Where Is The "Reprehensible Representation" Bracket?

Via Glenn, the glimmer of a possible new Slate bracket comes to mind.

The Gay Patriot wonders who is worse, Eliot Spitzer or Larry Craig?

Mike Rappaport wonders about Bill Clinton and Eliot Spitzer.

So, when will Slate put up the interactive bracket of reprehensible representatives?  Other nominees could include Mark Foley and David Vitter; for folks willing to go back in time, the WaPo prepped for the Clinton impeachment with a summary of 21 Congressional sex scandals from 1974 to 1994.  John Dean ranges from 1850 to 2001 and extends the WaPo list by adding Ted Kennedy (1969), Newt Gingrich, Bob Livingstone, and Gary Condit.

Since Spitzer is a governor it only seems fair to add New Jersey's Jim McGreevey to the list, and I'm sure other names deserve a spot there.  Hmm, Clarence Thomas - can't say it wasn't a notable scandal, whatever "it" was.  And I see that Gary Hart has gone AWOL from these lists - what sort of monkey business is that?  OK, he was out of the Senate by then - don't interrupt my nostalgia binge.

Well, let me not duck the specific questions before the house:

Spitzer v. Craig:  C'mon, Craig pled to a misdmeanor; Spitzer is facing several possible felony counts and was disguising cash payments to a criminal enterprise.  Spitzer, easily.

Spitzer v. Clinton:  Tricky.  If Clinton's dreadful misbehavior is limited to Monica/sexual harrassment/perjury, I'll say Spitzer was worse, but he is racking up points based on his years of hyper-aggressive law enforcement, including busting some prostitution rings and working for a no sex-tours law.  Hypocrisy counts!

But if you evaluate the full Clinton life story and believe that he raped Juanita Broaddrick, then Clinton advances.

Glancing at the Dean list as the likely field of nominees, who might emerge as a winner?  Tough to pick against Ted Kennedy, who left a woman to die in order to duck a drunk driving charge.  But Democrats love him! 

And Arthur Brown, shot by a jealous mistress in 1906, makes a great and reprehensible story.  Maybe we should form a Veterans Committee...

MORE:  This is the last time I ever want to see Spitzer.

Comments

[MayBee]

Jane- good news. The prosecutor's office says there is no deal with them in exchange for him stepping down.

[boris]

If Clinton's dreadful misbehavior is limited to Monica/sexual harrassment/perjury, I'll say Spitzer was worse, but he is racking up points based on his years of hyper-aggressive law enforcement, including busting some prostitution rings and working for a no sex-tours law. Hypocrisy counts!

IMO lying under oath in a sex harrassment trial is worse than hypocrisy. Common use of the term includes saying Clarence Thomas is a hypocrite because he opposes AA when he probably benefited from it. Meanwhile whites who oppose white privilege when they probably benefited from it are properly praised.

Just think as a concept it has been hopelessly degraded by misuse.

[boris]

OTOH the selective enforcment and possible protection or blackmail smells like corruption under color of law. That's worse than hypocrisy or BJ's cover up lie.

[Jane]

Jane- good news. The prosecutor's office says there is no deal with them in exchange for him stepping down.

That is good news. We've now seen Eliot frog-marched from the governor's mansion - now let the indictments begin.

IMO lying under oath in a sex harrassment trial is worse than hypocrisy.

I'm not sure I agree altho it may be just the passage of time. Clinton attempted to take away one person's cause of action with a lie, Spitzer's hypocrisy put how many people out of business, and took away the resources and freedom of how many more.

And for me, both of these incidents are complicated by the fact that both perps are lawyers. They both had more power than the average perp and they both used it in the furtherance of their self interest.

[Ben]

This situation makes me think of poor Bob Taft from Ohio. He took a couple free golf games, and then plead guilty to misdemeanor charges. However, he crucified by the left as a typical corrupt republican.

Now, a democrat governor has done much worse and his crime is a just a crime about sex, no big deal.

[BumperStickerist]

One argument against this being "just a sex case" is that Spitzer selectively prosecuted the competitors of his provider of choice.

-

[boris]

Spitzer's hypocrisy put how many people out of business ...

Seems like you are using the term as a catch-all. Agenda driven over-zealous scalp taking trophy hunting prosecutions are technically not "hypocrisy".

Prosecuting those prostitutes while seeing these prostitutes ... okay but don't agree that the hypocrisy is the social problem with that situation.

[Jane]

Agenda driven over-zealous scalp taking trophy hunting prosecutions are technically not "hypocrisy".

You are probably right

[Great Banana]

I think we should stay away from the "hypocrisy" craze.

Hypocrisy is the only sin according to leftists, and can really only be applied to conservatives - i.e., they only care about people committing immoral acts (adultury, homosexual acts, etc.) if the person so caught is a conservative, and double points if you can prove that conservative ever said anything in support of marriage or against adultry.

If someone goes around saying that they are against murder, and then murders someone, I care more about the fact that they committed murder than that they are a hypocrite. Moreover, it does not make the message against murder wrong just b/c one of the messengers turned out to be a hypocrite.

I've been seeing a lot of conservative pundits talking more about the hypocrisy than anything else in this case. That troubles me, b/c we are basically starting to accept the leftist position that the only true crime - or the most important crime - is hypocrisy.

In reality, it is not the hypocrisy. He is someone who was regularly breaking the law, even when he was the chief law enforcement officer of the state and then as the executive of the state. Also, he was engaging in immoral behavior. Whether or not this contrasts with past statements or public positions he made or took should be the least of the issues, not the most of the issues.

I know the urge to hit liberals with the same kinds of arguments they throw at us is strong, but we should resist it b/c it legitimizes their arguments, which are not at all legitimate.

Liberals' arguments tend to go like this - because elected republican A argued against gay marriage, and elected republican A has just been found out to have engaged in homosexual acts, A is a hypocrite and therefore the argument against gay marriage is discredited. We should refrian from using the same sort of false reasoning.

In other words, whether or not Spitzer prosecuted prostitution rings in the past, or made strong statements against prostitution in the past, his conduct is still wrong. Therefore, his hypocrisy is irrelevant and also has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not prostitution should or should not be legal.

[davod]

Hypocrisy is not the issue. Which brothels he decided to prosecute, and how he made the decision is. It is also pretty strange that no one brought this up during his prosecutions of the other brothels.

[sylvia]

Yes hard to figure out who is worse. I guess they are all bad because all of them engage in dehumanizing women (men for Craig). Perhaps an affair that showed real friendship and affection is somewhat forgiveable. Say for instance if the rumors on McCain and the lobbyist were true, that might be something that seems harmless, even refreshing, in comparison. But these guys are representing half of their constituents - women, and whether it's a personal or public matter, to treat women with such callous disregard in their own lives means to me they are not fit for office.

[boris]

Therefore, his hypocrisy is irrelevant ...

But fun. It certainly adds zing to the gloat.

[sylvia]

I suppose Spitz thinks he is better because he is paying top dollar for his hookers, so he thinks it's a fair exchange. I don't know, just to play devil's advocate, maybe he has a point. If you were a single girl in your 20's, of average means, what would be your price to sleep with Spitz? $5,000? $10,000? I don't find him that unattractive - who knows I might have started cracking at around $20,000. I don't know if I'd have to wait for 1 milliom like Demi Moore did with Bob Redford. What's more crazy to me is that some guy wants to spend that kind of money on most likely some bimbo college dropout/stripper, whom if he actually spoke to for a few hours he would probably run away from boredom.

[Uncle BigBad]

Larry Flynt said some time ago that he had a list of about 26 politicians guilty of sexual hypocrisy (in other words, Republicans), and he intends to make the names public when it will do the most damage.

Shouldn't the RNC by trying to find out who these names are and pre-empt Flynt????

[Cecil Turner]

That's worse than hypocrisy or BJ's cover up lie.

Okay, but BJ's cover-up lie wasn't the main event. The bigger issue was that he was suborning perjury in others (and coordinating a pack of liars' lies):

LEWINSKY: ... if somebody said to him, "Is Monica lying under oath," he would say yes. But when he on his own thinks about it, he doesn't think about it in those terms, Okay?

TRIPP: Probably.

LEWINSKY: Okay? He thinks of it as, "We're being safe. We're being smart." Okay? "We're being smart, we're being safe, it's good for everybody." ...

The claims that Monica came up with the talking points all by herself beggars belief. And inherent in providing the "smart" version is a threat: if she tells a different story, she'll be the only one who does, and open to a perjury charge (as eventually happened to Julie Hiatt Steele for the same thing in the opposite direction). This is an abuse of power that absolutely merited removal from office, if it'd been proven (and far worse than anything Spitzer did). The lack of any provable direct connection between Clinton or Jordan (and Monica's implausible insistence she wrote it unaided and unprompted) was Clinton's only salvation.

[clarice]

Remember JJ counseling Clinton when he had a mistress he was paying off with charitable funds? Politics--it's funnier than anything we could possible dream up. (Except for VIMH Hit, or PUK, of course.)

[ben]

Sylvia
"I don't find him that unattractive - who knows I might have started cracking at around $20,000."

That's $20,000 an hour right? We want to keep a high standard for cracking.....

[boris]

This is an abuse of power that absolutely merited removal ... and far worse than anything Spitzer did ...

If the worst Sptzian abuse of power was the apparent selective enforcement, okay granted. The degree of over-zealous scalps and trophies hints of unscrupled personal destruction on a scale comparable to BJs.

[Judith]

John F. Kennedy to add to the list

[PMII]

Clinton did it to protect himself after the fact and destroying people seemed to be the best solution, while Spitzer seemed to enjoy just destroying people.

[TexasIsHeaven]

"It's like Siegelman in Alabama. Target the person, not the crime, and you'll find something. There's not a person reading this who, if targeted closely enough, couldn't end up in jail.

I'm not condoning what he did or making excuses. But the justice system is supposed to investigate crimes, not people. Rove and the neocons are turning the system upside down and using the system to target people."

This is a quote from a person posting on DU.

I just wonder where these people were when Fitz and friends were going all out to destroy Scooter Libby, Karl Rove, VP Cheney and anyone else they could glom on to.

"Rove and the neocons" - that is priceless.

How these people can function in the real world is beyond me. Because they sure as hell are not in touch with any kind of reality.

[clarice]

C'mon, even in retirement the bald genius controls the strings of everything.

[PeterUK]

Yes forget hypocrisy,call it what it is sleaze.

[Other Tom]

I'd like to ask those who want to maintain that Spitzer's hypocrisy is irrelevant, "irrelevant to what?" Perhaps it's irrelevant to the question whether he should be prosecuted, but it's certainly not irrelevant to our assessment of his character, or to our delight in seeing him brought low.

[PeterUK]

"I don't find him that unattractive - who knows I might have started cracking at around $20,000."

Yes but would you have worn the gimp suit?

[PeterUK]

OT,
Come up with the pictures and you can have a field day.

[boris]

Rove and the neocons are turning the system upside down and using the system to target people

So "heard that too" was Rove's way of destroying poor Val and intrepid Joe. GMAFB

OT, I'm okay with hypocrisy as a character flaw, it's hypocrisy-crime I am not a fan of. It just seems that the concept has been warped FUBAR by postmodern dimorats.

[ben]

"It's like Siegelman in Alabama. Target the person, not the crime, and you'll find something. There's not a person reading this who, if targeted closely enough, couldn't end up in jail."

What B.S., I am willing to bet you can target everyone in this blog and you won't find anyone trafficking in $5500 dollars an hour hookers.

And Siegelman is guilty as hell, the Rove persecution red herring has been thoroughly debunked...you are watching too much CBS.

[TexasIsHeaven]

LOL Clarice - you are so right on - as you always are.

When the news first broke about Spitzer the first person that came to mind was Mike Nifong. I know Rush mentioned him today also.

I remember PUK telling me to get my beak up out of the dirt - things weren't always just one way - goodness and truth does win sometimes.

This is one of those times.

[clarice]

Thnx,Texas..

[Sue]

There's not a person reading this who, if targeted closely enough, couldn't end up in jail

Horse hockey. Unless it was a setup, targeting me would be boring...and no way I'd wind up in jail. I can't even remember the last time I jaywalked.

[Crank]

I think the Mayor of Detroit should qualify, no? Not every sex scandal involves a murdered stripper, after all.

[clarice]

In the SDNY (Fitz/Spitzer et al) after work the game was to see who could come up with the most imaginative way to indict a public figure for something. There are plenty of old things lying about the books and a few laws as to which intent is ireelevant that an aggressive, amoral prosecutor like Spitzer can ruin anyone he chooses to ruin.
But the number of people who'd say Spitzer was unfairly targeted seems limited to the terminally insane.

[Cecil Turner]

The degree of over-zealous scalps and trophies hints of unscrupled personal destruction . . .

Okay, good point. I'd still be inclined to give the nod to Clinton, based on the greater powers of the Presidency (and concommitant greater scope in the perversion of justice) . . . but will concede that it's impossible to know at this point.

I am willing to bet you can target everyone in this blog and you won't find anyone trafficking in $5500 dollars an hour hookers.

Yeah, but do any of 'em want to, and just can't afford it? Oops, just got a mind ray from the Master to get off this line of thinking. Errr, never mind.

[ben]

"Yeah, but do any of 'em want to..."

Probably most of us curious about what you get for $5500 an hour, but curiosity is not a crime....

[anduril]

Steve Sailer notes that the new Guv's wife is Another Michelle.

[Pofarmer]

Good lord. Made the mistake of looking at Firedoglake on this. What are those people, 15?

One commenter asked "Why did the bank inform the IRS and not Spitzer about the questionable transfers?"

Really? This is what reality based is about?

[clarice]

Go back and tell fdl the truth--Rove has ever bank officer in America on his payroll.

[Topsecretk9]

Posted by: Pofarmer | March 12, 2008 at 10:32 PM

Oh Pofarmer, FDL? It's stupidity on a level I can not even explain. It's mystifying.

[Other Tom]

I love the priceless footage of Mrs. Spitzer bolting from the limo as it arrives at their apartment following his public debasement.

Why all this palaver about whether we should feel good about this? Of course we should! The man is a loathsome scumbag, a bully and a fraud, and he has been thoroughly exposed and terminally disgraced. What's not to love?

[Sue]

Really? This is what reality based is about?

Yeah. I wasn't sure what year the laws were created, but Andy McCarthy at NRO says it was 1970. And used most by the Clinton administration in the 90s to locate organized crime and drug money. Just as the Patriot Act is an updated version of the same laws used during the 90s against organized crime and drug trafficers. And no one cared. They are screeching all over pharleftistan about Bush's Patriot Act getting Spitzer. As if.

[Sue]

It's like these people just woke up one day and noticed that a republican was in office and started hyperventilating over laws that have been on the books since forever. It was okay to jail US citizens under vague conspiracy laws while Clinton was president. Actually, they don't even know it was happening. I'm sure they would be surprised to find out how many people went to prison on conspiracy charges.

[TexasIsHeaven]

"Good lord. Made the mistake of looking at Firedoglake on this. What are those people, 15?"

Pofarmer - excellent point!

And that is exactly what I was thinking when I posted the earlier quote from the DU site. My fear is some of these people are older than 15 years of age.

I don't spend a lot of time on those kinds of websites but I do check them out every once in a while just to get an idea of what the leftist loons are saying.

The thing that really scares me when I see those kind of comments - these people live in the same country as the rest of us. Some of them were probably born here. And try as I might - it's hard for me to understand that kind of thinking.

People like Nifong and Spitzer were a threat to everyone because their arrogance and self righeousness knew no bounds. They didn't care who they destroyed - they have no sense of decency, no standard of right or wrong.

[Topsecretk9]

Sue

Clinton didn't pay much attention to the Chinese bank accounts!

It's like these people just woke up one day and noticed that a republican was in office and started hyperventilating over laws that have been on the books since forever.

I don't know if you've noticed, but the left has been dragging out and dusting off all kinds of obscure "acts" and what not trying so hard to pin the Unitary ExcutiveChimpyMcBurton crime syndicate with no luck. It's an irony I like to point out now that they are pooh poohing it in Spritzer's case (pay no mind that Spitzer utilized these obscure acts too, to form new creative legal "theories" to shakedown anyone not a progressive)

But yeah, your larger point is taken. Zombies ate their brains prior to 2001? That says a LOT actually.

Meanwhile, Here is a little
comic relief via ACE

[Topsecretk9]

Also, I'll never miss an opportunity to shove down the left's throat, who are just all a twitter that the banks noticed massive sketchy bank activity and reported it and then, THEN!!! when the IRS learned it was just prostitution they didn't walk away! (As Jane "rape Gurney Joe" Hamsher suggests), that they set up a dedicated search engine to comb through the DC madame's phone records because they were certain Dick Cheney's name was in them!

But - the LEFT does NOT care about prostitution and private matters, mind you!

Google "palfrey" and "cheney" - here's just a taste

7/10/07 Update: Confirmation of Cheney's number appearing on the "List"-should be known very soon...all of Ms. Palfrey's phone number logs are now online. Of course we'll all be disappointed if the ole boy doesn't show up on the list. But that doesn't mean he wasn't there- it just means he didn't make an appointment from his own phone. Many clients call directly from hotel rooms.

On 5:15 PM 6/27/07 Update-from a VERY reliable source...and friend emailed this:

Yes, I have 3 confirmations, 1 from Pentagon, 2 from CIA that (Dick) Cheney was a client.

Cheney and possibly up to 3 GOP presidential candidates are on the list, or "a list" of clients. There were more than one escort service in those days operating in DC among the VIP community.

Here's the search engine that was a Cheney BUST!

Empty, FDL, KOS diarists et al were ALL over that Cheney prostitution hunt.

[clarice]

HEH--TS never forgets anything and even better always knows how to retrieve it. She's the best. Niters.

[Topsecretk9]

OtherTom

I thought I would make your day even better

Olbermann’s Cheese Slides Off the Plate » By Larry Johnson on March 12, 2008 at 9:25 PM in Current Affairs | 15 Comments In August of 2006 I praised Keith Olbermann as the 21st Century’s version of Edward R. Murrow. As a result, Ed Schultz banned me from his radio program because I dared praise Keith. Sadly, fame and acclaim have maimed Keith’s brain, and he has become just another partisan hack. Taylor Marsh has the details.

Don’t watch MSNBC. Boycott that cable news outlet. If you need news, watch the BBC. They at least report real news with a modicum of balance. Olbermann either does not realize he has become a joke or he does not give a shit. Either way, Keith is not worth a minute of your time. Same for his sponsors.

he promised not to appear on MSNBC except for Olbermann if asked, not no Olby.

OH REJOICE!

[Great Banana]

I'd like to ask those who want to maintain that Spitzer's hypocrisy is irrelevant, "irrelevant to what?" Perhaps it's irrelevant to the question whether he should be prosecuted, but it's certainly not irrelevant to our assessment of his character, or to our delight in seeing him brought low.

Hypocrisy is irrelevant to whether what he did was illegal or immoral. It is irrelevant to whether he should be prosecuted. It is irrelevant to whether he should have resigned as governor.

My point is that I have seen way to many conservatives glom on to hypocrisy as if it is the worst thing about this. Hypocrisy isn't even in the top 10.

Let me put it another way. If he had not prosecuted any prostitution rings in the past, or made statements about same, would we be willing to give him a pass on this?

What if he was on record as stating he thought prostitution should be legal. Would we then give him a pass?

What if he and his wife came forward and said they had an agreement in their marriage that he was allowed to use prostitutes? Would we give him a pass?

The reason I caution against the over-hype of the hypocrisy charge is that it is irrelevant to the real issues and our (conservatives) focusing on hypocrisy legitimizes the "hypocrisy argument" use by the left as the only true sin. Which is absurd.

I hate it when the left tries to delegitimize an argument simply b/c someone who has made the argument in the past turns out to be a hypocrite. And, I don't think we should be using the same non-rational arguments. Would we not want Spitzer to resign if he was not a hypocrite but engaged in the same behavior?

When someone does something immoral, unethical or illegal, I want them held accountable for doing something immoral, unethical or illegal. Whether or not they are also a hypocrite for doing something immoral, unethical or immoral is a nice bit of trivia, but hardly important.

And, frankly, almost everyone who engages in unethical, immoral, or illegal behavior is a hypocrite. After all, who goes around saying - "I believe in unethical, illegal and immoral behavior and support it." Most people state the opposite.