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April 16, 2008


Patrick R. Sullivan

The really big difference between W and Clinton is that W's daddy handed Clinton an economy that was almost two years along in expansion. Bill, on the other hand, left W with a recession.


Let's see. When Clinton left office farm land was at $450 an acre locally. Now it's at $3000. Obviously, the Clinton years were great.



Is that just in your neighborhod, or generally? Is it because of the boom in planting for ethanol production?


Is that just in your neighborhod, or generally?

No. And yes.

Is it because of the boom in planting for ethanol production?


Danube of Thought

The man has seen his "legacy" crumble before his very eyes, aided by the stewardship of his lovely wife.


It's lots higher in other places Apalled. A lot of it has been caused by outside investors buying farmland, including hunters buying what would have been considered junk ground at premium prices. Lot's of money sloshing around in the economy to spend.

Now it is being fueled by high crop prices generally, as well. There is considerable debate on the causes and effects.


Clinton hasn't got a legacy to stand on.

Buford Gooch

Farm ground always ends up being priced based on the income it will produce. There are lots of blips in the pricing, but it always comes back to that.


I don't see this as an attack on the young, though that is the HuffPo spin too. Isn't there something to the idea that the young are especially prone to suppose that they're part of a movement headed by a leader that will transform the country and the world? Age and experience make the main thrust of the Obama campaign harder to swallow.


The author of that Oxblog post, Taylor Owen, once posted something about how the evil Bush administration was sending young, inexperienced, hopelessly naive people to the Green Zone. I pointed out that Taylor had a resume (pardon me, curriculum vitae) online which included his high school. That blog used to be interesting when Belton and Adesnik wrote, but it became all smug left blather when they gave it over to Owen. He's the Pinch Sulzberger of Oxblog.


wow. bgates, you really are a bitter old man...


While I wouldn't go as far as bgates Mr. Owen does seem a little to the left. Even his fellow bloggers have seen fit to correct him.


Okay, I'm here for the debate. It's Charlie Gibson - who if I recall was the best host of any debate so far.

Senator Obama gives an opening statement. Once again he is wearing a purple tie. He says it is typical for people not to be able to afford gas. He's gonna transform frustration and bring on real change. Lousy statement.

Hillary is wearing green,she regrets that she was not a founding father. Government is not solving problems so we need to make it bigger, give health care, do for education what her husband didn't. Blah blah blah blah blah.


Wow, there are rules tonight.

Obama struck by decency of Pennsylvanians, but their frustration is real. Real change.

Clinton promise of America, now expanded to include Barack and me , is in danger. We can continue promise though. Look at records and plans.


We will quote from the constitution tonite, so the candidates so unfamiliar with it, know what it is.

? Mario Cuomo suggests that they pledge that the other take the running mate. That of course is not in the constitution and I obviously overvalued Charlie Gibson. So will you do it.



No American Flag Lapel pin tonight...Obama knows his audience.


Gibson: You appeal to different constituencies. Cuomo says fight to end, but pledge to make the other your running mate and agree to take 2nd place if you lose.

Obama: Extraordinary journey. Think highly of Clinton's record, premature to talk about running mates cause trying to determine nominee. We'll be united in August. No choice if want to deliver on promises we've made and founders made.

Economy bad, people losing homes. McCain wants to have 3rd Bush term. Our supporters would support the other candidate.

Clinton: I'll do what I can to make sure one of us takes office in January. Need to unify after nominee chosen. I'll go everywhere to make the case. 15 month campaign tour has allowed me to see damage of Bush years. Gold star mothers, mothers whose children didn't have health insurance. Bigger difference between McCain than between the two of us.


Charlie Gibson corrects me, but I sorta don't think that's what the founding fathers wanted.

Hillary blames Bush. Hillary bashes McCain.

And we are on to the clinging part. Do you understand that some people find that patronizing.

Obama says he mangled the statement. Now he will clarify. Everyone is poor. Life is awful. There are bread lines and gas lines. Most can't afford to feed their children. It's governments fault. And that's when people concentrate on their religion and concentrate on their guns (he's not helping himself) and religion and guns take away from getting jobs. huh?

Hillary is the granddaughter of a 6 day a week factory worker from Scranton. She doesn't think people cling to religion when Washington isn't listening. Nor do they cling to guns. People don't live their lives like that.

She almost sounds normal.


Gibson: Do you understand people think that was patronizing and heartfelt?

Obama: I can see why people were offended, not the first time I've mangled a statement. People are going through difficult times and were even before the housing crisis. First economic expansion when people's income went down. Costs for gas and other things went up, though. People feel Washington isn't listening or delivering and so focus on things they can count on, like guns, religion. Wedge issues take prominence in politics. When those are exploited we don't get around to solving the problems we need to. We can break through the frustration with an involved electorate.

Clinton: Granddaughter of factory worker from Scranton. My grandfather worked 6 days a week, went to church, sent his sons to college. Pennsylvanians don't cling to religion when Washington isn't listening. Misunderstanding of religion. Same applies to hunting. That doesn't mean people aren't upset at governmental problems, especially the last 8 years. People are resilient and ready for leadership that will summon them to something greater than themselves.



Since Hill likes to say "I'm your girl" and Obama is "Boy". I think we should refer to them tonight with all due respect as Boy and Girl.

Soylent Red

BOY is doing that creepy finger thing again.


Stephanopolous: Can Obama beat McCain?

Clinton: We have to. We're going to have Democratic president, Barack or me, and we have to make that happen. McCain is formidable candidate with great story to tell but he has the wrong policies. I know what Republican party dishes out and we need to go after every vote.

Steph: Can he win?

Clinton: Yes, yes, yes. But I think I can do a better job because of my record, etc (Scoring well with focus group).

Obama: I too think that I am the better candidate. She's said I'm elitist out of touch, condescending. I can't be condescending toward people of faith because I am one. I've talked about how we have to get those votes and reach out. Lots of sportsmen in my home state. Take one statement and beat it to death. That's politics. It's not helping the person at the kitchen table trying to pay bills. Clinton's baking cookies statement wasn't who she is, what she meant. That's the kind of politics we're accustomed to. American people don't want distraction they want to know how we'll deliver. Frustrated and angry at our politics.


Obama is a man of faith, so he can't be condescending of people of faith, and Hillary is bad to keep bringing up this issue.

People said Hillary was elitist when she said she was home baking cookies.

I don't think so.

Obama thinks it's a distraction to say he is an elitist.


Hillary is still very annoying, but her points are resonating more than his.

Now we get to Reverend Wright. You never heard the bad stuff - so why did he rescind his invitation.

What did you know about his statements? Why did it take you a year to disassociate your self.

I only saw the Rolling Stone statements, and I've already addressed this issue. (liar liar pants on fire)


Clinton: My comments were about your remarks. It wasn't just me responding. Many people felt your comments were aimed at them. We need enough votes in November. Repubs, who are shrewd about what it takes to win, did jump on them.

I have the record of results in solving problems, helping people, empowering them to make a better future for themselves. It starts from a basis of respect and connection.

Gibson: Race speech. Never heard him make offensive remarks from pulpits. Why disinvite him from presidential announcement? What did you know?

Obama: Understand that I hadn't seen the remarks that ended up on YouTube. I just saw the stuff in Rolling Stone and thought it would be a distraction. The objectionable ones I disassociated myself from and reminded people of all the wonderful work Wright's church has done, spoke to the broader context. Anger in African American community and other communities as well. We have chance to move beyond it and I think that's what my candidacy represents.

People recognize that unless we bridge differences we won't solve problems. When unified nothing we can't tackle.

Soylent Red

Ooooh GIRL issues a veiled attack on BOY's judgement.

hit and run

Drinking game: Obama says Distraction.


Blacks are angry and so is everyone else. But I'll move us all beyond that with a bible and Reverend Wright, Bill Ayers and Tony Rezko at my side.

Hillary: "One's choice of church and pastor is rooted in what one believes". Reverend Wright would have been intolerable to me.

Obama chuckles. and raises that crooked finger.

Obama says he didn't hear those remarks (liar liar)

Then he attacks Senator Clinton's pastor said Reverend Wright was a good guy.

Obama is lying thru his teeth, is that obvious to anyone but us?

Do you think Reverend Wright loves American as much as you do?

Oh this is nothing, Clinton has clips too. This is just politics.

Soylent Red

Are you trying to kill us Hit?


We need a commercial so I can open a bottle of wine


He's disowned Wright - not the comments. He's a former marine so he must be patriotic. Wasn't the guy who bombed Oklahoma a marine too.

Girl says Boy is a flip flopper.

As leaders we have a choice who we associate with. Girl raises Farrakhan, talks about giving the bulletin to the leader of Hamas.

Poll says you aren't honest girl. What say you? How about that sniper fire?


Gibson: You said he wouldn't be your pastor. 8,000 members, we've heard about great things he's done, are those members wrong?

Clinton: I was asked a personal question and gave a personal answer. For Wright to have blamed US for attack which happened in my city would have been intolerable for me and I wouldn't have been able to stay in the church. I have no reason to believe that a lot of good things weren't going on, but you get to choose your pastor.

Obama: I didn't hear them, I didn't learn about them. Rescinding invitation was on something different. Clinton's pastor said Wright was being caricatured. I wasn't aware of the statements and I can understand people taking offense, the church community extends beyond the pastor and has done outstanding work. We need to bridge differences and I've always gotten people to work together.

Steph: Do you think Wright loves America as much as you do? What will you do when sermons played on TV over and over after you've gotten nomination?

Obama: If not that, then something else. Always attacks in an election. I have confidence in American people that when I talk to them honestly about my policies and my record they'll support me. Americans won't be distracted again by statements of one of my associates.

Steph: You've disowned him?

Obama: The comments I've disowned.

Steph: Does he love America?

Obama: He's a marine but he has reason to be angry.

Clinton: So many variations on the explanations that we heard and it deserves more explanation. Bring people together in a way that overcomes the bitterness and the divisiveness. As leaders we have the choice of who we associate with and who we give the stamp of approval to. Farrakhan, church bulletin by the Hamas guy. Everything is examined in a campaign.

hit and run

Sorry, I'm in the office not watching -- so I am only snarking off the liveblogging. Which promises to be, well, less than reality based at some points....like say for example....

Clinton has clips too.

Yeah, how the hell do you think she returned fire in Tuzla?

hit and run

Americans won't be distracted again by statements of one of my associates.

What? Of course we will! We cling to distractions like an infant to a blankey.

Especially when Rove tells us to.


Drinking game: Obama says Distraction.

Yes! I would also add "wedge issues" and "community organizer"


He never heard a word Wright said, never read a word in the monthly church bulletin? I'm West Coast so can't watch for another 3 hours, did he really imply that?


We need a commercial so I can open a bottle of wine


Obama is really weak tonight. Hill is holding her temper nicely - must be that calm shade of green she's wearing.

Soylent Red

New Obamessiah ad:

"Trying times call for lying politicians."


Steph: People don't think you're honest. Bosnia.

Clinton: I may be a lot of things but I am not dumb. I wrote about this in 2004. On a couple of occasions in last couple weeks I've said things that we're right, I'm embarrassed about it and I've apologized for it. But, I'm glad I went to Bosnia. It was a war zone. Gen. Clark can tell you about. Unfortunately I wasn't as accurate as I have been in the past. I can rely on having gone to more than 80 countries. It gives me an advantage, particularly against Sen. McCain. Maybe I need more sleep. We've both made mistakes over past 15 months. I apologize.

Steph: You say Clinton hasn't been fully truthful about what she'll do as Pres?

Obama: Clinton has strong record to run on. I haven't commented on Bosnia. We're both working hard, sometimes the message will be imperfectly delivered. Clinton deserves the right to make mistakes every once in a while. I deserve it too. Let's not get so obsessed with gaffes that we lose sight of the fact that we have to address big issues-bad economy, foreign policy, two wars, income inequality. To be obsessed with these errors is a mistake (focus group loves this). Change Washington, move forward.


Sara, he said he wasn't there for any of the offensive remarks. "If it offended you, I didn't hear it" was basically the gist.

hit and run

Obama: I am incapable of being offended because I am post-partisan -- but if you are offended, I apologize.

::under breath:: and when you achieve post-partisan enlightenment like me you'll stop being distracted by all these divisive issues that the republicans thrust upon your feeble minds.


Hillary admits to lying about Bosnia. WOW.

Wesley Clark told her what to say. The soldiers had on uniforms, so it was an easy mistake to make. LOL

She's gonna get more sleep or have someone remind her of the truth when she lies. Whoops. (How about Bill)

Boy questions girls credibility. Has she been truthful?

Boy hedges. lies. And says his campaign only responds to inquiries.

Holy cow, someone should just annoint McCain now. These two are really tanking.

Or is it me.

Boy wants us to forget gaffes.

Obama proclaims "worse" than a recession. So we can't think about errors, they don't matter and when I am president, errors all will be overlooked.

Electability: Do you believe in the American flag. Why don't you wear it.

Don't worry, he reveres the flag, he just won't wear it. And now he tells us his story. Gimme a beak.

"I could not help but love this country"

He shows his patriotism about how he treats veterans, and opposing the war. (I bet the vets love that) Tax increases are my patriotism.

People won't question my patriotism. Wanna bet?

I war a pin when I got it from a veteran. That is a manufactored issue


William Ayers - whooooa

He's never apologized - explain that relationship/

That's an example of - say it - say it - say it -

It doesn't reflect on me, and he compares Ayers to Tom Coburn. That's not gonna work.

Americans are smarter than that.

I think he is tanking.


I just saw two superimposed clips with Obama, one giving a speech, one on a rope line. He was about 10 shades darker out on the meet and greet. What's with that?

hit and run

People won't question my patriotism. Wanna bet?

Grrrumble...TM won't admit it but...(oops sorry, wrong thread)


It is not airing live on the West coast - anybody know of a live feed I can get on the internet?


Girl: Obama served on a board with Ayers.

Yikes! The republicans will raise this. You bet. And that Coburn remark is not gonna fly.

Girl wants republicans to apologize for Bush Cheney and not run anyone. Yikes.

Girl would not make it by her own vetting system because her husband pardoned the weatherman for actions they did 40 years ago, and I shouldn't be held accountable for things that happened 40 years ago. Holy cow.

Soylent Red

That's how chameleons are Sara.

hit and run

It doesn't reflect on me, and he compares Ayers to Tom Coburn.

I need more info on that. Before I break a window.


Voter question: Do you believe in American flag? Not questioning patriotism. Why don't you wear one?

Gibson: You wore one yesterday, but it's all over the internet. Vulnerability?

Obama: I revere the flag and this country and wouldn't be running if I didn't, wouldn't be standing here if not for this country. My story only possible in this country. Can't help but love this country after all it's done for me. I show my patriotism by how we treat veterans, conduct foreign policy, how we help Americans, how we create ladders of opportunity. People aren't going to be questioning my patriotism in a debate with McCain. They'll care about issues.

I wore one when a disabled veteran handed one to me. This is the kind of manufactured issue that our politics has become obsessed with.

Steph: William Ayers, weatherman, hasn't apologized and says he didn't do enough. Campaign says you are friendly.

Obama: This is an example of what I am talking about. This is someone who lives in my neighborhood, professor of English. He hasn't endorsed me, I don't get ideas from him. He did stuff 40 years ago when I was 8 years old.

I'm friendly with Tom Coburn too, who thinks the death penalty should be extended to abortionists.

People aren't going to get hoodwinked.

Clinton: I think that as a general statement that is fine, but the relationship between Obama and Ayers is stronger than that, they were on a board together. I think people will be asking about this, I know Senator Obama, but certainly Republicans will raise this.

Republicans should apologize for Bush-Cheney and not run anyone for White House. I've been in this arena and my closets have been fully examined.

Obama: By Sen. Clinton's own vetting standards I don't think she would make it. Bill Clinton pardoned Weathermen, more significant than my board service. Republicans will attack but I can take a punch and have taken many from Clinton. I look forward to have a debate on issues with McCain. People will be asking whether we're going to have 4 more years of Bush economic and foreign policy or my great and wonderful policies.


Gibson: We've gotten out of balance.

Clinton: I've noticed.

Gibson: Would you like to reply now or in the next half hour.

Clinton: We can wait.



Welcome to the dirty laundry debate.


6abc.com, centralcal. That's what I'm doing.


Comment from Ace's liveblog:

Jack M. - Clinton pardon terrorists (for $ allegedly)
Obama has terrorists hold fundraisers for him.


Internet live feed... http://a.abclocal.go.com/wpvi/livemedia?section=news/politics&id=6083174


I question Stephanopolous asking any questions that he already gave Hillary prior to this Tag Team on Obama.

I am a bitter cynic.


I find this stunning. Do you Elliott?


Nice jab by Boy on the Clinton pardon. Girl did not do a great job outlining the Ayers-Boy connections.

Still I think Girl is coming off stronger so far. He's been on the defense almost the entire time.


It's really the first debate when anyone has asked Obama anything. And he's tanking.


Thanks Elliot!


This has been an excellent debate from the perspective of the fascist hyenas so far. Let's see if they can keep it up.


When Was Obama’s Mom On Food Stamps?

Now we learn that Obama’s destitute mother was on food stamps. But I would like to know when.

There is a possibility that if she was, she was scamming the system.

[Barack Obama] was born in 1961 but his mother could not get food stamps then because a) she was married and b) they were not available then.

Then [Barack Senior] moved to a foreign country. I don’t think that we were sending food stamps to foreign nations.

When she moved back in 1965, food stamps were not available in Hawaii in 1965.

In 1967, she married the second time and moved to Jakarta. Nope, no food stamps then.

By the time she moved back once again, he was living with his grandparents who had jobs and food stamps were not being handed out like Halloween candy in those years.

It would be interesting if someone did a FOI request to see if his mother ever collected food stamps. Since she is deceased, it should be no problem. But my guess? It is all bull crap.

hit and run

Senator Obama: having watched you for the past year during this campaign, I find myself more cynical as a result. How would you explain that without insulting me?

Or do you feel completely comfortable insulting me?

Because I would be happy to return the favor.

Cecil Turner

I see the hoodwinked/bamboozled meme is alive and well.

hit and run

It would be interesting if someone did a FOI request to see if his mother ever collected food stamps. Since she is deceased, it should be no problem. But my guess? It is all bull crap.

My guess? It's all a distraction from the real issues.

Let's get back to hope and change and unity.

Soylent Red

BOY and GIRL both just admitted that that they will adopt the Lyndon Johnson model.

And I can't stand BOY calling it "PAWK-IS-STAWN"


The damned "finger" is a distraction!


Voter question: Do candidates have real plan to get out of Iraq or is that campaign propaganda? How will they do that with the situation on the ground.

Gibson: Wolfson says Clinton will take troops out no matter what. Is that right, in spite of what generals say.

Clinton: We have civilian control and we have best military in world. I've watched this president change the rationale and move the goalposts on war. In our best interests and Iraq's best interests for us to begin withdrawal within 60 days. Iraqis won't have blank check any more. I'll begin and intense diplomatic effort in region to get other countries to understand the stakes. I've been clear that I'll start withdrawal within 60 days. We've had times when military commanders have been opposed to C-in-C's views.

Gibson: Do you know better than commanders?

Clinton: No one knows what will happen. Many scenarios. But having our forces in Iraq, getting injured, Iraqi casualties is no way to maintain our position in the world. Afghanistan has been neglected. Other problems we have failed to address. Don't know what will happen if we withdraw, but we know what will happen if we stay. Won't be able to assert leadership and moral authority in rest of world.

Gibson: Your campaign says out of Iraq within 16 months.

Obama: Because the commander in chief sets the mission. Bush has been saying he's just taking cues from Petraeus but Bush sets mission. Time for strategy that makes Americans safer. I'll always listen to commanders on ground on tactics, but I'll set mission. The buck stops with me. I have to look at Afghanistan and Pakistan and the rise of Al Qaeda there. Anti-Americanism across middle east. We don't have the troops to deal with another crisis.


NOw we see the girl as military commander. She will not pay attention to what the commanders in Iraq say, she will overrule them and bring the soldiers home. Stunning.

Once the genocide begins, she will have a summit and tell all the people in the world what the stakes are.

Girl, do you think you know more than General Petreaus? Yes. (well she said "no" but then went on to say "yes".)

"we are mired in Iraq".

By losing the war we will re-assert our dominance in the world. Holy cow.

Obama would you withdraw even if the generals said no. Yes. The president sets the mission. We've been brilliant but we have to withdraw because it will make us safer - cause you know we've been attacked all those times since 911. I define the mission, they (generals)can talk about tactics.

Holy cow. Can this be selling with Americans?

On to Iran. They get a nuclear weapon. Should the US treat an attack on Israel as an attack on the US.

I'll talk to the Iranians - they will listen to me. No sweat. I'll tell them to stop saying bad things. An attack on Israel is an attack on an ally. But not on us.

Girl wants to create an umbrella of deterrence that goes further. Bush has failed - uh, wasn't that COngress that failed girl, with your vote?

Girl will get all the people in the region to agree. I'm sure Iraq will be tops on the list after all that genocide is down. I'd use diplomacy with the low guys. Not the big guys.

I find this entire debate shocking.


Steph: Iran continues to pursue nukes. Should we consider and Iranian attack on Israel and attack on US?

Obama: Have to keep nukes out of the Iranians hands. That's going to be a top priority. It would include direct talks, laying out that we consider their sponsorship of terrorist organizations and threats toward Israel unacceptable. I'll take no options off the table when it comes to preventing them from getting nukes. Iran needs to understand that an attack on Israel is an attack on the strongest US ally in region and something we consider unacceptable.

Clinton: We need much broader shield of deterrence than just Israel. Iran is up to its standard tricks. Time for security agreement in the region with respect to Iran. Need diplomatic engagement with Iran. Let everyone know that we're serious, but do it at a low level. I'd have a diplomatic process. Deter other countries from feeling that they need nuclear weapons.

Attack on Israel would trigger massive retaliation and also on other countries under security umbrella. We can't let Iran get nukes and this administration has failed to persuade world that this is a big issue.


Has anyone told Obama that their are Jews in Israel?


Hillary on taxes - liar, liar, pantsuit on fire!

Soylent Red

Now girl has a finger thing going on.

hit and run

I'll talk to the Iranians - they will listen to me.

They're bitter, clinging to their religion and nuclear weapons and antipathy to those not like them.


The middle class doesn't itemize. Oh, Barry, Oh Barry O!!! Oh, you are so wrong.

Soylent Red


It's because of Iran's high unemployment and low minimum raise, dontcha know.

hit and run

It's because of Iran's high unemployment and low minimum raise, dontcha know.

That and because the regime is conservative. They're practically necons!!!!


Yes, Jane it is shocking, when the questions are better than they have been with the other wussy debates, the answers then become more revealing.

Soylent Red

BOY doesn't like people pressing him. He gets visibly agitated.



Are you going to raise taxes for those over $200,000.

Girl raises the ante - doesn't take the pledge and says raising taxes on those making over $250,000 taxes will go thru the roof. No middle class tax increases of any kind.

Boy says he will cut taxes, and offset the payroll tax for those under 75k. So over 75k watch out.

"Pain trickles up". More regulation. It's the lobbyists fault. (not the ones in my campaign) gobbledy gook. I'll cahnge Washington.

Increase in cap gains tax - Obama - revenue increased when the cap dropped. So why raise it Obama. Oh don't worry I'm looking at it for fairness, it doesn't matter if government has less revenue. Forget common sense, it's all about the fairness. Then he talks about all the things he wants to fund, and avoids the question. Boy asserts that history is wrong. So he will raise taxes.

Girl bashes Bush. Praises he husbands, misconstrues statistics.

Boy has Obama lost this debate. Will the pundits declare him the winner?


Obama's (Boy's?) E.T. finger doesn't seem to be helping the green line from the focus group! Girl does better - even without THE FINGER!


Now Hillary agrees to raise capital gains to 20% and doesn't get the revenue issue. Shouldn't she be lowering them if it's an issue of revenue?


*Smack* Hit.
Jane and Elliott, God bless and keep you for sparing me from having to listen to this drivel!


Obama tries to recover. He is really tanking.


BOY doesn't like people pressing him. He gets visibly agitated.

Watch for when he begins a sentence with "Understand..."

It's a tell that he's annoyed.


Oh Clarice, if I was going to listen to any debate, this is the one I would listen to.

Soylent Red

Ah. The theme has been set for November:

"It may be so screwed up (by Bushitler)that I have to radically change my position."


He just doesn't get it. When the capital gains tax goes down revenues go up.

They both blew it.


Girl bashes Bush. Girl lies.


Boy just flat-lined with the focus group on the tax discussion.


Boy raises finger. He complains that girl is mean.

Soylent Red

Where is this magic line everyone is talking about. Not seeing it.


Steph: Economy (one hour into the debate). McCain says you'll raise taxes. Can you pledge no tax increases for anyone under $200,000, and will you roll back tax cuts if economy is bad?

Clinton: Roll-back on cuts for those making more than $250,000. I don't believe it will detrimentally affect the economy. I won't tax middle class Americans. I have a series of tax cuts for those making less than $250,000. Might not be able to do all those cuts at once, but my website lays out how I would pay for it.

Steph: Same pledge.

Obama: I was first candidate to say I'd cut their taxes. Offset the payroll tax so families making $75,000 a year or less would get money back, no income tax on social security for seniors. Incomes flat. Pain trickles up. Because people are struggling, the housing market had problems. Also lack of oversight, too much influence of lobbyists. Tax laws written by the well connected. Deliver on middle class tax relief by changing how things are done in Washington.

Gibson: You've said you'd increase capital gains tax. When rate has been cut the revenue has gone up. So why raise it?

Obama: I'd consider raising it for purposes of fairness. Hedge fund managers make too much money and are paying a lower tax rate than their secretaries. I want people to make money, but I want the system to be fair. I want to provide services and it doesn't come free. Can't take out credit card from Bank of China in name of our children and grandchildren the way Bush and McCain have done and will due.

Gibson: But revenue goes up with cut.

Obama: Housing market, Bush, etc.

Clinton: We have to get back to having economy that lifts everyone up, not just the rich. Typical family saw $7000 increase in income under Clinton. They've lost money under Bush. I don't want to take an extra penny of tax money but we need to make smart investments in energy independence and infrastructure. Tackle the housing crisis. If I'd been Pres a year ago we would have begun to tackle the housing crisis, freezing foreclosures, freezing interest rates. Gov. Rendell, who saw this coming, has done a great job here in Pennsylvania. The President hasn't done that, I would have.

Taxes are a part of it, but we have to figure out what we can invest in.

Gibson: Raise capital gains tax?

Clinton: I wouldn't raise it above 20% if I did.

Gibson: Would you raise it I proposed it?

Clinton: Have to look at revenue and be careful on how we navigate this, it will have impact on educators, teachers, firefighters. (She may have said something about payroll tax, my livestream went out.)

Obama: Raise cap on payroll tax, cause more retirees will be supported by fewer. Clinton said she'd consider when she thought she was off camera. I don't want to raise retirement age, cut benefits.

Gibson: Lot's of people between $97,000 and $250,000?

Obama: I might exempt them. You can't get something for nothing and if you care about social security you have to be honest about what we can do.

Clinton: I care about social security, and if we'd stayed on Clinton path social security would be fine but Bush cut taxes and went to war, the first war we've never paid for. Contra Obama, Tip and Gip had a commission in 1983 and that worked out.

Obama: That commission raised the retirement age and the payroll tax. She can't have it both ways.

Clinton: There are more progressive ways to do it.



Highlight of the Night:

Boy: "You can't get something for nothing!"

He finally told the truth.


I missed the first 40 minutes - Jane, Elliott, did I miss anything really, really good? (Yes, I will try to catch up on the thread during commercial breaks)!


Holy COW

hit and run

Just pass the damn Put Your Money Where Your Mouth is Bill.

All these rich libs complaining they don't pay enough in taxes will coolectively balance whatever budget deficit exists because of the depth of their selfless patriotism.

Soylent Red

BTW Jane, in case I haven't mentioned it lately...You do snark like snark should be done.

A hearty "good work" to you and Elliot.


Centralcal, the first 40 minutes was simply amazing. Yeah you missed a lot of stuff. You missed bitterness, clinging, reverend Wright and Ayers.


I hadn't seen your question, Jane, though I probably answered it with my reference to the FHs. I do find it stunning how much of the debate was about the various missteps and gaffes the two have made. It took an hour to get to the economic questions.


Soylent: Elliots link shows a focus group line and an itsy, bitsy picture of the candidates.

Link in name (Jane's famous techy trick).

hit and run

Boy: Pain trickles up.

Unless you're chris mattews.

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