Re The "Bill Ayers Never Killed Anyone" Defense

Sorry for the current no-links, but one often sees unrepentant Weatherman Bill Ayers defended with the notion that they planned their bombings to avoid casualties - sort of a "the medium was the message, not the casualties" idea [see UPDATE].  This defense does devalue the Weathermen who blew themselves up while making bombs, and the four people who died in a Weather-related NY bank robbery.

And now the NY Post provides this:

I was only 9 then, the year Ayers' Weathermen tried to murder me.

In February 1970, my father, a New York State Supreme Court justice, was presiding over the trial of the so-called "Panther 21," members of the Black Panther Party indicted in a plot to bomb New York landmarks and department stores. Early on the morning of Feb. 21, as my family slept, three gasoline-filled firebombs exploded at our home on the northern tip of Manhattan, two at the front door and the third tucked neatly under the gas tank of the family car.

I still recall, as though it were a dream, thinking that someone was lifting and dropping my bed as the explosions jolted me awake, and I remember my mother pulling me from the tangle of sheets and running to the kitchen where my father stood. Through the large windows overlooking the yard, all we could see was the bright glow of flames below. We didn't leave our burning house for fear of who might be waiting outside. The same night, bombs were thrown at a police car in Manhattan and two military recruiting stations in Brooklyn. Sunlight, the next morning, revealed three sentences of blood-red graffiti on our sidewalk: Free the Panther 21; The Viet Cong have won; Kill the pigs.

For the next 18 months, I went to school in an unmarked police car. My mother, a schoolteacher, had plainclothes detectives waiting in the faculty lounge all day. My brother saved a few bucks because he didn't have to rent a limo for the senior prom: The NYPD did the driving.

In many ways, the enormity of the attempt to kill my entire family didn't fully hit me until years later, when, a father myself, I was tucking my own 9-year-old John Murtagh into bed.

Though no one was ever caught or tried for the attempt on my family's life, there was never any doubt who was behind it.Only a few weeks after the attack, the New York contingent of the Weathermen blew themselves up making more bombs in a Greenwich Village townhouse.

Weather involvement is not proven, but this ought to be researched (but not by me, right now; sorry [but see UPDATE II]).

My message - the Ayers-Obama connection is much deeper than most people realize - both worked together on the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, an attempt to reform Chicago's public schools, from 1995 to 2001 (or thereabouts).

Obama did not volunteer this link when asked about Ayers in the Philadelphia debate or at his website, although he seemed to allude to it in his Fox News interview by mentioning an education related board on which Obama served with Bill Ayers' father and brother.  But the Chicago Annenberg Challenge is quite different from the Woods Fund of Chicago, where Obama and Ayers overlapped as board members.  Ayers led the founding the the Chicago Annenberg Challenge and Obama was the first chairman, so they had to be working together.  And a bonus angle - public school reform is obviously a hot topic, and Obama's foray into it led nowhere.  Sort of like Hilary with health care, except that mid-90's failure is well known.

Summary here; lots of details and links here.

UPDATE:  As one example of the "never killed anyone" defense, here is The Politico:

But — unlike some other fringe figures of the era — they’re also flatly unrepentant about the bombings they committed in the name of ending the war, defending them on the grounds that they killed no one, except, accidentally, their own members.

Here is the Times profile on Ayers; he is quoted as saying ''I didn't kill innocent people''.

UPDATE II:  Page 98 of "The Way The Wind Blew:A History of the Weather Underground" By Ron Jacobs informs us that the weathermen tried to bomb the Murtagh family.  It also tells us that at that time the Weatherman cells of 3-5 people were dispersed across the country and in only sporadic, irregular contact; Ayers was not in the NYC cell that bombed the Murtaghs and then blew themselves up a few weeks later.  That said, we are also told that each cell was committed to armed action.

 

By odd coincidence, the chapter in which this information appears opens with a discussion of the feminist rift with the Weather Undergound initiated by Robin Morgan, who happens to have been in the news the last few weeks with a new book and a controversial essay reprising the 1970 essay mentioned in the Weatherman book.

Comments

[fdcol63]

Obama and his supporters will shrug, and say:

"Hey .... it's not really terrorism unless someone dies. And even then, all culpability is atoned when the 'alleged' terrorist becomes a respected, tenured professor."

[BumperStickerist]

My Bold Prediction remains that in two weeks time Bill Ayers will have changed his name to "Bill Ularu".

[MayBee]

I think there is just this whole swath of people on the left that think anything tinged with anti-Vietnamness is on the side of angels.
There's no talking to them about John Kerry's Winter Soldiers being full of half-truths, or about the absurdity of Kerry running as the anti-war hero and war hero simultaneously in 2004.
There will be no convincing many of them, I think, that Ayers was really really wrong in the way that Erik Robert Rudolph was.

[Danube of Thought]

But Foo Bar--or was it Appalled?--ensured us that Ayers always phoned in warnings about his bombs. So poor Mr. Murtagh must surely be mistaken. Could've been some right-wing group. Or Bush.

[narciso]

I remember some friends, that I knew back during the '92 campaign, that when I brought
up Bill Clinton's draft dodging, brought up Willy Brandt, the guy who was in exile in Norway, during the Nazi regime; they were of that generation.

[PeterUK]

It is quite obvious,that this wasn't bombing to terrorise,but bombing to educate.Pyrotechnical pedagoguery was the latest thing when Ayers was an militant.

[glasnost]

There will be no convincing many of them, I think, that Ayers was really really wrong in the way that Erik Robert Rudolph was.

In one sense, you're right that probably most Americans are less angry, and therefore perhaps more sympathetic, to the bombing of US military bases in which no one was killed forty years ago in order to protest a widely unpopular war,

than the bombing of medical facilities and the attempted killing of women to oppose controversial medical procedures, ten years ago.

Nevertheless, Ayers was really, really wrong. I don't see a lot of liberals standing up for the right to bomb government facilities. Do you?

So we know. We just don't follow your attempt to impose or imply the alledged conclusion that because Barack Obama entered buildings and spoke words to this guy that he is secretly pro-domestic terrorism. I know, it's a wild leap of faith.

The point is either that ridiculous one, or that Obama is not outraged enough about something most americans are also not outraged about. Which is why this is, as usual, tactically skilled journalism in the service of pointless stupidity.

[Jane]

"Bill Ularu"

A big rock in the middle of nowhere?

[Gmax]

Ularu

Wasn't that a crew member on the Enterprise, boldly going where no man had previously been?

[boris]

Which is why this is, as usual, tactically skilled journalism in the service of pointless stupidity.

As Andy M says: Obama's problem is that these connections are all iterations of an activist, leftwing, America sucks, burn-down-the-house worldview, simmering under the smiley-face of "social justice."

If those things are compatible with the world view of some Americns, then they might consider the focus on those things to be pointless stupidity.

The rest of us ... not so much.

[Jane]

Someone said it recently - Obama isn't outraged. This stuff is all in a days work for him. He's a lefty.

I bet he wasn't outraged at Sept 11 either, at least not after the Sunday Sermon. He's a part of that lefty hating-America-in-its- current-iteration crowd. It's all George Bush's fault. A mere shrug is sufficient - Hey, and didn't that Ayers really stick it to da man?

[Jane]

I didn't realize it was that recent Boris!

[Appalled]

DOT:

I noted that Ayers claimed he always gave warnings with a parenthetical "for what it's worth".

I will stipulate that Ayers and Ollie North both belong in jail.

[narciso]

He's against the Patriot Act; which one can admit was a reaction to the results of the last 'jihad' against domestic security services, against cops, wants to disarm all private firearms; his otherpreacher,Pleuger wan'ts to 'cap em' wants, Has shown a willingness to dialogue with Hamas,Mahmoud,
, and after a 'decent interval' AQ at least the one's who are in Iraq now, 'but weren't there until we got there;* , Mullah Krekar's
Ansar al Islam, Hekmatyar's HI, et al. What more do you need,the proverbial Weatherman.
Dylan's oevre doesn't cut it anymore, so they'd have to call any cell of coffeeclatch
Kosers and Huffer's something else; any ideas?

[Cecil Turner]

I will stipulate that Ayers and Ollie North both belong in jail.

Let's see: Ollie North, war hero, against whom the worst charges (eventually dismissed) were accepting an illegal gratuity, aiding and abetting in the obstruction of a congressional inquiry, and destruction of documents; William Ayers, no redeeming social value, (thankfully incompetent) terrorist bomber. Yep, those are exactly the same.

Ayers belongs in jail, North belongs in Congress (okay, perhaps he's overqualified).

[MayBee]

It's weird that Appalled brought up Ollie North, just as Wright did.

[Barry]

I will stipulate that Ayers and Ollie North both belong in jail.

Mis-direction doesn't work. It is all you seem to have.
Your hero is dirty, and according to his pastor and spiritual mentor of long standing, just another dishonest politician.

[Forbes]

Look, the political Left, back in the late '60s and early '70s, didn't denounce or repudiate the bombings by the Weather Underground--they wanted them to succeed in their efforts to change the political course and direction--so why should the Left denounce or repudiate Ayers and his ilk now?

If a few people died for the cause, well that was the price to be paid.

Moral equivalence, as used by the Left, was just as rampant, then, to justify violence against the government, its institutions and employees, as it is used today by the Left to justify Islamic jihad against the West.

The cause is the same: the defeat of enlightened Western culture and government, and its replacement with Utopian socialism.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Nevertheless, Ayers was really, really wrong. I don't see a lot of liberals standing up for the right to bomb government facilities. Do you?

Well, yes, actually, that's the point. Ayers's participation in planning the bombings, in the bombings, in attempted murders, murders, and felony murders is exactly what is being defended here. We're hearing that Ayers' "isn't so bad", that Obama's extended association with him has no interest, that the whole thing should be over.

It's not.

[Danube of Thought]

"I will stipulate that Ayers and Ollie North both belong in jail."

Stipulate with whom? It takes two to stipulate, and you'll have to start without me.

But if the Obama campaign wants to claim moral equivalence between Ayers and North, I'll help them buy the air time.

[Danube of Thought]

"...your attempt to impose or imply the alledged conclusion that because Barack Obama entered buildings and spoke words to this guy that he is secretly pro-domestic terrorism..."

Huh? Please direct us to the place where such an alleged conclusion was imposed [sic] or implied. "Entered buildings and spoke words?" Really? Doesn't a great deal depend on what the words were? If you know, please tell us; we're all ears.

[Appalled]

MayBee:

Rest assured I am not taking my cues from Wright.

Barry:

Wright is in a class by himself -- I don't think the McCain campaign's acceptance of Oliver North's support is nearly as offensive.

Cecil:

The people of Virginia, fortunately, did not agree with you, sparing my WWII vet father in law a serious bout of apoplexy.

Hero? Not during his White House service. Hmph!

[PeterUK]

The difference between North and Ayers,is that North was a professional.If he had been on the other side, like Ayers, there would have been a large hole instead of Fort Dix.

[Syl]

Michelle on CNN tonite 10pm EDT, Anderson Cooper.

[stan]

Ayers and Dohrn helped incite the riots in Chicago. What were the casualties?

More important than their lack of repentance for their multiple crimes of terror, is their desire to inspire a revolt against this country which continues today. Ayers' web site explains his desire to use education to produce revolution. Obama worked with him on his education goals.

But what is most important is the fact that Obama and the rest of the Democratic Party see Ayers and Dohrn as mainstream. When the majority of Americans understand what so many Democratic leaders are working toward, the party's national electoral chances will evaporate.

[JorgXMcKie]

"Morgan put a log on the fire with her good arm." -- How totally Lefty hypocritical. Doesn't she realize she's offending Mother Gaia? Al Gore should sic the ManBearPig on the Denier!!

"Wright is in a class by himself." Unfortunately, that's untrue, and that's the problem generally for all us and specifically for Obama. There are way too many in that class with Wright, and Ayers in another of them.

And, Appalled, will you stipulate that Sandy Berger and Joe Wilson also belong in jail? (One for purloining and destroying secret documents and the other for outing a CIA agent.)

[RichatUF]

Good afternoon all...

Another aspect to the Bill Ayers is that this is someone that this is the guy that BHO looks for ideas on how to reform education. Stunning that a known traitor is in a position to "train" the next generation of teachers and someone BHO has looked to for guidence in education reform:

graf-

Federal Bureau of Investigation, Foreign Influence Weather Underground Organization (WUO August 20, 1976, p. 121 23. Ibid pp. 15-19. 24 G 17 which would provide the Cuban government with access to political, economic and military intelligence...

Grawthwohl also knew of several individuals who had received training in the use of the AK-47, grenades, or infra-red scopes (used for sniper shooting in darkness). Naomi Jaffe Dionne Donghi, and Corky Benedict [...] 58 members of the WUO who had received guerrilla training in Cuba. WUO leader Bill Ayers told Grathwohl in February, 1970, that contact with other WUO members could be made through the Cuban Embassy in Canada and that a [...] system for communications had been established by the Cubans. The FBI Report also quoted a column by Georgie Anne Geyer and Keyes Beach of October, 1970, which discussed contacts between SDS and the Cuban UN Mission in New York ...

I'm sure that BHO wants to have a conversation about treason (and Soviet sponsored terrorism) during the cold war about as much as he wants to have another conversation on race.

Also, Wrechard at the Belmont Club had an interesting take on the Wright "G-d damn Obama" tour. He looked at as Wright hoisting the Jolly Roger over the DNC (see his comment about 20 down the thread).

[Appalled]

Jorg:

Sandy Berger -- Absolutely.

Joe Wilson -- Not really. I don't stipulate to your version of the facts. (And, I'm not going to argue the point here)

Ayers and Wright are not equivalent for Obama because the nature of the relationship is far different. Ayers had some incidental contact with Obama in the past. Wright was Obama's pastor and an acknowledged influence on Obama's life.

[MikeO]

Obama is a hipster idol. The guy's so cool that he wears a leather jacket and smokes cigarettes. The guy's too cool to show love for country. The guy's too cool for contemporary politics. The guy's so cool that he spouts stick-it-to-the-man Marxist tropes.

He's such a rebel in a teenage angsty kind of way.

I bet that, before they bought their alibi movie tickets, Lyle and Erik Menendez were cool like that, too.

[Ranger]

Ayers had some incidental contact with Obama in the past.

Posted by: Appalled | April 30, 2008 at 04:25 PM

So that is what people call it when you partner up with someone on a project?

The fact that their prefered education reform project was a failure in Chicago, doesn't mean that they weren't partners in it, just that their were either wrong about the effectiveness of the methods they chose, or never to the project seriously in the first place.

[Appalled]

Describe the relationship you find significant. You go back to Tom's links, you find Ayers and Obama are on the board of one of the projects -- along with 30 or so other people. On the other project,we find Obama was a chairman -- from footnote 15 of a lengthy report.

I'm not impressed. You folks are really, really, reaching.

[Cecil Turner]

The people of Virginia, fortunately, did not agree with you . . .

Didn't miss by much, though, did he?

On the other project,we find Obama was a chairman -- from footnote 15 of a lengthy report.

What difference does the footnote number make? Co-founder and first chairman seems a bit cozier than you suggest.

I'm not impressed. You folks are really, really, reaching.

This, from the guy who dragged Ollie North into the discussion?

[Danube of Thought]

Does the fact that the Chairman is identified in a footnote mean he wasn't really the Chairman? Or that he was perhaps a lesser species of Chairman? Had he been identified in boldface in the text, would he have been somewhat more of a Chairman? Jeez, that's really, really reaching...

[Gmax]

You must have missed the point that it was a really lengthy report. I mean really lengthy. And the footnote was in the high teens. High teens I am telling you.

(In other words look over here while the magician hides the coin.)

[Danube of Thought]

From the New York Times:

"More than six in 10 Democratic primary voters who support Mr. Obama in the poll say they would be satisfied if Mrs. Clinton wins the nomination. But among Mrs. Clinton’s supporters, just 49 percent say they would feel satisfied if Mr. Obama wins, while 50 percent would be dissatisfied. Nearly a quarter say they would be very dissatisfied."

Must be the Ayers effect taking hold. Somebody shoulda told the Messiah not to hang out with terrorists.

[Appalled]

CT:

1. Ollie comes into the conversation because I view his contact with McCain pretty similar with Ayers with Obama, except that North's involvement is more recent. Given all the moral rage be expended on this point, an opposing view seemed necessary. (It also might tell you why this issue will go utterly NOWHERE.)

2. I have a car in the shop, which means I can't spend more time on your point 2. But, when you are dealing with these organizations with loads of board members and chairmen, you are talking about a lot of honorary positions where there are a lot of local dignitaries that know squat about what's going on.

3. Hey, the majority of people almost voted for W in 2000. The near-majority isn't always right...

[Danube of Thought]

Yeah. What a stain on poor Bill Clinton's legacy that, unlike W, Bill never won a majority of the votes in a presidential election.

No question, there's a veritable media feeding frenzy over McCain's contacts with North, and there seems to be a genuine consensus that North and Ayers are comparable.

[PeterUK]

Ayers = Terrorist bomber.

North = Free fence obstruction of Congress.

The parallax view.

[Sara]

Heads up:

Michelle Obama To Take On Wright Tonight

on with Anderson Cooper

[Gmax]

What for it I am sure Rev Hagee will come up about any minute now. 3... 2...1...

[Appalled]

OK, in the interests of being helpful to TM on this important issue, and because the shop is not finished with my car:

1. Going to TM's link on the Annenburg Foundation, Ayers name is all over the report, and Obama's appears once, as the recipient of a letter. I haven't read the full report, but I would think if he were active in this project, his name would be featured prominently.

2. Obama's role in this foundation has been discussed. See this blog post, from an education reporter based in Chicago:

First and foremost is the notion that Obama "led" the Chicago Annenberg Challenge in any meaningful way. "As a private citizen, he led Chicago’s portion of the Annenberg Challenge school reform initiative financed by the late philanthropist Walter H. Annenberg—an experience that shaped Mr. Obama’s perspective on the critical importance of principals and teachers."

If he did, it's news to me and a lot of folks in Chicago. I wrote a long report about the CAC in 2001 (From Frontline Leader to Rearguard Action PDF) that failed to unearth Obama's name as anyone of any influence -- and never came across his name in an education context in the following six years during which I wrote a book about school reform in Chicago. Obama gets barely a mention in the Chicago Catalyst magazine, which goes back further and deeper than I do.

I don't mind Hoff and EdWeek delving into Obama's education history, and he's clear in other places that Obama's involvement in education is thin, but the Annenberg angle seems like a reach and I'm surprised none of the folks Hoff talked to told him so.

Of course, this is a bit of a problem for Obama. It seems he has touted his role in this foundation as part of his education experience.

[MikeS]

The equivalence argument is preposterous. If Ollie North was a kidnapper or rapist or even a bomber like Ayers, that wouldn't mitigate Ayers sins in anyway, nor could any bad judgment of McCain's mitigate Obama's bad judgment.

It appears that Obama is ashamed of his relationship with Ayers and has been downplaying it. My question is why would Obama fib about this relationship?

[Sara]

My question is why would Obama fib about this relationship?

My question is, why wouldn't he? Wouldn't you?

I don't understand why anyone would associate with Ayers or his associates knowing their background ... unlesss ... one agreed with Ayers' goals in the first place.

The "I was only 9 years old" argument is unacceptable to me. I wasn't even born yet when Hitler's gas ovens were operating, but that doesn't mean I would welcome any of those Nazi psychopaths into my home today or back when I was 46 or accept a job in one of their "re-education" foundations. Evil is evil and doesn't become less evil with the passing of time.

[MikeS]

why wouldn't he?
Of course. I should have been more clear Sara. I meant why would he take the risks that lying about his relationship would entail.

[Danube of Thought]

The Ayers connection already has all the legs it needs to hurt Obama. If not another fact is uncovered, it is undisputed that Obama's political coming-out fund-raiser was at the house of Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn. That, in and of itself, is enough to have the name "Ayers" included in the list of questionable associations that will come tripping off the tongues of his critics from now until November.

Now close your eyes and imagine "North" mentioned in a sentence critical of McCain.

[Sara]

Black April

Vietnamese refugees refer to the month that South Vietnam fell to the North as Black April. Today is the 33rd anniversary of the fall of Saigon, now called by its masters Ho Chi Minh City.

Let’s see what 33-years of Northern “liberation” has brought to Vietnamese there. From the first 14-days of April 2008:

More ...

[pagar]

"I don't understand why anyone would associate with Ayers or his associates knowing their background ... unlesss ... one agreed with Ayers' goals in the first place."

I agree completely. Every single person who downplays what Ayers and Dohrn did has to know that they are aiding and abetting terrorists.
Even O.J. denied what he was charged with: as far as I can see these two have admitted it-even bragged about it.

[Sara]

Unfortunately, those in the electorate old enough to remember what the violence of the sixties/early seventies was like are more apt to hold Obama's fudging on Ayers to greater account. For those who were children or not even born, it is like us hearing about atrocities and violence of the thirties. Something you see in gangster movies about Al Capone and not anything like what it was like for those who lived thru it live.

My father despised unions because as a young man growing up in a steel town, as a bystander, he was caught in a couple of union riots where people got seriously hurt. To me, unions were something some of my friends' fathers belonged to. I somehow had the sense it was bad, because of my parents' attitude, but couldn't really relate. When I went to work for a newspaper and I was forced to join the Newspaper Guild, my Mother went ballistic. She kept saying, "your father is rolling over in his grave, you cannot work for that company." To her, my name being on a union roster was worse than if she heard I was a terrorist bomber or the ultimate sin, a communist.

[boris]

Ollie comes into the conversation because I view his contact with McCain pretty similar with Ayers with Obama, except that North's involvement is more recent.

More "recent"? Gee is that the only difference you can see? If it is you probably need glasses.

Ollie is more like the NSA issue, where you also come down on the opposite side. On foreign policy the president has more constitutional power than congress. Somehow when the president is a Republican that's just too scary for some. Since I have the same POV regardless of party I claim that my acceptance of North is not partisan. I suspect your enmity is.

[Jane]

Joe Wilson -- Not really. I don't stipulate to your version of the facts. (And, I'm not going to argue the point here)

Why not? It's got as much credibility as bringing up Ollie North - more so in fact because it's a hell of a lot more current. You love building those strawmen appalled.

[Danube of Thought]

It appears that Wilson also lied more than once to congressional investigators, but the man stands so disgraced at this point that he's probably suffered enough.

[Ralph L]

North = Free fence
I remember it as a camera and alarm system, but fencing may have been involved. Wasn't it about $13,000?

[JM Hanes]

Unless somebody comes up with something a whole lot bigger than the Annenburg connection and the Obama debut, I don't don't think the Ayers issue is likely to gain much traction outside of marginally reinforcing the Obama penumbra Andy McCarthy describes. What's really hurting Obama most is that air brush he habitually pulls out whenever he is questioned about controversial figures in his past -- not to mention his own expanding collection of shifting poorly worded pronouncements.

IMO, the big scandal here is that Ayers managed to become the "respected" go-to-guy in Chicago education. Obama could easily have framed his association with Ayers as a matter of choosing your battles, saying that he chose not to open old wounds and reignite a 40 year old fight, in favor of fighting for education reform now. He could even have claimed bonus points as a uniter, not a divider, but he tried to pretend he hardly knew the guy instead -- and managed to turn his own credibility into the issue in the process. Obama pretty obviously chose politics not violence, and I, personally, think that hyping the Weatherman angle almost completely obscures the dangerous possibility that Obama shares Ayers' approach to education.

[Cecil Turner]

Ollie comes into the conversation because I view his contact with McCain pretty similar with Ayers with Obama . . .

The difference isn't in the contact. The difference is that Ollie isn't scum of the earth, and Ayers is. At worst, Ollie inappropriately accepted a security system after having a credible threat against his family (talk about minimally objectionable; and with extenuating circumstances). Ayers bombed (or tried to) innocent civilians to terrorize them (and expressed no remorse afterward).

[Jake]

Since nonprofit board members have to be elected and reelected by other board members, did Obama vote to have Ayers on the relatively small Woods’ board knowing Ayers’ terrorist background and his unrepentant stance on his terrorist background? And since Obama was on the board before Ayers and knew Ayers previously, was it Obama who nominated or recommended Ayres for the board?

While Ayers may not have directly killed anyone, he says he was involved in bombings. Thus, he likely knew of and helped with the bomb making or at least probably conspired with the bomb makers at the townhouse in NY that blew up killing three people, including his girlfriend. Wouldn’t that make him criminally libel for manslaughter or murder? Is there any statue of limitations on this kind of crime?

At the time of 9/11, Obama’s guru, the Reverend Wright, blames America. Obama’s terrorist friend, Ayers, says his bombs weren’t big enough, maybe implying he felt outdone by Osama. Obama intentionally chooses not to ware an American flag lapel pin, which at the time was meant to show support and respect for America under attack and the thousands murdered on 9/11.

Yes, it’s true. Obama would be a different kind of American President.

[MayBee]

saying that he chose not to open old wounds and reignite a 40 year old fight

This particular bombing was in 1970 and we know Obama had contact with Ayers in 1995. That's 25 years apart.

Just for Appalled's context-- the Iran Contra affair was revealed in 1986, which makes it 22 years ago.

Further, the Weather Underground didn't disband until around 1982-- just 14 years before Obama met Ayers.

[troy mcclure]

Yes they were at Annapolis, a decade apart, and they were both in Vietnam. McFarlane's
a more fitting contemporary of McCain, as they arrived in Vietnam around the same time: McCain on Yankee Station, aboard the Oriskany, McFarlane with the 1st Marine deployment to Danang. McCain was opposed to the MEU to Beirut, McFarlane approved of it.
Pointexter, coincidentally, had been with the 1st Marine deployment to Beirut, going
back to '58 (most of these details come from
Robert Timberg's The Nightingale Song)Webb, a contemporary and sparring rival of North, opposed the Beirut operation, the Gulf War
and the Iraq War as well as Somalia.

Ayers, Boudin, Doehrn were as they say;" not antiwar, he was on the other side" They went to Cuba, in order to follow the model set by Guevara. Along the way, he might have followed Carlos Marighela's guidebook to urban insurgency; which ensured the Brazilian juntas survival for at least another decade, led to the Bordaberry regime in Uruguay over the Tupamaros, contributed to the Pinochet coup, over the
MIR, and even El Proceso in Argentina. As they say in the ads;"don't try this at home"
After Greenwich Village, which took out almost the entire cell, The Pentagon bomblet, the bombing of the Math Center in Wisconsin et al; the Weathermen were caput
as was most of the antiwar movement. The latter was strong enough on Capitol Hill to force Cooper-Church (on troop redeployments
from Cambodia), measures from Fulbright, Mansfield, Hughes, et al. Remaining sorties
end with the Brinks Job in '81;where Susan
Rosenberg was nabbed.

[JM Hanes]

Maybee:

I don't think using my 40 years or your 25 particularly changes the point I was making. I can hardly imagine (or remember) any push for change that doesn't require choosing which battles you're going to fight and which ones will get in the way of accomplishing anything at all -- which is why I think the kind of argument I suggested would have served Obama better than the kind of obfuscation he's been offering up.

[Foo Bar]

But Foo Bar--or was it Appalled?--ensured us that Ayers always phoned in warnings about his bombs.

If you don't have the energy to track down which commenter you think it was (and provide a link to the comment as evidence) then you probably shouldn't be assigning responsibility, even tentatively, for the statement.

Thanks.

[Barry]

Foo Bar, are you Appalled at the confusion?

[MayBee]

I don't think using my 40 years or your 25 particularly changes the point I was making.

Oh yes, and I agree. I was meaning to use your comment as a launching point; I wasn't making my point as a rebuttal.

What I'm trying to say is, Obama met Ayers 13 years ago. The 70's were a lot closer in time, then. The 80's closer even still. When we talk about the Weather Underground being so long ago, I just want to remind people that it was less long ago when Obama first interacted with Ayers.

Your rebuttal would be a good one, JMH (of course). If I had to guess, though, I'd guess Obama hadn't a clue (in 1995) who Ayers was nor what the Weathermen had done.

[Soylent Red]

FooBorg:

I thought as part of the Collective all of you were interchangeable. So what difference does it make? You all mouth the same talking points.

[JM Hanes]

Maybee:

I suspect you're probably right in that regard. It ties in with the point DebinNC made about the South Side being "another planet" when she commented that Obama "hasn't experienced "normal America" except as a visiting anthropologist." Those of us of a certain age are going to have to get used to the fact that along with all the other things Obama may represent, he also represents the next wave of political leadership who simply don't share our historical perspective. I remember when I first realized I should be looking for a doctor who is a generation younger than I am, not older!

[JM Hanes]

Soylent:

I think FooBar represents the alt view here a lot more ably than most. You can't really blame him for wanting to disassociate himself from some of drivel that's posted under the progressive banner and from hoping/expecting that we might make that distinction too. Since he's not exactly getting an abundance of support or thanks from either side of the aisle when he wades into the JOM waters, I figure it must be a labor of love.

[ParseThis]

Lots of legitimate grievances here. Someone should start a church.

[MayBee]

Those of us of a certain age are going to have to get used to the fact that along with all the other things Obama may represent, he also represents the next wave of political leadership who simply don't share our historical perspective.

True.
His perspective is different even than just that of someone younger, though. He lived out of the country for some of his youth, and then in Hawaii. Not a typical life at all. I'm sure his memories of the 60's &70's are much different than mine because his exposure was much different.

[Appalled]

Barry:

I expect your confusion is just another Foo Bar.

[Barry]

Nice one, Appalled.

[Gmax]

All progs look alike? They sure do in comment threads!

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

This is rich, the university that employs Bernardine Dohrn thinks Jeremiah Wright is insufficiently patriotic:

At a Dallas church on Sunday, Wright, the former minister of Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago, said NU planned on presenting him with a doctorate in sacred theology. After controversial clips of Wright's sermons were widely disseminated, NU withdrew the offer, according to an article in the Fort Worth Star-Telegram.

"The president of the university called and told me he was withdrawing the degree because I was not patriotic," Wright told the congregation of Friendship-West Baptist Church, the article said.

[DebinNC]

"The president of the university called and told me he was withdrawing the degree because I was not patriotic,"

That will certainly make it into Wright's book. I now envision a Wright the Martyr tour.

[Danube of Thought]

"...then you probably shouldn't be assigning responsibility, even tentatively, for the statement."

I choose to ignore your admonition. The statement was made either by Foo Bar or Appalled.

[Appalled]

DOT:

Guess what! You are 0 for 2. Foo Bar never mentioned the topic. I said Ayers claimed to have warned people and put in a parenthetical (for what it's worth, likely, not much).

Consider checking, next time. Or holding fire. Or at least apologizing graciously?

[Danube of Thought]

"Consider checking, next time. Or holding fire. Or at least apologizing graciously?"

After prayerful consideration, I elect to ignore yet another admonition. And it strikes me that I'm 2 for 2.

[Sue]

Can't we just move on? Move forward? The readers don't care about this divisive stuff. They care about the kids.

[boris]

Well I am not Danube of anything, but I, boris, do hearby apologize on behalf of everybody who concluded that both Appalled and FuBird are blithering ninnies.

I.AM.SO.SORRY for all of us who may have ever given that impression.

[Appalled]

DOT

Then it's fair to say that what matters to you isn't what actually was said, but what you thought somebody said?

How postmodern of you. Though, if you have that attitude in your home, I imagine it would lead to all manner of domestic disputes.

[boris]

We are all just prisoners here of our own device.

[boris]

We can check out any time we like but we can never leave.

[Gmax]

Boris

Thanks for the chuckle.

[Danube of Thought]

"...if you have that attitude in your home, I imagine it would lead to all manner of domestic disputes."

If we ever have a problem, we'll be sure to come to you for free advice.

[kim]

Come now, cherish both Appalled and Foobar. It could be JBG or Jeff. By the way, is there a new Jeff?
======================

[glasater]

We can check out any time we like but we can never leave

Welcome the the Hotel California....eh, JOM:-)

[JesikaFclq]

XXXXX

[battery]

Sir what a wonderful anaylsis and survey you have provided. Keep it up.