Hmm, Looks Like There ARE Atheists In Foxholes

Ok, there are atheists in foxholes - who knew?

Obviously, some of the incidents of discrimination against atheists described in the Times story are troubling.  I look to President Obama to reform the military on a "Less Prayer, More Gays" platform, forcing religious observance underground and allowing gays to serve openly.  Why not - he should have a pretty good feel for the military culture, yes?

Comments

[ParseThis]

Just another example of an anti-Christian bigotry developing.

[HoosierHoops]

OT: Jordan Update!!
My boy is home from Iraq!!!!
I camcordered the whole event and will post the video on Jordan's my space page for all of you to see..
Let me describe the event for you.
We got to Camp Pendleton about 10 pm last night and recieved the word that the boys were running about an hour and a half late.
It was such a crowd at the parade grounds..They set up free food and drinks and toys for the kids..and we got a chance to meet other families and mill around for awhile..One mother had a new born baby like 6 months old that her marine had never seen.
everyone had signs..it was the neatest thing i had ever been to.
First at about 11pm a bunch of semi trucks pulled up and the 2/5 marines unloaded them in like minutes and put the gear in order for the families to claim it. So i sent the kids over to pull thier equipment.
Now understand this..half of Jordans squad's families are not arriving until later today through Sunday, so when Jordan landed at March air force base he called and asked if those buddies could spend the night at the beach house till thier families could pick them up..So we had a ton of stuff to claim..luckily we had 2 mini vans rented..( thank you AVIS for the rate)
then at 11:30 pm here comes a bunch of white buses with our marines on board.. OMG what a bunch of screaming and cheering...it was unbelieveable!!! It was like a colt's game! the sound was so loud..then they got off the bus and it was a mob scene!!
( I got it all on Video!) Well Jordan got off the second bus and we mobbed him and his buddies!! I did really good till he saw me..then he runs right at me and the video goes crazy..sorry about that..but it's all messed up then..
My lord.. he has gained 20 lbs of muscle and i swear he is 2 inches taller..I tease him on camera that he worked out every day but how did he get so tall? Now dustin my oldest boy is 6'3" and 260lbs and i can take him to the hole any day..But Jordan is going to be a problem..I think he owns the paint on me on the court..( kindof pisses me off..he has got a hoosier ballers body now and he'll put the pops on his ass)
Well we gathered up the boys and drove them to the beach house and got here about 1am.
What a scene!! a bunch of marines drinking beer and eating cold pizza and telling stories all night long.. At about 5am I went to bed and them going strong..
I am not ashamed to say.( And i was a little drunk folks)For the first time in the hoopster's life, I cried myself to sleep.
the pressure was so relieved and i am so happy..
So at 8am this morning Jordan wakes me up and says..hey old man..I need the keys..we are going to all the mall's around here and spending money...So that's where they are ..somewhere having the time of thier lives!!!
At 4pm the other families start to fly in and we get to meet other marine families and we are having a huge party tonight at the beach.
That's the update my friends!!!
I'll link the video for you as soon as jordan puts it on my space.
( in the video..the beautiful woman jumping up and down and going crazy is mrs. hoopster
It's the funniest thing you'll ever see..She is screaming going for 5 foot hops..Jordan is like.. Is that my mom?.I'm so embarrassed!! hahaha )

[Danube of Thought]

Absolutely wonderful, hoops! The whole thing made my eyes well up a bit. We're all mighty happy for you and Mrs. Hoops and all those Marines.

[Cecil Turner]

What a surprise, another dumb anti-military story from the NYTimes. Here's the gist of the situation:

Soft-spoken and younger looking than his 23 years, Specialist Hall began a chapter of the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers at Camp Speicher, near Tikrit, to support others like him.

And of course, the complaint is of thought crime:

“They don’t trust you because they think you are unreliable and might break, since you don’t have God to rely on,” Specialist Hall said of those who proselytize in the military.

So apparently the good Specialist is complaining because of being condemned by those who proselytize in the military . . . whilst he proselytizes in the military. They then follow with a bunch of "quotes" from a Major. Except those aren't qoutes of anyone except Specialist Hall. And even if we accept Hall's side of it, a free-thinker meeting attracted someone with a difference of opinion, who had the temerity to speak out. Big deal. Tell the lad to grow up, and if it becomes divisive (i.e., more than just Hall's feelings were hurt), tell the Major to stay away from the atheist meetings. The NYT thinking this is a telling event just emphasizes how lost they are on all things martial.

This stupidity should never have risen above the level of the first commander involved. And a minor technical note: if the guy has time to organize camp atheist meetings, he probably isn't really "in a foxhole."

[centralcal]

Okay, I am crying and happy for you HH and all the families who are having this wonderful reunion.

[Barry]

Great news HH! I'm happy for your family. And all the other family's welcoming home their loved ones.

[JM Hanes]

Oh HH! Your update does my heart good! Can't wait to see the video -- I think all your pals at JOM wish they could have been there to cheer the buses with you and to thank Jordan and his buddies and their families. Here's looking at ya!

[clarice]

HH, It is very damned hard to read thru teared up eyes!

[SteveMG]

Good for you HH.

Give him an extra hug from all of us.

Amazing people we have.

[Porchlight]

Congratulations Hoosier! What a wonderful story...I am misty with the rest of y'all. Have a blast tonight!

[JM Hanes]

From the Times:

"In November 2007, Specialist Hall was sent home early from Iraq after being repeatedly threatened by other soldiers."

I find this suspiciously non-specific on the cause & nature of the threats, especially when followed by this:

“I caution you that although your ‘legal’ issues are yours and yours alone, I have heard many people disagree with you, and this may be a cause for some of the perceived threats,” wrote Sgt. Maj. Kevin Nolan in Specialist Hall’s counseling for his departure.

Perceived threats? So was he repeatedly threatened or did he repeatedly feel threatened? Was he "sent home early" by higher ups because he was in danger, was an atheist, was disruptive -- or could he have requested a transfer? I don't really know enough about how such things work to guess.

If Hall's story were complete and accurate in its particulars and in the kind of pressure and discrimination it describes, I'd call it problematic. But this is the New York Times, so the vagueness on key points strikes me as significant. When I got to the stat about 95% of complainants being Christians (mostly Protestants), I had to laugh, because, of course, the problem here is evangelicals. If you have to be born again to get a promotion, that's a problem. If born again Christians are trying to share the good news, that's life. When people assert that this is a Christian nation, that's free speech. In my personal experience, newly converted atheists outmatch Christians of any ilk in the zealotry department, and maybe former (small town! southern!) Baptists most of all.

[Jane]

HH -

You made my day, and I'm sure I'm not alone. Have the best time EVER!

[Ann]

HH,

That is the sweetest thing I have ever read while crying. I wish we could all be there. God Bless you and all the marines and their families.

[narciso]

Maybe Specialist Hall, was paid for his recollection, much like the subjects in Errol Morris's and Rory Kennedy's "Abu
Ghraib documentaries" Notice how they ran
the 'Pentagon paid retired analyst, so why
we should believe them' story on the front page on a Sunday' but they ran their' by the way, 'Mr. Morris paid some of sources of his fine, contribution to a war crimes
indict. .documentary' but trust that they're
not making anything up" on a inside Culture
page on a Saturday, which no one reads

[mike]

God Bless and I couldn't be happier for you and your Marine and his buddies!

Where do we get these men and women? Thank you is soo little!

[kim]

A mercy he carries his shield, rather than it him; we are humbled, and happy.
====================================

[Chris]

HH,
Great stuff. Sounds like a wonderful reunion! Best to all the 2/5 and their families. Even the atheists. No, especially them.

[SunnyDay]

HH, fantastic! That is a heart-warming reunion story - can't wait to see the video.

[JM Hanes]

SunnyDay:

How nice to see you!

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Folks, you know by now that I'm hardly anti-military, but in this case I think we're talking about a real problem, and not a new one. Back when I was thinking about going to a service academy (before it became clear that all the academies wanted people with better eyes than I had) I visited the Air Force Academy. One of the things I learned from the tour guide was that there were three chapels available: Jewish, Catholic, and Protestant. Services were held on Sunday, and they were mandatory. I asked what about the Jewish Sabbath being Saturday and was told "services are on Sunday morning and they're mandatory." I asked "what about atheists, or Buddhists?" and was told "Services are on Sunday morning, they're mandatory, and there are Catholic, Protestant, and Jewish."

I was the Cadet Commander of my Civil Air Patrol unit, and we got a new Chaplain, who interviewed each of the cadets, including me. He asked about my religion, and I told him I was a Buddhist. He said "You can't be, your father's a Baptist, I know him." I insisted.

The next week I arrived at the regular Tuesday night meeting, and found I was no longer the Cadet Commander.

It shouldn't be a problem, but there's a reason for the regulations: discrimination and ill-treatment of the differently religioned really does happen. Members of the military are especially vulnerable to commanding officers who, for whatever reasons, think that everyone ought to follow the Right Religion, with the Right traditions, and so on.

[M. Simon]

HH,

Give the Marines my regards. Semper Fi.

An Old Navy (like when frigates were as big as cruisers) Guy,

Simon

[M. Simon]

Charlie,

When I was in Navy Boot Camp I converted a lot of my fellow sailors to Judaism. It was easy. I explained that drinking a small cup of wine was a mandatory part of the service.

It is all a matter of incentives.

[JM Hanes]

Charlie:

I'm really disappointed to hear that. It seems to me that active duty overseas is the last place you want somebody messing with people's heads or trying to gainsay their religious beliefs and I find the idea of a religious litmus test for advancement pretty shocking. I would have taken the story more seriously if it hadn't been "broken" by the NYTimes, which, in itself, is a pretty sad state of affairs.

[mike]

Charlie,

Couldn't agree with you more! This country was founded on the "Freedom Of Religion!" Government has NO place in Religion and Visa Versa!

The ME is a good example of what you get when you mix Religion and Politics!

PS: Just in case someone would mis-understand my position, I have NP with the Crosses on Hills, the manger scene on public property, Ten commandments in the Court house, etc.

After all, this country was founded on Christianity, that is Undeniable even tho many try!:)

[SunnyDay]

Thank you JMH. I'm here reading. Usually way behind. ;)

[Cecil Turner]

I asked what about the Jewish Sabbath being Saturday and was told "services are on Sunday morning and they're mandatory."

Not that way now:

7. When do cadets attend chapel services?
Attendance is on an optional basis. Many cadets attend Sunday or Sabbath services in the Cadet Chapel, which has separate areas for Protestant, Catholic and Jewish services. There is also an all-faith meeting room . . . [and daily services]

Every place in my career has been the same: services optional, nobody cares what (if any) service one goes to. It's illegal to discriminate on the basis of religion, and unlawful to deny a servicemember free practice of his faith (unless there is a mission requirement that takes precedence)--and commanders can't get away with inappropriate pushing of religion--though certainly some individuals try. The only rubs I've ever seen is with aggressive proselytizing and time off. (In some places one gets special time off for church attendance--which rubs some folks the wrong way; but that's very rare.) By far the most common complaints are about proselytizing. (And what some folks think are proselytizing but are not . . . such as chaplains saying prayers at various functions.) But even that wasn't even alleged here . . . merely a non-atheist spouting off at an atheist meeting.

The bottom line is that one can't restrict individuals from talking about their faith completely without denying their free speech/religion rights. Cases must be taken individually. And I'd note the Air Force Academy lawsuit over proselytizing was dismissed . . . but the sensitivity training was already implemented. Having been on the receiving end of that nonsense more than once, I can attest the cure is worse than the disease.

[Danube of Thought]

When I was at the Naval Academy services were mandatory, but with a lot of options. There was a Catholic service, followed by a non-demoniational Protestant one, in the academy chapel on Sunday. You could opt instead to attend the service of your choice out in the town of Annapolis. (I'm not sure how the Jewish Sabbath was accounted for.) But you did have to attend something, one way or another.

Even back then (1958-62), there were rumblings in some quarters about the mandatory stuff. The rationale offered was that for purely professional reasons, even if you were an atheist you needed to be familiar with religious services because many or most of the people you were going to be leading would consider them important.

This was before the Warren Court started issuing its church-state opinions, and it is my understanding that mandatory services were done away with some time ago. I'm not sure about this, but as we used to say as plebes, I'll find out.

[Danube of Thought]

I should add that the Sunday Protestant service was one of the banes of my life there. On no fewer than four occasions I was put on report for sleeping in chapel, and marched many an early-morning hour of extra duty as a result.

On the fourth occasion, I went to my Company Officer and told him that it had to have been a case of mistaken identity. The report said I was sleeping during the sermon. I told the C.O. that I could tell him in detail what the sermon had been about, because I had found the visiting chaplain who gave it to be such a compelling speaker. Here's the rub: that visiting chaplain was none other than William Sloan Coffin of Yale, who went on to a fiery career as an anti-Vietnam protester. (I beat the rap.)

[Cecil Turner]

I'm not sure about this, but as we used to say as plebes, I'll find out.

It appears to be optional, but encouraged:

While attendance at religious services is optional, midshipmen are reminded that as officers of the naval service, their personal beliefs will often be tested, and that in time of stress their subordinates will look to them for spiritual as well as professional guidance.

I think that's the standard (and has been for some time).

Here's a good overview from both sides: a chaplain who complains he isn't allowed to use "Jesus" in public sermons, and servicemembers saying they're made uncomfortable by others' public professions of faith. And while I'm sure all feel strongly about it, I don't think this has been a serious institutional issue for at least the last quarter-century or so.

(It's far more of an issue on various sports--especially football--teams, in my experience, than in the military.)

[Danube of Thought]

In 1972, a 2-1 decision of the D.C. Circuit held that compulsory services at the acamdemy were unconstitutional, and the SCt declined to review that decision.

My great-nephew entered Navy OCS yesterday. As soon as they let him communicate with the outside world, I'll ask him how these matters are handled at Newport.

[Danube of Thought]

Just got this response from my nephew about his experience at USNA (1986-90):

"It was completely optional, but if one elected to attend I think he could go to town for the service. Definitely didn't have to attend though."

[Cecil Turner]

In 1972, a 2-1 decision of the D.C. Circuit held that compulsory services at the acamdemy were unconstitutional, and the SCt declined to review that decision.

That makes sense. By 1980, when I joined, it was a non-event. There are still the occasional arguments over whether a certain prayer is appropriate at public events--or things like whether those attending prayer breakfasts have an ol' boy club going--but none that I ever saw meriting more than a minor correction by seniors.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Cecil, I'm clearly significantly older than you are. The date you're talking about sounds reasonable, since I would have been touring the Academy in '71. That would also be the time my CAP unit expelled me for lack of Christianity.

And you know what? I do object to being told to pray "in Jesus' name, amen." I put up with it, because it's not worth fussing about, but until the day I hear of Christians not objecting when being asked to make obesiance to Allah and chanting the Gohonzon and the Prajñaparamitahridayasutra, I'm going to continue to think it's out of line for a Chaplin to make a general prayer "in Jesus' name."

[cathyf]

There is a lot of history dating back to colonial times with religious tests for political office and military service. In Maryland, from about 1700 to the ratification of the constitution, in order to serve in the militia or to hold political office a man had to swear an oath affirming to Christian faith and swearing that he did not believe in transubstantiation. Then they taxed Catholics double to make up for their lack up public service. This is where the "no religious test for office" comes from in the constitution.

So there is a long history and this is a core constitutional value of the republic.

[Ralph L]

Very odd that Maryland would have anti-catholic tests--Massachusetts, definitely.

[Cecil Turner]

I'm going to continue to think it's out of line for a Chaplin to make a general prayer "in Jesus' name."

That's fine, and folks can tell him about it if they like (chaplains aren't in charge of dick). I can't get terribly excited about it. Those things tend to be so brief that they can hardly be described as onerous, and to my mind it takes a particularly insensitive soul to complain about such things just because the chaplain du jour doesn't happen to be your brand. But most chaplains don't mention Jesus in the general benedictions. When they do, people often do complain, and in general, they work it out. (And I think in that particular case, the guy had a point when he said it was an optional service for a Christian.)

My point is that's exactly as it should be. Most servicemembers aren't particularly observant, and tend not to be affected by this stuff at all. We don't need more rules, sensitivity training, or to stifle individuals' rights to espouse their own religion (whatever it is). When they go over the line, individual counseling works best.

[sophy]

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