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March 25, 2008

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Huggy

Seems to be a problem with white preachers too. I know one that angers his brothers by preaching made-up stories of his families depravity and his personal redemption. Must come from living off donations.

Syl

I have a simple question(s):

How much is Barack's loyalty to the Church and to Wright influenced by Michelle? Didn't he meet her there?

As the mother of their children it was also her decision to keep the children in the church.

Is Barack protecting Michelle here? Why has she been muzzled? Why isn't the press the least bit curious?

Sue

Syl,

He met Michelle at work. He met Rev. Wright in 1985, started attending the church shortly thereafter, became a member in 1988 and met Michelle in 1989. He brought her to the church but I doubt she minded. It fits her rhetoric.

sylvia

Yes I agree that Michelle might have a lot to do with this. However, I think a lot of it has to do with Obama being mixed race, and I theorize that he was not entirely happy with his family upbringing in his white family, hence all the telegraphing of the comments by his grandparents, that if you read between the lines, he is subtley telling us that he perceived them as racist. He didn't seem to be too happy with his white environment growing up, so he decided to join the black community as an adult instead. And you know what they say about the recently converted. So he has to prove he is more black than the other blacks, by joining the most "black" church in town.

So I think a lot of people, black and white, misunderstood him before. White people assumed that because he was half white, he would be above race politics and would pursue a comfortable middle class centrist agenda, not an activist urban agenda. Blacks used to assume he was not black enough for them, being raised by a white family. Now that we are getting to know him some more, we see that the opposite is true. That got him a lot more black support as they warmed up to him, but that got him a lot less white support from whites who are afraid of upsetting the existing balance. But at least now people are getting enough information to make an informed choice.

Jane

Sylvia,

Read Thomas Sowell today. He pretty much nails it, IMO.

(link under my name)

clarice

Neither he nor Wright experienced deprivation nor apparently any if much real discrimination..it's a gig, folks, one that has provided both of them with substantial financial and political benefits.

ROA

If he was so concerned for Blacks who grew up in poverty, why did he oppose the nomination of Janice Rogers Brown, a sharecroppers daughter, to be a to be United States Circuit Judge for the District of Columbia Circuit?

Sue

What do you want to bet Thomas Sowell had both parents raising him?

Forbes

Were there "welfare policies" in the '40s and '50s, when Jeremiah Wright was growing up, that worsened?

Was there an eroding black family in the '40s and '50s when Jeremiah Wright was growing up?

That and the rest strikes me as revisionist history on the part of Obama--though I must admit, I did not grow up in Philadelphia in the '40s and '50s.

Though I can relate a story I learned in the '60s, from friends of my parents who brought their children back to their hometown to show them where they had grown up in the '40s. Their children commented that they hadn't realized their parents had grown up in an inner-city ghetto--which, of course, their parents had not. Times and places change--not always for the better.

john

"And segregation (as other have noted) was hardly "the law of the land" other than in a few unreconstructed Southern states."

Little Rock, 1957.
Boston, mid-1970s.

Actually if you wanted a 20 year head start on desegregation, the south was the place to be.

PrestoPundit

Housing restrictions were in force into the 1960s in many parts of the country. And racially segregated golf courses were widely common in many parts of the country. And so on. So white people of 50 years ago living outside of the South aren't off the hook so easily.

PMII

MONEY!

clarice

Careful Kemosabe--Those same restrictions applied to me, and I am not claiming the government is trying to kill me or that people owe me reparations.

Jane

Last week I read more on Wright's upbringing. He went to an all black college for 2 years (one can assume that wasn't the butt of discrimination) then left and went into the marines, was trained as some sort of medic, came back finished college and got 2 graduate degrees from the University of Chicago.

What would be interesting to find out is when and where he was indoctrinated into black liberal theocracy. I bet we would see a whole host of changes at that point.

Patrick R. Sullivan
What do you want to bet Thomas Sowell had both parents raising him?

You would lose your bet. Sometimes he had no parents raising him, and lived with an older married sister. He's also a high school dropout...as well as a U of Chicago Phd.

Patrick R. Sullivan
What do you want to bet Thomas Sowell had both parents raising him?

You would lose your bet. Sometimes he had no parents raising him, and lived with an older married sister. He's also a high school dropout...as well as a U of Chicago Phd.

Syl

Why didn't Hillary go on vacation too so she wouldn't have to attend her regular church on Easter Sunday?

Sara

A powerful piece of writing:

Open Letter to Senator Obama

Sara

Fox just announced that Rev. Wright has canceled 3 speaking engagements at a Baptist church in Florida, citing security issues. The report said the church parking lot was a sea of satellite trucks.

Sara

Via Atlas Shrugs:

Lee Rodgers is a morning talk show host on KSFO, a radio station in the San Francisco Bay Area. His wife is from the U.S. Virgin Islands, still has family ties in that small community, and is hooked into what the locals are saying. Lee reported this morning (March 25) that:

* the Obama family is staying at the home of a man who is reputed by his neighbors to be radical hard-line black nationalist.

* Reverend Wright was nearby, vacationing during Easter in an ocean view room at the Ritz Carlton (where rates start for an ocean-view room during the holidays around range between $989-1750 per night)

??? Michelle Obama is not building herself a reputation for friendliness among the locals. It's a small island where everybody knows everybody, and people are not impressed by her people skills.

Lee also mentioned that grandma is in poor health, living in a condo in Hawaii. Rather than taking the family there for the holiday to see her (and apologize for making her a poster-child for "typical bred-in white racism" and equating her with their foaming at the mouth racist preacher,) they chose to vacation on "Billionaires Row" in the V.I.

Sweetie

I'm curious about the church membership. From the video I've seen it seems to be a slice of the Black middle class. Or a mix of middle and upper class. Aren't these the people helped the most by our government's response to past racism: affirmative action and government contracting preferences (racial set asides)? And these are the folks railing against 'whitey'?

I wonder, though, if these churches are just moderating the guilt that these folks have - the basic liberal guilt: what did I do to deserve this? Because they surely see in their own lives and their neighbors some level of success, I don't see how they could be buying what Wright is selling.

GMax

OT

Over at TalkLeft the lefties are getting on the other lefties nerves. Jeralyn has up a post with new rules, and she names names and counts total posting and has set a strict new posting limit of 10 per day for about 5 individuals. At least one had in excess of 50 posts yesterday, "monopolizing" the conversation per the proprietor. Want to bet all of them are Obamatrons?

GMax

Rasmussen update:

If Obama wins the Democratic nomination, just 55% of Clinton voters say they are even somewhat likely to vote for him against John McCain. That’s down two points from 57%.

If Clinton is the nominee, just 55% of Obama voters say they are at least somewhat likely to vote for her against McCain. That’s down nine points from 64%.

Its working just like Rove planned!

Sue

Why doesn't the person doing the interview ask the obvious follow-up question? If Rev. Wright's words were taken out of context, what exactly was the context in which they were spoken? No one is asking when the person says his words were taken out of context. It is so frustrating.

TexasToast

And segregation (as other have noted) was hardly "the law of the land" other than in a few unreconstructed Southern states.

A bit of historical revisionism, perhaps?


“So far, then, as a conflict with the Fourteenth Amendment is concerned, the case reduces itself to the question whether the statute of Louisiana is a reasonable regulation, and, with respect to this, there must necessarily be a large discretion on the part of the legislature. In determining the question of reasonableness, it is at liberty to act with reference to the established usages, customs, and traditions of the people, and with a view to the promotion of their comfort and the preservation of the public peace and good order. Gauged by this standard, we cannot say that a law which authorizes or even requires the separation of the two races in public conveyances [p551] is unreasonable, or more obnoxious to the Fourteenth Amendment than the acts of Congress requiring separate schools for colored children in the District of Columbia, the constitutionality of which does not seem to have been questioned, or the corresponding acts of state legislatures.

We consider the underlying fallacy of the plaintiff's argument to consist in the assumption that the enforced separation of the two races stamps the colored race with a badge of inferiority. If this be so, it is not by reason of anything found in the act, but solely because the colored race chooses to put that construction upon it. The argument necessarily assumes that if, as has been more than once the case and is not unlikely to be so again, the colored race should become the dominant power in the state legislature, and should enact a law in precisely similar terms, it would thereby relegate the white race to an inferior position. We imagine that the white race, at least, would not acquiesce in this assumption. The argument also assumes that social prejudices may be overcome by legislation, and that equal rights cannot be secured to the negro except by an enforced commingling of the two races. We cannot accept this proposition. If the two races are to meet upon terms of social equality, it must be the result of natural affinities, a mutual appreciation of each other's merits, and a voluntary consent of individuals.”

…..
Plessy v. Ferguson, 163 U.S. 537 (1896)

Jane

Sue,

You can watch videos of the whole sermon on You Tube. I know of at least one Obamamaniac who said after seeing the whole thing he was mad at Obama for not defending Wright. I couldn't see it because You Tube only works once a day for me and I had used up my fill.

If you need a link I can probably find it.

clarice

It's hard to imagine in what context accusing the govt of inventing AIDs to destroy Black men and importing in drugs to allow them to be jailed would be rational or acceptable .

But--heck--maybe I'm just picky......

Other Tom

"A bit of historical revisionism, perhaps?"

Yes, by Barack Obama. Plessy v. Feruson was expressly overruled in Brown v. Board of Education (1954). Segregation in Philadelphia, where Jeremiah Wright grew up, was a thing of the distant past by that time. He lived in fashionable, mostly-white Germantown, and attended a largely-white public school.

But in any event, so what? If the Klan was influential when David Duke was growing up, does that "context" excuse his venom? And I guess we should all reconsider poor Bull Connor, given the context.

Other Tom

Interesting data from Rasmussen. In those head-to-head McCain v. Clinton polls, I'd like to see the question posed as "which of the two would you vote for, if Obama led in the popular vote and pledged delegates but Clinton was nominated by the superdelegates?"

davod

So Obama, his wife, and his pastor all came from non-deprived backgrounds.

Forget about Wright. A reporter needs to ask Obama why he stayed at a church which preaches Africa and African Americans first, and denies its adherants the benefits of the middle-class.

anduril

And he drives a Porsche. Come the revolution who gets that?

Sara

Despite TT's attempts to tar everyone with the racist/segregationist's brush, Plessy didn't change anything where I lived. There was no segregation in Pennsylvania, except by economic forces. You lived where you could afford to live and that's where your kids went to school. I went to camp every Summer from the late 40s thru the mid '60s in the upper end of the Blue Ridge in Western PA and not only were some of the counselors African-American, so were many of the campers. The 4-person cabins were assigned at random, so they were often quite diverse. In fact, the woman who worked for my family as a full time housekeeper, was the assistant camp director. My Mother got her the job, since her services weren't needed while I was away at camp and she didn't want her going without a paycheck. She was a very dark-skinned black woman with one of the most beautiful voices I've ever heard.

I never saw segregation at work until a family vacation down South when I was about 12.

jt007

It isn't surprising that Wright has such angry, anti-white attitudes even though he had a privileged back ground growing up. The angriest african-americans I have ever met are generally those who received good educations and live upper middle class lives. Twenty years ago I lived in the Washington-Baltimore area. At that time, the Balt.-Wash. corridor had the largest population of middle and upper middle class, college educated african-americans in the country. There were (and still are) whole suburbs with big, beautiful homes owned by wealthy black professionals and I encountered more angry black people from that socio-economic stratum than from any other. Michelle Obama fits that profile to a T. She has a great education, makes great money yet she's really angry.

This is seemingly contradictory but it kind of makes sense. I remember learning in European history that the French Revolution was precipitated by the growth of the Bourgeoisie. Only when a critical mass of people gained a better standard of living did they become so discontent with the aristocracy that they took action to destroy it. And, no, I am not saying that people like Michelle Obama want to destroy the country. Perhaps reaching the upper rungs of this country's socio-economic ladder and not feeling (correctly or incorrectly) that you truly belong or are welcomed there makes people feel angry. It would make sense if you believe that you and your family have worked hard to get ahead and, thereby, have earned your station in our society yet you still feel alienated.

Sara

jt007, Prince Georges County and Baltimore City were/are almost solid black counties, yet when Alan Keyes ran for Senate back in '88, and yes he was a terrible candidate, he garnered the majority of votes in all Maryland counties except PG and Balt. counties, where he got slaughtered in the vote. He lost because they are such huge voting blocks, you really couldn't win Maryland without them.

Sara

**should read PG and Baltimore City, not counties

Garth

actually it makes perfect sense that well-educated blacks would be among those who are the most angry.

with eduction comes a better sense of history and an understanding of how the mainly white, corporate powers and government, have tolerated, exploited, promoted and ignored racism.

i lived in philly and there is no question there is STILL a lot of racist attitudes. probably because there are plenty of poor whites and poor blacks scrapping for the dwindling number of good blue collar jobs.

growing up in a working class catholic neighborhood virtually everyone i knew grew up hating niggers and jews and this was in the 70s and 80s.

i didn't get it from my parents, but it was as undeniable as the air we breathed.

if i had grown up black and educated in philly, i would probably have a bigger chip on my shoulder than wright.

the attitudes on this site are disgustingly smug.

Ranger

Well, my take is based on my experience in Bosnia, where I dubbed this kind of talk "Keep the hatred alive" in my mind. There it was the intense efforts on all three paries (Serbs, Croats, and Muslims) to make sure everyone remembered the horror of the war every day. If people concentrated on present improvements and a brighter future, they might reject those leaders who had taken them to war, and so the war had to be driven home at absolutely every occasion.

That's why I personally had such a strong negative reaction to Rev. Wright's talk. It is of the same thing. He wants to keep the hatred alive or else the community might actually abandon the leadership that has brought them to where they are. That is why it is particularly targeted at middle class and upper-middle class listeners, those most likely to lose sight of the struggle if they start looking at an improving present and a better future. Of course any "typical white person" that is willing to confess the rasicist nature of the system and support the maintenance of the hate is welcome too.

sylvia

Well since we are talking abou race and segregation, one fyi that I think loosely relates to this is I was looking up some articles on African American slave life recently. I wanted to know more about what slave life was like in day to day matters. But I didn't see much on it, yet. I saw a lot of articles on history such as the Civil War, Jim Crow laws, but nothing more personal. I wonder why that is. Was that information not recorded as it should have been?

boris

All the big name terrorists are well educated from wealthy families.

Ranger

if i had grown up black and educated in philly, i would probably have a bigger chip on my shoulder than wright.

Posted by: Garth | March 25, 2008 at 06:27 PM

I would agree with you if Rev. Write were a social scientist doing History or Sociology or some such. But I thought part of being a Christian was learning to love thine enemy and turn the other cheek. If Rev. Wright is still this angry, one as to ask if he ever picked up those lessons in divinity school getting those advanced degrees.

Other Tom

"...a better sense of history and an understanding of how the mainly white, corporate powers and government, have tolerated, exploited, promoted and ignored racism."

First, the comments to which we were responding were those suggesting that, in light of Plessy, segregation was prevalent throughout the land. It simply wasn't. No one is disputing that there was and is racism--black, white and otherwise--but that's a different matter.

If blacks (and others) were truly and properly educated, they would also develop an understanding of how an entirely white government and army undertook catastrophic sacrifices to end slavery, and how the entirely white British Royal Navy, on the orders of an entirely white government, selflessy undertook on its own to end the African slave trade.

Anyone who actually believes that the US government since at least 1964 has "tolerated, exploited, promoted and ignored" racism simply cannot said to be well-educated. And anyone who says that the US government developed HIV to inflict it upon the black population is a hate-filled nutball, and I'm growing sick of hearing about whatever the hell background might be said to justify such bullshit.

On the original subject, I attended a fully-integrated public school in Newport, RI in 1950-51.

Other Tom

"if i had grown up black and educated in philly, i would probably have a bigger chip on my shoulder than wright."

Funny, one hell of a lot of people actually did grow up black and educated in Philly, but there are damn few with as big a chip on their shoulder as this vile screwball.

Cecil Turner

the attitudes on this site are disgustingly smug.

Whatever. I don't have time for idiots that preach hate, whether they do it from the pulpit or no. That goes for the David Dukes of the world and just as much for the Reverend Wrights. Perceived slights from decades (or centuries) past are no excuse. Still a lot of racism? Gee, I wonder if that sort of thing has any impact . . . because if so, it sure ain't positive.

GMax

Hmmm Bill Cosby, Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, Condi Rice, etc etc. I wonder why they dont have a big chip on their shoulder?

Since when is it acceptable by the way to respond to racism with racism, btw? A chip on a shoulder is a euphemism for blatant racism. Pure and simple.

Sara

Wow, GARTH, things were sure different on the other side of the state, where I grew up. We didn't see anything like you describe, nor do I think it would have been tolerated, especially as late as the 70s and 80s. Maybe your experience explains why people like Chris Matthews are so fixated.

hit and run

i lived in philly and there is no question there is STILL a lot of racist attitudes.

You and Gov. Rendell...who wants to push that argument give Dems and super delegates a reason to vote for Hillary.

boris

If Garth grew up in the 70s and 80s hating blacks and jews but didn't get it from parents and one doubts it's preached at Catholic Mass then the supercilious little troll must have been a hate sponge. Nothing can be done about those pathetic fools but at least we should discourage actually preaching hate from a pulpit.

Jane

He wants to keep the hatred alive or else the community might actually abandon the leadership that has brought them to where they are.

Ranger,

Wow - that makes sense in a really sick sort of way. I guess you have two choices in this country: you can be thrilled to grow up in the land of opportunity, or you can bitch that enough isn't given to you. That's how I see it anyway.

What I find interesting is that Obama wants a conversation on race, unless anyone starts talking about race; then it's off limits. I think what Obama fears is a talk about his politics. Reverend Wright seems to reflect his politics, so that conversation has to be avoided at all costs.

Soylent Red

That is why it is particularly targeted at middle class and upper-middle class listeners, those most likely to lose sight of the struggle if they start looking at an improving present and a better future.

Wow. That ties in neatly with the whole eschewing of "middleclassness", and Michele wanting people to give up good paying jobs to work in the victimhood sector.

Also goes well with the kinds of things we see in the West Bank, Sadr City, etc.

Garth

June 22, 1997

In the early morning hours of February 23 Raheem and Warren Williams, two teenage cousins, were coming home from the neighborhood store in Philadelphia's Grays Ferry community when they were confronted by some drunk white men outside the Rec Center of St. Gabriel's Catholic Church.

The men started up with racist insults. "Hey, n*ggers!" they yelled. "What you got in that bag? You got some steaks for us, n*ggers?"

Raheem and Warren tried to avoid trouble. But the racists started shoving and one of the white men got knocked down. Dozens of white men poured out of the Rec Center and jumped Raheem and Warren.

Raheem's mother, Annette Williams, told the press what she experienced. "I was in bed and all the commotion woke me. When I looked out the window, I realized that there were about ten white males on top of my son across the street. I went outside to get my son in the house--and I saw another four or five white males on Warren. I'm screaming for Warren, I'm grabbing for my son and I'm telling them to `Come on, let's get in the house.' As I got to the bottom of my front steps, another 40 men come running up. One man pulled a gun and said, `I'm gonna kill all you fuckin' n*iggers. I'm gonna kill you. I want all you n*ggers out of our neighborhood.' Another white man said, `I'm gonna blow up your house.' And all the other men were saying, `We're gonna kill you n*ggers.' Then they all rushed the house, they kicked me all the way into my house. As I made it into the house, we managed to lock the door. But then they began to break down the front door and bust up the front window. Raheem ran out the back to get help. He found a police car around the corner. And when the police car came, the men fled. I came out my house and saw the men flee into the building."

The police refused to follow the men into St. Gabriel's Rec Center--even though there had been an armed attack and clear damage to the Williams' house and door. Eventually they arrested two men, Thomas Hamilton and William Franz. Annette's sister, Cindy Williams, told the RW what she thought when she got there that night: "Why is it that there are 50 white men that attack my sister's family and the police only arrest two of them?!"

South Philadelphia's Grays Ferry is a working class community over a century old. It is a mixed neighborhood where Black and white people have lived for decades. But there are also those who hate this mixing. There is a history of racist attacks that go back as far as anyone can remember. And there is an ugly "whites only" strip of several blocks in Grays Ferry--that has been enforced by ugly means.

Community activist Charles Reeves says that St. Gabriel's church is well known for its racism. Black children are routinely turned away from church sports events. Once Annette's daughter tried to go to a volleyball game there and was openly told by a white man, "No n*ggers allowed."

It was no surprise to most Black people in the neighborhood that the Philly cops protected the white racists. Community activists tell the RW they believe off-duty cops were involved in that late-night attack on the Williams. The group that attacked Annette's house came from a drinking party organized by the "Downtown Irish Society" which is said to include cops in its membership.

Garth

By MICHAEL JANOFSKY
Published: December 12, 1995
When Darryl Shuler returned home from a trip to Houston in early 1989, his parents were not the only ones waiting for him.

Three Philadelphia police officers, saying they had a search warrant for drugs, entered his home and handcuffed and arrested him. Mr. Shuler said that before driving him to the 39th District police station, where he was charged with selling drugs, the officers ransacked the house, confiscated a box with $17,000 in cash that his elderly father had saved and told him they found a bag of cocaine.

But in the months to come, as Mr. Shuler began trying to prove the charges false, six officers from the same district, including those who arrested him, were indicted on Federal corruption charges, among them conducting illegal searches, planting evidence and lying under oath. Nearly all the cases involved black or Hispanic suspects.

All six officers, five of them white and one Asian, pleaded guilty last summer in what is now considered one of the worst police scandals in Philadelphia's history. So far, 56 drug convictions involving the officers have been overturned, and the authorities are reviewing more than 1,600 other arrests made from 1987 through 1994. Ten lawsuits have been filed against the city, and 20 more people have said they intend to sue.

The charges against Mr. Shuler were dropped in 1991. Still, he said, he never regained any of his father's savings from the police.

While many in Philadelphia, including Mayor Edward G. Rendell and senior police officials, insist that the criminal behavior by a few rogue officers was a rare and isolated occurrence on a police force of more than 6,300, two local civil rights organizations and 10 people the officers arrested, including Mr. Shuler, have set out to prove that that is not the case.

In a class-action lawsuit against the officers and the city that lawyers say they are prepared to file this week in Federal court, the plaintiffs contend that the officers' actions are merely the latest example of a systemic racism that is rampant in the Philadelphia Police Department. The suit will seek to end a "historic pattern of police abuse" directed toward minorities, says the complaint, which the Philadelphia chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union expects to file. The local chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People and the Police-Barrio Relations Project are also plaintiffs.

"We feel a moral obligation to see that the Federal courts be part of the forum about the way policing is done in this country, even in 1995," Stefan Presser, the legal director of the Civil Liberties Union's chapter here, said in an interview. "We thought that policing the way it has been done here ended in 1955."

I could do this all day.

Garth

btw, many of my childhood friends from NE Philly became cops and they are STILL racist and STILL corrupt.

Ranger

Garth,

So, I take it that you are down with Obama's "Typical White Person" remark?

centralcal

Garth, did you get kicked out of TalkLeft?

Ranger

Garth,

Now if you can explain how those incidents justify preaching from the pulpit that the US government is engaged in an ongoing campaign of genocide against people of color you might have a point.

glasater

"I could do this all day"

Please don't.

Other Tom

Garth argues by anecdote taken from newpapers. And if a Philly newspaper reports a few instances of white-on-black violence (shall we discuss black-on-white, or is that off limits?), that's enough to justify Christian ministers preaching that the US government is inventing drugs to get people of color addicted, right?

Garth, I wouldn't have a clue about your high school buddies. But I do take it on faith that, as you suggest, you are their moral superior.

Sue

Listen to the full truth not half truth even if you don't agree with the facts spoken

Rev. Jeremiah Wright's 9-11 sermon in context

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOdlnzkeoyQ

Jeremiah Wright's God Damn America in context

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvMbeVQj6Lw

Sue

I am re-submitting with a clickable link. Please disreagard my previous post.

Listen to the full truth not half truth even if you don't agree with the facts spoken

Rev. Jeremiah Wright's 9-11 sermon in context

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOdlnzkeoyQ

Jeremiah Wright's God Damn America in context

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvMbeVQj6Lw

Jane

Garth argues by anecdote taken from newpapers.

And then talks about his "still" racist friends.

So when did you stop being a racist Garth?

Jane

Sue,

What did you think?

Rick Ballard

"(shall we discuss black-on-white, or is that off limits?)"

Can we ask BHO about how he feels about Mumia getting that very well deserved needle?

Garth

white on black crimes aren't off limits at all. in fact the imbalance, goes further still to prove my point.

look, if you don't want anecdotes or newspaper stories, that's fine. no one here is going to vote for obama anyway.

wright is both a product of his times and, from everything I've learned, a fine man. A marine, a man of god and good works. obama has explicitly rejected the way of thinking that undergirds wright's most inflamatory remarks.

philadelphia cops are and have been notoriously racist. no one from the state can deny their reputation, agree with it or not. chicago and the chicago police were very much the same way.

i very clearly remember getting drunk with "quinn" and the boys as quinn explained what he'd learned about planting evidence and providing testimony. the trick is to throw the evidence and then testify you saw the suspect throw it. for whatever reason, this was the preferred method for convicting those they assumed to be guilty.

the most little noticed portion of Obama's speech is the one i hope he will later expound on... in fact, it was at the core of John Edwards's campaign. the real issue lies not in racial injustice, but in a dearth of class justice.

better public schools, universal healthcare, childcare...

you get the picture.

PeterUK

"btw, many of my childhood friends from NE Philly became cops and they are STILL racist and STILL corrupt."

You see Garth? If you could leave behind those corrupt people ,Obama could turn his back on Pastor Wright.Surely you don't want a leader with fewer principles than you?

Garth

i haven't turned my back on them. to a man they would give me the shirt off their back and so would i. you don't kicked out of the tribe. they know where i stand and i think they kick out of it.

don't get me wrong. being a cop in philly sucks. at least most beats. you deal with criminals all day long. they didn't create the slums and the poor education that goes along with it. they just have to clean it up. that sucks. and they buy houses in the neighborhood two doors down from their parents... it's a community and they want to protect it...

i respect the fact that obama didn't "throw'em under the bus." i haven't and i like the fact that Obama hasn't either.

Ranger

the most little noticed portion of Obama's speech is the one i hope he will later expound on... in fact, it was at the core of John Edwards's campaign. the real issue lies not in racial injustice, but in a dearth of class justice.

better public schools, universal healthcare, childcare...

you get the picture.

Posted by: Garth | March 25, 2008 at 08:50 PM

Yes, we get the picture.

You want to change people by changing society. Because you personally taking action to change society by changing people (like your life long friends) is just to damn hard. So excuse the raceism of today as a product of environmentjust leave it to Obama to solve all those problems for the next generation.

PeterUK

"i haven't turned my back on them. to a man they would give me the shirt off their back and so would i."

Nice of you to slag them off in public,but that's what friends are for.

PeterUK

So it's "better public schools, universal healthcare, childcare", with understandable racist overtones?

Garth

actually ranger, that's pretty close. allow me to paraphrase slightly.

I want to improve society.

Because by personally taking action to change society by changing people (like your life long friends) is not enough. I would accept the racism of today as a by-product of environment and trust that by voting for Obama I will get a president who is not only right on the issues, but, who, could potentially, take another step forward in smoothing out the very real racial tensions existing in this country.

who could disagree with that?

Garth

i haven't slagged them off. it's certainly nothing i haven's said to them personally.

like you i guess, they think i'm naive.

Neo

Why Is Jeremiah Wright So Angry?

It obvious. His number one mentoree isn't putting enough in the basket.

In 2002, $1,050 to charity against $259,395 AGI.

Garth

and no, there are no racial overtones to better schools and free healthcare...

their needed in white america and black.

PeterUK

"I want to improve society.

Because by personally taking action to change society by changing people (like your life long friends) is not enough"

Yes leave it to someone else,but what else from a liberal,"i haven't turned my back on them. to a man they would give me the shirt off their back and so would i."
Nice of you to to give yourself your friends shirt.

PeterUK

"and no, there are no racial overtones to better schools and free healthcare."

You missed the word "with",not "to" with.
There are certainly racialist overtones to Pastor Wright,the mentor of of Obama.

Ranger

I want to improve society.

Because by personally taking action to change society by changing people (like your life long friends) is not enough. I would accept the racism of today as a by-product of environment and trust that by voting for Obama I will get a president who is not only right on the issues, but, who, could potentially, take another step forward in smoothing out the very real racial tensions existing in this country.

who could disagree with that?


Posted by: Garth | March 25, 2008 at 09:22 PM

No, actually, it seems you don't seem to want to improve society personally. In all your stories you have not once talked about how you personally have confronted your racist, cop friends. They are "good people", so you let their racism pass. If you confronted them, they might not want to be your friends any more, and given that they are cops, that might even put you at personal risk in the future.

So, instead, as a good liberal you vote for Obama and purify your liberal soul, and you can go back and drink with your cop friends with a clean soul, never having to confront them about their racism, safe in the knowledge that St. Obama will solve everything. No hard work needed on your part at all!

GMax

What about free cotton candy? You missed that one. And casual thursdays and ...

Jane

No, actually, it seems you don't seem to want to improve society personally.

That's it. Rely on everyone else to change things to your liking. Never lift a finger and keep that hand out. It's the progressive way.

So Garth, you think your man Obama is gonna change those racist cop friends of yours? Think again.

PeterUK

The Barack H,Omama manifesto,hot of the press.

"I'd like to build the world a home
And furnish it with love
Grow apple trees and honey bees
And snow-white turtle doves

Chorus:
I'd like to teach the world to sing
In perfect harmony
I'd like to hold it in my arms
And keep it company
(That's the song I hear)
I'd like to see the world for once
(Let the world sing today)
All standing hand in hand
And hear them echo through the hills
For peace throughout the land
That's the song I hear
(That's the song I hear)
Let the world sing today
(Let the whole wide world keep singing)
A song of peace that echoes on
And never goes away

(Repeat 1st stanza and Chorus)

Put your hand in my hand
Let's begin today
Put your hand in my hand
Help me find a way"

Who could argue with that.

bgates

if i had grown up black and educated in philly, i would probably have a bigger chip on my shoulder than wright.
No one doubts that about you, Garth.

Garth

no i don't think he's going to change racism overnight. it's simply not possible, but, he is uniquely qualified to address basic class inequalities.

nor is it my job to tell my friends how to live their life. our ties aren't based on a shared ideology. they know where i stand and I'm under no illusions as to the realities they face.

i do take active part in promoting candidates who share my views as to how this country should be run.

scorn and derision, not substantive argument is all i'm getting here.

Jane

i do take active part in promoting candidates who share my views as to how this country should be run.

Well bully for you. What's a few lies among friends afterall.

scorn and derision, not substantive argument is all i'm getting here.

Not much to argue about with a guy who can't tell "his tribe" that he thinks they are racist. But hey, keep doing your part to cure the world's ills Garth. Let us know how it works out.

Other Tom

"wright is both a product of his times and, from everything I've learned, a fine man. A marine, a man of god and good works. obama has explicitly rejected the way of thinking that undergirds wright's most inflamatory remarks."

David Duke was a product of his times, and I'm a product of the same times. He spouts racial hatred; I don't. Ditto Louis Farrakhan, Lyndon Larouche, Bull Connor and Jeremiah Wright.

In twenty years in the man's congregation, Obama never rejected a single thing--not until the word got out about what a venomous fellow Wright is.

No one has pointed to a single thing this guy has ever done to bridge either the partisan or racial divide; indeed he has been as partisan as any member of the US Senate in his two years there. He was notorious in the Illinois legislature for ducking controversial votes, and has never voted against his party's line in the Senate on any matter of importance.

If he couldn't alleviate racial enmity in his church in twnty years, what on earth should cause us to believe he can do it throughout the country just by getting elected--his words? Is it OK if we ask for a little action first? What reason do we have to believe that his behavior as president would differ in any way from his behavior as a parishioner, a state legislator or a US Senator?

Ranger

nor is it my job to tell my friends how to live their life.

Posted by: Garth | March 25, 2008 at 09:54 PM

Really? So, racism is ok on a personal level, but wrong on a social level? Hey, some of your best friends are racists!

scorn and derision, not substantive argument is all i'm getting here.

Posted by: Garth | March 25, 2008 at 09:54 PM

Maybe that is because you, yourself, are not making an argument. You started here saying that there is lots of racism in Philly, so Rev. Wright is perfectly justified in telling people from the pulpit that the US government is engaged in a deliberate policy of genocide against people of color.

Now you're saying that racism is ok, because you have no right to tell other people how to live (because that would be judgemental), but you will vote for Obama because racism is real and wrong and he will work to solve it (even though you admit your friends will not change).

Make a cogent argument and people here will engage it in good faith. Make silly circular BS prattle, and people will treat it as such.

centralcal

I am way behind on all of the threads here, but while trying to catch up, I was watching Steve Harrington (?) on Fox News talking about Rev. Wright in Florida, and how he interviewed people who knew the Rev. and the media representation was not the "Rev. Wright that they knew." It struck me that I have heard the same thing from many media reports. So, I have but one question:

Will the real Reverend Wright please stand up?

I mean, c'mon guys, the tapes of sermons, the church bulletin (which is only marginally shorter than War and Peace) paint a picture of a really racist, angry man.

So, I repeat, for all of his supporters, including the Honorable Senator Obama, will the real Reverend Wright, please stand up and tell us what is so wrong about our opinion of you?

GMax

Garth

You wont listen so why should we engage you on any level other than a flyby troll?

But book this one, the race changed and not to Obama's advantage when he gave that speech. I totally agree with Juan Williams, big ol Democrat, who said that Obama just became the Black candidate. He no longer is above the fray and transcends the fray, he is in the middle of it. And all of his carefully picked comments, drew blacks closer to him and pushed a bunch of whites away. He already had virtually all the blacks he could possibly get, and that population has been used to pump up turnout in past elections so there is not much upside there. In the general election blacks will be 11% of the votes. He needs more white votes not less. He did not start a dialogue, its was a monologue that sounded to many whites like he thinks black racists get a pass, and whites should just understand. Lots of otherwise Democrat voters and independents who would consider the democrat just said phoey on that.

A few more stumbles and Obama could end up making McGovern look like a strong candidate.
Go to Wiki and look up McGovern, George.

There is a reason that most recent Democrats have tried to run as if they are moderates. Flaunting your progressiveness is sure ticket to a landslide against you.

hit and run

Other Tom:
No one has pointed to a single thing this guy has ever done to bridge either the partisan or racial divide


Dean Barnett, The Blathering Storm:

IN HIS MANY MONTHS on the campaign trail, Barack Obama has distinguished himself as the finest orator in recent political memory. With such skills in this area, it's little wonder that Obama and his campaign have put talking on a pedestal. When Obama talks, he does great. Even his detractors can't deny it.

But there's a stark disconnect between the talking Obama and Obama the man of action. Or rather Obama the man of inaction. It says something rather profound about Obama that his most noteworthy campaign-related act to date has been to sit passively in a church pew for 20 years worth of Sundays.

RichatUF

sylvia-

I wanted to know more about what slave life was like in day to day matters. But I didn't see much on it, yet. I saw a lot of articles on history such as the Civil War, Jim Crow laws, but nothing more personal. I wonder why that is. Was that information not recorded as it should have been?

Plenty of information is available. Use google scholar for specific information, this is a good topic, this too. This book is a good primer: "American Slavery 1619-1877. It is a short work and has a pretty good bibliography and various data tables.

centralcal

oh, why....?

why, oh why, did I pick this thread? I see Garth is still here! Garth, give it up and please, go home! (Or, did they kick you out there?),

Garth

what part of "they know where i stand" didn't you understand?

i have told them they're racist. they know it and admit it. i don't have a god complex and like i said my ties aren't ideological. i freely concede we live in different worlds. i think their's is wrong and they know that. there's more to life than politics.

gmax is correct that maybe this country is not ready to elect a black progressive candidate and maybe progressive credentials can't win. i hope he's wrong and will do what i can to ensure a democratic prez.

and what i am saying is the Rev. Wright grew up in philadelphia at a time when civil rights were the topic of the day and philadelphia had one of the most racist police forces on the East Coast.

Wright is NOT running for President, nor would I elect him.

Some one from his church is.

Personally, I would feel more comfortable with an atheist, but, I guess we'll have to wait for that.

Obama's speech was far less divisive than the resident chattering nabobs of negativity found here.

Garth

slave life?

try reading Roots.

or you can rent it.

Rick Ballard

Neo provided a link above which summarizes how profoundly shallow Obama is. After being pastored and mentored by Wright for more than fifteen years, Obama's giving in support of the ministry of TUCC amounted to less tham .5% of his income. A perfect illustration of the fact that he's all show, no go.

Kinda like I mentioned within a week or so of the beginning of his ascent. A cheap, hustling Chicago pol with a solid lefty background and not a damned actual accomplishment to his name. A rather perfect foil to Clinton, who's only advantage is that she has been doing nothing for much longer. I'll give BHO the edge as a liar but not by all that much.

Garth

Because he didn't tithe enough?

that's precious.

Rick Ballard

A tithe is 10%. BHO missed by a factor of 20. Do you think there is some fairy that fills a churchs bank account every Monday morning?

3% would be enough to not generate any comment but .5% is almost as risible as Clinton writing off Bubba's shorts as a "charitable" donation.

BHO's a cheap hustler. He knows it, Wright knew it, Rezko knew it and we know it. That won't cut into his support among progs at all but that's one of those little idiosybcracies pertaining to IQ.

kim

Garth, Obama justified racist belief, words, and actions, and tried to blame corporations, the engines of economic health and the mechanism dissolving class conflict, for the problems America has. He is a nuttering nimbo of negatorianism.

People get it, you just don't.
===================

Cecil Turner

white on black crimes aren't off limits at all. in fact the imbalance, goes further still to prove my point.

Imbalance? Not sure what you mean by this, but the fact is that interracial crime is far more likely to be black-on-white than vice versa. (And we probably don't want to discuss stuff like 12% of the population committing 50% of the murders, do we?) Not sure what "point" that proves, but I suspect it isn't the one you suggest with those atypical anecdotes.

clarice

How many anti-Israel advisers must a candidate have before it is a lead cinch that he shares their views? Here's Obama's latest:General McPeak:

[quote]

Well, it is likely that Obama will soon be having to retract Merrill McPeak. McPeak, who was arrested last year for driving under the influence, apparently has a problem controlling more than his thirst for fermented beverages. He also has a penchant for bashing Israel or, more particularly, Jews who oppose negotiating with terrorists.

McPeak has a long history of criticizing Israel for not going back to the 1967 borders as part of any peace agreement with Arab states. In 1976 McPeak wrote an article for Foreign Affairs magazine questioning Israel's insistence on holding on to the Golan Heights and parts of the West Bank...

In recent years McPeak has echoed the Mearsheimer-Walt view that American Middle East policy is being controlled by Jews at the expense of America's interests in the region....

The interviewer asked McPeak: "So where's the problem? State? White House?"

McPeak replied: "New York City. Miami. We have a large vote -- vote, here in favor of Israel. And no politician wants to run against it."

Translation (as if it's needed): Jews -- who put Israel over every American interest -- control America's policy on the Middle East. And McPeak has the audacity to accuse Bill Clinton of McCarthyism.

McPeak also claims that a combination of Jews and Christian Zionists are manipulating U.S. policy in Iraq in dangerous and radical ways[/quote]

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=12937

Soylent Red

Because he didn't tithe enough?

He didn't "tithe" at all. Don't use a word unless you know what it means.

Now quick...go look it up.

and what i am saying is the Rev. Wright grew up in philadelphia at a time when civil rights were the topic of the day and philadelphia had one of the most racist police forces on the East Coast.

Garth, I'm sorry but I have to call BULLSHIT on you.

I know people who were firehosed and had dogs turned on them in Alabama. Real honest-to-Obama Civil Rights Activists who lived in the heart of Jim Crow and bore the brunt of the fear and violence of that era.

Most of them are Democrats. All of them are Protestant Christian.

None of them hate whitey.

None of them think AIDS was developed by the US and turned on Africa.

None of think we had 9/11 coming to us.

None of them think "Israel" is a "racist" state.

While most can point to latent racism, most confront it where they find it, rather than imagine it in places it isn't.

So how is Rev. Wright's approach legitimate when people who were at the sharp tip of the civil rights spear plainly do not side with him? Forget about what us typical white folk think. What did MLK think? What did the Freedom Riders (of all races) think?

It damn sure wasn't "God damn America".

Vote for whomever makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside, but you're just as wrong as you can be about Jeremiah Wright. And you will never convince me, or most others who aren't racebaiters or handwringing Affirmative Action shills otherwise.

So you should probably leave.

Garth

"a cheap hustler"

that's even more precious.

as for "tithing,"

i'm impressed he gave anything at all.

when a black man kills a white man it's usually to take his money.

when a white man kills a black man, too often it happens cuz he's black.

if you can't see it...

well, you don't want to believe...

the facts.

Soylent Red

Clarice:

Does Gen. McPeak know Mel Gibson? Surely they must bump into each other at Drunken Anti-Semite meetings.

kim

The 'facts' according to Garth. I think you are full of carp.
===================================

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