When Does The Racial Reconciliation Begin?

Here is Barack Obama describing his Presidential credentials recently to the Houston Chronicle:

In a conference call, Obama told the Chronicle editorial board that "more than any other candidate, I can bridge some of the partisan as well as racial and religious divides that have developed in this country that prevent us from getting things done."

Barack, healing the racial divides.  It's a pretty thought, and I suspect that many others share that hope.

So, watch this video of Barack's minister, Jeremiah Wright, delivering a sermon recently, and ask yourself a couple of questions:

1.  When does Barack work his reconciliation magic on his minister?

2.  Does Barack actually bring his two young daughters to that church to listen to that stuff?

Obama has a huge opportunity for some racial reconciliation pretty close to home, and seems to have accomplished nothing (or, heaven help us, is this a newer, calmer Wright?)

Ben Smith of The Politico writes:

Sure does feel like we're plunging into the abyss tonight.

Six more weeks to Pennsylvania?

ERRATA:  There is plenty to dislike about Wright's sermon but let me single out his launch point, where he explains that he understands why "so many folks are hating on Barack Obama".

Who is the "so many"?  Not the media.  Not the voters in mostly-white states like Iowa or Wisconsin.  Not the adoring rock-band crowds.

Where is he seeing this hate?  I am sure it is somewhere off on the fringe, as it is for Hillary and McCain, but shouldn't a minister be looking for love, and the best in us?  OK, let's reprise the quote from the "Pollyanna" scene with the minister played by Karl Malden:

Reverend Ford: [reading Pollyanna's locket] When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will. - Abraham Lincoln.
Pollyanna Whittier: He was President.
Reverend Ford: Yes, I know... but I've never heard *that* before.

OK, one reason he had never heard that before was because Lincoln never said it.  Still, as Karl Malden's character realizes, he ought to be looking for the good in people, since you are more likely to find something if you look for it.

From ABC NEWS:  "God damn America"?  Wright is attracting attention now.

Here a post about some old Times coverage from April 2007, and some Jan 2008 coverage of the award by Wright's magazine to Farrakhan.

Comments

[SG]

Not enough proof about the CIA, Ollie, George the Contras and DRUGS?

try these books..

Kill the Messenger: How the CIA's Crack-Co... by Nick Schou

Whiteout: The CIA, Drugs and the Press by Alexander Cockburn

Powderburns: Cocaine, Contras & the Drug War by Celerino, III Castillo

Cocaine Politics: Drugs, Armies, and the C... by Peter Dale Scott

Drugs, Oil, and War: The United States in... by Peter Dale Scott

The Politics of Heroin: CIA Complicity in... by Alfred W. McCoy

Barry & 'the Boys': The CIA, the Mob and A... by Daniel Hopsicker

Lost History: Contras, Cocaine, the Press... by Robert Parry

Firewall: The Iran-Contra Conspiracy and C... by Lawrence E. Walsh

The Conspirators: Secrets of an Iran-Contr... by Al Martin

Compromised: Clinton, Bush and the CIA by Terry Reed

The Mafia, CIA and George Bush by Pete Brewton

Swallow the pill, it is so my friend.

[clarice]

You apparently swallowed something,SG. What about addressing the issue at hand instead of posting a bunch of irrelevant talking points and idiotic cites.

[SG]

idiotic?
irrelevant?
perhaps to you.
These points reinforce my statement that many people of color have a different American experience than you do and sometimes are angry and paranoid..... but with due cause.
It is just not so crazy coming from someone who lived through Jim Crow laws here.
I don't agree with him, but I understand the pathology of America that created him.
I assume Mr. Obama also understands but doesn't agree with him.

[SG]

Clarice,
May I remind you of the subject at the top of the page.
"When Does The Racial Reconciliation Begin?"
It is all relevant.

Like I said Clarice..... Swallow the pill.

Perhaps with a fine Chianti and some Fava beans.

[glasater]

SG

Oliver North's denial--cited in the last paragraph of the section you refer to--is good enough for me.

And can you point out one objectively thinking author on that list you've thrown up?

[SG]

Clarice,
i just re-read and perhaps you don't understand my points. The points mentioned above refer to the comments in question made by the minister. I hoped to put his anger in perspective.

SG

[clarice]

Undoubtedly, many Blacks have a different view--but do not ask me to support as a post-racial candidate whose political life is inextricably entwined with a reace baiting, white hating, Israel hating, US hateing crazy pants preacher.

[clarice]

**as a post-racial candidate A MAN whose political ****

[clarice]

***Undoubtedly, many Blacks have a different view--but do not ask me to support as a post-racial candidate a man whose political life is inextricably entwined with a race baiting, white hating, Israel hating, US hating crazy pants preacher.***
See where I'm going, SG? You seem to be saying Blacks have grievances (and some carp about Bush and the CIA which I can't see the point of) and seem to be using that to say therefore it's okay that Wright says this noxious dreck, that Obama supports it, and that he's donw what he can to hide his support for this dreck filled "pastor" from the voters who you must understand would never have supported him had they known ..

[SG]

Glasater..
Define "objectively thinking"
Is that not subjective?
Have you read any of the books?
Your denials before even being aware that this happened suggests that you are necessarily an "objective thinker"
Are you too young to remember? It was all over TV. It a fact. Many objective thinkers wrote about it. Do the research, educate yourself.
Dont run away screaming with your fingers in your ears.

[kim]

How does Wright, or Obama for that matter, expect to thread the eye of reconciliation with that camel of anger?
======================

[Cecil Turner]

These points reinforce my statement that many people of color have a different American experience . . .

Oh, please. These people weren't experimented upon (not that there was any adequate treatment for syphilis in 1932 . . . the predominant "cure" was a form of heavy-metal poisoning; though yeah, the experimenters--many of them black doctors from the Tuskegee Institute--should've terminated the study when effective treatments became available), they're being fed a line of nonsense by latter-day race baiters. Similarly, CIA involvement in drug trafficking is lamentable (and a good indication of what strange bedfellows come out of cloak-and-dagger covert missions), but the contention that it was a master plan to keep the darkies down, or for that matter materially added to the amount of drugs on our streets, is just plain silly. The AIDS connection is even sillier.

People don't believe this nonsense because of their "experience" . . . they believe it because there's a thriving business in telling lies to the gullible. Take a couple of incidents out of context, harp on "the man" draggin' em down, and point out that the poor thrice-convicted felons can't get a fair shake in the justice system. Like that's a bad thing.

Here's the cynical view: Wright and Barack are both cashing in on race-baiting demagoguery. Wright is a small time Farrakhan wannabe (and I can spit the difference between their competing supposedly Christian/Islamic visions), Obama is refining the Jackson/Sharpton method and going for the power. Hopefully this incident will take some of the gloss off his persona before a bunch of weak-minded fools elect him to an office for which he is completely unqualified. See, there he goes again, inspiring hope. Great stuff. O-ba-ma, O-ba-ma.

[kim]

Believe me, booting up white guilt ain't gonna get it. There are plenty of black and white folks who've gotten beyond the anger and guilt, but not, apparently, in the Democratic Party, where it is the staff of life.
=====================

[kim]

In fact, you seem a little engorged yourself, SG.
==============================

[SG]

Clarice,
Support who you like. I just find it hard to let pass a discussion about race in America with so many obvious holes in the story. How can you discuss race in America without acknowledging that the recipients of this treatment have a point. Move forward, yes! but understand why we are in the "Hot Water" that we are in socially.

I do not believe his approach is the way to the future. But I understand his anger.
Can you disprove what the Minister said.

[kim]

Poor informed consent, and ethics of human experimentation, seen through the retrospectoscope can be distorting, and weren't necessarily racially biased. We've come a long way, baby. Well, some of us.
===================

[glasater]

SG

You are taking so called events and twisting them to your purpose. Pretzel logic.

As I said--North denied that drug business and that certainly is good enough for me--why isn't it for you?

[SG]

"Believe me, booting up white guilt ain't gonna get it."

I totally agree with you.....

That approach will never work.

I still get why he is so distrusting of the US and angry...

[Rick Ballard]

Kim,

We're supposed to quietly sob in support as we trudge down Empath Lane clutching our Hope & Change placards, preparing to cast our votes for the Last Best Chance for Reconciliation Through Race Baiting.

Dimwitted dullards peddling this dreck should take a look at how referenda outlawing AA do when the voters get a shot at them in plebiscite. The vast majority consider this a paid bill and aren't reaching for as much as enough small change to keep hucksters and race baiters like Sharpton, Jackson and Wright in business any longer.

[kim]

Maybe he should be angry about Darfur, and a little more trusting of the US. And for sure, he ought to trust Jesus a little more if he going to take his name to effect.

Harold Wright could have been a reconciliator, but he took the path more traveled, and not even with good intentions. What is the point of all his hate?
=========================

[kim]

Right, Rick, quietly sob, tilt our heads to the side, and our tongues in the corner of our mouths, as we contemplate how to best demagogue all the competing strains of racism. The Democratic Party laid this feast, and I hope it chokes them.
==============================

[SG]

Glasater,
I am not twisting anything. I don't have a purpose. I just have an opinion and it is valid.
You must not hear me....
All I am saying is that we created this man and we have to deal with him. Many blacks distrust the US and with due cause. It kind of makes sense in some cases.....

Amnesia won't work.

Oh and Kim....
Not sure what you were getting at with regard to Tuskegee, but it sounded real scary...

[kim]

Quite frankly, SG, persisting in the anger is keeping the race down. Deal with that instead of 'understanding' it.
================================

[kim]

Not sure what you are getting at with Tuskegee, SG, but it sounds guilt ridden and counterproductive. Deal with Darfur, not the long gone past.
=========================

[SG]

"Harold Wright could have been a reconciliator, but he took the path more traveled, and not even with good intentions. What is the point of all his hate?"

Rick,
I totally agree with this....

[kim]

"We created this man"? I'm sorry, you are wrong. And you are wrong to think you created him. He created himself, opportunistically and evilly, and the Democratic Party aided and abetted him. It was easy politics.
==================================

[SG]

I think America should vehemently disagree with Minister Wright....
I also think America should understand him.....

[boris]

Let's understand Wright the same way we understand BDS.

[Jane]

Wright and Barack are both cashing in on race-baiting demagoguery.

Cecil,

I just got off the phone with Mr. Right and this was his take on it all.

Yeah he's a cynic too.

[Soylent Red]

Where the hell are all of these Obamatons coming from, seeking to enlighten me?

Anyone who quotes wikipedia as a serious reference should be immediately suspect but...

SG:

All of those sources are well and good, and I commend you on at least being a reader, rather than a slack-jawed media swallower.

But in my personal library I have at least twice as many "references" "proving" the existence of UFOs. While these sources amuse my inner X-phile, I don't pretend they are serious research, and I damn sure don't base any of my political arguments on them (else I would be a Kucinich supporter).

What I'm getting at is that, speaking for myself, I'm pretty educated and consider myself somewhat wired in to current events. Most people up here are even smarter and more experienced than me. Don't you think all of these conspiracies to hold the black man down might have, at some point, made it into mainstream educational or media outlets? Paladin Press and suchlike doesn't count in my book.

I know, I know: Swallow the pill. But see, for me anyway, post-modern Matrix references don't sell an argument.

I also don't buy Obama's explanations because they don't pass my rational man test. In this case the "rational man" is me and how I would react to Wright over the course of several decades.

Would I have sat and listened to this for 20-plus years? Would I have allowed my children to do so? Nope. And neither would most people who didn't have some sort of underlying motivation to do so. Even then, the motivation would stop at myself and not extend to my children, unless I saw nothing wrong with exposing children to that kind of thought.

Your argument implies that Obama, by virtue of his skin color/experience/cultural bias/whatever can simultaneously participate in (and donate to) such activity without being sympathetic to it. Again, as a rational man I not only couldn't do that, but wouldn't do that.

Finally, whatever he may like to project, Obama has really never really been subjected to the kind of racism Wright decries. Maybe a few racial epithets along the way, but hardly a life of low-wage jobs and gang warfare. He's what my set used to call a "poor little rich kid", race notwithstanding.

Obama's life represents a hell of a lot more privilege than I've had in my life, and in the liberal circles in which he ran, institutional racism would have been minimal. Claiming to be one of the oppressed is a lot different from actually being one of the oppressed.

So why be a member of TUCC? To gain street cred? To darken his fides? If that's the case, then he's a hypocrite to his own people for pretending to believe what you claim they believe, in spite of an education and background that would put those beliefs out of his frame of reference. Maybe he was just "trying to understand" this sort of racism, in order to more effectively combat it,for twenty years, with wife and children in tow. Please.

Or maybe he just was unaware. For twenty years. With wife and children in tow. Despite the vast array of TUCC propaganda out there for sale. Or Wright's media exposure. A person that unaware of his surroundings certainly has no business being President.

The bottom line is that for a guy who wants to be post-racial,race influences nearly every part of the spirit of his campaign. For a guy who wants to run on his positions, he sure seems reluctant to tell people about them. For a guy who wants people to vote on his superior judgment, he sure has exhibited much of it in choosing his friends and advisors.

[SG]

"Not sure what you are getting at with Tuskegee, SG, but it sounds guilt ridden and counterproductive. Deal with Darfur, not the long gone past."

Kim,
I agree with you. Perhaps this is just a case of it not getting across via text. I just used those examples to illustrate where his views may have come from. Not to discuss them directly. Interchange those examples with any other things he may have experienced in America. I have Black nephews and they just don't see the same America that I do in some ways. It is really sad actually.

[SG]

Soylent Red,
You make some good points....
I'll think about them...

SG

[kim]

It is sad, SG, and I'm a little sorry I've been so harsh. It's just that persisting in the victimization, and the guilt, is counterproductive. It has been easy for the Harold Wrights of the world, though, and the Democrats seeking to keep blacks on their political plantation.

Perhaps, Obama really does see a vision past all this, but he's a little late articulating that, now. Now he just looks like another sorry politician willing to use whatever bit of demagoguery helps him. He's right, the US electorate would love to get past all this. Haven't you noticed that Bush and company seem past it, but the media isn't?
=============================

[SG]

Once again, with respect to the Contras and drugs, forget about my references. This a matter of public record. Do the research.

SG

[clarice]

Well, that may be sad, SG, but if they decide to run as post-racial candidates, and I dig up their support for this stuff, I promise I'll use it, and I am sure it will lead voters to conclude they are frauds.

[SG]

Kim,
I TOTALLY agree with your last post.

I get the "harsh", It is a heavy issue. It was nice of you to say sorry.

SG

[kim]

You, for one, SG, don't seem to hold a lot of hate in your heart.
=====================================

[RichatUF]

SG-

Can you disprove what the Minister said.

What? You can't be serious. The "minister" was repeating the standard Marxist conspiracist line with a light coating of Biblical phrases to make it taste a bit better. Where in all his rants does the "minister" prove or bring the extraordinary evidence to back up his claims (maybe he left it behind on the mother ship)?

Although the reverend, or SG since he is coming to his defense, should be doing this-I'll give SG a heads up:

1. Claim regarding the CIA "created" AIDS...amazing that this bit of professional propaganda is still around (see pp.428-484). It got good circulation in Africa by the KGB by starting the rumor in an Indian paper then jumping it over to South Africa and Senegal. Snopes has a page dedicated to it in its various forms. And the NIH has studied it regarding condom use.

2. I'm a bit in the weeds regarding the drug dealing CIA rumors, but iirc, those got started with Mike Ruppert (kook), mainlined to the San Jose Mercury News (commie rag), and found a receptive audience with the pro-Sandanist, pro-Castro Congressmembers (useful idiots) [a twofer in the progs eyes: end the drug war to addict more of the plantation and eliminate the CIA to give the field to our enemies].

One could begin an exposition about how propaganda and nacotics are useful and productive incendiary attacks, which put people into positions in which they can be compelled and exploited; however I'll save it for another day, but point out that Bear Stearns CEO, though he denies it, liked weed. Maybe it was for "medicinal purposes".

Anyway, the minister' 9/16 sermon seemed like the standard prog talking points about 9/11 and "why they hate us". Can't say that I'm really all that surprised.

[glasater]

To all the commenters on this portion of the thread--I truly appreciate all the thoughts and words written showing that disagreement can be somewhat resolved most reasonably.

Soylent--your words expressed above are just stunningly good. Thank you

[SG]

I said above that I thought the Aids comment was totally untrue but I listed Tuskegee merely to illustrate how he may have reason to distrust our systems.
Ugly, counterproductive, hard to swallow? YES!
but I and many other Americans see some truth in some of what he says. I surely don't recommend this way of dealing with racism, but I understand it.

[boris]

this way of dealing with racism

This is not a way to deal with racism. If that's how you "understand" it then you don't understand anything.

[SG]

Glasater,
I agree. I appreciate all of the opinions expressed here..... I have even learned a thing or two.... I hope I am not alone.
(I am running out of steam though... I am using an iphone.... ouch!)

By the way, read up on it if you get the chance. The Contra stuff is really jaw dropping.

[Soylent Red]

This is not a way to deal with racism.

Amen to that.

You deal with racism by exposing it (and the ignorance it is based on) and crushing it, wherever it is found. Even in South Chicago.

Not by coddling it or "understanding" it.

[SG]

True,
But that is where it gets "tricky" (and I have no answers) This places the cursor conveniently in the center and that does not reflect the reality of race in America.

[RichatUF]

SG-

I and many other Americans see some truth in some of what he says

This is a function of our terrible government education. One day will come when political indoctrination is not the norm.

I surely don't recommend this way of dealing with racism, but I understand it.

Curious. The good reverend is using recycled KGB talking points for his sermons in an overall black seperatist message and I'm "supposed to understand" that it his way "to deal with the legacy of racism in the US". No thank you. It is the reverend's way to maintain his power and keep his flock ignorant and in line. BHO's support for the reverend was to put himself and his wife in a position to featherbed their retirement by grafting out of the healthcare system using the diversity key.

[SG]

It's so hard to resist putting it into that even, simple box but it is not quite that simple. Blacks have reasons for these feelings of distrust. It is hard to get by when you are living it.
What do we do? I wish I knew...

[Soylent Red]

does not reflect the reality of race in America.

The perception of the "reality of race in America" is the crux of the issue.

And I submit to you two things:

1. Most African-Americans with an effective education over junior high, do not buy in to Wright's conspiracy theories and bigotry.

2. The degree to which white Americans buy into Wright's conspiracy theories and bigotry define how likely they are to give Obama a pass, based on his skin color affiliation with Wright and black activism. That, in and of itself, is implicit racism.

[glasater]

SG
I have read books on Iran/Contra and know whereof you speak.
I just don't think it's useful to dredge up old stuff like that. Kinda reminds me of Lot's wife looking back at the burning of Sodom and Gomorrha and what happened to her.

[GMax]

The Tuskegee study of syphillis ended in 1972. It was based on a study of 400 subjects starting back in 1932. I have not heard how many survived long term syphillis infection but no effective treatment until penicillin was widely available in the very late 40s existed that did not have worse side effects than the cure. And who were the doctors. Look above to Cecil comment if you are interested in gaining knowledge and not demagogueing cuz it the only slim reed around and you are way out on it.

So 36 years is a long time since the end of this program. Is there any current evidence of any similar program still in place today? If not why do I have to understand anything, other than a bigot usually starts with a kernel of truth, and then stereotypes and exagerates until he gets to his bigoted desire conclusion. And I understand that we have a bigot here, there seems little doubt to that. And I dont even have blue eyes.

[SG]

Most of us have no idea what this man says other than what is in the clips. I did not really see "separatist", I saw him outlining injustices that he feels his community experiences and a different opinion than what we are used to perhaps (along with some unnecessary and inflammatory crap) . Part of loving America is expecting her to keep her word.

[Jane]

Yeah that would explain the "God Damn America" part SG.

Not

[Sara]

I don't see how rehashing old racism does anything to advance understanding in today's world. Old grievances, such as Tuskeegee, or slave traders and auction blocks, that were already in the history books when I was in school 40 years ago, do nothing to tell me the state of racism today. And I certainly don't think it helps to indoctrinate a whole new generation to the hate and separation/segregation of generations past when it is an experience that the younger generation cannot relate to because it doesn't exist anymore.

And, it does nothing to inspire hope for the future. Hope springs from positive feedback. Hope is born in a young mind by hearing and seeing role models who have risen above ugliness and become successful. We have black astronauts, many many black politicians in the highest levels of government, there are many black business leaders and even many millionaires, there are highly regarded black academics, and the list goes on and on. These are the stories that should be shouted from the pulpits, not the story of how downtrodden and used and abused they are because of their skin color. Just my opinion, of course.

[Cecil Turner]

The Contra stuff is really jaw dropping.

No it's not. In fact, it's rather mundane (at least in terms of historical insurgency ops). And it's risible to pretend it was engineered by the CIA (as opposed to the Contras taking advantage of an arms smuggling operation), or that the Contras' goal was other than money. That it became part of urban folklore is even sillier. (And we can thank righteous men like Rev Wright for that, eh?)

The CIA did use known miscreants for their covert ops (there's a shocker, eh?) . . . and it did protect them on occasion. The rest of that nonsense is just that.

[SG]

Look,
It is you that is on the slim reed. If you cant understand why the Tuskegee experiment could cause a black man who lived through that time to distrust our system it is hard to imaging us ever agreeing.

[GMax]

I did not really see "separatist",

You really are not very well informed. Have you been to the church's website and read up on its Afrocentric focus? Have you seen the authors cited there as well and read anything of their works?

Go take a peek instead of haranging us based on your ignorance of the place and your need to feel guilty about something or anything.

[SG]

I agree Jane.
AND
Things are getting better with time as our kids are "getting it" better that our parents did.
People with the old way of thinking..... are getting older....

[SG]

Lighten up Gmax....
You make a decent point. I did not visit the site. It is a good idea.

I offered an opposing view to what was being expressed here. I think discussion helps both sides of an issue.

[Rick Ballard]

BHO welded his wagon to a race baiter who made a fine living preaching enough hate to fill the coffers. It was BHO's choice to go to Chicago to make his grab for the brass ring. He had no ties whatsoever to the area.

He had no reason to go to that particular church. There is no reason why, if he did in fact disagree with the race baiter, to stay in that church. Aside from the fact that it's a nice springboard for a pol of course.

He's been prominent in the area for years and could have eased out if he lacked the backbone to stand up and walk out. Instead he stayed and exposed his children to that garbage - guaranteeing that another generation was poisoned.

America kept her word with the blood of a half million soldiers on the battlefields of the Civil War.

If this pathetic hustler was 10% of the man that he's being billed as, he might recognize that we're spilling our son's and brother's and uncle's and young father's blood to give others the opportunity to try and establish some sort of freedom from tyranny in distant lands today.

But he's not. Not 10% and not 1%. He's just another hustler out for a buck or power. He definitely picked the right town and the right church for that but Chicago style corruption just isn't scalable to a national level.

Not as scalable as Arkansas corruption, at any rate.

[GMax]

SG

Shall we add you your total comments on the thread to virtually anyone else? Pound for pound, you have been shoveling it out pretty good. When someone call you on your little crusade, you then want someone to lighten up.

I am happy to discuss, debate and disagree. I am not so willing to get a lecture from a guilt filled lib who is uninformed.

[Jane]

Things are getting better with time as our kids are "getting it" better that our parents did.

Oh please. Things are getting better in spite of the Reverend Wrights of this world whose self interest is harmed by any "getting better" at all.

Imagine growing up believing the drivel that man spouts. You would probably never have the pleasure of loving your country, ala Madame Obama. The whole thing is one big sham. And the Trinity Church biggest legacy will be assuring one of its parishioners don't become president.

[SG]

G,
I think I have been respectful to others and open to new ideas and opinions. I said "lighten up" because your tone seemed personal.

[Jane]

Ugh "DOESN"T become president.

[Sue]

Juan Williams, on Fox this morning, said he attends a black church with a black pastor and he has never heard that type of sermon from his preacher. He is a liberal. He was appalled. He claimed if his pastor had said anything like that, he would have walked out. I don't think you will find many churches, black or white, where the minister dry humps to prove a point during his sermon. It isn't only the words, though hearing a minister of God saying he rode us dirty was kind of...weird...for lack of a better term, watching him demonstrate for the congregation, knowing children were in attendance, and watching the congregation cheer him on, is just unbelievable to me. That type of behavior is not acceptable in the house of the Lord. And to hear him curse, using the lord's name in vain and saying sh*t, during a sermon, is not going to sit well with average Americans.

[Cecil Turner]

If you cant understand why the Tuskegee experiment could cause . . .

It's not the experiment (which is admittedly regrettable), it's the propaganda which has spread around it. If you accept that the idea was to watch a bunch of black men suffer for the hell of it, then yeah, I'd see your point. If you understand just a bit more about the subject, you'd figure out that there was a perfectly legitimate interest in seeing whether non-treatment was killing people (especially since the funding had been withdrawn for public health programs that would've provided treatment, and these guys weren't getting any, anyway); or giving 'em mercury and seeing which killed 'em first. The study was deeply flawed (and generally bad science), but the fact that the Tuskegee Institute signed on in the first place ought to be a pretty good clue that the study was not some sort of early dabbling by Mengele.

Here's a pretty good summary of the events. Note (which you'd have a hard time finding at Wiki) the involvement of black medical professionals, the fact that the treatment "hindered" after the draft orders was still the old regimen (not yet penicillin), and that the AMA was supporting the study into the late '60's. Trying to project current guidelines on consent and experimental ethics (some of which grew out of the uproar surrounding the study) in the 1930's is inappropriate. Demagoguing the event--or using it as justification for hate speech--is irresponsible.

[GMax]

Let try a mirror experiment here and see how much understanding a liberal is willing to countenance.

Lets say that that David Duke is on a rant. He knows from documented cases that many white firemen and policemen with high test scores have been bypassed to give the position that they are in line for and have worked hard for, to a person with lower scores less experience for one reason. The color of the melatone in their skin.

He goes off on Black America and claims that its their fault and all of their bitching and moaning that has caused this travesty to be heard. Instead of greed and power, its more of a a loose shoes and lazy rant. I could get more graphic but you get it. Match it up with Rev Wright rhetoric, so it will need to be pretty offensive.

Its the movement from the specific to the general where this arguement falls down. The specifics he cites as factually, will indeed be factually. Probably even egregious if the demagogue does his homework correctly. But to generalize to an entire race bad motives and intentions is beyond the pale. Its racist and you would not hesitate to condemn it, probably in much stronger terms that we have condemned Rev Wright.

Tell me where I am wrong.

[SG]

If you ignore history and perspective you are totally right.

[GMax]

Whose history? The one you read on Wiki?

Whose perspective? A liberal in search of something to feel guilty about?

Racists are racists. The do come in all colors, despite what your AA Studies professor tried to tell you.

[sbw]

It ought to be easy. As Moynihan said, you are entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.

Step two is that history is to learn from, not to be held hostage to.

Wright doesn't understand. Obama doesn't understand.

[SG]

After the speech, I trulyI hope more of you understand a bit more of what i was trying to convey...... context.
Barack addressed these issues in a far more eloquent fashion than i did, but it was similar in message.

Good vibes to all...