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April 06, 2008

Comments

PeterUK

Personally I think this is flattering to Bill Clinton

Pofarmer

Whether the war in Iraq is actually winnable is a separate question.'

Oh good Lord. How dense are these people, anyway??????

Rick Ballard

"How dense are these people, anyway??????"

Generally speaking, I believe they run the gamut from irridium to osmium.

bgates

Now, Pofarmer, it is a separate question, and an unclear one. If you or I asked the question, it would be clear, and the answer would clearly be 'yes', but that's only because we would ask the question in reference to the US. Given the heightened objectivity of the press, I can't tell if he means to ask whether the war is winnable for the US, Iran, Sadr, al Qaeda....

SteveMG

Love that Rich column.

How dare Obama/Clinton misrepresent McCain!

Then, being Frank Rich, he pulls this whopper: The disastrous six-day battle of Basra that ended last week — a mini-Tet that belied the “success” of the surge

Of course, (1) Tet was a failure for the Vietcong and North Vietnamese; and (2) Basra had nothing to do with the "surge" since the surge took place in areas outside of the southern part of the country.

Other than that, one of Rich's better columns.

bgates

Steve - and the surge has been pretty successful. He did get "six-day battle" right.

Pofarmer

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't done much research. But, I've seen it spun that because Maliki decided to quit kicking the Mahdi Armi's ass that it was some kind of a "defeat" for the new Iraqi govt. In what context can that be considered correct???

Pofarmer

Basra had nothing to do with the "surge"

Basra had to do with the Brit's sitting around and letting it be overrun with militia's.

PeterUK

Not much of a war is it though? In fact if it were not for the MSM and politicians nobody would know.Just the basic "Hundred Years War" we all remember fondly.
Sorry but you just can't let that tit BO be president he is giving total war a bad name.

PeterUK

"Basra had to do with the Brit's sitting around and letting it be overrun with militia's."

That is because the British government wouldn't let them shoot anybody.

SteveMG

That is because the British government wouldn't let them shoot anybody.

Spot on. Michael Totten has repeatedly written about the courage and toughness of the British soldiers.

They had their hands tied by the government.

Pofarmer

Hey PUK

I was intending to indict the leadership rather than the boots on the ground.

PeterUK

It was obvious that it was all going pear shaped when we were treated to the Magical Moments of Topsy, Flopsy, Mop and Bucket in Iran.Oh yes and the iPod.Pretty clear that orders not to fire on the Iranians came from the top.
I have a nasty suspicion that the withdrawal in Basra started then.

Pofarmer

Well shucks Peter, it's just a war. No use getting everyone all riled up by, ya know, fighting or something

bgates

Fantastic poll just showed up in the sidebar on whether Basra marks a turning point:

Yes, this will either make or break the current government (and America's involvement)
No, this is just a bump and the current situation will continue for years with no major improvement

-so did we lose the war this past week, or will we lose the war several years from now?

What kind of person doesn't feel a bit of shame framing a question like that?

Soylent Red

Basra had nothing to do with the "surge" since the surge took place in areas outside of the southern part of the country.

Caught that SteveMG. And let's not forget that it further has nothing to do with the surge because the surge was focused on exploiting the Sunni Awakening, not quelling Shia militias.

I wonder sometimes how these people can play so fast and loose with facts.

TCO

That McCain is thinking of some hypothetical where the troops are in Iraq or Germany in similar positions as the Cold War is scant comfort. We are dealing with the here and now. And it is not a border gaurding experience. It is a failed state.

Sue

TCO,

Why don't you people buckle down and give it a shot these last months? See if it will work with the full backing of the American public. Instead of just Bush and Barney. Bush isn't pulling out. Work on electing a candidate of your choice for the surrender ceremonies.

TCO

I don't like any of the three of them. The bail out loving Republicans disgust me. So does the "won't admit he was wrong President". We went in to find WMD and hang Saddam. We dithered forever before swinging him, but both are done now. Let's leave. It's not surrender. It's not our country. Oh...and how come we haven't executed anyone at Gitmo? The whole thing is pathetic. Don't spend your time worrying about ceremonies. Worry about efficient use of force.

narciso

If Bear Stearns had collapsed and taken a few other banks with it; what would you say then. Actually there was a trial by the parties that he wronged; (the Kurdish and Shia majority)and he was properly hung. The
reality we come to; is that Iraqis as such
are not so much the problem; even the Sunnis
in Dulaimi/Anbar as the Saudis; like the Ghamdi, Quahtani, Utaibi Ilkwan clans, Egyptians like Rabia, Al Masri, Jordanian like Al Banna, Zarquawi, butchers like Al Tunissi; many of those have gone to ground
in Iraq. not to mention Iranian Quds force
members like Jaafari, Suleimani, & other
associates of Ahmadinejad. Clearly Muqtada
is their real proxy; that is why their is
a revolt against his gangsterism; after this
supposed victory of his. We haven't executed
anyone at Gitmo, because the courts, specially the Supremes have backstopped every measure we have had at a military tribunal; a practice we've followed for nearly two hundred years now. Through ex parte Merryman, Millgan, Quirin, Eisentrager
.We've also extracted every bit of information we could out of KSM,Zubeydah,Al Nashiri, et al; before we turned him over to the tribunals. Any more trolling mis
direction. I swear if one September 10th, they would have found Mohammed Atta with a picture of a 757 headed toward the Capitol building; these people would say, what's the fuss.

M. Simon

Democratic Density is obvious.

Depleted Uranium.

M. Simon

TCO,

Uh, little detail you seem to have forgotten: WE didn't swing him. The Iraqi government did after a proper trial.

Justice takes time.

M. Simon

TCO,

Here are some words:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

Just which one's do you object to?

kim

Whoa, are you THE TCO? Of climate blog fame? If he is, he has interesting and iconoclastic opinions. Contentiousness, be his name. You sound like an ersatz one, though. Let's see your stuff.

It is not a failed state, it is a newborn state.
=====================================

kim

Don't forget, TCO, that despite the lying Joe Wilson's claims, the CIA told Bush that Saddam had WMD. So did Saddam, to hold the Iranians at bay. So did most of the Senate and House, because they believed him. Actually, so did Joe Wilson, who, in an LATimes op-ed of 2/6/03, argued that we should not invade Iraq because Saddam would use his biological and chemical WMD on our troops. You could look it up. Or you could stick to what you know.

Simon, if this is THE TCO, I think he was in Rickover's Navy. On science stuff, he is worth listening to. And certainly fun to argue with.
==========

kim

Here's a clue, TCO. Reread narciso until you can understand and discuss. The easy part is where he called you a troll.
=================================

Sue

TCO,

You are a study in contradictions.

bgates

Reread narciso until you can understand and discuss.
Be a little easier if his browser didn't have the ee cummingsizer extension.

Seriously, dude - quit hitting enter at the end of each line. Or every 4th line. Or whatever you're doing to format your posts all weird.

M. Simon

Kim,

Nukes are a tight group even when they disagree. There was one at LGF who just hated Jews and esp. Zionists (I'm a twofer) and he always called me shipmate.

Next time he shows up mention me. Maybe you can pin him 'til I get back.

BTW I thought the Climate Audit TCO was a jerk and only moderately good at science. Too consumed by his prejudices. Steve was right to ban him. The man lacks any social graces what so ever. Hard to do in a group of uber geeks.

M. Simon

bgates,

Thanks for that on narciso. I had left an intemperate message for him a few days ago because the formatting screwed my understanding.

Now I just skip his comments. Too hard to parse.

Aaron

For those who think we should have taken down Sadr earlier rather than later, I think tackling the problems in Iraq one at a time was the wiser choice. First sort out the Jihadis, then sort out the Shia militia. Trying to do both at once could have backfired greatly. Divide and conquer.

glasater

M. Simon--Narcisco is essential reading. Have gotten the best book reading tips evah:-)

kim

What g said.
========

kim

Except it's narciso.
============

narciso

I resent that remark.

kim

Style critics, bah. Bathe in the word.
=======================

Sue

I resent that remark.

Clean. Concise. Boring. Half the fun is trying to figure out the connections.

PeterUK

If Iraq is a failed state then that is the best reason for staying there.
Tow major objective achieved Saddam & Sons out of business and an enhanced Jihadi/virgin interface.

PeterUK

The end of the beginning Maliki done good!

narciso

The Tikriti mob that ruled Iraq was a failed state. It relied to much on the
Abu Nasr subtribe for support. The Army
was 'topheavy' with officers from the Jibbur, Dulaimi & Ubeidi troops. The humanitarian oil for food money went to bribes for Pasqua, Arafat, and every other two-bit oligarchs; along with the cavernous
palaces and other self aggrandizing
structures. It was the apotheosis of the Sunni desire to disempower the Shia and the Kurds; which began at least in the modern era with Abdelaram Ghailani, and proceeded to his "Vichy son " Rashid and the Baathists from Aref onward. Syria, the nation next door, which is busting at the seams with Iraqi exiles, byproduct of serving as a rear base for Baathists and a pipeline of jihadists, has a similar problem. Their outward seeming sectarian appearance, is belied by the reliance on the Alawites, a splinter sect of the Shia; at all levels of Govt. This has meant increasing greater contacts with Sunnis like the Salafi members of the Muslim Brotherhood; and the Shia which correspond
with Hezbollah. Bin Laden, interestingly enough had a Alawite mother; along with his
hard working Hadramaut roots. Our brief embrace of the Syrian security service gave
us the Maher Arar affair; which tended to stick to us, rather spectacularly. Was that oblique enough for you.

Rick Ballard

Talisman Gate agrees that Maliki dun gud.

The assertion of a government monopoly on the use of deadly force in conflict resolution is very difficult to spin as a "bad" thing - unless you're allied with the Thugee. Now it appears that even the Thugee are somewhat confused about the "next step".

Gee, that's a shame.

DebinNC

from NRO: Bad to Worse for Moqtada Sadr?

Elliott

Enigmatic yet intriguing and informative as usual, narciso.

BTW, I was wondering whether you'd gotten a chance to check out the Sandbaggers yet. Also, what do you think of Len Deighton?

Rick Ballard

"Was that oblique enough for you."

Almost. There wasn't a reference to propaganda links within pop culture. I've been getting a real kick out of your counter agitprop pointers for some time - they're the diference between A++ and A+.

I didn't know that Bin Ladin's mom was an Alawite. Or much of anything else that you mentioned aside from the Sunnis hiding out in Syria.

narciso

Haven't gotten around to the Sand baggers. I'm told the Queen & Country graphic novels
crib liberally from them. Deighton, is good
because he's kind of working class Bond. In
Ipcress, Funeral, et al. Although he had a bad reaction to Goldwaterism by the looks of the Billion Dollar. The Samson novels, are quite good. Actually I thought it was pretty straight forward.

Sue

You know what, democrats are more stupid than I thought. They could play this hand to their advantage, if they thought about it long enough. There is a 50/50 chance that a democrat will be president next year. How great would it be for democrats if they could claim Bush's victory in Iraq? If they worked just a little, or really, did nothing much at all, they could almost be victorious when it works out in Iraq. Under a democratic president. They aren't smart enought to do it though.

I say almost because only nutroots would buy it. Those of us who know better would not give them credit.

GMax

I am not a middle eastern expert by any means but I did have an iranian friend in college as well as a Lebanese christian roommate. The Alawites similar to the Druse are not really look on with favor by either major Muslim group. They also similar to the Druse are pretty closed mouthed about their beliefs.

Syria being run by secular sunnis in an Alawite majority nation, is an accident looking for a corner intersection. It will eventually happen, and importing all of those crooks and trouble makers from all over the region, will eventually be seen as crazy.

Elliott

That's an interesting thought about TBDB. It hadn't occurred to me before.

I enjoyed the "Palmer" (shame they didn't just leave him unnamed in the films) and Samson series and I think that anyone engaged in counter-insurgency would profit from taking a look at SS-GB.

Sue

GMax,

I am not a middle eastern expert by any means but I did have an iranian friend in college as well as a Lebanese christian roommate.

Yeah, but did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night?

TCO

Dude: That's my PROBLEM that we went in and dicked the pooch for years before having the Iraqis swing Saddam. No fucking plan! You guys need to get out of the refusal to admit Bush is an idiot mode. Rummie was right. Roll in. Rock. Kick ass. Roll out. Let others deal with the rubble. It's actually better for everyone.

TCO

Dudes: I GOT NO PROBLEM with rolling in because of the suspected WMDs. Ok. They're aren't any now. And Saddam is dead. So we're done. The problem is that you all are confounding the real effects with the arguments of mistakes. We are literally staying in iraq so that Bush doesn't have to admit that he made a mistake. Well, I've got more sac than him. I wanted to go in. And I was mistaken. So now we leave.

See kids, this is NOT about running down, jumping over the fence and fucking a cow. This is about WALKING down, jumping over a fence and fucking ALL the cows.

Sue

Hmmm...

...and that's all I've got to say about that.

TCO

Let Bear Sterns fail. PURGE the rottenness. PURGE it, purge it, purge it. You socialist loving "Republicans" make me sick.

TCO

kim: If it is incapable of existing except with 130,000 of the finest troops with all kinds of backing from the best AF and Navy, than it is not a self-functioning state. It can't even maintain control of it's territory on it's own. But who knows. Maybe if we leave the Shia will buttfuck the Sunnis. They could use it a little. Maybe a Khan like pyramid of skulls will settle the situation. Always remember what Heinlein said in STARSHIP TROOPERS about violence settling things.

TCO

"If Iraq is a failed state then that is the best reason for staying there."

So we now have a mission to occupy every failed state? Even if that was the feeling, we could do a lot better by just feeding different sides and letting them kill each other. Like in the 80s when we helped the iraqis and iranians kill each other. Kissinger had it right with hoping that each would lose. Getting the USSR and Chinese pissy with each other and the Chinese with the VN was cool too.

Think smart. Make then other mother fucker die for his country. not you for yours.

narciso

A Khan like pyramid of skulls; one can't
help recall that scene in the Killing Fields where Dith Pran comes across such
a sight. A situation we were assured by luminaries like Sydney Schamberg; couldn't happen with the Americans gone. Some of the
greatest butchery, Michael Yon has been privy to, in Baquba; the slaying of Tucker
and Menchaca by Abu Tunissi is another example. To cite Heinlein in such a disingenous sense; really is galling. The
context is important, as Heinlein, wrote the book, partially as a rebuke to Einstein's convenient pacifism in the 50s. The quote comes in the context of the discussion that "Violence doesn't solve anything". The instructor, say, tell that to the city fathers of Carthage 146 BC, Nagasaki & Hiroshima (1945) and Dresden (1944).Or as the old line goes; "war hasn't
ended anything but slavery, Nazism, etc. Of course, the line can go the other way, as the residents of Nanking, Auschwitz, Halabja
& Phnomh Penh can tell you. Just citing a few examples. To use a more recent example, those who followed the Taliban, into Kabul, and cheered the demolition of the Bamiyan
statues; did the same, to a particular portion of the NY skylines. To surrender to
the blows of the Wahhabi Ilkwan cadres and
the Iranian Quds force, is not likely to win
you a respite. It only ensures you will be eaten last, by the crocodile.

kim

As I said, TCO, Iraq is a baby state. It needs nurturing, not sexual exploitation.

Yep, you now sound like the genuine article. Stick around, you'll be stimulated here, as if you needed it.
============================

ben

"So we now have a mission to occupy every failed state?"

No, but we have a mission to see things through in Iraq. Cut and run is not a policy, it's surrender to terrorism. We saw what happens when terrorists get control of a poor country like Afghanistan, why would you not think it would be a lot worse if they controlled Iraq's oil resources, and Iraq became a threat (again) to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.

kim

Bamiyan, oh narciso, Bamiyan. I've got a copy of Arnold Toynbee's 'Between Oxus and Jumna'. I had a chance to go to Bamiyan back in the day and preferred the hippy ghetto of Kabul. Oh, bitter are the regrets.
=====================

kim

Another one I missed was Angkor Wat pre Pol Pot. I was in Krung Thep in 1970. What a mispent youth.
==============================

TCO

ben: it's picking and choosing. Not cutting and running. It's economy of force. It's using your noggin. And we have no obligation to stay. We liberated them from Saddam. If they can't deal with things now, than they deseerve what they get.

Kim: I been here before. Used to read this thing a lot. Until I'd learned enough to see how people justified Libby lying. Well I'm for the honor concept. And I don't care if it's a guy on my side or not.

TCO

narcisoo: you little poor writing moron. don't you understand that the effect of a pyramid of skulls and the destruction of Carthage are the same? think, motherfucker, think.

I got a quote for you, maggot: "the guerilla swims in the people like a fish". So what's the solution to guerillas? DRAIN THE SWAMP. Genocide or displacement. It works just daisy...

kim

You failed to notice, TCO, that Maliki suppressed Sadr with his own forces, and minimal help from us.

Bush and his White House, the Gang that Couldn't Shoot Joe Wilson Straight, were the last to figure out the Plame Game. You didn't stick around long enough to see how the unethical Fitzgerald, and the perjuring Russert, reamed Libby.

narciso is unique. You may be bright, but I wonder about you if you can't appreciate him. Utterly incandescently brilliant, unlike you who is a fluttering candle. One that doesn't go out in a strong wind, mind you, but feeble in comparison. Set a spell, and learn from the master.
=========================

kim

Actually, the folks around here might enjoy straightening you out about Libby. Why do you think he lied? Because Eckenrode said so? Show me Eckenrode's testimony.
==============================

TCO

IO'm too old to learn. And I'm all for Maliki fucking the rest of the claiments and taking the throne. Let's let him get on with the job. Go Shia early is my version of the go ugly early of the bar days.

kim

Naw, Chalabi is the Master of the Bazaar.
=========================

TCO

kim: pay attention. What I said is that people here think it's ok if he lied. And guess who backed me up. The Washington Times. Because the beleive in true conservative values. Not in pole smoking every K street lobbyist who has an earmark while mainting control of Congress while slectibn Harriet Meiers for SC. Jeezuz fucking chrits.

kim

Actually, I wondered as early as Thanksgiving 2003, why we didn't break up Iraq into its three constituent parts, Sunni Arab, Shia Arab, and Sunni Kurd. I was told by an old man, once a geopolitical genius, but well gone in multi-infarct dementia, that the Israelis didn't want three new nations to deal with in the Middle East. It still might be a good idea, to make three of them, and it still may be where they end up. The fact is now, a unified Iraq is more likely to withstand the depredations of Persia and its Mediterranean ambitions, and all three parties understand that well. So does the King of the Sauds.
===================================

kim

Libby didn't lie. Fitz made it up. Check it out, you really do not know what you are talking about. You have drunk Joe Wilson's yellow cake encrusted cup of Kool-Aid.
==================================

TCO

Nobody "understands" shit. Because no one knows what will happen. That said, there are still people who are more stupid and misguided than others. Prime spot for the ninnies worrying about tactical day to day issues when the bigger problem is the long temr.one. Were I a faction in Iraq, I would just wait the US out. It's not their country.

kim

Oh, now you want to be down on Bush. You are going to miss him when he's gone. He's engaged a desperate enemy, radical Islam, and won the early rounds. He's encouraged international trade, and presided over the greatest economic expansion of all time. You've failed critically, as far as politics goes.
==========================

TCO

I haven't drunk shit. Libby was contradicted by all knids of people in his own administration. Look for truth Kim. Not for what confirms what you want to hear. Libby stinks. He's a pussy.

kim

Sistani and Chalabi are waiting things out. And quietly and justly pulling the strings of influence.
================================

TCO

Bush is a LIBERAL! Fucking prescription drugs?! And he's a lazy adminstrator and thinker. He's a mess.

kim

You've got to be a little more specific about how Libby was contradicted within this administration. Are you counting the CIA? Are you counting the State Department? Are you counting the Department of Justice? Be careful, you are on thin ice, and don't know enough to lie down and crawl.
================================

kim

OK, you finally got me. I am not happy that Bush helped hook the alta kaka on drugs with tax money.
======================

kim

You've absorbed the standard MSM line about Bush. He is highly engaged in issues, he works hard, and like any successful executive, capable of delegating to expertise. I repeat, you will miss him when he is gone, and history will be very kind to him. Historians actually kind of sneer at partisan interpretations, and you've swallowed it, hook, line, and sinker. You stinker.

Do you guys see why TCO is fun?
===========================

TCO

kim, he was contradicted by people within the white house on his knowledge of Plame. this has notrhing to do with yellow cake. It has to do with telling the truth. He wanted to spare himself an embarressment so he lied to investigators. Bad move. And WRONG. And tom maguire eventually came to see it that way also.

TCO

Bush is not a detail guy. He's not even a strategy guy. He didn't even have a clear plan on Iraq when we went in. Rummie thought we would boogie. Others thought we would nation build. He never really had war gamed the eventualities in his mind. He just lurched down a path.

narciso

So you want to nuke Baghdad;preferably"from orbit,just to make sure" TCO; Riyadh as
well, throw in Tehran for good measure. Of course, you can plug in Mithridates of Pontus and the Jugurthan wars; they caused almost as much trouble to Rome; without devastating the country.

Somehow I don't think so. Armitage lied and was protected by Fitzgerald' precisely to protect an oil rich post Communist oligarchy
in the Caspian Sea. This wasn't a new practice, Fitzie bumbled the debriefing of Hezbollah/AQ/ CIA triple agent Ali Mohammed the first time around. They finally caught up to him after Nairobi and Dar es Salaam; he seems to be the consensus for the more pertinent parts of the December '98 PDB
(Mustafa Atef, Sayf al Adel, Sheik Rahman's network) all of which was winnowed down by
the Aug 6, PDB

Armitage being Powell's deputy at State, would know best about the INR memo; as opposed to Grenier, who didn't handle the analytical side of the ledger, from his perch at the counter terror section. I know the idea that a CIA man would lie to law enforcement; surprises you too. Hope Kroll offers a good severance package, Bob, when they hang rendition around your neck. Grossman, as we now know has a whole set of conflict of interests surrounding his testimony; you can take Barbara Honegger wannabe; Sibel Edmonds or that passage in the "Nuclear Jihadists" I referenced before.

kim

I know, Tom's wrong though. What was the contradiction, precisely? By people who had sweet deals with Fitz? Lay it out, if you can.

Everybody has a plan until they get hit. Iraq has been more difficult than expected. But it is incontrovertible that Saddam was a heavy supporter of Islamic terrorists. Oil for Food was not working, something had to be done.

Look, I was in the twenty percent who believed we shouldn't go in. I believed UN sanctions were doing the job. I've been convinced since that Saddam was plotting evil for us. There is no Christian like a convert, and I've come to realize that Bush did the right thing. It will be obvious to our descendents.
=============================

kim

Heh, heh, it looks like narciso has pre-empted you on the 'contradicted within his own administration'. Lay it out. What else you got?
==============================

TCO

narciso: Put down the doobie and stop putting words in my mouth. Kim thinks your smart?

TCO

Kim: I'm talking about within the White House. Stop and think. Seriously. Armitage is State. State is an agency. It's not the office of the Presidency. It's not the White House. REad up on the communications director and various others who contradicted Libby. Tom Maguire can school you a bit. Or go back and read all the postings. I read every single one for 2 years.

kim

Lay it out. Who contradicted Libby within the White House. For the record. Without a sweet deal from Fitzgerald.

And you sadly mistake narciso. Nothing fucked up about him. Don't make me start in on you.
======================================

kim

I'm thinking. All those I mentioned were technically within Bush's administration, even Plame. Joe Wilson, the coward and blackguard, was technically acting for Bush, too. That is what is so pitiful about him.
=========================

TCO

Do you agree that State and the White House are two different parts of the executive? Do you follow that?

Have you read all the old postings here? Do I really need to go back and give you the people IN THE WHITe HOUSE who contradicted Libby on his knowledge of Wilson's wife?

TCO

The administration is not the White House. God you are a moron. Take an M-1 rifle and bash the butt of it against your head until you smarten up. Or until that little cleaning case thingie drops out of the bottom.

kim

You are starting to rave, well, I mean, continuing to rave. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and expand your class of those who contradicted him to include all of the administration. Now who, within the White House, without an insidious deal with Fitz, contradicted Libby. You've bluffed until you're blue in the face. Spit it out.
============================

TCO

If I do will you give me satisfaction?

kim

What are you a Memphis fan?
==================

ben

TCO loves to say stop and think and be smart while writing trash. Quite a contradiction....

"ben: it's picking and choosing. Not cutting and running."

No TCO, surrendering in Iraq is cutting and running, you can talk yourself blue in the face and windowdress it a thousand ways but that is what it is. In real life you can't pick and choose your enemies and you can't choose which terrorists to fight. And terrorists can in 2 hours cost the world's economy more than any housing crisis or war in Iraq will ever cost, so this idea that we either spend money on security or on the economy is unmitigated demagoguery.

Re-Libby....you are way off base here too. Grasping at thin hackneyed straws "Libby lied". It was established there was no conspiracy to out Plane, Plane was not outed by anyone in the White House. Plane's husband was (an is) a compulsive liar and a Democratic hack or am I repeating myself. Those are facts, the rest is fiction.

TCO

Well...I googled a bunch of crap, which answers your question, but since you refuse to say that you will give satisfaction, I won't provide it.

Ben: you're just tossing out terms. you have no lcue about where to pick the place of battle. Are we in Somalia right now? Stop salivating like Pavlov's hound and think.

TCO

And Ben: stop putting words in my mouth. I don't claim a conspiracy to out Plame. I claim that Libby perjured himself. I think it was likely because he didn't want to admit an indiscretion. That is no excuse. He still lied. Read up on the Fleisher testimony.

kim

Fleischer had a sweet deal. And the perjury charge hung on Eckenrode's non testimony and Russert's perjury which contradicted evidence in the record. You are mistaken.
========================================

ben

"And Ben: stop putting words in my mouth"

Sorry TCO, no free lunch here...you say the dumb things you get called. And your posts are a veritable smorgasbord of convoluted logic combined with innacurate statements.

Libby perjured himself on what exactly? Read Fleisher's testimony? Why not read Libby's testimony? If nobody outed Plane and there was no conspiracy, what was Libby's "indiscretion"?

"Are we in Somalia right now? Stop salivating like Pavlov's hound and think."

Here we go with the "think again", a sad refuge for those that are intellectually dishonest. As a matter of fact yes, we do operate in Somalia, we have launched cruise missile attacks against terrorists there and we do patrol the coast. You can bet there is a lot of surveillance going on in Somalia and a lot of other places.

PeterUK

TCO
"So we now have a mission to occupy every failed state? "

Your logic just fell off the barstool,when did Iraq become all?
You have an obligation to Iraq because you invaded it and destroyed the regime.You may not care about world opinion,but there are some big players out there watching what what America does.The Democrats left some very nasty people thinking your country was a pushover,run now and it will be the beginning of the end.

PeterUK

Mr Maguire,where on earth did you get TCO from,a buy it now on eBay? The cove sounds like Sheriff J.W.Pepper on crack.

PeterUK

You don't need to bother Mr Maguire, I found out

Soylent Red

"So we now have a mission to occupy every failed state? "

Naw. Just fix the ones we intentionally broke that happen to sit over the world's oil supply.

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Wilson/Plame