Lexis Mavens Wanted

George McGovern ought to be shot down for this:

If I'd be allowed just one little dig at Senator McCain, since he gave me. I would say, 'John, you were shot down early in the war and spent most of the time in prison. I flew 35 combat missions with a 10-man crew and brought them home safely every time.'

Right.  John Sidney McCain saved a fellow pilot's life in the Forrestal accident, recovered from his own wounds, and was eventually shot down on his 23rd mission in 1967.

What a clown.

Anyway, Lexis-Nexis mavens ought to try and track this down, from McGovern:

Some years ago, I was on one of the networks with former Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, one of the chief architects of the war in Vietnam. But the reason I was on television that night is he had just come out with a new book saying that the war was not only it was a mistake, in his words it was a tragic mistake. Well, in the course of that three-way discussion, which included in addition to Secretary McNamara and myself, Sen. John McCain. And in McCain's first opening remarks, he said, well we all know that George McGovern knows little about national defense. 

I wonder what McCain actually said.  I will guess that McGovern is referring to McNamara's 1999 book, so we are not talking about the mists of antiquity here.  But now I'll guess again - this 1995 discussion included McNamara, McCain, McGovern, and a new book, "In Retrospect: The Tragedy and Lessons of Vietnam".

The truth is out there.

Comments

[cathyf]

Given the appropriate facial expressions, tone of voice, etc., I can easily see McGovern's comments being a genuine expression of admiration for McCain.

(Somebody yesterday posted a comment about McCain as the "typical ugly American tourist" because he parachuted in, stayed in a place geared to Americans, and never left the resort the whole time he was there. In a context where everyone understands that it's the "parachute" rather than the "resort" that is the literal part of the statement, that's clearly an expression of admiration.)

[Sue]

Does Hannity have fact checkers? If not he needs to spend some money hiring some. A man in claiming McCain adopted his black daughter in 2000 in order to appeal to black people. The child was adopted in 1991. Sheesh.

[Sue]

Or 1993. Depending on which source you use.

[Danube of Thought]

I have no knowledge of the incident in question, but Cathyf's speculation certainly resonates with me. McGovern was simply too much of a gentleman to have delivered such a remark as anything other than jocular flattery.

[ben]

If McGovern really said that he is a bigger ass than I thought...different war, different planes, different missions, different anti-aircraft systems, different circumstances,...I guess he wants to claim he was a better pilot because he didn't get shot down, a real cheap shot. What's next? A Vietnamese prison guard who will swear he saw McCain stealing Xmas cookies from other prisoners?

[Porchlight]

Here's part of the 1995 transcript from Lexis - with all copyright credit to Lexis/PBS. I bolded the McCain parts. Sorry for the length.

The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

April 17, 1995, Monday

In Retrospect;
Healing the Wounds?;
Affirmative Action

BYLINE: In New York: ROBERT MAC NEIL; In Washington: JAMES LEHRER; GUESTS: ROBERT McNAMARA, Former Secretary of Defense; GEORGE McGOVERN, Former Democratic Senator; SEN. JOHN McCAIN, [R] Arizona; ROBERT SCHEER, Former Editor, Ramparts Magazine; McGEORGE BUNDY, Former National Security Adviser; RUTH SIMMONS, President-Elect, Smith College; CORRESPONDENT: CHARLAYNE HUNTER- GAULT

LENGTH: 8940 words

[snip of previous discussion and McNamara interview]

FOCUS - HEALING THE WOUNDS?

MR. LEHRER: We'll get four reactions now to what Robert McNamara just said, as well as what he wrote and did. Sen. John McCain, Republican of Arizona, was a navy pilot and prisoner of war in the Vietnam conflict. He just returned from a trip to Vietnam. George McGovern was a Senator from South Dakota and Democratic presidential nominee in 1972. McGeorge Bundy was national security adviser to President Kennedy and Johnson. He's now with the Carnegie Corporation in New York. Robert Scheer, a columnist for the New York Times now, was a founding editor of the anti-war magazine, "Ramparts." George McGovern, what do you think of Mr. McNamara's explanation for wanting to remain silent until now?

GEORGE McGOVERN, Former Democratic Senator: Well, I don't accept the doctrine that there's no place for a principled resignation in the American governing system. This has happened numerous times. I remember clearly when Elliot Richardson resigned as attorney general rather than to carry out a policy in the Nixon administration that he thought was wrong. Having said that, I want to say that I'm glad that Mr. McNamara wrote this book. I think it helps clarify the historical record when one of the chief architects of the war has the courage to say, however late in the day, and it's awfully late, "I was wrong, I had doubts about it at the time, I wish we had never gotten into Vietnam." We haven't heard that yet from Henry Kissinger, who was a key architect of this policy for years after Mr. McNamara left office. Silence from the Kissinger-Nixon camp, who must have known by early 1969 that we should terminate that war.

MR. LEHRER: Sen. McCain, are you glad Robert McNamara wrote this book?

SEN. JOHN McCAIN, [R] Arizona: [Tempe] Not particularly. I think that what has been studied and learned about this issue is pretty well covered again. I believe that it's important for us to try to put to rest and behind us the division and the terrible tragedies associated with the war. And I think that Mr. McNamara's book contributes little. It's 25 years too late, and frankly, we don't need it. I also agree with Sen. McGovern about principled resignations. I remember that Cyrus Vance resigned over a foreign policy disagreement, but in case Sen. McGovern has not read Henry Kissinger's book, Diplomacy, their role and rationale for the way they extracted us from that quagmire is well documented.

MR. McGOVERN: Sen. McCain, if I could just make a quick observation on that, I went to see Mr. Kissinger in March of 1969 at the White House. I had known him before he was appointed by Mr. Nixon. And I said something like this to him: Henry, you folks are not responsible for this war. You've just won an election. You've come into office on a statement that you had a plan to end the war. Why don't you simply announce this war was a mistake and terminate our involvement there? He didn't say the war was worthwhile. What he said is that the domestic political situation wouldn't permit that, that there'd be an upheaval on the part of Mr. Nixon's major backers across the country and that because of domestic political realities that had nothing to do with the realities in Vietnam, we had to stay the course for a time.

MR. LEHRER: Sen. McCain, on that quick answer, and then we're going to come back to McNamara.

SEN. McCAIN: We're not here to debate Henry Kissinger, but the fact is that in his book he states -- and I agree with him -- that we had to get out but we had to get out with some kind of order and we had to get out in a way that would minimize U.S. casualties and not have some kind of rush to the, to the port. So the fact is there was domestic considerations but I think that most military experts, which clearly Sen. McGovern is not, would say that it was a difficult situation and the way we extracted ourselves was the best out of a bad situation. May I quickly add, Sen. McGovern touts his support of the American military men -- I saw him on another program -- Sen. McGovern, those of us in prison did not appreciate it when you said you would go to Hanoi on your knees. We were trying to stay on our feet.

MR. McGOVERN: Sen. McCain, if George McGovern's policies had prevailed, you wouldn't have been in prison in Vietnam, and we wouldn't have had 58,000 young Americans dead in Vietnam.

SEN. McCAIN: If you had been President, I probably would still be there.

[snip]

(The discussion turns to Scheer and Bundy after this, with a couple more comments from the others. I can post it if anyone's interested, I just didn't want to put the whole shebang up at once.)

[Jane]

What's next? A Vietnamese prison guard who will swear he saw McCain stealing Xmas cookies from other prisoners?

A relative of Obama, no doubt.

[Appalled]

I didn't bother to play the you-tube at Tom's link, so I can't tell McGovern's tone of voice. But, in the context of the statement -- which was along the lines of "McCain said I wasn't a military expert, but he was at the bottom of his class at West Point, so he's not either, and oh, by the way, I was a better flyer" -- reeks of pent up resentment. In this case, the resentment goes back 13 years. (Judging the tenor of the conversation Porchlight rescued, I can see why McGovern might have been ticked -- McCain gets in a slightly mean slightly off-topic slam, and then wipes McGovern out with that final bit). Still, keeping the resentment alive for 13 years is NOT staying classy.

[boris]

I played it and while it was "good natured" rather than nasty, it was also very unclassy. Perhaps McCain should have said "but I think that most military experts, which [I am not and] clearly Sen. McGovern is not, ..." because that is the sense of that statement.

The McGovern dig was personal and uncalled for.

[Gmax]

If you had been President, I probably would still be there.

That was certainly the experience with the embassy personnel and one James Carter. McGovern if anything was even more feckless than Carter so I have to believe McCain actually said it about right. Too bad the only person who took McGovern seriously during and since the election of 68 was of course George.

If you dont think his comments about West Point and getting shot down are not well below the dignity of a gentleman, then of course we must disagree.

[Cecil Turner]

Yes, I'd like to see the transcript on this one (you'd think somebody would have an archived copy of that PBS .rm file). But it's also instructive that McGovern doesn't even stay true to his own construction:

But you and I both had these battle experiences, you as a Navy fighter plane, I as an army bomber. I am not going to criticize your war record and your knowledge of national security but I don't want you criticizing mine either.

Of course, McGovern does specifically go on to criticize McCain's war record (rather stupidly), whilst providing a new datapoint that he doesn't understand national defense: an A-4 is not a "fighter" (and the "A" on the front ought to give that away).

Moreover, reading the highlights of that discussion, it seems to me McGovern is still trying to prove himself "right" on Vietnam, and McCain nails it:

But McCain did not see much value in the book at all.

"I believe that it's important for us to try to put to rest and behind us the division and the terrible tragedies associated with the war," McCain said. "And I think that Mr. McNamara's book contributes little. It's 25 years too late, and frankly, we don't need it."

I'd just add that if McNamara really thought as he said he did when he was sending young Americans to the front, he ought to've resigned. The fact that he didn't, and tells such tales years on, is such a moral indictment that it'd be far better (for him) if he was lying. But he's probably not. And any military veteran who lived through that time remembers "McNamara's 100,000" and the perils of allowing Democrat brain-children free rein to practice social engineering in wartime.

In any event, if the Democrats really want to hold up McGovern as their national defense standard-bearer (presumably in an effort to replay the 1972 election), I say "bring it on!"

[Danube of Thought]

I think I have to stand corrected. I went to TM's link and read all of McGovern's remarks to get the context (he was speaking too slowly for me to listen all the way through), and I think he actually meant what he said. It's surprising to me, and somewhat beneath him, I think.

But what would really be an unforgiveable insult in McCain's eyes would be if McGovern had accused him of going to West Point. (I bet he'd have been near the top of his class there.)

[Cecil Turner]

Oh, thanks, porchlight. I see on re-reading that excerpt does appear to have the pertinent passage (i.e., "I think that most military experts, which clearly Sen. McGovern is not"), and as I suspected, McGovern misrepresented it. I also thought the tone of his clip was borderline nasty, especially as it was followed by: "secondly, we've gotta keep McCain out of the White House." (And related cracks about McCain "think[ing] Vietnam was a good idea" and on Iraq.) Unimpressive.

[Gmax]

I took the comment from Appaled without hearing it myself, so I guess McCain graduates from the Naval wing of the West Point Academy? Located in Annapolis?

[daddy]

Who was McGovern's Dem VP Candidate? Was it Thomas Eagleton, the guy with the photos showing him strapped to a hospital gurney and biting into a rolled up towel while electroshocks screamed into his body to cure him of dementia?. How did that DEM VP Candidate avoid being painted as a right wing Neocon, like Ferraro, Lieberman, Al Gore etc? Help me out here folks.

[Walter]

Eagleton died last year. Could be some people don't like to speak ill of those incapable of responding.

[Gmax]

Eagleton had to withdraw when it was learned that he was more than just your average crazy Democrat. Sargent Shriver, father of the gal the Governor of Calif eventually marries, was the final choice. A Kennedy, who mother Eunice Shriver was a distaff member of the bootleggers of Mass.

[Gmax]

Eagleton had to withdraw when it was learned that he was more than just your average crazy Democrat. Sargent Shriver, father of the gal the Governor of Calif eventually marries, was the final choice. A Kennedy, who mother Eunice Shriver was a distaff member of the bootleggers of Mass.

[Brocko Bama]

Why can't I just eat my waffle?

[Danube of Thought]

I just want to concentrate on my salad.

[narciso]

If we're going to go with the snark, I looked up the wiki of the Greenwitch Village bombing that is Ayer's signature; and I come to this conclusion; "those that can't bomb, teach". I mean he ended up nearly taking out his entire cell; with tha added bonus, of getting rid of Kent State's SDS organizer.Maybe that September 11th comment, needs to be read differently,
"More bombs, that go off when and where they're supposed to" I mean if one were a suspicious sort, you would think he did
the Government's work for them; maybe that's the real reason he was never
prosecuted. huh.

Now McGovern, due to his vote on the Gulf of Tonkin resolution, was in part responsible for sending McCain to Yankee
Station aboard the Forrestal, and
consequently,getting him shot down. Now McNamara's 'whiz kids' like CIA Director Deutsch, fmr IRS commissioner Rozell, Les Aspin, were the ones who picked these particular targets.

[Larry]

I see red every time McNamara's name comes up. The very worst, with no close second, Secretary of War/Defense the country has ever had to endure. The freaking war was not a mistake. Ask millions of Cambos and Laotians. What? Oh, right you can't. They all died in the killing fields because our cowardly congress wouldn't live up to our commitment of support for the S Vietnamese, following the totally incompetent conduct of the war by McNamara.

[SukieTawdry]

Recently read factoid about McGovern: he, his wife and all their children voted for Jerry Ford. Apparently, according to Arthur Schlesinger's personal diaries, the Democratic party establishment despised Jimmy Carter and quite a few didn't vote for him. Jackie O voted for John Anderson.

[Larry]

My opinion of those voters just went up. Sukie, say hey to Lotte and Lucy.

[Danube of Thought]

I can understand McCain's sharp attack at McGovern's "I will go to Hanoi" remark. It really turned my stomach at the time, and I can only imagine what it would have meant to me if I had been in McCain's shoes. The very good news was that it was a terminal blow to that poor fool's candidacy.

As between the soft-headed fool McGovern and the iron-brained, invincibly ignorant MacNamara, my choice for Archfiend of All Time is overwhelmingly the latter. For more than forty years now it has been my intention that, if I am conscious when the end comes, my very last breath will be expended on a curse that that bastard's soul roast in hell to eternity.

[Danube of Thought]

And Sukie, by all means don't forget ol' Lucy Brown, not to mention Louie Miller and maybe even Mr. Meier and Jenny Towler.

[boris]

The line forms on the right babe.

[JorgXMcKie]

As I remember, Eisenhower didn't rank that high at West Point. (Of course, he didn't graduate from the 'Navy Wing' either,so he never had much chance of being shot down.)

[M. Simon]

Nice piece on Aircraft Carriers and McCain by P.J. O'Rourke.

Not to be missed.

[fdcol63]

Wesley Clark was valedictorian of his West Point class, then went on to a Rhodes Scholarship at Oxford.

This proves that you can graduate at the top of your class and STILL be a waste of space.

[Davod]

Wesley Clark was valedictorian of his West Point class, then went on to a Rhodes Scholarship at Oxford.

Is that where he met Clinton?

[fdcol63]

Davod,

I don't know whether or not they met at Oxford, but it's possible. Maybe someone else will know for sure.

However, they were both there around the same time frame ... 1968, and they were both from Arkansas.