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March 16, 2008

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kim

'How Long Has This Been Goin' On'.
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clarice

I said this on another thread..in response to Brazile's assertion today that Wright's comments are mild compared to what is said in many Black churches.

This is going to hurt him badly in the middle--all those sweet heartlanders trying to exorcise racism in their hearts --ti find out they are being jived..that all those interracial powwows were being done with a wink and a not by those who need to find racism and grievance everywhere..

This is a seminal moment for the Dem party --not just phony baloney Barak.

Barbar

Obama is indeed highlighting his ability to bridge racial and religious differences, which strongly suggests that he differs quite a bit from Wright. But somehow this is something to be held against him!

I'm supposed to believe that if Obama were NOT running a campaign based on bridging racial and religious differences, then the Wright comments wouldn't be a big deal? Bwahahaha.

clarice

**TO find out**

**wink and a noD***

clarice

Barbar--if he were not running as transcendent whatever crazypants divisive stuff Wright was spouting would have little effect on Obama's chances.

GMax

all those interracial powwows were being done with a wink and a not by those who need to find racism and grievance everywhere..

A light went off for me when you wrote or rather when I read what you wrote above.

This kinda explains the affinity for the Palestinians too. Both groups are using exactly the same tactics. Say radically different and diametrically opposed things, to different groups. Count on the press to never notice or if they do notice to just shrug and "MoveOn". So the affinity may be just the admiration of seeing some of Marx's tenets used to such great effect.

MayBee

This is going to hurt him badly in the middle--all those sweet heartlanders trying to exorcise racism in their hearts --ti find out they are being jived..

Oh heavens. That is so true. Have you blogged that yet?

GMax

Does it seem like the Paulbots have found a home with the Obama feverites and respond to criticism of the their new candidate just like they did with their last candidate? Or is it something I ate?

SteveMG

Obama is indeed highlighting his ability to bridge racial and religious differences, which strongly suggests that he differs quite a bit from Wright.

And the evidence for this is where? Suggestions don't suffice.

Show us the way.

boris

It seems that as with the BJ meltdown it is Rebublicans and conservatives who are again somehow to blame for BHO's sudden problems.

The timing and size of this splash is coming from the MSM, not Republicans. If there is a political agency at work influencing the MSM my suggestion would be the Clintons.

kim

GM, I still entertain the suspicion that Paulbots are Deaniacs, who've now been shuttled over to poison Hillary.
=================

Barbar

On one hand, you have what Obama says, and on the other hand you have what Wright says. The two contradict.

If you were really worried about whether or not Obama agrees with Wright, the fact that Obama explicitly disagrees with Wright would reassure you, or at least be a point in Obama's favor. Instead, you say the contradiction makes it a bigger problem for Obama. Funny that.

Let me offer a theory that does a better job explaining reactions. You are mainly interested in undercutting Obama's support; justice is not a matter of revealing what Obama truly believes, but in reducing Obama's popularity to an appropriate (i.e. lower) level. Obama has boosted his support with a transcendent unity message, so it is only fair game to reduce his support by linking him to a divisive message. It doesn't actually matter which is truly reflective of his beliefs.

This of course further suggests that although we could pretend to have a rational discussion on the topic, this is essentially impossible.

clarice

I haven't but I will MayBee.

Rick Ballard

Kim,

They're shapeshifters - one moment a Deaniac, the next a Ronulan, the next an Obamaton. All right out of the prog hive.

Boris,

Yep. It's the Republican's fault that the Clinton's are forced to use the race bat on poor BHO. No one is going to rewind to SC and Bubba's donnning of hood and robes until they stuffed him in a closet. No one is going to do any deconstruction of Rendell's remarks or delve too deeply into what drove Ferraro to pour a little gas on the fire.

The best bet at the moment might be to engage in some speculation as to the amount of money the Clinton's are hiding from sight. Rezko bought BHO - who has been buying Red Witch through hiring Bubba to blabber or funneling dough into his Presidential triplewide library?

SteveMG

On one hand, you have what Obama says, and on the other hand you have what Wright says. The two contradict.

No, among other questions, we have contradictions in what Obama says.

He claims that until recently he was not aware of the inflammatory statements by Wright?

Do you believe that?

Second, why has Wright stayed with Obama? If the two have fundamentally different views of race relations, of America, of America's role in the world, why would Wright (Wright, not Obama) continue to associate spiritually and politically with someone with views that he contemptuously sees as "ignorant Negroes"?

Obama now says that America is a good and great nation. Wright clearly disagrees.

Why would Wright continue to associate with such a "Negro" (using his vernacular)?

You may wish that this will go away; but it won't. Just as it wouldn't had it been a Republican nominee with a long, close relationship with someone on the far radical right.

MayBee

On many political shows this week, I heard people defending Wright by bringing up Paul. I've got to think of who it was....
Anyway, he said that Wright could get away with what he said about 9/11 because Ron Paul, a Republican Presidential Candidate!, had said some of the same things.
I don't see it, because Ron Paul has been essentially marginalized and I don't think the pundit meant that Obama should only have that same level of support from real voters.

Rick Ballard

"On one hand, you have what Obama says, and on the other hand you have what Wright says. The two contradict."

Yet you must admit that twenty years of sitting in the pews, being married by, having your daughters baptized by and filling the collection plate of Hate Whitey Wright indicates a certain shallowness of contradiction.

He was quite willing to expose his daughters to Wright's poison every Sunday for their entire lives.

A man who will allow his daughters to be poisoned with that filth every week gets no "points" from me.

ben

Barbar
"the fact that Obama explicitly disagrees with Wright would reassure you, or at least be a point in Obama's favor"

Are you serious? What else can he say? Agreeing would be political suicide!! A point in Obama's favor??? Get real....

The question is, why should anyone believe he disagrees??? He was a member there for years, this guy is supposedly his close friend and someone who shaped his views? Why should we believe that Wright says anything different to Obama in private than he says in public?

If you support Obama thats fine, but the theory that he deserves credit for saying he disagrees with Wright is ludicrous...these guys are peas from a pod...they just can't admit it and still win.

SteveMG

He was quite willing to expose his daughters to Wright's poison every Sunday for their entire lives.

This is where the opportunistic argument fails.

If one is solely (or predominantly) attending a Church to improve one's status or political position in that community - and therefore not interested in or concerned with the ideology being taught - why bring your children?

Unless you're really a man on the make.

"'Tis the greatest treason; to do the right deed for the wrong reason."

Not good for Obama. Or the country.

The fascinating aspect in this is that if Obama could show where he stood up to Wright, where he questioned if not denounced the "white man is the devil" view, he'd sweep into the White House.

McCain wouldn't have a chance.


Jane

Say radically different and diametrically opposed things, to different groups.

That was Bill Clinton's motto, and tactic, and it worked really well for him. I remember watching him in '92 saying something in MA in the morning and in S.C. in the afternoon that were diametrically opposed. I blinked. I watched the news. No one said a word. I thought it was me, until I realized that was the plan.

"On one hand, you have what Obama says, and on the other hand you have what Wright says. The two contradict."

Well we could easily sort it all out by looking at BO's record, if he had one. For example he says he wants to work across the aisle, but his record shows he doesn't, and McCain does. He says he wants to get rid of earmarks, and then gives a million bucks to his wife's employer who around the same time gets a huge - and I mean HUGE raise.

So I'm not completely positive that I can believe what he says. But hey, keep hope alive and all that.

Paul Zrimsek

To me, this is one of the two issues which raise the Obama-Wright connection beyond the level of mere guilt by association (the other being the question of how many radicals this good gray liberal will bring into power with him): Unless Obama is planning to simply dismiss the views of all these people he's been so close to, then whatever racial reconciliation he has in mind for America will have to be one that's satisfactory to Rev. Wright and his flock. You wouldn't need to be a particularly Republican-leaning independent to shudder at the thought.

ben

"On one hand, you have what Obama says, and on the other hand you have what Wright says. The two contradict."

Every court case in America starts that way, yes. And then they present the evidence.

kim

It is difficult to reason with someone so fundamentally dissonant as you, Barbar. Is it the hair, or the speech?
=======================

kim

Well, actually, we know by 'reason with' you mean 'uncritically accept'. Sometimes, transcendance is its own reward. Enjoy.
===================

centralcal

Let's not forget that Obama has more than just his Pastor for a problem. There is also his friendships/associations with people like Ayers and his wife. There are the statements made (up until she was muzzled) by his own wife, Michelle. There is his financial dealings with Rezco.

Obama has a lot of problems that may be very troubling to those much ballyhooed swing and independent voters, who supposedly determine elections.

The Left can defend. But, ultimately, it is the muddlers, middle-of-the-roaders that are gonna have to buy Obama's lame excuses and contradictions.

GMax

Look this should be quite simple. If John McCain had been attending some civic group where a David Duke lookalike soundalike had been going on and on about white power and how the poor white are being taken advantage of to the benefit of people of color et al ad nauseum, it would most certainly not be enough for him to say "I just disagree on a few matters", and "HEY the guy helped build a children playground in the newly named White Peoples Park."

As a matter clarity, a total and absolute condemnation would not be enough. The damage would be done and he would be tagged with whatever could be found that the Duke soundlike said. And so should Obama. But hey if Illinois wants a divider and hater to represent them, in 4 years they can send him back to Washington. Its the other end of a wide street in DC, and as close as Obama is ever to likely get to the White House.

ben

I think many people who aren't Obamagroupies are going to take a second look at why Obama won't wear a lapel pin with the flag of his country. Before many were willing to dismiss it as a whim or quirk, nothing sinister, but now it fits in really well with his pastor screaming "Goddamm America". Could be an unfortunate coincidence, or it could be that if he wore one it would difficult to face his pastor on Sunday.

SteveMG

It seems to me that to make this more than a sort of a political Macguffin, one must show how these views affected the public policy stances of Obama's.

I think he's being disingenous about his knowledge of these stances and views by Rev. Wright.

But for it to be more than just opportunism you have to show how the views influence his public performance.

My guess is that this will be the ultimate defense by the Obama supporters.

It's not "just words".

Paul

"Let me offer a theory that does a better job explaining reactions."

Yo. Barber. Let me offer an even better theory. Your hero is a damn liar. And you sir, are a dupe.

Porchlight

Could be an unfortunate coincidence, or it could be that if he wore one it would difficult to face his pastor on Sunday.

That is an interesting thought, ben. It hadn't occurred to me that Wright might put active pressure on Obama to stay "authentic" or whatever.

Obama has said that he consults Wright before taking big political steps, implying that he's looking for moral support for a decision he's already more or less made. But what if instead, he's looking for Wright's stamp of approval?

The same might be said of Michelle. I wouldn't be surprised if Obama looks to his wife and pastor to curb his tendency to drift too much into the [white] mainstream. Perhaps this is what Obama means when he says Wright helps him keep his "priorities straight."

kim

'Hope and Change' are the McGuffin to distract you from the naked power grab. Trapping lions in the Scottish Highlands, indeed.
======================

RichatUF

ben-

...or it could be that if he wore one it would difficult to face his pastor on Sunday...

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel

And I thought I noticed a few clips with him wearing one (or at least something, like a WIN button)-like right now on CNN at his Plainfield IN rally.


GMax

Offered without commentary because the graph is near perfection:

The truth hurts. That’s why it must be avoided at all costs.

How can we ever thank the Democratic Party, its two remaining presidential candidates and their campaigns? I don’t know. But if the American people, some of whom can be fooled all the time, all of whom can be fooled part of the time, have noticed what is going on, they may well thank the Democrats in their own way.

Jules Crittenden blogs at Forward Movement.

Jane

Uh oh! The Messiah says he used to talk to Rezko every day until he got indicted, and if those pesky indictments of Rezko turn out to be true, he will revoke their friendship.

Let's pause and marvel at his "Judgment".


(link under my name)

ben

gmax
"If John McCain had been attending some civic group where a David Duke lookalike soundalike...."
Good point!
If McCain had a great great great grandfather who was hanged for belonging to a group of horse thieves the media would be talking about "his family's long standing connection to organized crime".

RichatUF

Here is a local write up with video. He is wearing a lapel pin of some kind, can't really tell what is is (maybe an Indiana flag in the shape of the Hoosier state?). Haven't found any good pictures though and the vid is sort of worthless.

ben

I think its a picture of a puppy...Obama loves puppies.

RichatUF

ben-

"his family's long standing connection to organized crime"

It goes without saying, he is a Republican and his wife's family fortune is from beer...

Tom Maguire

Obama is indeed highlighting his ability to bridge racial and religious differences, which strongly suggests that he differs quite a bit from Wright.

Talk is cheap, actions speak louder than words... your turn.

Maybe Obama just realizes that his message of racial transcendance is more marketable to a white audience. Possible? The idea that he is saying it, therefore we know he believes it is, well, touchingly optimistic.

BarbaraS

Don't sell the media short. They are already asking questions about McCain and Hagee and Parsley. I am not familiar with either of these gentlement so I don't have an opinion. But it is obvious the media is trying to redirect the accusations to another party as usual.

Just think of an Obama win. Would it be like a Hillary win? Remember the Clintons filling the WH and cabinet with trash? Wouldn't you think that Obama would fill them both with others of his ilk? Scary.

Jane

As I understand it Hagee and Parsley attacked the Catholics. That's a little like attacking republicans. No one cares.

Oh how I love Political correctness gone amok.

clarice

More media airbrushing of Abama and his advisers.
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/03/kissing_robert_malley.html>Airbrushing Obama

GMax

Hagee an almost unheard of minister of a church in San Antonio Texas of whom John McCain is not a member and to my knowledge has never even stepped foot into his church. Yet he had to answer questions and even make it clear that he does not agree with some of Hagee's statements in the past. Now why should a smooth talkin con man, get away with not having to do the same only on steroids, because you know the inconvenient facts of adult membership, long standing association, child baptism etc etc certainly argue for a very thorough review?

Sara

Speaking for myself, when I first heard Rev. Wright's diatribes, it struck a knife of fear at my heart. I have worked all of my adult life to do what small part I can to advance race relations. And even as a child, I accompanied my Mother, who was an outspoken advocate for breaking the race barriers in this country. And I remember well when I was in high school, how excited she was after attending the Martin Luther King rally in Washington where he gave his "I have a dream" speech. I still have her letter to me on the eve of my wedding, where she listed the women of history she considered to be the bravest of all women and Coretta Scott King was one of those women.

I truly and honestly thought things were better between whites and blacks in the country. Now, I'm full of doubt and I find the hatred of Wright's rhetoric congers up the old stereotypes and it frightens me with a fear that I haven't felt since the 1960s. Am I alone in this fear? Are others as shocked at the hatred being preached against you as a white man or woman in America? Am I naive and living in some whitebread bubble to have been so unaware of the seething hatred bubbling just below the surface? Do I really want to know?

centralcal

No, Sara, I am not as fearful as you, However, I am concerned -

It troubles me greatly that in many Mosques in the world little children are being taught to hate all who are not Muslim. To hate the "infidel" and that the only solution is "convert or die."

It concerns me that in the United States -- in some churches -- little children are being taught to hate based on race. These children are being "emotionally handicapped" by their parents and loved ones. What a damn shame!

Condoleeza Rice. Colin Powell. Michael Steele. Thomas Sowell. Clarence Thomas. Our newly introduced Col. Allen in Florida. These are the people who they should be looking up to. NOT the sad, pathetic, hateful and hatefilled, such as "Reverend" Wright!

sbw

Sara, you are in charge of your self. Your responsibility to the community is pattern recognition -- to identify behavior and label it for what it is.

To do that you need to cut through those who would undercut your insight and perception, those who would challenge your right to see clearly, those who would dissemble and lie, and those who themselves are wilfully ignorant.

Then, without animosity, you point out that behavior to others, as best you can. I'm sorry, this is how it has always been for generations. There is no special knowledge, no privileged view, no priesthood.

All that is required of you is clear sight, calm conviction, and a sense of humor.

Do not get worked up over white/black, male/female, gay/straight, native/immigrant, or whatever. That is simply noise thrown in your way.

alison

HUFFINGTON POST

Obama's Minister Committed "Treason" but When my Father Said the Same Thing He Was a Republican Hero

Frank Schaeffer, 03.16.2008

When my late father, Religious Right leader Francis Schaeffer, denounced America and called for the violent overthrow of the US government, he was invited to lunch with presidents Ford, Reagan and Bush, Sr.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/obamas-minister-committe_b_91774.html

clarice

alison--I'm calling b.s. on that story. Why not dig up something credible on Schaeffer and get back to us.

Elliott

Trapping lions in the Scottish Highlands, indeed.

Kim, don't forget about the ones in Connecticut. BTW, do you have any rules for the number of equals signs that you put at the end of a post?


Jane

Elliott,

Did you see golf today? Hell of a finish.

Elliott

Yet another display of flawless execution under pressure. Is Tiger as inevitable as Hillary now?

Jane

Ugh,

Bad analogy. But I want to live long enough to see him execute the Grand Slam in one year.

Tom Maguire

It troubles me greatly that in many Mosques in the world little children are being taught to hate all who are not Muslim. To hate the "infidel" and that the only solution is "convert or die."

Well, then, let's turn this into a selling point for Barack - who better to go to these mosques and explain that he, too, knows what it is like to be raised in a church filled with hate?

Or maybe not.

clarice

I want whatever you've been taking TM.

centralcal

Wouldn't Obama be considered even worse than an "infidel?"

I said on another thread, and I meant it: Obama = The Illusionist. He will be whatever you want him to be.

Although, that is seeming to be less certain now. It's Barack's illusions I recall, I really don't know Barack at all.

(Sorry - I used this lyric reference once before here at JOM - many moons ago).

bgates

Don't sell the media short. They are already asking questions about McCain and Hagee and Parsley.
If Obama murdered 5 people on live tv at a campaign rally, the media would start trying to find out how many NVA McCain killed while he was in the navy.
(That's right, he served in the military before he ran for President. You youngsters may not remember, but in the Election of Aught-Four, that was an essential qualification for the office.)

clarice

http://perfunction.typepad.com/perfunction/2008/03/awaken-the-gian.html

Pofarmer

You youngsters may not remember, but in the Election of Aught-Four, that was an essential qualification for the office.)

Isn't it amazing to watch the goalposts just whiz around?

Fat Man

I think that He Who Must Not Be Middle Named, treated his religion as a bedrock belief, at least before the last few days. I offer the following from the NYTimes as proof. I point out that the article is almost a year old, i.e. it well pre-dates the current fuss.

"A Candidate, His Minister and the Search for Faith" by Jodi Kantor in the NYTimes on April 30, 2007:

In an interview in March in his office, ... Mr. Wright recalled his first encounters with Mr. Obama in the late 1980s, when the future senator was organizing Chicago neighborhoods. ...

... Mr. Obama was entranced by Mr. Wright, whose sermons fused analysis of the Bible with outrage at what he saw as the racism of everything from daily life in Chicago to American foreign policy. ...

It was a 1988 sermon called “The Audacity to Hope” that turned Mr. Obama, in his late 20s, from spiritual outsider to enthusiastic churchgoer. ...

In “Dreams From My Father,” Mr. Obama described his teary-eyed reaction to the minister’s words. ...

Mr. Obama was baptized that year, and joining Trinity helped him “embrace the African-American community in a way that was whole and profound,” said Ms. Soetoro, his half sister.

... Services at Trinity were a weekly master class in how to move an audience. When Mr. Obama arrived at Harvard Law School later that year, where he fortified himself with recordings of Mr. Wright’s sermons ...

While Mr. Obama stated his opposition to the Iraq war in conventional terms, Mr. Wright issued a “War on Iraq I.Q. Test,” with questions like, “Which country do you think poses the greatest threat to global peace: Iraq or the U.S.?”

In the 16 years since Mr. Obama returned to Chicago from Harvard, Mr. Wright has presided over his wedding ceremony, baptized his two daughters and dedicated his house, while Mr. Obama has often spoken at Trinity’s panels and debates. Though the Obamas drop in on other congregations, they treat Trinity as their spiritual home, attending services frequently. The church’s Afrocentric focus makes Mr. Obama a figure of particular authenticity there, because he has the African connections so many members have searched for.

rhomp2002

Jane,

On your comment re Clinton and his diametrically different stories, he was not the first that I know of.

When Carter was running in 1976 I was visiting my dad in small town central Ohio. Jimmy came to the area and made two speeches in one day. One was to the executives and he told them he supported them and their positions totally against the unions. That afternoon he spoke to the unions and told them he supported their positions totally against the bosses. Same day, same area. Not one word in the press about it. It was as if they reported only a couple of phrases from each speech that supported each other and missed the whole rest of what Carter said. That plus what I already knew from the Tet Offensive told me all I needed to know about the politicians and about the media. They haven't change in over 30 years that I have been watching, either of them.

Elliott

Mr. Obama was baptized that year

Anyone know where or by whom?

Porchlight

He was baptized by Wright at TUCC, Elliott, according to this MSNBC story:

Obama took the title of his 2006 autobiography, “The Audacity of Hope,” from a sermon by Wright, who baptized him and officiated at his wedding. He has called Wright “a sounding board for me to make sure that I am speaking as truthfully about what I believe as possible.”

I think it's described in The Audacity of Hope as well.

Tom Maguire

Although, that is seeming to be less certain now. It's Barack's illusions I recall, I really don't know Barack at all.

(Sorry - I used this lyric reference once before here at JOM - many moons ago).

But after I steal it it's mine, mine, MINE! Except for that darn Google-cache...

He was baptized by Wright at TUCC, Elliott, according to this MSNBC story:

"Dreams from My Father" has about a chapter on that - Wright was a key part of Obama's self-discovery and conversion (acceptance?) to Christianity (as well as to urban blackness).

Elliott

Thank you both.

In the television appearances I saw, Obama's line was "I disavow the bad stuff I never heard from the minister who officiated at my marriage and baptized my children." The fact that he himself was baptized in adulthood by that minister is not a helpful addition to that line of defense, in my view. Was he trying to leave viewers with the impression that it was his wife's church?

Fat Man

More stuff about HWMNBMN and Pastor Wrong.

"Destiny's Child: [originally "The Radical Roots of Barack Obama"] No candidate since Robert F. Kennedy has sparked as much campaign-trail heat as Barack Obama. But can the one-term senator craft a platform to match his charisma?" by Ben Wallace-Wells at RollingStone.com on 2007-Feb-22:

... And there is the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, a sprawling, profane bear of a preacher, a kind of black ministerial institution, with his own radio shows and guest preaching gigs across the country. Wright takes the pulpit here one Sunday and solemnly, sonorously declares that he will recite ten essential facts about the United States. "Fact number one: We've got more black men in prison than there are in college," he intones. "Fact number two: Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run!" There is thumping applause; Wright has a cadence and power that make Obama sound like John Kerry. Now the reverend begins to preach. "We are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns and the training of professional KILLERS. . . . We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God. . . . We conducted radiation experiments on our own people. . . . We care nothing about human life if the ends justify the means!" The crowd whoops and amens as Wright builds to his climax: "And. And. And! GAWD! Has GOT! To be SICK! OF THIS SHIT!"

This is as openly radical a background as any significant American political figure has ever emerged from, as much Malcolm X as Martin Luther King Jr. Wright is not an incidental figure in Obama's life, or his politics. The senator "affirmed" his Christian faith in this church; he uses Wright as a "sounding board" to "make sure I'm not losing myself in the hype and hoopla." Both the title of Obama's second book, The Audacity of Hope, and the theme for his keynote address at the Democratic National Convention in 2004 come from Wright's sermons. "If you want to understand where Barack gets his feeling and rhetoric from," says the Rev. Jim Wallis, a leader of the religious left, "just look at Jeremiah Wright."

Obama wasn't born into Wright's world. His parents were atheists ... Obama could have picked any church — ... Obama chose Trinity United. He picked Jeremiah Wright. Obama writes in his autobiography that on the day he chose this church, he felt the spirit of black memory and history moving through Wright, and "felt for the first time how that spirit carried within it, nascent, incomplete, the possibility of moving beyond our narrow dreams."

... When you read his autobiography, the surprising thing — for such a measured politician — is the depth of radical feeling that seeps through, the amount of Jeremiah Wright that's packed in there. ...

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