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April 08, 2008

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Danube of Thought

The guy who said Hillary should never be allowed anywhere near the White House knew what he was talking about: he said she was incapable of running anything at all, based on his experience in the health care task force.

Look at how she's running her own campaign. It's a devastating indictment of her leadership, managerial and administrative skills. She actually comes off looking quite remarkably dumb.

Danube of Thought

His name was Brad DeLong.

clarice

Flip on the rotating siren--this is OT but surely a big story-----------------
The Jerusalem Post is publishing this short but tantalizing report which may explain two mysteries:(1) Why have all the parties been so tight-lipped about the Israelis air strike on Syria?(2)What happened to Saddam's WMDs?

An upcoming joint US-Israel report on the September 6 IAF strike on a Syrian facility will claim that former Iraqi president Saddam Hussein transferred weapons of mass destruction to the country, Channel 2 stated Monday.

Furthermore, according to a report leaked to the TV channel, Syria has arrested 10 intelligence officials following the assassination of Hizbullah terror chief Imad Mughniyeh.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1207486215610&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

clarice

[quote]

An upcoming joint US-Israel report on the September 6 IAF strike on a Syrian facility will claim that former Iraqi president Saddam Hussein transferred weapons of mass destruction to the country, Channel 2 stated Monday.

Furthermore, according to a report leaked to the TV channel, Syria has arrested 10 intelligence officials following the assassination of Hizbullah terror chief Imad Mughniyeh.[/quote]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1207486215610&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull>Bombshell

clarice

Let me try one more time--
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1207486215610&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter>Bombshell

DebinNC

HotAir on the upcoming report

This sounds too good to be true, but let's hope.

Danube of Thought

That will, indeed, be a bombshell. And of course it will be ferociously savaged by the left without the slightest examination of whatever facts are presented in support of the claim.

PeterUK

Well,the Israelis bombed something that was important enough to bomb.It certainly wasn't the Syrian National Accordion Academy.Not that there is anything wrong with that.

bgates

A timely off-topic comment, Clarice - I saw this from TM's AP report:

But recent accounts of the episode have omitted key details that suggest there was more truth in the essence of Clinton's tale than her critics, and even her presidential campaign, have acknowledged.

-and immediately thought of the "16 words" story. I don't remember the AP raising the possibility that there was more truth in the essence of Bush's tale than his critics, and even his administration, had acknowledged.

RichatUF

DoT-

...ferociously savaged by the left without the slightest examination of whatever facts are presented...

Sort of like the "Iraq was our ally against al Qeada" line that some of our CIA analysts were saying. Or that "Iraq wasn't tied to al Qeada"-only some of its affiliates and its 2nd highest ranking member.

It would be an interesting bit of theater for the Dems to stop mid-narrative and change it 180 degrees-

Soylent Red

I dunno PUK. I haven seen this man
in quite some time.

What I do know is that if Syria, the logistical and operational base for the extremely media-savvy Hezbollah wasn't saying peep about it, it's because it was in their best interest to keep it quiet.

Mossad has people so far up Assad's tailpipe, I wouldn't be surprised if this were all true. Still I bet it will die a lonely death, as many JPost stories do in the USMSM echo chamber. Doesn't jive with "Bush lied".

But wouldn't it be cool if it gains traction. Icing on the cake would be for an October capturing of OBL.

PeterUK

Soylent,
That would account for the casualties

clarice

I'm tired and went to sleep but this is so significant, if true, I couldn't doze off.
Analysts have been asking for some time why the Syrians made no complaint.And why the US and Israel were keeping so mum.
At the start of the invasion we had satellite shots of truckload after truckload of stuff being moved to Syria.Everyone asssumed at the time it was WMDs...Remember , the Russians were supposed to have aided Saddam in moving this stuff. Saddam had an award ceremony for one of their generals whose name starts with a P and which I've forgotten for the moment. And we shot at a carload of Russians escaping from their Embassy near the border.


clarice

If it is true--besides making hash of "Bush lied"-- we have all the Dems racing over there to kiss Assad's behind and Jay Rockefeller dashing over to Syria just before the invasion to tell the chinless wonder we were on our way.

PeterUK

Clarice,
Whatever it was it had to be significant enough to use bombs.This suggests a solid structure,could be Hezbollah Summer Camp,but since the Syrians are reported to have bulldozed the site,it required covering up.So probably not temporary structures or mud brick buildings and not something that could be left to become a picturesque ruin.
The standard "Wedding Party" cover would seem not to be suitable nor the usual Pallywood production.
Looks like something Assad should not have had,but there have been many weird and wonderful things in the Middle East,Saddam's Superguns,Project Babylon IIRC, for example.
Was there a substantial transport system and power supply nearby?

Brainster

His name was Brad DeLong.

Heheh, don't trust Brad DeLong as far as you can throw him, and he's pretty fat. He banned me from commenting on his blog, after I debunked two of Paul Krugman's columns (both times forcing retractions).

clarice

Not a peep out of Assad. That's what I remember. No running to the UN crying foul. Well, how could he if he was hiding WMDs that Saddam had smuggled there under the nose of the UN's own inspectors?

And not a word from his bosses in Iran. Zip. Nada. Noone knew or care that Syria's sovereignty had been violated.


I didn't expect Israel would crow over it's achievement, but still it's a tiny, blabby place and there was no blabbing.

And we played some role--probably had the Israelis test our anti-Iranian radar stuff for us..and yet no one told the NYT what role we'd played.

No one knew nothing.

Topsecretk9

Rich
It would be an interesting bit of theater for the Dems to stop mid-narrative and change it 180 degrees-

Might be just the thing they need to crawl back out that deep, deep hole they dug for themselves concocting the "Bush Lied" fandango.

I've been thinking that fandango would come back and bite them in the ass hard.

Topsecretk9

And of course it will be ferociously savaged by the left without the slightest examination of whatever facts are presented in support of the claim.

Well of course! It's the Jooos!

clarice

I also seem to remember some of soldiers there had been killed in the bombing--certainly additonal reason to raise a fuss in the UN, and nothing. Nada.

Topsecretk9

Drudge headers:

Link 1 -
[Hill] CLINTON CALLS ON BUSH TO BOYCOTT OLYMPICS OPENING...

Link2-
Not Games...

Sure sounds like a redo of Bill's presidency, doesn't it?

clarice

Sy Hersh has a New Yorker piece on the riad--I can't bear reading all 7 pp but El Baradei said the UN experts had viewed all the satellite pics and denied this was a nuclear facility.
Here's the Times UK version of what happened.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article2461421.ece>Syria

Niters. I have a root canal in the a.m.

MaryW

Topsecret9

I spoke with our son and he has 2 pair of shoes for you. I will have them tomorrow since the shoe store is right around the corner from our house and he needs a new pair now. I bought the spikes last week, but the conference meet is in 2 weeks and he needed a new pair. And I thought golf was expensive.

My email is MaryW130atverizon.net . Just make the usual substitution for at.

I will clean them up a little and mail them the next day

Topsecretk9

MaryW

YOU ARE A SAINT!

Please let me pay you for your expenses...as I said before the arrangement works very well - NOT being brand new and all!

MaryW

No saint. Just a track mom who likes to see the kids run. I will give you his prs so the boys know that they really come from a runner.

Topsecretk9

Well I just emailed you Mary, and I thank you, and your son from the bottom of my heart.

You are a CyberSaint whether you like it or not.

pagar

"Might be just the thing they need to crawl back out that deep, deep hole they dug for themselves concocting the "Bush Lied" fandango."

I see no indication they want to crawl out of that deep, deep hole. IMO they think "Bush Lied" has been their most successful campaign ever.

Roundabout

Well, didn't this thread get hijacked. Back ON TOPIC, one of the ongoing developments of this campaign is that she looks less and less like the "smarted woman in the world".

But, she isn't dead yet. The people who see this as great sport better remember that.

Soylent Red

I didn't expect Israel would crow over it's achievement, but still it's a tiny, blabby place and there was no blabbing.

This is one of the things that puzzles me. If Israel knew it was a WMD storage facility, they would have something. Remember this raid was against Syria, who have been a perennial problem child for Israel since day one.

My amateur assessment is that Israel acted on hard intelligence that the facility had WMD of some sort. They didn't necessarily have to know what it was they were hitting, although that would obviously be useful.

Since El Baradei and the UN delivered the verdict that it wasn't nuclear, my guess is that it might have been bio. That fits with the uncorroborated Curveball intel, and would explain Russian assistance for transportation.

Why the story is coming out now is anybody's guess. Mine is that, if it turns out to get traction, the hateful, hateful Joos will have effectively kneecapped the two pro-Palestinian US Presidential contenders.

M. Simon

I did a piece on the bombing about a week after it happened. Just enough time to get some perspective.

IIRC (I'd have to go back and look and I may if the story gets hot) There were a bunch of North Koreans that made a sudden visit to Syria to discuss crop rotation or some such.

Of course every one involved (I believe the Iranians came to) was saying it was just a normal friendly get together and had nothing to do with any outrageous bombing that they certainly preferred to bury the building and not make any commotion about the Apartheid State in the Community of Dictatorships housed in New York. The attitude being: the less said the better.

BTW I still think the Israelis paid (or other wise suborned) the Russians for a backdoor IFF code to make them invisible on the radars.

Lots of Russian Jews in Israel.

Also note the Iranians recently bought a lot of Russian hardware. The Russians kept saying the radars worked the way they were supposed to. They may be absolutely correct.

Pofarmer

Last numbers I saw, said 85% nationally had insurance(everyone has access to health care). How many that don't are illegal aliens or folks that don't want/need insurance? Here in the Midwest, it's morelike 92% plus. It's kinda like saying that 8 million mortgages are in trouble, knowing that it amounts to less than 1% of all mortgages. It's a dishones argument from the start.

Great Banana

the thing about stories like the pregnant lady, even were it true, is that it does not really address the issue, it calls to emotions without any real analysis of the situation.

As most of us know, we can find just as many horror stories from gov't controlled health care in countries like Canada (where they don't have enough room for deliveries of children at hospitals), the U.K., etc.

What does either one prove? In any system, there are going to be flaws and problems. The question should be, which system is most efficient and provides the best care? Also, at what point do we point to people's individual choices and say they must accept the consequences of their choices?

Unfortunately, I think we on the right have lost this battle b/c the left has already convinced 90% of the people (including republicans) that health care is a "right" that they are entitled to no matter what. Once that was established, it became nearly impossible (or, insurmountable, but I don't want to get into trouble) to hold off some kind of national health care.

Neo

The post bombing analysis pointed out that the facility didn't have enough cooling facilities to be a nuclear power plant or nuclear reactor, but there was a strong belief that the plant was supposed to reprocess the plutonium that the NK's had taken from their facilities.

By exporting the reprocessing, they would then be able to claim that they had "gone peaceful" but at the same time be able to run their "outsourced" reprocessing.

I'm curious just how Saddam's WMD-s (or lack thereof) figure into this now.

clarice

Maybe there were 2 things there..Something from N Korea and something from Iraq. From Iraq I think the possibility is highest of nuclear processing equipment and bio-chem weapons.

It's hard for me to imagine why the Syrians found it necessary to plow over the soil of the facility after the attack unless it was to destroy some kind of evidence.

Tom Maguire

Heheh, don't trust Brad DeLong as far as you can throw him...

Well, like a lot of us he can be a bit touchy, but I have had pretty good dealings with him over the years, mostly.

And for Lord of the Rings fans, he wrote one of the funniest things I have ever read.

MayBee

From the WaPo:
She said her niece had previously been in debt to a local hospital that later sent her a letter informing her that she could only be treated there in the future if she gave them a $100 deposit. At the time she went into debt to that hospital, Casto said, Bechtel was uninsured, though she later obtained health insurance and was insured at the time of her death. [snip]

Casto said her niece, who suffered from preeclampsia during her pregnancy, did not seek care at the first hospital she when she fell ill because she knew she did not have the $100 out-of-pocket she believed she would need to be seen. Instead, she went to O'Bleness Memorial Hospital, where her baby was stillborn. Bechtel was later flown to Columbus and died there. She was 35.

It really is a different story from the one Hillary told. This woman was never denied care, and the $100 and lack of insurance had nothing to do with her pregnancy or death.

It could illustrate the story about debts for uninsured people, but that would involve the much less harrowing pre-pregnancy part.

The ending of Hillary's story was that this death and the way she was treated (which didn't occur) would not have happened had she had insurance. That is certainly not the case.

I don' think insurance in this country is perfect by a long shot. I abhor these anecdotes that seem to imply that with better coverage or universal health care nobody would die.

kim

Obviously it is a right. The right is advertised at every emergency room with a big sign that no one can be turned away for lack of money. And that impulse is from deep in the human heart. La Chaim, and to hell with the money. But look at the mess we've made.
================================

DebinNC

"I abhor these anecdotes that seem to imply that with better coverage or universal health care nobody would die."

Nearly 50% of Expectant Mothers in the UK Were Turned Away from Hospitals

boris

Italiacto!

davod

I wouldn't trust El Baradi as far as I can spit.

davod

WRT to Hillary's example.

Is it a sign of how efficient our health care is that Hillary's staff could not find a legitimate example of someone falling through the cracks?

M. Simon

Clarice,

One good reason to cover a bombed nuke processing plant is to avoid the spread of radioactive material.

For a biohazard you would want to flood the area with disinfectants.

Chemical stuff. Burial again.

The problem with each is the nearby stream.

That would tend to indicate reprocessing. Although a chemical factory might need to be water cooled as well.

Richard Aubrey

I've taken friends, family, and strangers to ERs. Never, never has anybody asked me for financial info, upfront money, or anything else before beginning treatment.
I took a kid who'd gotten into her grandma's heart meds to an ER. She was half an hour into hurling a combination of activated charcoal, some emetic, and grapejuice before anybody came to see me about Blue Cross. I didn't know the people, just being the chauffeur.
This is a nuts story.
In Britain, the standard from admission to ER to treatment is 4 1/2 hours. To make that, the ER people keep the folks in the ambulances until it looks as if they might be able to meet the standard. Then the new arrivals are wheeled in, dead or alive, I suppose.

bmcburney

Tom,

Sorry but I still don't get it. Evidently, the story of a woman and her unborn child who died because she was refused treatment because she didn't have insurance could not pay $100 is true except that the woman was not refused treatment and she actually had insurance and, for all we know, probably had $100. To me, that sounds a lot like the story was completely and utterly untrue.

And I don't see anything in the WaPo story which changes anything.

There may be a "deep well" of stories here but if there were, for example, even one single story like this which had the added benefit of being true I suspect we would have heard about it, at great length, from our reality based friends. The problem is that none of these medical insurance horror stories actually turn out to be more reality based than Hillary's sniper story.

Rick Ballard

"And I don't see anything in the WaPo story which changes anything."

I'm glad I'm not the only one. Perhaps it's the time spent reading lefty blogs which allows one to pick out the subtle nuance between "100% natural fresh bull fertilizer" and "100% natural bull fertilizer"? It takes a better nose and higher dedication than I shall ever have to distinguish betwixt the two.

clarice

Maybe it was the Lost Ark ,M Simon. All I can tell for certain is that the installation seemed to be very important to the Syrians and the Israelis and the Syrians were remarkably quiet about having their space invaded , people killed and expensive looking property destroyed.

DebinNC

"Evidently, the story of a woman and her unborn child who died because she was refused treatment because she didn't have insurance could not pay $100 is true except that the woman was not refused treatment and she actually had insurance and, for all we know, probably had $100. To me, that sounds a lot like the story was completely and utterly untrue."

OT, but that reminded me of a Charleton Heston story related by Powerline yesterday:

In the last chapter of his autobiography Heston tells a story deriving from his appearance in Minnesota on behalf of Grams. In the course of his remarks on behalf of Grams, Heston said: "We have to get back to the values and perceptions of those wise old dead white guys who invented this country." Grams's hapless opponent and her friends in the media tried to create a brouhaha out of the remarks, as Heston recalls, branding him with what he calls "the familiar P.C epithets." Heston had moved on to appear on behalf of another Republican candidate outside Minnesota before the controversy erupted, but he took the time to tape a response:

"Let's see now," I said, "they were wise, they were old, thery're dead, they were white guys, and they invented this country. Which word in that sentence don't you understand?"

cathyf

I think that the story, in its true form, is even more apropos to the question of government-run health care. Ok, here's what (more or less) seems to have happened:

-- In 2002, Ms. Bachtel had need for medical care which she could not afford to pay for. She went to the Holzer Clinic, where they treated her first, and worried about the money later.

-- Some clinic bureaucrat wrote a dunning letter to Ms. Bechtel which left her with the (inaccurate) notion that they would not give her any more medical treatment under any circumstances unless she came up with at least $100 towards her unpaid ($4,000+) bill.

-- When Ms. Bechtel became pregnant, she developed the symptoms of pre-eclampsia. Eclampsia of Pregnancy is a vicious and bizarre condition, which no one knows how to prevent, or how to treat very well. The pregnant woman's blood-pressure-regulating system goes completely haywire, raising her blood pressure to stratospheric levels until first baby and then mother die. The early symptoms are typically a vicious headache and sudden weight gain. For a woman in late pregnancy where there are about a billion different completely benign reasons to feel like crap, this is not necessarily recognizable as something serious.

-- At some point Ms Bechtel felt sick enough that an ambulance was called, and the ambulance took her to O'Bleness Memorial Hospital (the other hospital system in town, not the one where she had the unpaid bill.) There, she miscarried the baby. Then they life-flighted her to a major medical center, where she died 15 days later. This suggests that either she was in full-blown ecclampsia by the time she made it to the hospital, or that she had a stroke -- typically the ecclampsia improves very rapidly (if just as mysteriously as it appeared) once the placenta is delivered.

Ok, so what does this story tell us?

-- In the US, people who need medical care get it, regardless of their ability to pay.

-- When pregnant women get pr-ecclampsia, they may not recognize the seriousness of their symptoms until it is too late. This is for two separate reasons -- one is that it takes knowledge to recognize the symptoms as serious, and the second is that "too late" can be pretty early for this particularly nasty condition.

-- When people get threatening letters from bureaucracies, they may misinterpret what those letters mean. Apparently the Holzer Clinic has a standard opening suggestion for payment plans of $100/month. It seems that Ms Bechtel misinterpreted this as a hard-and-fast requirement, when a more savvy individual would have recognized it as simply asking for payment, and responding "no" would have in no way precluded her from receiving future care from them.

So explain to me how government health care would have made a difference in this case? People are already entitled to care regardless of ability to pay -- does Hillary's plan change that? Will government takeover of the health care system make Ecclampsia of Pregnancy any less dangerous and inexplicable? Will it make people less likely to ignore/deny/misinterpret the seriousness of their symptoms, to tragic results? Does anybody believe that takeover by a government bureaucracy would eliminate bureaucratic letters which confuse people?

clarice

Great post, cf.

Her story also suggests she was not too smart.(1)She completely misread the letter;(2)she ignored the symptoms of a problem every pregnant woman is warned to watch out for. (Yes, I know the symptoms seem fairly benign but they are on every warning list.)

GMax

A story I just found datelined yesterday with McAllen Texas in the byline, compare and contrast, we give free care to folks who are not even citizens!

(CBS) It was 5 a.m. and CBS News national correspondent Byron Pitts is with a woman who is nine months pregnant. She's rushed to a south Texas hospital to undergo a C-section - a $4,700 medical procedure that won't cost her a dime. She qualifies for emergency Medicaid.

She gave birth to a healthy, 8 1/2 pound baby boy - born in America. His Mexican mother gave him an American name: Eliot.

Eliot is one of an estimated 300,000 children of illegal immigrants born in the United States every year, according to the Pew Hispanic Center. They're given instant citizenship because they are born on U.S. soil, which makes it easier for their parents to become U.S. citizens.

That's because those babies can eventually sponsor their parents - when they turn 21 years old.

M. Simon

GMax 5:20PM,

This is costing us a fortune. In 2 or 3 generations they will be true Americans.

I have some Mexican lineage friends. I speak better Spanish than they do and I'm a basic beans and bus tickets guy.

Now it is kind of an underhanded way to become Americans. But the fact that they WANT to be Americans counts for a lot with me. The world can always use more Americans.

We can either make them ourselves (I did my part - my mate did hers - we have 4 kids) or import them. And what is the best way to cull those who want to come? Make it hard, dangerous, and relatively expensive. That way we get the best. People with drive. Which is to some extent genetic.

Plus they are Catholic which makes integration easier. Compare and contrast with Little Islam in Detroit.

GMax

Dont get me wrong, I posted this not to slam illegals. We have a problem with laws we dont enforce but its not a problem for me that folks want to come here, thats a compliment of the highest order.

No the article points up what is obvious, we pay for anyone's care who can not afford to pay for it, even non citizens. Its a joke and a bad one to tell the story Hill did. It is the utmost fantasy. But it does make some unthinking but compassion folks feel like someone is just being hard hearted.

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