Hitchens V. Hillary

Chris Hitchens is especially outraged about Hillary's Bosni tale.  Having experienced mortar fire there himself, he thinks a would-be leader really ought to know the difference between real and imagined fire.  But beyond that, he tells us that Hillary actually opposed an American intervention in Bosnia early in the Clinton Administration for fear it would distract from her health care initiative; from his thunderous crescendo:

It's hardly necessary for me to point out that the United States did not receive national health care in return for its acquiescence in the murder of tens of thousands of European civilians. But perhaps that is the least of it. Were I to be asked if Sen. Clinton has ever lost any sleep over those heaps of casualties, I have the distinct feeling that I could guess the answer. She has no tears for anyone but herself. In the end, and over her strenuous objections, the United States and its allies did rescue our honor and did put an end to Slobodan Milosevic and his state-supported terrorism. Yet instead of preserving a polite reticence about this, or at least an appropriate reserve, Sen. Clinton now has the obscene urge to claim the raped and slaughtered people of Bosnia as if their misery and death were somehow to be credited to her account! Words begin to fail one at this point. Is there no such thing as shame? Is there no decency at last? Let the memory of the truth, and the exposure of the lie, at least make us resolve that no Clinton ever sees the inside of the White House again.

Worth remembering - Hitchens' anti (Bill) Clinton screed was titled "No One Left To Lie To", not "Nothing Left To Lie About".

Comments

[Jane]

"Bosni" Bosnia, what's the difference?

Wasn't McCain instrumental in getting Clinton to actually move on Bosnia?

[Rick Ballard]

"The United States took no further action in Bosnia, and the "ethnic cleansing" by the Serbs was to continue for four more years, resulting in the deaths of more than 250,000 people"

Hitch would be a bit more believable if he didn't repeat propaganda lies in support of his own contentions. Total casualties for the Bosnian war are put at less than 100,000 with about 39,000 being civilians. Some might consider that rather typical of an encounter with islam's bloody edge.

I certainly don't disagree with the contention that RW sleeps soundly. A feather would crush the combined conscience of the Clinton's as flat as a pancake. That ain't exactly news.

[fdcol63]

Is there no such thing as shame? Is there no decency at last?

Where the Clintons are concerned? Fat chance.

[clarice]

He is a beautiful, passionate writer. Even when I disagree with him, I love reading whatever he's written.

One nice thing about Hill's run--and the thought is not original with me--the media finally feels free to tell us what they really think about the duo, stuff they repressed for all these years.

[royf]

OT

Sorry to go off topic but I can't get to FreeRepublic this morning, do any of you know what is up?

Thanks

[clarice]

I think the site's down,royf. I can't get to it either.

[Appalled Moderate]

I understand the moral outrage, but I think simple mockery is the better approach, and, from a moral standpoint, perhaps more satisfying. It's also easier to communicate to an electorate which, back in 1993-4, was also more interested in concentrating on healthcare than worrying about Bosnia.

[Ranger]

Rick,

I hate to disagree with you on this one, but there are still somewhere between 100,000 and 200,000 people (depending on which list you use) listed as "missing" from the Bosnia war. And if you think this number seems way to large given that Bosnia's population before the war was only 2.5 milion, please remember that in World War II Yugslavia had a casualty rate of roughtly 11% of the population in 4 years.

Unfortunately, I think Hitchens' desire to put a hit on Hill distracts from the real lesson of the Bosnia War with regards to international relations, which is that colaborative diplomacy sucks as a means of crisis resolution. The main reason we did nothing in Bosnia wasn't Hill's desire to clear the decks for her national health care. It was the Clinton attitude of foreign policy and a humble America before the world. Rather than going in and taking action, we asked the Europeans what they thought should be done. We set up the "Contact Group" of 5 countires, with any one of them having veto power over collective decisions. The only reason that we interviened at all was that the US had promissed to evacuate the UN peacekeepers if the situation there called for it, and by 95 the UN was saying they were either going to have to go to war with the Serbs to keep the supply lines open to Sarajevo or they were going to have to be evacuated. Holbrook told Clinton he faced either a humiliating withdrawl from Bosnia, ala Somalia, in the middle of an election year, or he could attack the Serbs and force a peace settlement. The Dayton Agreement was about getting the Bosnia issue off the table for Clinton's re-election campaign, which is why the 1 year deadline was conveniently set for Dec 96. The only thing that saved Bosnia from futher war was Bill Clinton's desire for political preservation.

[GMax]

Hitchens is a bastard in the mold of Hemingway. Maybe a drunken and disheveled Hemingway but he is a gifted writer. If his disdain for Hill is exceeded by anyone, it might be Dick Morris, but even that might be a toss up.

Its not easy to make passionate enemies like these, you have to be worthy of it.

[MarkO]

Based on what she has endured with Billy, I wonder if she can distinguish between reality and fiction. Some of these lies are essential to her ability to function at all. I think she needed to believe in a vast conspiracy and that Bill was ministering to young women. If so, that mental condition disturbs me much more than simple lying.

That said, neither of the Democrat candidates seems to have any actual qualification for the office.

[MayBee]

Its not easy to make passionate enemies like these, you have to be worthy of it.

Oh, GMax. I love that.

[MayBee]

It was the Clinton attitude of foreign policy and a humble America before the world.

Ranger, yes yes yes.
This is why we need to get to the bottom of what it is that Obama wants- I suspect it is more of that.
Did you all see the Q&A yesterday (GMax blurbed it). He talked about leaving embassy forces in Iraq like we have in France and Great Britain (what? maybe 20 marines each?), and went on to say how we have forces in other countries to protect our civilian population. Balderdash.
Obama does not know what he's talking about when it comes to even the smallest military detail.

[fdcol63]

Whatever the exact casualty figures, the tragedy in the Yugoslav Wars between 1991 - 2001 underscore the fallacy of the liberal fantasies of "European superiority" in diplomacy, conflict resolution, and collective security, and highlighted Europe's inability and unwillingness to handle serious crises in their own backyard without American leadership, money, and military resources.

Europe had a chance to prove that they meant what they said after WW2 - "Never Again" - and that they could handle their own affairs without their arrogant, ignorant, bullying, and war-mongering American cousins, but they stood by and did nothing.

No. We don't need to be more like Europe. If we did, who would they turn to then to save them from themselves?

[Rick Ballard]

"but there are still somewhere between 100,000 and 200,000 people (depending on which list you use) listed as "missing" from the Bosnia war."

The ICRC is still looking for about 15,000, they appear to be very thorough in their documentation. Even al-Jazeera puts the "mass graves" total at 18,000.

I agree that "collaborative diplomacy sucks" but I have no idea as to how to approach a decision concerning unilateral intervention in an area where US interests are minimal. Does Tibet count - or Zimbabwe, should Mugabe "resolve" issues in the traditional African manner?

Aside from the lasting enmity of the Serbs, what was the US net gain from the Bosnian intervention?

Perhaps RW could explain the benefit achieved by her heroic visit. That is, if it wouldn't set of a bout of post traumatic stress.

[Sue]

France and Great Britain (what? maybe 20 marines each?)

Great. Another Iranian hostage crisis.

[GMax]

Aside from the lasting enmity of the Serbs, what was the US net gain from the Bosnian intervention?

Why the gatitude and adulation of the entire Muslim world. I am amazed that you can not see it. /sarcasm off off off dammit

[GMax]

gatitude = gratitude

[DebinNC]

via ALLAHPUNDIT: Video of Obama Q&A MayBee mentioned

[Danube of Thought]

To anyone still entertaining notions of Eurpoean superiority in diplomacy, etc., I would offer the 20th Century in its entirety, and rest my case. What happened in the latter part of the century in the former Yugoslavia, while tragic, is a mere bagatelle.

Today in the NYTimes, two former Clinton babes trot out details of other events on Hillary's trip to suggest that it was, indeed, risky and harrowing. Even if we stipulate that everything they say is accurate, it does nothing but reinforce the fact that, as R. E. Tyrell said, the Clintons tell big lies when little ones would suffice, and little lies when the truth would do just fine. The woman lies with a straight face, does it all the time, and seems quite eerily to believe her own words.

[GMax]

Oh Crap, I have already read my first call for massive aid to Zimbabwe post Mugabe. Hell he has not even left yet that I am aware. Why must the US taxpayer be the guys following the elephants in the parade?

Let the leftists and Euroweenies figure out how to fix this place. They created the conditions and support for the fool, let them fix it.

[DebinNC]

Hillary and the Rwanda Genocide
...........................................
And Hillary on This Week

STEPHANOPOULOS: President Clinton has said, has suggested that you urged him to intervene in Rwanda in 1994.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Is that true?

CLINTON: It is. It is true. And, you know, I believe that our government failed. We obviously didn't have a lot of good options. It moved very quickly. It was a difficult, terrible genocide to try to get our arms around and to do something to try to stem or prevent. It didn't happen, and that is something that the president has apologized for, and I think that for me, it was one of the most poignant and difficult experiences, when I met with Rwandan refugees in Kampala, Uganda, shortly after the genocide ended, and I personally apologized to women whose arms had been hacked off, who had seen their husbands and their children murdered before their very eyes and were at the bottom of piles of bodies. And then when I was able to go to Rwanda and be part of expressing our deep regrets, because we didn't speak out adequately enough, and we certainly didn't take action.
............................................
Other than her lying, self-serving account of what happened, what kind of person says, "It was a difficult, terrible genocide to try to get our arms around .." in the same breath as "and I personally apologized to women whose arms had been hacked off"?

[Barney Frank]

I think she needed to believe in a vast conspiracy and that Bill was ministering to young women. If so, that mental condition disturbs me much more than simple lying.

Both of the Clinton's have a personality disorder. I have a sibling with one and believe me once you have dealt with one up close and personal the signs are unmistakable.

[Sue]

"I think the world will breathe a sigh of relief when this president is gone," Clinton said, criticizing Bush for pulling out of various accordings[sic}, including the Kyoto Protocol on global warming.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080401/D8VOS9000.html>Chelse criticizes Bush

Is "accordings" the only mistake in this article? I didn't think Clinton signed on to the Kyoto accord. How can you pull out of what you were never part of?

[sbw]

Clarice: the media finally feels free to tell us what they really think about the duo, stuff they repressed for all these years.

Think? One would like to believe it so. But if they believed it to be important, why wait until now? To really think something about the duo, one needs to really think. On the basis of what has been reported ever since, I have no supporting evidence. See Richard Mitchell:

The mind is a rudderless wanderer blown here or there by any puff of breeze. If I mention watermelons, you must think of watermelons; if giraffes, giraffes. The very rare genius can keep his mind on course for a while, perhaps as long as a whole minute, but most of us are always at the mercy of every random suggestion of environment. We imagine that we sit down and think, but, in fact, we mostly gather wool, remembering this and that and fantasizing about the other. In our heads we recite some slogans and rehash the past, often repeatedly. Even in this foolish maundering, we are easily distracted by random thoughts, mostly about money or politics but often about sports or sex. Left to its own devices, the mind plays like a child in well-stocked sandbox, toying idly with trinkets and baubles and often doing the same thing over and over again until some slightly more interesting game presents itself.

... In his writing, then, we can judge of at least two things in a man--his ability to think and his intention to do so, his maturity. An education that does not teach clear, coherent writing cannot provide our world with thoughtful adults; it gives us instead, at the best, clever children of all ages.

[Sue]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080401/D8VOS9000.html>Chelsea criticizes Bush

Sorry.

[Rich Berger]

Barney Frank-

You mean Ann Lewis?

[clarice]

sbw--What an interesting notion. I think that's true, except for some people who can rather self-hypnotize themselves out of the moment..it's a talent we all have to practice in this age where we are bombarded by nonstop idiocies and distractions.

As for Europe --when even the Guardian makes fun of the very notion of an EU armed force, certainly the delusionary game of Europe as a world power is up.

[Barney Frank]

Rich Berger,

You mean Ann Lewis?

LOL.
I didn't actually, but if the straightjacket fits......

[Rick Ballard]

"why wait until now?"

Because if the Red Witch takes power she has proven that she will abuse it to an extent that any normal person would have reason to fear. The FBI files and the wanton subversion and abuse of the investigative power of the IRS should be sufficient warning to anyone.

"Thinking" about her absolute lack of any moral or ethical inhibition should lead one to "think" that discretion might just be the better part of valor.

The reverse of the coin is that when such a creature is wounded, no mercy will be shown. I'm hoping that we'll be seeing a lot more of that aspect as she weakens.

There is no doubt that the unfocused thought to which you refer accounts for a fair portion of her support. I certainly could not quantify the number that quite rightfully fear her as distinguished from those geese who awake to a new world each morning and follow her without any thought whatsoever.

[Ranger]

Well, I have to say that the ICRC doesn't get much more respect than the UN or the ICTY in Bosnia itself (BTW, the ICRC focused mostly on Muslims and Croats, they basically ignored the Serb victims of the war). Last time I checked the Bosnian government's list (and I have to admit that it was several years ago that I did) it was still around 200,000 missing. Now, the Bosnian government has a vested interest in keeping the number as high as possible, so I take that number with a grain of salt.

As for the numbers of mass graves, they are very under-reported as well. When I was there I tried to help a local national who worked as a mechanic report a site that he thought had the bodies of 10-12 people who had dissapeard from his village on the same day in 92 to the ICTY. They told me that if there were less than 100 bodies, they wouldn't take the report because they didn't consider it a significant enough sight to even register, let alone investigage. Most of the mass graves are in the Republika Srpska, and they have no interest or intent in locating them.

My personal best guess is that the totals are somewhere in the 120,000 range, from what I saw working in Northern and Eastern Bosnia. So, yes, Hitchins over states some, but I have no doubt he could find current sources to back up his numbers if he really wanted to.

Also, right now there are some where around 1 milion Serb refugees from Croatia, Bosnia, and Kosovo living in refugee centers in Serbia. But to the Hills and Obamas of the world, that's ok because they were the "bad people" and they deserve it.

[Jane]

Other than her lying, self-serving account of what happened, what kind of person says, "It was a difficult, terrible genocide to try to get our arms around .." in the same breath as "and I personally apologized to women whose arms had been hacked off"?

I noticed that too.

[Elliott]

Sue,

As I recall, Gore signed the Kyoto protocols, but Clinton never submitted it for ratification because the Senate had passed a resolution stating the United States should not be a party to a treaty on emissions that did not include China and India by a vote of 95-0. Upon arriving in office, Bush announced that he wouldn't submit it to the Senate either.

[maryrose]

Barney frank:
I totally agree with your comments.
How is your wife doing? I keep praying for her.

[Danube of Thought]

I'm sure the women felt a lot better after receiving the apology.

I enjoy--nay, I relish, I savor--contemplating what the ultimate fallout of her ongoing meltdown will be on Hillary and Bubba. When she is finally out of this race, can anyone imagine her acceding to the position of Majority Leader? Knowing the Clintons' passionate belief that politics is all about settling scores, how many Senators would grant her that power? At the outset, we can count out every single one of them who has come out for Obama. As for the rest of them, why would they do it? Would either she or her husband be the "titular head" of the party after this fall? I don't think so. The party has never been that enamored of this couple; it has used them in much the same way that they have used it. There is not much actual loyalty in either direction. Seeing Bill Clinton marginalized will bring to my heart joy of a rare kind indeed.

[Jane]

OT: Did you see this?

McDermott to pay more than $1 million in Boehner legal bills.

In a statement, McDermott said the legal fight - which Boehner offered at one point to settle with a public apology and a charitable donation - was worth it, despite the cost.

"This has been a long and costly battle but, in the final analysis, the judgment handed down today in the U.S. District Court is a small price to pay in defense of so fundamental a principle, and freedom, as the First Amendment"

Indeed.

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

I never tire of this:

...Hillary Rodham Clinton needs to be kept very far away from the White House for the rest of her life. --J. Bradford DeLong

[narciso]

The other side effect, is that regardless of the numbers, the impression of the outcome of the Serbian Academy of Arts & Science's 1987 recommendation; resonated to the mosques and madrassas in the greater Ummah, Omar Sheik the one who kidnapped Daniel Pearl, if didn't actually behead him, was drawn to Bosnia, out of the LSE.
At least one of two hijackers; the elusive Mecca brothers in San Diego, Al Midhar and Al Hazmi; visited Bosnia in that period. Mousaoui, KSM, & Zubeydah, all were involved
there. It didn't matter that the airstrikes
and the peacekeeping force latereffectively
ended the operation along with the efforts of the 'mercenary outfit" MPRI, in Croatia.
Of course, the Croatian Army officers who worked with us; are facing their just rewards; war crimes prosecutions. That'll teach him. Of course, most of this occurred
under the aegis of the British Wesley Clark
General Michael Rose, head of UNPROFOR.

[Barney Frank]

maryrose,

My wife is in complete remission and feels better than ever; I can't keep up with her. Thanks for remembering and praying.

[Daddy]

I bought every word of Hitchen's screed except this: "Words begin to fail one..." . A cold day in Hell that'd be.

[DubiousD]

All this Hillary and Bosnia talk reminds me that Radovan Karadžić and Ratko Mladić are still at large.