially preferred by the Democrat brain-trust to run as a "sounding board", a hapless candidate to make Hillary look more moderate to the majority of Americans.

It backfired. Shrillary's ineptness came to fruition and BHO caught fire by speaking jibberish and fol-de-rol.

He has next to no experience plus he is a very, very left-liberal. His "policies" are nothing but left-wing, big government socialism.

[anduril]

Anon, imagine how easy it SHOULD be for the Republicans to take Obama's "military angle" and show how empty it is! That video--delivered with a straight face--almost sounds plausible until you ask: just what does this really mean, in the world as we know it?

[Enlightened]

Anon - Touche' - not sure my son got that tho - "them" is a pretty gray area for him methinks. He and I were watching the newson 9/11 and saw first hand the 2nd plane hitting the towers and everything that occurrred thereafter - he has never forgotten that sick feeling he had all day - and he associates "them" with that event. I think that is precisely why he is more tuned into McCain and what he hears from him, than these two other nitwits slapping each other with the stupid "healthcare/nafta/anti-war" sticks. I don't have the heart to tell him "they" are most likely already here - waiting for the green light.

[Anon]

anduril-

Oh ya-the media might wish for a do over.

There's a weird thing that could happen to the electoral map if Obama wins the Democratic nomination.

Go to Democratic poll junkie sites and they are worried about Massachusetts of all places.

I've got Republican poll junkie friends working the California exits and whispering about winning California.

Pennsylvania too for that matter...but they are looking for Ed Rendell's latest numbers.

Quinnipiac hasn't polled that for over a year now.

[Rick Ballard]

Anon,

It would be wholly unsurprising if they had the internal polling about 2 milliseconds after party leadership had it. I keep wondering who the genius was that suggested that Nurse Ratched's negatives would drop through higher exposure?

I still maintain that Maleficent the Maladroit would be more difficult to beat than the Mirror of Erised, even with her high negatives. BHO's utter vacuity won't hold up for eight months.

[Anon]

Enlightened-

That sounds like a good kid you got there.

[Appalled Moderate]

JMH:

I get shot at because I disagree with much of the general tenor of the comments here (not always) and I tend to shoot back when shot at. It's not because of "generalizations", because I see some fairly amazing ones on an ongoing basis. (The psychoanalyzing of Obama from no evidence going on through the threads is a little over the top. The generalization that Obama is not a patriot because he does not wear a flag pin is another.)

As for your subtantive point -- our last great speaker-politician was Reagan. Who was thought to be stupid. Before that, the great speaker was JFK. Who many now argue is an empty suit. FDR, a great orator, was famously said to have "A second-rate intellect but a first-rate personality". Of course, Lincoln was an idiot and a buffoon.

[Don]

Can we at leat agree that George Bush is a genuinely stupid chimp looking fellow with world's worst e-mail retention policy?

[sbw]

AM: Of course, Lincoln was an idiot and a buffoon.

Yeah, but Lincoln knew enough to oppose the 1864 Democratic platform when the copperheads didn't understand what they were fighting for and wanted to bring the troops home too soon.

[Anon]

I keep wondering who the genius was that suggested that Nurse Ratched's negatives would drop through higher exposure?

Some genius at the Dem party-hell the Union guys are trying to save them from themselves. They tried to signal to the DNC that they couldn't get their own guys on board.

With Obama the thing I worry about is he will change the dynamic so much that the Republicans won't know which way to run with the ball.

It's going to be way too interesting-more so than it needs to be.

[Enlightened]

"The generalization that Obama is not a patriot because he does not wear a flag pin is another"

I happen to think Obama is a marionette, the strings being pulled MO - who has publicly admitted she has had no pride in this country for quite some time. He might be a patriot (puppet), but only if Michelle says so.

[Enlightened]

pulled ***by*** MO

[Enlightened]

"Can we at leat agree that George Bush is a genuinely stupid chimp looking fellow with world's worst e-mail retention policy?"

After we agree your asshat adjustment failed miserably?

[Appalled Moderate]

sbw:

I see, by the way I handled the argument structure in my last comment, one could cnclude I thought Lincoln was an idiot and a buffoon. That's not what I meant -- I feel that Lincoln was considered an idiot and buffoon by many in the 1860s.

As for your argument -- well, it's not 1864 (thank God -- because if it were, my city would be on fire and my house would be in the middle of the Battle of Atlanta.)

[GMax]

I dont know if you have seen it but the LA Times ( I know a conservative rag ) has a poll out that shows McCain up on Obama in national polling and they polled more Democrats than Republicans.

My cruising of lots of websites yesterday trying to read up on Rezko, led me to read a lot of Democrat on Democrat violence. There is much acrimony between the two camps and unless it ends soon, I think it gets dramatically worse. The only way it ends soon is if Hillary withdraws.

Unless she get shellacked March 4th that aint happening. If she does she will decline any position as V/P and will issue a tepid endorsement for appearance sake and slink away to sulk. William Jeff will be plenty pissed and will work covertly to undermine Obama so that they can have a rematch in 4 years, at least that is what I think is likely.

And McCain should then win in a walk and maybe pull in a Republican house but the Senate will stay in Harry Reid's hands. Good thing Reid is incompetent as otherwise he could create some problems, but he has shown himself to be a buffoon so other than noise I dont see much from him.

[PeterUK]

""The generalization that Obama is not a patriot because he does not wear a flag pin is another"

That is just plain stupid,a bit like an agoraphobic buying a farm.

[Enlightened]

Hmmmm...per S/Light - Hill lost another superdelegate - John Lewis.

I don't like her. I know Rush is admonishing us to prop her up for another 8 months, yada yada...for the fun of it I guess....I just don't have that "destroy Hill at any cost" tingly feeling. I feel kind of empathetic towards the spectacle of it. She has very little integrity left. If it was me - I'd walk away and stay in my corner doing the good work and divorce that ball and cigar smoking-bubbachain.

[Patrick Tyson]

I don't see anything weird happening to the electoral map if Obama is the nominee. Most, if not all, of the states truly in play will be states the President won in 2004. If, for some reason, one or both of the campaigns and/or candidates suddenly altogether changes character then one or the other might win an easy victory, but nothing so far suggests that if it's one it'll be the Democratic one.

[boris]

because he does not wear a flag pin

Let's see ... Barak Hussain Obama hangs with domestic terrorist that bombed the pentagon and Barak Hussain Obama openly wants to bring the troops back home and take away their nasty weapons and Barak Hussain Obama refuses to pledge allegience or wear a flag pin so as not to offend those who are offended by such and are generally unproud of the country.

Where in there has anybody claimed anything about BHO's patriotism?

[Appalled Moderate]

boris:

What does "hussain" have to do with anything? And if it has nothing to do with anything, why do you feel to the need to repeat the full name three times?

[JM Hanes]

AM:

I think perhaps you don't realize how often the kinds of generalizations you make read like none too subtle barbs at your fellow posters as a group. I happened to agree with you on the flag pin, although I came late to thread, but as a case in point, you started out by trying prempt such a discussion by essentially deploring the mentality of those who apparently feel it might matter enough to bring it up. I think you often take a lot of extra hits for reasons that seem obvious to me but might not seem obvious to you -- although I believe I may have simply misinterpreted the tenor of the particular remark I was commenting on here.

Back on substance, I actually think that Reagan's speaking skills have been vastly inflated in retrospect. He sounds much better in soundbytes than he did at the time -- I remember mostly just hoping he could make it through a press conference without an embarassing gaffe. I thought he was less inspirational than he was effective in a keep-it-simple-stupid sort of way.

[PeterUK]

Boris,
BHO would be knackered at the Inauguration then.

[boris]

need to repeat the full name

Since it actually is his name (HussEin) you can only object to its use based on thought crime.

Unless you are a mind reader it's none of your business.

[PeterUK]

"What does "hussain" have to do with anything? And if it has nothing to do with anything, why do you feel to the need to repeat the full name three times?"

I totally agree - It should be Hussein.

[JM Hanes]

Rick:

"I keep wondering who the genius was that suggested that Nurse Ratched's negatives would drop through higher exposure?"

What I remember is Hillary saying that she had known negatives vs. Obama's unknown negatives which were bound to go up with exposure -- as, in fact, they have.

[boris]

Simple question ...

Questions of "patriotism" aside, does Barack Hussein Obama belong to the general group that finds symbolic pride in USA offensive, is unpround of USA in general, and wishes to disarm the military?

[JM Hanes]

AM:

I'm with you on this particular thought crime though, so if I've just compromised every point I've just made, well there ya go.

[Appalled Moderate]

JMH:

Well, in the case of this post, I was referring to us "as a country", which I thought was clear from the context. I did not necessarily mean posters on the thread, though some of the comments I was seeing inspired the comment.

There was one time when I used the term "dittoheads" to decribe people -- and that was not well-received. Though, since Rush Limbaugh uses it for his callers, I did not think people would take offense and another term for the concept I was trying to get across did not come to mind. That was a "my bad". I think you are recalling that incident.

As for the flag pin -- what I was trying to do (admittedly) was steer the argument away from symbolic displays to an underlying question that's fundamentally more interesting to me. (The flag pin thing is just one of those $%^ issues that inflames people, gives Chris Matthews and his guests an opportunity to do some long-distance spit swapping, and yilds the sort of thread that devolved from my comment)

I am serious, though, that much of the excitement comes from the fact that I often don't agree with the consensus that is evolving in threads, and I say so. I respect most of the posters here, and do try to treat serious people seriously. (If people want to take a political shot -- then I will sometimes shoot back. No personal animus is meant and I have never called anyone an idiot. The worst I've done is accuse PUK of drinking warm beer.)

[Enlightened]

Well, using Hussein as an adjective is probably a thought crime as well. Just sayin.

But - If the rumors are true (per Pastor Wright it would be "refreshing" to have someone who knows about Islam in the whitehouse) and Obama wins the election and thenceforth appoints any of his current staff members that belong to the Nation of Islam to his cabinet - it would lend some credence to the usage of his Muslim name. It's not a crime to wonder why he is so secrective about his Islamic ties - some people may be putting the carrot before the cart - but no one knows for sure.

Are some people using it to fear monger? Perhaps - it's called freedom of speech. Anyone that is offended by it can retort - freedom of speech. Everyone can be considered ignorant about it - since no one really knows for sure how deep his ties to Islam are.

[PeterUK]

"The flag pin thing is just one of those $%^ issues that inflames people,"

Which is why it was absolutely $%^ stupid of Obama to make it a sticking point.Anyone in public life who scorns the customs and mores of the people he depends on to elect him is stupid.

[boris]

Perhaps we should all avoid using the Bin between Osama and Laden to demonstrate our sensitivity to oppression and intolerance.

[Appalled Moderate]

PUK:

I see nary a flag pin on a person here in Atlanta. The politicians wear them, but the citizens don't.

In other words...it's not the customs and mores of the electorate. It's the poll-tested customs and mores of timid politicians.

[Enlightened]

Boris - I would support that arguement if it were true that Barack Obama has repeatedly used "Hussein" in his professional career, and then decided to stop using it when he began his political career. So I don't think he was pushing his "Husseinism" and it was only picked up in recent years by those that want to associate it to his Islamic ties.

I don't have a problem with delving into his alleged Islamic ties, but so far I don't see a sinister correlation and so I feel that using Hussein repeatedly is serving to inflame rather than inform.

[PeterUK]

"The worst I've done is accuse PUK of drinking warm beer."

Philistine.

[boris]

It's not that wearing the pin is part of the customs and mores of the electorate, it's there is a group that rejects those customs and mores who consider symbolic display distasteful. It's simply a way to show non-membership in that latter group.

[JM Hanes]

AM:

As long as you don't accuse hit&run of drinking warm beer -- even though I'd be willing to bet the farm he has -- you'll probably be OK.

[Jane]

like an agoraphobic buying a farm

PUK,

Geez, you make words dance! I hope you write books.

[boris]

serving to inflame rather than inform

Here's a clue. I do not include it to "inform".

I do not consider it inflamatory either. In fact any argument that it would be is what I find distasteful. A 2nd clue.

[PeterUK]

"I see nary a flag pin on a person here in Atlanta. The politicians wear them, but the citizens don't."

You really don't know anything about people or the importance of symbolism do you? Most people don't "wave the flag" except when occasion requires it,but they sure as hell expect their politicians to respect it. Even our socialist bien pensants understand that.

[Appalled Moderate]

So you include it to annoy?

[JM Hanes]

boris:

I thought asking folks to prove a negative was something you frowned on too.

[Enlightened]

This Slate article is dated in 2006 - when it looks like "Hussein: was first thrown out there. It's actually a political SOP...nothign new here - Obama's side was all huffy about it then - still a little sensitive about it...maybe he's got little 'nads - only MO knows for sure :o)...but this article kind of wraps it up neatly I think...
http://www.slate.com/id/2155434/pagenum/all/

[Appalled Moderate]

PUK:

I think we are just on different sides on this issue.

[boris]

To expand slightly ...

Suppose a moderate considers "Hussein" inflamatory precisely because said moderate is sure the word inflames some third group whose passions are to be feared and supressed at all costs.

I scoff. There is no third group whose passions are to be feared and supressed at all costs so that reasonable people should guard ther words carefully lest civilization fall asunder.

[PeterUK]

"So you include it to annoy?"

You're talking vertically downwards again Appalled.

[JM Hanes]

AM: I think it's one of those symbol things again, a kind of not-your-father's-fellow-traveler handshake.

[boris]

prove a negative

Well establishing non-membership is not the same as proving a negative. But ...

Let me adjust the claim to wearing a flag pin symbolically establishes membership in the group that is proud of USA and what it stands for. It prove's nothing either way, but if a person is accepted as sincere, BHO has that appearance, wearing would remove any doubt. Not wearing it may also be a sincere act.

[Patrick Tyson]

JMH—

As someone who appreciates a good speech regardless of its content, I thought Reagan was better in 1976 than he was in 1980 and better then than he was after the attempt on his life, but even in 1992, when he gave his valedictory, he was still a better public speaker than all of his contemporaries in the political sphere and a much better one than most of them. I never missed one of his speeches if I could help it even though in 1980 we parted company ideologically. I don't think I've listened to a full State of the Union since he left office.

[Enlightened]

Uh - What?

Using his middle name is a political ploy to alienate voter blocks. It's a tactic used by many a political party. In this instance it is being used as an adjective to Islamicize him. It's not being used to Christianize him that's for damn sure.

I don't have a problem with anyone using it repeatedly - use it a 1000 times if you want. That's your right under the Constitution.

I also don't have a problem with those that object to it - it is offensive to use it as an insinuation of sinister motives and/or background. But it's politics 101 in the US. I don't give two shits about it's PC-ness.

I'm just saying there are two sides to the coin - It may be true it has sinister implications, and it might have no implications. If Barack Obama does not want to use it he has no obligation to do so. And no one has the right to force him to use it.

[boris]

adjective to Islamicize him

Why? Barack Hussein Obama is not Islamicized by the middle name anymore than Osama Bin Laden is Islamicized by his.