Maybe J Rock Read About Those Laser Guided Bombs In An Intel Report

Not for the first time Jay Rockefeller manages to be part of an embarrassing story for the Obama campaign.  Currently Rockefeller is denouncing McCain as a callous killer [and has apologized]:

In the Charleston Gazette Sunday, Sen. Jay Rockefeller, D-WV, who has endorsed Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., said that Sen. John McCain "has a temper" and, according to the story, "believes McCain has become insensitive to many human issues.

"McCain was a fighter pilot, who dropped laser-guided missiles from 35,000 feet. He was long gone when they hit. What happened when they [the missiles] get to the ground? He doesn't know. You have to care about the lives of people. McCain never gets into those issues."

Astonishing.  And as the Ace notes:

He also accuses J-Mac of using laser-guided bombs back in 'Nam, which, if true, would mean that John McCain is in fact industrialist genius Tony Stark.

Rockefeller was on stage when Obama got hazy and confused everyone as to who had read the pre-war National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq and voted against the war; we apologized at the time for misunderstanding Barack.

So, the Dem Chair of the Senate Intel Committee thinks we had laser guided weapons in VietNam.  I wonder what else he has gleaned from various intel reports over the years.

Bonus derision - the Clintoinistas were quite proud of their air war over Serbia, which resulted in no US casualties.  Critics, possibly including Rockefeller (as if), noted at the time that the high altitude US bombing minimized US casualties but also limited our effectiveness, thereby increasing casualties among those we were claiming to protect.  Oh, well, now high altitude bombing intended to minimize US casualties is bad.  No worries - if we elect Barack, high altitude bombing will be audacious genius, again.

These Dems are going to talk themselves right out of the White House.

MORE:  Let's run Rockefeller's apology:

U.S. Senator Jay Rockefeller (D-WV) was forced to apologize Tuesday to Republican Presidential candidate John McCain for comments he made about McCain’s military service.

“I have profound respect and appreciate his dedication to our country, and I regret my very poor choice of words,” Rockefeller said in a prepared statement.

...

Later, Obama’s office issued a statement saying Obama “does not agree with what Senator Rockefeller said.”

It was only a short time after that Rockefeller’s statement of apology was issued. “I have a deep respect for John McCain’s honorable and noble service to our country,” Rockefeller said in the statement. “I made an inaccurate and wrong analogy and I have extended by sincere apology to him.”

 

Comments

[TexasToast]

So, the Dem Chair of the Senate Intel Committee thinks we had laser guided weapons in VietNam. I wonder what else he has gleaned from various intel reports over the years.

Probably something really silly like the TelCos need retroactive immunity - or something even sillier like Saddam had WMDs.

[clarice]

From your mouth to God's ears on that last bit,TM.

You don't suppose he actually won the Senate seat by paying off every single voter in W Va do you? (I do.)

[MayBee]

So Obama's spokesperson didn't reuse the "Obama voters don't know who Sen Rockefeller is anyway" excuse? That was a good one.

[Danube of Thought]

I sure as hell wish we'd had them.

[Danube of Thought]

Well, here's one thing Rockefeller had learned from somewhere by October 10, 2002:

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years. We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."

But I guess Bush must have tricked him.

[Topsecretk9]

Maybee

heh.

[boris]

silly like the TelCos need retroactive immunity ...

Been taking logic lessons from cleo apparently. What's silly is that they do need it or they get sued, silly as in outrageous and craven.

[USMCgeezer]

"Thy Will Be Done" quotes Elie Weisel calling Rockerfeller activities in South America a genocide on the local indians. If memory serves helicopters were used to get up close so as to thin out the residents.

[Matthew]

Rockefeller is a dolt. Fighter jets don't normally carry laser guided bombs, now or in 60's! That's what bombers do. Fighter jets engage other jets in the air. Perhaps with air-to-air missiles, etc.

[section9]

Actually, MacNamara was going to arm the A-4 Skyhawk with Photon Torpedoes because he was a big Star Trek fan.

Jesus, is Harry Reid an example of galactic stupidity, or what?

If this were Starship Troopers, Reid would be horsewhipped in front of his regiment for violating Federal Service Stupidity Laws.

[Sue]

Have y'all seen this http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/0,4644,3738,00.html#9_0>picture?

[bgates]

TT - do you think Saddam never had WMD, that he had them but disposed of them according to the terms of the 1991 cease fire, or that he had them and disposed of them improperly?

If the latter, do you think the inspectors' absence of evidence is convincing evidence of absence, or do you think we should have taken Saddam at his word, since he is clearly as trustworthy as a typical Democratic politician?

[Sligobob]

Well, in truth the laser guided bomb was introduced into the Vietnam theatre, but not until 1968, a year after McCain's downing over North Vietnam. Big us in the early 70s. It's all in wiki. Rockefeller remains a reliable idiot, noentheless.

[bgates]

Geraghty is saying McCain was at 4,500 feet when he was shot down. That's low-altitude bombing, which increases American casualties in an effort to increase accuracy and (as a side benefit) decrease civilian casualties.

What was Rockefeller's stance on lobbing cruise missiles into Sudan, Afghanistan, and Iraq?

[nick k]

Tom--

love your stuff. actually USAF -- not Navy Air-- did have TV guided smart bombs several years after John Sidney ejected into that Hanoi lake. John Sidney's 1950s vintage A-4 only had 'dumb' 1,000 lbs iron bombs that had been manufactured in the 1940s. He had to 'glide bomb' the Hanoi power plant -- that was far from civilian targets on an island in the lake -- the plant was ringed with 1960s vintage Soviet made SAM - 2s and radar guided anti-air artillary ("AAA"). The mission was made on the authority of CINC Lyndon Baines Johnson (D-Texas)The AAA won and John Sidney's A-4 Skyhawk lost. In prison, the NVA thugs broke John Sidney's body in order to force a 'confession'of air piracy. Torture works. They then emotionally tortured him by offering early release, in recognition of his father being CINC of all NavAir in the Pacific. John Sidney refused unless every prisoner held longer than he went as well. The NVA declined and beat him and broke his body again. Wow, Jay D is right, John Sidney is a war criminal -- an "Air Pirate" according to Ho Chi Minh and Jane Fonda and his own confession. We need more 'Men' like Jay D. You are a bastard Mr. Rockefeller

[Mike Huggins]

Oh, are we talking about Jay "I took a trip by myself in January of 2002 to Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Syria, and I told each of the heads of state that it was my view that George Bush had already made up his mind to go to war against Iraq — that that was a predetermined set course which had taken shape shortly after 9/11" Rockefeller? "What a maroon."

[nick k]

Apologies--

Navy did use Walleye TV bombs in Vietnam, including on the aforementiaoned Hanoi power plant. Always trust Wikipedia military stuff rather than own memory.

PS: Jay Rockefeller is still a bastard.

[DebinNC]

Is there a strategy at work in the continuing Obama surrogates' McCain insults? Is the goal to get Sen. Hothead to overreact and show his famous temper, while Mr. Cool looks on in bemused amazement?

Obama says that what he lacks in experience is made up for in his superior judgment. I think they want to drive McCain to show bad judgment, which his demand that Obama repudiate Rockefeller does imo.

[GMax]

Democrats dont play well with others. Heck we can see that in the primary. Even worse with a Republican under discussion.

Maybe the Senate dining will need a bunch of timeout tables with little sign above them that read:

"Do not disturb, dining alone today."

[Danube of Thought]

A few points, some of which I believe others have also made:

--McCain's A-4 was an attack aircraft (bomber), not a fighter.

--Fighters do, indeed, carry bombs when the mission calls for it, as they frequently do. The F-4's in Vietnam flew countless thousands of bombing missions. The F-18's and F-15's have been flying them for years, including in the Gulf War and Iraq.

--Without checking Wiki, I do recall pretty clearly that the first "smart" bombs got introduced during the Vietnam war, but unfortunately it was rather late in the game. The ones I remember were the TV guided ones; I don't recall laser-guided ones back then. The difference between smart and dumb was huge: many guys got killed or captured trying to bring down those strategic bridges with iron bombs, flying in the face of almost unbelievable air defense. (I believe, for example, that Berlin was defended by 700 anti-aircraft guns; Hanoi was defended by 2,200.)

The general feeling was that if you were above 15,000 feet you were safe from the AA but terribly exposed to SAM's; if you came down to avoid the SAM's you were at the mercy of the AA. For tactical bombing missions you had no choice, you had to get low if you wanted to deliver on target.

[Sue]

Can you imagine if someone had said this about our pilots during WWII? They would have been hung for treason or at the very least run out of the country club.

[MarkO]

Would someone here make me a list of the people born with good judgment? It's not like having a good arm or perfect pitch. Help me out. I'm all alone.

[bgates]

Deb, I don't know how McCain could "overreact" to somebody telling him he's a cowardly war criminal, short of a Preston Brooks impression.

[Jane]

I don't think anyone should demand anyone apologize for anything. Let people talk. Let them say what they want, and let the people decide. Nothing wrong with a few more people realizing Jay Rockefeller is an idiot - at least in my book.

[JB]

New SurveyUSA PA poll:

http://www.surveyusa.com/

[centralcal]

I agree Jane, about the apology nonsense.

Rockefeller is worse than an idiot.

[DebinNC]

"I don't think anyone should demand anyone apologize for anything. Let people talk. Let them say what they want, and let the people decide."

Exactly.

[Thomas Jackson]

So anyone who has ever fought for his country doesn't care about people. I think Rockefeller is a prime exampleof someone who doesn't give a damn about anyone or anything other than his sorry self.

How can the people of West Virginia put up with this dolt?

[clarice]

Whenever I feel that our "elites" are loathsome traitors, I am reminded that they were at the outset of WWII, too.

[Anon]

Uh the same way they put up with Byrd...

I think it involves a lot of moonshine, and grease.

Gawd-the hatred the Democrats have for the military-it simply oozes outta their pores, it escapes with every other utterance.

[DebinNC]

I'm glad to see McCain has surrogates too:

"The McCain campaign responded through Lt. Col. Orson Swindle, USMC (retired) who served in Vietnam and spent 20 months in a Hanoi prison with McCain. “We know what flying through hell is like and the senator doesn’t,” Swindle told Metronews. “He probably never heard a shot fired in anger unless it was in the backwoods of West Virginia hunting or something like that.”

“He (Rockefeller) doesn’t know a damn thing about the military,” Swindle added.

[Neo]

So, the Dem Chair of the Senate Intel Committee thinks we had laser guided weapons in VietNam.

We did have laser guided bombs in VietNam .. a year after John McCain was shot down.

[DebinNC]

The only military installation located in landlocked West Virginia is a Coast Guard Operations Systems Center.

[michaelt]

The Robert Byrd Coast Guard Operations Systems Center?

[clarice]

I do so hope those words are braodcast over and over through every holler in W Va. It's time they got unbought.

[Barry Dauphin]

So, the Dem Chair of the Senate Intel Committee thinks we had laser guided weapons in VietNam.

Maybe even worse is that the Senate Intel Chair thinks our pilots don't care about "human issues". Maybe he would approve of our pilots jumping out of the planes with knives and pepper spray instead.

[mkultra]

Classic Rovian tactic!

[GMax]

Same ninnies who did not have any outrage and consider it an act of war for Saddam, in violation of the cessation of hostilities agreement , to be firing at our pilots patrolling the northern and southern no fly zones. While their aim was not very good, a lucky shot could have brought down an aircraft. We should have sent a strong message that such nonsense was not to be tolerated, and it would have stopped. But with folks like Baghdad Jim on the Saddam payroll, he was pretty sure he could get away with it.

[Harry Eagar]

Rockefeller doesn't know what he's talking about, but you miss the point -- McCain did drop bombs on people without aiming.

[SteveMG]

Let's see: if you didn't serve in a war yet support our efforts in Iraq, you're a chickenhawk.

If you did serve in a war and supporter the Iraq mission, you're a callous cold-hearted monster.

If you support the Iraq mission but your children don't serve, you're a moral coward with no credibility (your kids too).

If you support the Iraq mission but your children do serve, you're a war monger with no credibility (your kids? maybe, depends on the poll numbers I guess).

There's a pattern here. Let's try to find it.

[NevadaCowboy]

Wasn't Rockefeller on the cover of LIFE magazine back in the sixties? Something about being the most-decorated veteran of the Peace Corps. This guy doesn't know anything about the military, so why is he one of the Intelligence Committee's chairmen? The Dems could have selected any number of other Senators with more intelligence than this clown.

[AST]

Obama seems to repeating this a lot about people who support him. It's getting hard to believe him.

Rockefeller should resign for his anti-military stance and for inexcusable ignorance in a member of the Senate.

[section9]

The Paul Doumier bridge stood without much harm until 1972, when the first flight of laser guided smart bombs brought it down.

The fall of the Paul Doumier bridge heralded the decline of the impenetrability of SAM blankets. The SAM would get one more moment of glory the following year, in the Sinai in the opening week of the Yom Kippur War, but once aircraft could make standoff missile attacks against targets and SAM emplacements, the balance shifted decisively in favor of tactical air.

The development of Stealth Technology merely accentuated the advantage to the attacker.

All this was too late for John McCain and Orson Swindle. Something a pompous windbag like Jay Rockefeller should have considered when he decided to do his Ed Schultz imitation.

The Obama campaign becomes more vicious everyday. This will do them no good in the long run.

[Jane]

Rockefeller doesn't know what he's talking about, but you miss the point -- McCain did drop bombs on people without aiming.

It was a war Harry.

[PeterUK]

Since Syria is a rat run for fighters and arms which have fueled the internal Iraq conflict,did Rockefeller give Syria information which cost Coalition lives? Specifically American lives? There is a name for this.

[narciso]

Well his uncle?? David Rockefeller was an intelligence officer in North Africa (wait
the French didn't bomb us at Pearl Harbor)
and he gave the data on which the targeting
came by. And considering Kasserine Pass, among other, it wasn't very good. Another
associate of Obama, William Ayers didn't stick around for the bomb he was about to place in Ft. Dix;in fact Diana Oughton, screwed up and set the bomb off herself.
Blowing up that Greenwhich Village appt
and Katherine Boudin, walked away in the
confusion. Taking it further, International Petroleum that discovered oil in Kirkuk in 1927; was a subsidiary of Standard Oil, Jay's great grand father's company. And we'll forget ARAMCO's role in building up the Al Sauds; which in turn empowered the
Bin Ladens. He graduates from Princeton in '62, and he ends up in VISTA; knowing that Vietnam another Rockefeller project
was going to start up any minute now. Did
we forget Chase Manhattan's business dealings with Germany into 1942. I know you can only legitimately tar the Bushes with
such activity because they're Republican and tacitly evil. of course. Let's not forget Barry Dunham's other associate Rashid
Khalidi who has encouraged Palestinian attacks; and even in a certain sense, attacks on U.S. personnel.

[DF]

Human issues. I think he's saying that because he's been tortured that he doesn't understand or care about human issues other than, like, ceasing everything in existence cause most humans are a disease and possessed by Lucifer or something,like, they should be sent to Calvary cause they're luciferian.

It's not fair to treat him like this, it's just wrong.

I think the shift from human targets to, like, real expensive buildings and shit in Iran is a good idea. Like, you know, bombing us just cost you 5 trillion dollars and shit.

I'd wonder how much Plame Rocker Feller bought.

[clarice]

IIRC Rockefeller headed the Sen Dem Policy Conference in May 2003 where Munchuasen was the chief speaker and where he and Plame were introduced to Kristof; Jay is widely believed to have been the source of a number of NYT security leaks, esp the NSA "wiretap" story; AND he was behind the plot to politicize the Senate Intel Committee which beforehand had always been operating (responsibly) as a bipartisan operation.

[Da Coyote]

Ah, such comments coming Jay R/ to whom the operation of a light bulb constitute graduate electrical engineering. It makes me proud to know that he is a military expert. It's a shame he didn't join, so that he could have been (secretly) kicked out as was Kerry

[DF]

The military intelligence job was interesting, but he didn't do his work in Latin America, where the best agents are made or poisoned out of the business.

The NSA leaks were probably Plame doing her domestic political group intelligence work. The intell committee probably had alot to do with the funding and planning of the Afghanistan war.

I have to finish my S African wine and brie. Bye.

[M. Simon]

Rockefeller doesn't know what he's talking about, but you miss the point -- McCain did drop bombs on people without aiming.

You sir are a military ignoramus.

Bombs are never dropped without aiming. The purpose of dropping bombs is hitting your target. Any other use is waste and is frowned upon.

In WW2 the ability to aim was poor. Typical CEP was 3 miles for all but the most elite units.

Now a days CEP runs 10 to 30 ft. Depending on conditions.

What ever McCain was doing it was not random bombing. It was aimed. To the best of his ability and the available technology.

[Bill in AZ]

Rockefeller doesn't know what he's talking about, but you miss the point -- McCain did drop bombs on people without aiming.

You should get on back to your homework son... maybe you'll learn about military aircraft when you get older.

[M. Simon]

Bill,

Nice one.

[narciso]

I was reminded of an Alex Cockburn piece in 1999; which reprinted an interview in Granma with the prison psychologist at the Hanoi Hilton, which eerily uses the same terminology as Jay Rockefeller, coincidence.
"callously indifferent, , war criminal"

Actually Nelson, not David got the
intelligence coordinator job in South America; which served in good stead when he ran for Governor. EJ. Epstein, back in his leftist phase, when he wrote "Agency of Fear" blamed Nelson's experience in civic affairs & propaganda as a major reason for the "war on drugs" M. Simon, you'll ratify that point.

[pagar]

"Since Syria is a rat run for fighters and arms which have fueled the internal Iraq conflict,did Rockefeller give Syria information which cost Coalition lives? Specifically American lives? There is a name for this."

Yes there is PeterUK, In fact the founding fathers were so sure that it would come up that it was put in the Constitution as Art III, Sec III

" Section 3.

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. "

Some names just don't mean what they used to, according to Democrats anyway.

[PeterUK]

" McCain did drop bombs on people without aiming"

Since McCain got shot down it is obvious that he was doing too much aiming and not enough flying at 35,000 feet.

[Cecil Turner]

Rockefeller is a blithering idiot (like we actually want our combat pilots to root around in the weeds to give the enemy a fair shot at shooting 'em down?) . . . but there are lots of technical errors in the various posts.

Best I can tell, the first LGB was used operationally in VietNam in 1968 (the year after McCain was shot down). The Walleye TV guided bomb was, however, available from early 1967, and McCain may well have dropped one or two. (They were also easier to employ than LGBs in the early days, before the airborne laser designators became ubiquitous.)

I'd also avoid referencing that post by Morrissey, which is actually pretty clueless. The attack mission (as noted above) is more of light bomber than an escort fighter (though some of that was done, especially for helos), and a low altitude mission is likely a response to a threat or weather, but rarely (or never) designed to limit collateral damage.

McCain did drop bombs on people without aiming.

Dumber than dirt. Hitting something with a bomb is hard. Anyone who thinks they don't aim is too clueless to converse with.

[Orion]

The laser guided bombs we used (late) in Vietnam were extremely crude by today's standards. They were accurate but the launching platform had to fly straight and level over the target to keep the pointer on it.

As for McCain bombing civilians I have to say, "So what? They were the enemy. If they didn't like us bombing them they should have said something to the people in charge on their side. We were there because THEY started it." Yeah, that's callous but that's war.

[pagar]

O/T, but here is another word that the Democrats have declared is no longer acceptable. The Word is MONKEYS.

"Moving to nip in the bud some potential bad press, White House hopeful Barack Obama's campaign persuaded a delegate to step down after she was ticketed for calling her neighbor's African-American children "monkeys." Article

"On Saturday, two neighbor children were playing in the tree next-door to her house.

Ramirez-Sliwinski "came outside and told the children to quit playing in the tree like monkeys. The tree was not on Ramirez-Sliwinski's property," Carpentersville Police Commander Michael Kilbourne said.

Ramirez-Sliwinski admitted she used the word "monkeys," but said she did not intend racism. She said she was only trying to protect them from falling out of the tree.

"Linda Ramirez-Sliwinski said she saw the kids playing in the tree and didn't want them falling out of the tree and getting hurt. She said she calls her own grandchildren 'monkeys,' " Kilbourne said."

The cattle cars will leave for the reeducation centers at 0600, if you have ever called your children or any other children Monkeys, you need to be on them. Do not try to hide~the PC watchers will find you.

[Sue]

Hell, McCain should have piloted one of those boats up the Mekong Delta, shot himself in the ass and video taped it and he would be a hero to the left. Does McCain have a magic hat? That'll shut 'em up.

[Donna V.]

Gawd-the hatred the Democrats have for the military-it simply oozes outta their pores, it escapes with every other utterance.

Which is why the about-face done by Jim Webb still stuns me. I read his excellent Vietnam novel, "Fields of Fire." Webb defended the honor of Vietnam vets when it was fashionable to portray them all as junkies and loose cannons and losers haunted by the My Lais that were portrayed as commonplace events in Vietnam.

And then Webb endorsed "Winter Soldier" Kerry in 2004. When I was watching him today on CSPAN, I kept wondering "Senator, really, honestly, what do you think of the company you're keeping these days? What the hell happened to you?"

[Harold]

We need to remember that the junior senator from West Virginia could not win an election on his own, so his daddy bought him West Virginia so he could have a job and leave home.

[Danube of Thought]

"McCain did drop bombs on people without aiming."

Go fuck yourself, son.

[pagar]

I apologize to M. Simon. I just noticed he had
posted the Obama campaign's no Monkeys story on another thread here at JOM.

[clarice]

That is a spin off from the famous Macaca incident. Macaca's origin is apparently Macaque (a kind of monkey).

[centralcal]

Hey thanks, Clarice, for the explanation of the word Macaca (Macaque).

[M. Simon]

pagar,

No worries. Not every one follows all the threads and you did a nice excerpt. Bravo!

Simon

[narciso]

This is the link I referred to earlier. I thought it was older turns out it was 2004
and Cockburn's associate Jeffrey St. Clair wrote it href* <http://www.counterpunch.org/
stclair11232004.html> My memory was a little
cloudy, but it tracks well with the Barral comments.

[narciso]

http://www.counterpunch.org/stclair11232004.html

[kham]

The point that has been missed is that not only did Rockefeller insult John McCain, but he's effectively insulted every soldier, airman, and sailor who's job it is to deliver ordnance to a target from afar, by essentially labeling them as 'cowards'. And the Democrats wonder why the Military establishment generally votes Republican.

[Barry]

DoT 9:48

Ditto

[kham]

The point that has been missed is that not only did Rockefeller insult John McCain, but he's effectively insulted every soldier, airman, and sailor who's job it is to deliver ordnance to a target from afar, by essentially labeling them as 'cowards'. And the Democrats wonder why the Military establishment generally votes Republican.

[Larry]

Posted by: Danube of Thought | April 08, 2008 at 05:44 PM
USAF F-4C and F4D release parameters for 500, 750, 1000 and 2000 lbers were 450 kts, 45 degrees and 4500 ft above ground. In especially hot areas, we used 60 degrees and 6000 a g. In cold ones and with high drag/napalm 30 deg and 3000 ft. (Real-life with napalm we scraped it off on the tree tops.) The main idea was to keep the plane out of the frag pattern. I had a buddy who got hit with his own 500 lb bomb fragment on a mission we had to drop under a relatively low ceiling. Took the lab weeks to figure out what it was.

"...McCain did drop bombs on people without aiming."
Posted by: Harry Eagar | April 08, 2008 at 07:46 PM I gayrownfawkingtee you McCain did no such thing. Every piece of ordnance that is purposely dropped from a US airplane is AIMED.

I doubt if many bombs have EVER been dropped from 35,000 feet. Even Arc Light.

[Cecil Turner]

Typical A-4 parameters: High angle: 45 deg, 500 knots, 5,000'. Low angle: 10 deg, 450 knots, 5-600'.

[M. Simon]

*

counterpunch.org/stclair11232004

*

[M. Simon]

BTW narciso,

I always thought it was Nixon who ramped up the drug war to punish his political enemies.

That is the first I heard of the Rockefeller connection.

Got links?

[Larry]

Low angle: 10 deg, 450 knots, 5-600'.
Posted by: Cecil Turner | April 08, 2008 at 11:08 PM

Oops. Forgot 10 degree. Think we were sposed to release at 1000, but nobody did that high.

[narciso]

Actually Epstein, really credits Richmond Hopkins, as the real chronicler behind drug fears the whole "vampire" image, than Rockefeller from this chapter excerpted on this site:
<http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/epstein/aof2.html#metatop> than Nixon. I came across this as part of a criminal justice paper on the drug war

[narciso]

http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/epstein/aof2.html#metatop

[blue]

I worked with a pilot that flew bombing missions during the first Persian Gulf War. I will never forget the look on his face when he wondered aloud how many people the bombs he dropped killed.

It was a profoundly sad moment.

Rockefeller is a first class a**hole and an idiot.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

The only military installation located in landlocked West Virginia is a Coast Guard Operations Systems Center.

DoD does have some other stuff in WV, including an NSA installation I lovingly refer to as the Robert C Byrd Memorial Pool of Entropy (a very very good random numbers generator.)

[John D]

Senator Rockefeller is the archetype Democrat politician. In his case he earned his current position by looting the Federal Treasury on the behalf of his constituents, whom he holds in contempt.

Senator Rockefeller earned his money the old fashioned way, he inherited it. Unfortunately, in common with Teddy Kennedy, his family money meant that he never really had to show any talent in order to succeed, and it shows.

He is well known for his stupid remarks. A couple of the better known would be his remarks about support for gun laws, all the while keeping an AR-15 in his Watergate residence in violation of the D.C. regulations.

Then there was that famous remark during the "Hillarycare" push that Americans were going to get universal healthcare even if they have to have it stuffed down their throats.

It looks to me like the good Senator reached his level of incompetence a long, long time ago, but was prevented for reaping the rewards for it by his family's money. An unfortunate, but common occurrence.

[Chill Burger]

This is old news, George McGovern(D-SD) regularly dropped bombs from on-high in WWII and they certainly weren't guided once they exited the plane.

You better jump McGovern's ass too, Rocky, the man is a stone killer.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

I would also like to associate myself completely with the remarks of DoT at 21:48.

And, in addition, I'd like to recommend the analogous treatment for his porcine conveyance.

[Cecil Turner]

"And the pig you rode in on"?

Don't get me wrong, I kinda like it.

[Rick Ballard]

I dunno - now we'll be hearing from the Swine Defense League, sure as shooting.

[Topsecretk9]

Then there was that famous remark during the "Hillarycare" push that Americans were going to get universal healthcare even if they have to have it stuffed down their throats.

Don't forget ...The [Rockefeller] memorandum suggests that Hillary Clinton “use classic opposition research” to attack those who were excluded by the Clinton Administration from Task Force deliberations and to “expose lifestyles, tactics and motives of lobbyists” in order to deflect criticism. Senator Rockefeller also suggested news organizations “are anxious and willing to receive guidance [from the Clinton Administration] on how to time and shape their [news] coverage.”

Bullet #2

[Harry Eagar]

'Every piece of ordnance that is purposely dropped from a US airplane is AIMED.'

Jeebus H. Christ. Aimed bombs missed the target 700-plus times in a row?

How many misses could they have managed if they weren't aiming?

[Laika's Last Woof]

I remember flying across Cambodia in '68 while on the Internet President Nixon was telling us we weren't there, dropping laser-guided bombs. I had to turn my lucky hat sideways to see through the Norden bomb-sight that aimed the laser on my B2 Stealth Bomber.

It's an image that's seared, seared in my memory!

[WV GOP guy]

Clarice--Jay didn't get his seat by buying off EVERY WV voter...but he sure did get it by buying off a lot of them...his original Senate race in 1984 was at the time he most expensive in US history.

In a state where Dems outnumber Reps by 2-1, you just have to buy off enough Dems (or more accurately, Dem bosses) to win elections. Also, WV Dems are the picture of a low information voter; it has literally taken the passing of the Depression generation, and the outflow of most of their Southern WV progeny to NC to make the GOP competitive as they typically voted a straight Democratic ticket from top to bottom.

While Jay's comments reveal his real feelings for the military, his office has usually been pretty good on constituent service for vets and he has been pretty good on veteran's issues generally. He may have contempt for them, but he knows ho keep their votes.

[Topsecretk9]

The point that has been missed is that not only did Rockefeller insult John McCain, but he's effectively insulted every soldier, airman, and sailor who's job it is to deliver ordnance to a target from afar

Seriously kham. The point hasn't been missed. It's implicit I assure you.

[Topsecretk9]

it has literally taken the passing of the Depression generation, and the outflow of most of their Southern WV progeny to NC to make the GOP competitive as they typically voted a straight Democratic ticket from top to bottom.

Can we start a non-profit GOP domestic peace corp? Dems don't need one, they already have Union tools.

[Bill in AZ]

all the while keeping an AR-15 in his Watergate residence

That is absolutely the first and only good thing I have EVER heard about Rockefeller... I bet he had a Springfield 1911 custom (or at least 'loaded') .45 in there too. He is still a whining, simpering pissant.

[Danube of Thought]

For Harry Eagar: Try it yourself.

[Cecil Turner]

Jeebus H. Christ. Aimed bombs missed the target 700-plus times in a row?

Every bomb "misses" by some amount. The probable miss distance (CEP--circular error probable--distance within which 50 percent of the ordnance will land) is a measure of accuracy, and even modern aircraft with dumb bombs manage something in the tens of feet. (Which is why we spend all that money on guided bombs.) A "bullseye" is anything within 20 feet. Back before accurate INS's were available, the wind correction was an educated guess (and a ten knot wind over 10 seconds time of fall for a bomb equates to about 170' of miss--winds at altitude are usually well over ten knots). It was fairly common in WWII for a high altitude level bomber to miss the target when the target was a city. Hitting a ship hundreds of feet long was difficult, even for a dive bomber. Dunno what your 700 times refers to, but if it's a point target, it's hardly inconceivable.

How many misses could they have managed if they weren't aiming?

How many hits have you gotten? Why don't you show us how it's done, smart guy? (By the way, did we mention the enemy fire, which tends to complicate the whole "aiming" exercise?) Doofus.

[Danube of Thought]

Just wondering: has anyone ever heard anything about Rockefeller perhaps having a drinking problem? I haven't, but it sure would explain a great deal.

[kim]

Jeebus, how predictable. Every post I've ever run across with that locution speaks ignorantly from ideology rather than knowledge of facts. Gospel truth, I say, the Gospel.
===================================

[kim]

Drowned in Kool-Aid years ago, DoT. I'm waiting for his indictment over the NSA business. And I'm also hoping the internecine warfare in the Democrats will expose a little of their Yellowcake treachery. See the 'Credible' thread for SWarren talking about a Caroline Glick article about the Syrian bombing. You can google Jerusalem Post, she's down at the lefthand border, 'Covering for Friends'.
===================================

[Topsecretk9]

KIM

You raise an interesting point.

Rock has apparently been the Dem go to guy for dirty Intel deeds (well he and SCHUMER) -- see his memo calling for privacy violations and his role out of NATIONAL COMMAND AUTHTORITY LIAR, Joe F-Troop Wilson.

After all this, he's going with Obama. Hmmm.

And after all this Wilson and Scary Larry are GLUED onto Hillary , Joe and Scary are working for Hillary as if their life depended on it...

...Hmmm

[Daddy]

So according to Senator Rockefeller, John McCain is a contemptable warmonger etc, because he dropped ordnance from long range and obviously didn't care about the people getting blasted below. Well according to my current David McCullough book (and the HBO series), we saw last week how George Washington tasked General Knox to set up mortars on Dorchester Heights, so they could launch poorly guided missiles from 1 to 2 miles at The British troops and ships occupying Boston in 1776. And at 1 to 2 miles, those Tory targets were further away than McCain at 4000 feet when he was pulling the trigger. That being the case, lets be sure to tell the Honorable Senator Rockefeller to add General George Washington and the Continental Artillary to the ranks of the calous warmongers who don't give a damn about people under fire in a target environment during wartime.