Romney Out

That is Mission Accomplished for the Huck.  I thought I had posted this Slate excerpt earlier, but I can't find where I might have done that - the gist is, Baptists and Mormons are competing proselytizing religions that don't get along:

Most Americans know little about Mormonism, aside from rumors about the sacred undergarments some Mormons wear. But for the millions who attend Southern Baptist churches, this is hardly a new discussion. For nearly the past 40 years, the Southern Baptist Convention has devoted considerable effort to teaching its members about the dangers of Mormonism. In fact, probably no other organization in the nation has played a bigger role in perpetuating the idea that Mormonism is a cult than the Southern Baptist Convention.

...

In the early 1980s, Southern Baptist Convention leaders discovered—much to their horror—that 40 percent of Mormonism's 217,000 converts in 1980 came from Baptist backgrounds. More than 150 Mormon missionaries had descended on the northern Georgia area alone, a Southern Baptist magazine noted warily in 1982, and they found Southern Baptists among their most promising targets. When the Mormon Church built temples in the early '80s in Atlanta and Dallas, two of Southern Baptism's most important hubs, it was as if the Mormon Church had thrown down the gauntlet in an arms race between two of the most missionary-minded faiths. Mormonism was declaring its permanent presence in the American South, where Southern Baptism enjoyed status as the de facto religion.

And the SBC got serious about tempering the expansion of what was becoming the fastest-growing religion in the world. They developed programs, trained pastors, hosted Mormonism-awareness conferences, and published articles to help spread the message to Southern Baptists that Mormonism was a dangerous cult religion they had to avoid. The SBC's Sunday School Board developed an instruction kit, "The Christian Confronting the Cults," that covered five religious groups: the Mormon Church, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Worldwide Church of God, the Unification Church (the Moonies), and Christian Scientists. The book quickly became the Sunday School Board's top-selling item.

This from Salon is a bit more colorful:

"A vote for Romney is a vote for Satan," [televangelist] Keller declared in his daily e-mail devotional last May. His reasoning went like this: Romney's election would serve as a giant advertisement for a competing religion, Mormonism, which Keller and others believe has falsely portrayed itself as another form of Christianity in an effort to find converts. "He would influence people to seek out the Mormon faith," Keller predicted of a Romney presidency. "They would get sucked into those lies and they would eventually die and go to hell."

Though Keller's rhetoric is extreme and his predictions are controversial, his biblical reasoning is mainstream for many of the nation's Christian evangelicals, who make up about 40 percent of the Republican Party. Large denominations like the Southern Baptist Convention have long considered Mormonism to be a cult, not a true path to salvation. National polling paints a stark picture of the problem. According to a recent Pew Center poll, 25 percent of Republicans say they are reluctant to vote for a candidate who is Mormon. Among white evangelicals who attend church weekly, 41 percent are reluctant to vote for a Mormon.

I'm sure Huckabee would be delighted to be the nominee or even the VP but I suspect that throwing sand in Romney's gears was a big part of his mission.

Comments

[hrtshpdbox]

Oh, definitely! The reason that Mitt Romney can't win states, even after spending tons of money (some of it probably lobbed to the punditry, maybe we'll find out someday), isn't because he's a plastic man with flexible policy positions, it isn't because he runs negative campaigns and doesn't inspire voters - no, Mitt failed because big meany Mike Huckabee (who, in all other respects, is absolutely a marginal figure and unworthy of attention) orchestrated a religious war against him. Yepper.

[Brainster]

It's possible, but I would also point out that Mitt ran negative advertisements against Huckabee in Iowa, and the reaction from the radio hosts and some bloggers (Rick Moran and Stephen Green in particular) was to howl that Huckabee was completely unacceptable to them. And the CC crowd also noticed that the "acceptable" candidate was a Mormon, which, fair or not, was bound to get them riled up further.

[Brainster]

Err, that is, the reaction from the radio hosts and bloggers to Huckabee's win in Iowa.

[Hope Muntz]

All this is news to who, exactly? I doubt we'll see a Mormon president in my lifetime--but if we do, he/she will probably be running as a liberal Democrat.

Just as my daddy used to say that the first black man this nation elects will be a Republican. It's called the Disraeli principle--and in politics it rarely fails.

[Sue]

I asked and no one answered, but what exactly is a negative ad? And which of Romney's ads was considered negative?

I would much rather a candidate run the ad himself than go into a news conference and show the ad he considered running but dagnabbit, decided he just couldn't do it. And I would much rather view a negative ad the candidate ran himself than listen to someone say, oh, so casually, don't Mormons think Jesus and Satan are brothers? Not that a southern baptist would have ever heard that little phrase before or anything. And I would much rather watch a negative ad than hear another one of Hucky's one-liners. I am looking for a commander in chief, not a comedian in chief.

[JJ]

West Virginia? Mardi Gras? The fine points of the delegate vote thing in the primaries is where I got lost in civics class. (Second row was a cute blond.) Huckabee's individual voter influence appeared slight.

[Other Tom]

Ya know, them Marmots, a lot uvem go off on these missions before they go to BYU, so their football team averages about 24 years old and they're playing against actual college kids so it ain't fair. They should put a asterick by em.

[Rick Ballard]

The LDS was successful in picking off SBC members in the early '80's because a large number of those who converted had noticed that their pastors and leaders resembled the Peanut, a ""devout"" SBC member much the same as Bubba. The Huckster is at least in Presidential company as he panders forward.

Current LDS ethos and the praxis derived from it have been found admirable by many people. I'd never feel uncomfortable living next door to Mormons. I can't say the same about prog fantasists or dissemblers ignorant enough to focus wholly upon mythos.

Who knows what lunacy they might committ on any given day?

[Crunchy Frog]

If you were given a chance to get the hell out of Utah for two years (with a free ride waiting for you when you got back), wouldn't you take it?

[Brainster]

Sue, try this one on for size:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oWuCQ7g8m8

[Sue]

Brainster,

That is what is considered a negative ad? I thought it was funny. Was there untruth in it?

[Brainster]

A negative ad is when you say negative things about the other candidate. Quite often supporters of one candidate will think their guys ads are funny and true, while the ads of the other guy are nasty and false. Confirmation bias affects us all.

[Jane]

As I have said before, Huckster is a religious Bill Clinton. I'll vote McCain unless Huckster is on the ticket. I can honestly say I loathe him as much as I loathe the red witch.

[Sue]

I get it. A negative ad is like swiftboating. Telling the truth about a person running for office.

[Brainster]

The Swiftboat ads were certainly negative and true.

[hrtshpdbox]

"I can honestly say I loathe him as much as I loathe the red witch."
That's so weird, I was just talking to Huckabee, and he says he hates you too.

[GMax]

I thought the post was about Mitt resigning? Why all the huckabaloo? Wont he resign now that he can do nothing but run up debts that he may need years to raise enough contributions to repay?

[Sue]

Brainster,

So how would the population find out that the Huckster set the record for pardons in Arkansas?

Anyway, Romney's out and Huck is still in. Huck not running negative ads sure helped him. If only Romney had employed the tactics of Hucky. ::sigh:: Maybe next time around Romney will learn and call press conferences instead and show them what he thought about running but decided against.

[Jane]

That's so weird, I was just talking to Huckabee, and he says he hates you too.

hrtshpdbox,

Oh I'm sure he does. The difference between us is I don't veil my loathing in platitudes.

[cathyf]

When Candidate X runs an ad which says that you should vote for X because X has particular (positive) positions, history, characteristics, etc., this is a positive ad. When Candidate X runs an ad which says that you should vote for X because Y has particular (negative) positions, history, characteristics, etc., this is a negative ad.

On the one hand, if Candidate X only runs negative ads, the logical question is, "ok, fine, Candidate Y is bad -- but you haven't convinced me that you aren't worse!"

The usual implication on the negative-ad accusation is that the candidate running the negative ads is lying. But typically there is no proof given, and often the negative ads are well-known to be true. (Of course the negative-ad complaint a form of negative advertising itself, and to the extent that it includes an untrue accusation of dishonesty, a negative "ad" that is lying!) The other point is that it does rather beg the question -- why is it worse to lie about the other candidate(s) in a negative ad than it is to lie about yourself in a positive ad?

[clarice]

Very clever,cathy.

[AltaMike]

OT - please, enough of your anti-mormon bigotry. You're beginning to look like a fool.

[Rick Ballard]

Jane,

I wouldn't be concerned about the Huckster being picked. McCain is already a Baptopalian (undunked branch). He doesn't have any need for the Huckster and the Huckster wouldn't be much of a help in any swing state anyway. He has served his purpose and will wait for whatever bone is tossed his way.

[Sue]

Damn it. I had something come up and missed McCain's speech. I heard the very beginning and nothing much after. Anyone with impressions they want to share?

[Syl]

Another problem with negative ads is that even if they are true, they often are only half true because they are spun with no context.

Campaign spinning (or negative political spinning in general) is the same thing. 'There are 47 million Americans without health insurance.' True but misleading.

Anyone as sophisticated as some here believe themselves to be shouldn't be taking negative ads at face value.

[MayBee]

He was charming, Sue.
Michael Steele said he hit it out of the park.

[Other Tom]

Hey--go, you Cougars! Go, you Utes! (And we're not talking here about the two defendants in My Cousin Vinnie.)

[Jane]

I actually thought it was a good speech Sue. I listened but did not watch. I thought he was humble and truthful and I love Tom Coburn so I was in a good mood when it started.

Rick,

Boy I hope you are right. I'll listen for the backlash from the Baptist Bill Clinton when he announces his pick.

[Rick Ballard]

Jane,

I think Steele has a pretty good chance. I might be too optimistic but he would carry at least a little weight on the battleground. The Huckster is a feather in comparison. The states where he is most popular are pretty red to begin with and "holding Arkansas" isn't on the Top Ten to do list at the moment. If it makes it to that list it's over anyway.

[sylvia]

Besides his Mormonism, I think Romney had alienated a powerful bunch, the gay lobby in the North East. His stance against gay marriage got the liberal media elite against him and they probably help paint a perhaps skewed picture of him across the country. Just like people I talked to not in NYC who got the impression that Rudy was hated in NYC in his time because the NYT was against him, many people got the impression that Romney was hated in Mass because Ted Kennedy didn't like him. Nicknames such as "Mitler" didn't help either.

So I think it may be sometimes very difficult for an acting true conservative from a liberal state to win nationally because of all the liberal rancor he brings from the past that gets picked up again. Especially now that the culture wars are so fierce.

[Syl]

The difference between us is I don't veil my loathing in platitudes.

Oh there are many more differences than that, I assure you.

[Syl]

Tom

I'm sure Huckabee would be delighted to be the nominee or even the VP but I suspect that throwing sand in Romney's gears was a big part of his mission.

McCain didn't care much for Romney either. Why don't we add anti-mormonism to the list of things many of you hate McCain for.

There seems to be a lot of hate going around and I guess it's only natural to attribute the same hatred to others.

Could be, but then again we.do.not.know.

Seems to me accusing Huck of screwing things up because he's anti-mormon is just looking for a scapegoat.

[GMax]

Well Rand Simberg thinks Romney bowed out now partially as a thumb in the eye to Huck. He basically took away any incentive that McCain might otherwise have had to think about Huck as a V/P. Funny that both tried to screw the other and ended up both screwed and McCain laughing at them.

[Brainster]

Sue, when did I say there's anything wrong with running negative ads? It's part of politics, but don't expect the other candidate to then not want to "throw a little sand in your gears". That is my point. I am not saying how horrible Mitt was or how noble Mike Huckabee was, just explaining why the anti-Mormon meme is not the only thing going on here.

[syn]

I would have thoguht the powerful gay lobby in the North East would have been ardent Guiliani supporters after having extended his hand in friendship for so many years as mayor.

OF course, here in NYC Guiliani was deemed the Hilter before the next Hilter came along so loyality and friendship mean very little in the Big Apple.

[Jane]

What the conservative gays are looking for is someone who won't actively work against them. Bush has been the most gay friendly president we've had. He was anti gay marriage but did nothing stop it, unlike Clinton who passed DOMA. Rational gay people accept that it is as much someone's 'right' to oppose gay marriage as it is to support it. Romney actively opposed gays altho I think it was an attempt to obtain some conservative cred not because he meant it, but I'm projecting because I can't know.

Conservative gays aren't looking for an advocate, they are looking for someone who is conservative.

[bgates]

>>The difference between us is I don't veil my loathing in platitudes.

Oh there are many more differences than that, I assure you.

Syl, we could list all the differences between Jane and Huck, but we'd just end up with another anti-Huckabee negative ad.

[Other Tom]

Doesn't it seem that if Obama is the Dem, Steele adds nothing to McCain's ticket? But if it's Hillary, he could be the deal-closer. (And he's always seemed like a pretty fine guy to me.)

The Dems go first, convention-wise (don't they?). No matter how their POTUS and VP picks come out, and even though it is certain that McCain is no rocket scientist, I don't believe he's dumb enough to pick Huckabee.

How about Huckabee for something like UN Ambassador? I think that would be quite a laff riot, in addition to a magnificent insult to those useless parasites. Huck could go up there and tell a bunch of jokes and handle some snakes for them.

[JM Hanes]

"Why don't we add anti-mormonism to the list of things many of you hate McCain for."

Probably because McCain hasn't been going around saying things like "Don't Mormon believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?'' in the New York Times.

I happen to think Huckabee is a smart guy, which is why I believe he knew exactly what he was doing.

"There seems to be a lot of hate going around and I guess it's only natural to attribute the same hatred to others."

The intensity of people's comments has a lot to do with how important they think this election is, but lately, I'd have to say that you seem to be one of the angriest folks here.

[Jane]

I happen to think Huckabee is a smart guy, which is why I believe he knew exactly what he was doing.

I couldn't agree more. It's all that passive-aggressiveness. Everytime he opens his mouth he talks about how "civil" he is - right before he slams Romney in the most uncivil way. I tell ya, he's got the Clinton genes.

[Syl]

I'd have to say that you seem to be one of the angriest folks here.

I react angrily to contempt. I'm not the one loathing people I disagree with. Neither are you.

[sylvia]

"I would have thoguht the powerful gay lobby in the North East would have been ardent Guiliani supporters"

Well I think Giuliani didn't alienate gays but he alientated plenty other libs with welfare reform and the crackdown on the window washers etc.

I agree with Sue and Jane that Huck was the one who was the most fake. He talked about being nice and then always slammed Romney whenever he could, he talked about people picking on his religion too much by always asking him the religious questions in the debates, but he sneakily picked on Romney's religion by casually mentioning how Satan and Jesus were supposed to be brothers in Mormomism. He complained about negative ads and then produced a negative ad, but "only showed it to the press". He snuck in a religious ad, but didn't have the guts to call it a religious ad, and said that obvious cross was a mere accidental reflection of light and was only a bookcase. Although I liked Huck's verbal skills, when it came to being phony, when you think about it, I think he had Romney beat.

[JM Hanes]

Syl:

Ironically, I started taking a closer look at Romney because the contempt with which he was treated by other candidates -- including Huckabee -- and a lot of media pundits struck me as both objectionable and unfounded. I'm afraid, however, that I would have to admit to a certain de facto loathing of McCain which I'm now working hard to put aside.

When it comes to Huckabee, however, I just don't think the intense reaction generally derives from religious bigotry. That's not to say that such bigotry doesn't exist, but it's worth pointing out that religious and social conservatives have certainly enjoyed a pretty congenial home in the Republican coalition! Social moderates like Giuliani, with whom I happen to agree, have paid social & religious conservatives in the party a lot more respect than most of those conservatives have ever offered in return.

The problem with Huckabee is not his religion per se, it's that he deliberately and systematically put religion on the table in this campaign. He got the bulk of the religious questions in the debates because he was the one touting Christian credentials on the campaign trail and relying almost exclusively on religious organizations to get out his vote. That's a big part of how he has gotten this far on so little money.

The old adage about not mixing religion and politics was never limited to constitutional issues of church and state. It is always a potentially explosive brew, and frankly, I think Huckabee both invites and welcomes the controversy. You may disagree, but if you, yourself, react angrily to contempt, why is it so hard to contemplate the possibility that others, like me, might have an equally powerful reaction to a candidate proffering soundbytes like the question I quoted above? I found it shocking at almost every conceivable level, and, unfortunately, emblematic of his campaign. He volunteered a question with a known history as a smear and then parlayed his disclaimers and apologies into a weeklong bonanza of free publicity in every venue. That too is a tactical part of running on empty, moneywise, but you ultimately pay for it in credibility.

If a great many people prove unwilling to ignore the religious component of Huckbee's campaign in order to judge him solely on his political ideology, I think the blame for that properly lies with Huckabee, not the voters whose reactions happen to differ from your own. I'll defend almost any religious group as a legitimate political constituency, but when remarkable numbers of evangelicals are clearly attracted by Huckabee's religious positioning, why should anyone else be obliged to discount it?

[Syl]

JMH

I'm not discounting the religious component at all. That's who he is. And I have never ever even hinted that that should be discounted. But laying the entirety of his animosity towards Romney on anti-mormonism is a bridge too far for me. Romney was attacking him and McCain and it's only natural to fight back.

That conservatives came lately to romney is nobody's fault but their own.

[Jane]

Actually if I recall correctly, Huckster started it in an attempt to get noticed in Iowa. And in Iowa where there is a huge evangelical population anti-mormonism worked just fine. I thought it was ugly. I don't recall Mitt ever trying to sucker punch Huckster with religion.

[clarice]

JMH, Your last post was so brilliant and well-written it takes my breath away.
Honestly.
He is a populist at heart, and like all populists is a demagogue. I never saw a first rate populist who wasn't. When I close my eyes to listen to them, I see mobs gathering behind them to attack the nearest bogeyman.

[MayBee]

I got turned off by Huckabee's advisor Ed Rollins on Hardball back before Iowa. Chris Matthews tried to get him to say that for the purpose of politics, the difference in Mitt and Huckabee's religion didn't matter.
Ed Rollins would only say that was up to the voters to decide.
Early on, Huckabee was definitely playing the anti-Mormon angle.
I don't think he is now, but it was pretty sad when he his campaign did it.

[sophy]

I do not know how to use the flyff gold ; my friend tells me how to use.