He Who Controls The Past Controls The Future

Some Duke academics are trying to re-write the history of the Duke lacrosse debacle; KC Johnson won't let them.

He's outnumbered but they are outgunned.  Sorry, scary metaphor which might alarm the Duke profs; please substitute "they are out-classed".  And Prof. Johnson's alliance with the truth won't hurt his chances either.

My guess is that this tussle will go on for years as the Duke profs continue their revisionism in various sympathetic outlets.

POLITICAL BONUS:  Per Prof. Johnson, Obama was the only Presidential candidate to call for a DoJ investigation of Nifong.

Comments

[MarkO]

My old school continues to embarrass me. Worse yet, we can’t get out of the first round of the NCAA. I had hoped that the trustees would find a way to kick the University President down the road and find new employment for these rather limited professors. What must it be like to attend this school under the direction of these idiots. Terry Sanford would never have permitted it. Even more troubling to me was the lack of clear response from the law school. They, too, must have feared the group of 88. Funny. Why can I see Michelle Obama leading that group? Am I alone?

[sammler]

There was one anachronism in the Social Text article: the authors refer to Duke as an "elite institution". "Formerly elite" would be more accurate.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

When were you there, Mark? I was there '83-91.

[MarkO]

Charlie, I was there from 1971 to 1974. I was in law school. What were you doing, except watching basketball?

[rogera]

Herewith a link to Ms Wahneema's web page:
http://fds.duke.edu/db/aas/WomensStudies/wah

She bears a striking resemblance to Kim Jon Il I think.

[kim]

Silly girl. Tar and featherings are to lynchings as pies in the face are to jihadi beheadings. And she's an endowed professor? Well let's just not say with what she is endowed.
==================================

[Donald]

A gargoyle. She looks like a gargoyle. I'm a lookist.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Computer science grad school.

[Sancho]

"Class" is a construct of the patriarchal, racist, capitalist establishment. Maybe best to stick to guns.

[clarice]

Go to the DIW webpage--I blogged this the other day--the first graph by KC Johnson is the funniest one I can recall reading.

[Curly Smith]

My guess is that this tussle will go on for years

Well, the NYT still has Walter Duranty's Pulitzer for his glowing coverage of Stalin's show trials and the Ukrainian famine. History says that history doesn't matter.

[bgates]

Did the lacrosse debacle change the way any of you Dookies relate to your school, or did you not think much of the place beforehand?

[Appalled]

I'll go slightly OT for a second to share observations on a government building elevator in Atlanta.

1. There was a big poster -- "Happy Cinco de Mayo!". I don't really mind the Mexican restaurants and bars promoting what is, in essence, a Mexican Patriotic Holiday. But, somehow, it's utterly bizarre a Mexican holiday is being celebrated in a US government building. I doubt they do the same for Canada's "Dominion Day".

2. Did you know that this Asian-American of Pacific Descent Month? Did you know there was such a thing?

Now, back to your regularly scheduled commenting.

[Bill in AZ]

Speaking of dredging up the past, Valerie Plame is trying to resurrect her lawsuit...

[MayBee]

"Happy Cinco de Mayo!"

Cinco de Mayo is revered by all Americans because it involves margaritas.

[MarkO]

Did the lacrosse debacle change the way any of you Dookies relate to your school . . .?

Yes. It was as if the entire school had been overrun with the worst kind of unthinking, agenda-driven wusses. Which, apparently, it has been.

To be sure, some of the tenderness to race is a result of this ante-bellum, national school populated mostly with white kids from the northeast. It sits in the most beautiful part of a rather ugly Durham. Durham is still suffering from the War of Northern Aggression. But, the racial tension between the city and the university was, in my day, serious. It must be overwhelming today.

I believe my law school class was either the first or second to have a black student. He was well accepted but he was a lot like Arthur Ashe. He was not Puff Daddy. In my first year, as a job I sorely needed, I had the odd distinction of being the “Assistant Legal Advisor” to the Durham Police Department. I learned a great deal about racial profiling and beating up suspects. Of course, this was only a few years after the passage of the Civil Rights Act and there were still black and white drinking fountains in the city.

All of this played into the University’s visceral belief that these damn white kids had, like their grand-daddies (or someone else’s) once again violated unwilling black women. And, it could have been true. But, the story never made sense and the revealed evidence early on made it clear that there had been no rape and not even a decent strip show.

My personal theory at the time was that Nifong knew nothing would happen to the boys and fully expected Crystal to renege on her story. In the meantime, he thought he could make political hay by going full speed against the white devils. (Yes, I meant that.) He just had to make it to November and then it could unwind, as he had to have known it would. Then, it went horribly wrong and he attempted to manufacture evidence to cover his own rather ample butt.

The University could not have acted in a more cowardly and prejudicial manner. And, apparently, they are still afraid of the gang of 88. So, when my son wanted to go to Duke, I recommended against it. That was a hard day. Almost as hard as watching JJ sit on the Magic’s bench.

[Cecil Turner]

If you haven't already, recommend checking out Prof. Johnson's latest effort: it's a superb overview and a great read. (Thanks, Clarice.)

[Neo]

The "group of 88" have about as much veracity as Dan Rather.

[clarice]

You're welcome, Cecil.

[Hoosierhoops]

There was a big poster -- "Happy Cinco de Mayo!". I don't really mind the Mexican restaurants and bars promoting what is, in essence, a Mexican Patriotic Holiday. But, somehow, it's utterly bizarre a Mexican holiday is being celebrated in a US government building. I doubt they do the same for Canada's "Dominion Day".

2. Did you know that this Asian-American of Pacific Descent Month? Did you know there was such a thing?

Appalled: I'm not offended by a poster in a gov't building...It's got nothing to do with religion..or as maybee says..it's just a drinking holiday. ( although i can't stand margaritas ) It seems harmless to me..
and Asian-American of pacific descent month?
sounds great..but why do they get a whole month? Irish and germans get one day.. probably everybody else gets a day also..i never checked..But if they can come up with anything better than rice wine i'm all for going for the whole month.
You see appalled ( moderate) You might be getting too sensitive to other cultures..
(I'm just play'n with ya ) :)

[cathyf]

My personal theory at the time was that Nifong knew nothing would happen to the boys and fully expected Crystal to renege on her story.

Not my theory at all. I think that Nifong couldn't imagine that the team had not had sex with Mangum, and the DNA tests were just going to sort out who had and hadn't, and then it would be her word against theirs. And so they would plead out (prudent), or the jury would find the evidence was too thin and acquit them (which would be an opportunity for more Nifong grandstanding.) Any which way, it would be a career-enhancing outcome for Nifong.

It was probably a pretty good bet on Nifong's part, too. Mangum turned out to be a prostitute, and under normal circumstances given a half-hundred college-aged men in various stages of inebriation, a couple would have convinced themselves that having sex with a stripper/prostitute was a fun idea. The particular circumstance here was that Mangum had a long history of turning nasty and violent towards random strangers when inebriated, and had been injured a couple of days earlier when she attacked a customer at the strip club that she worked at. As a result of the back injury, she had taken a dose of a muscle relaxant right before she got to the lacrosse party. So when she had a single drink she became falling-down drunk -- and unattractive even to a guy wearing beer goggles. The overdose was probably unintentional -- it's well known that neither a proper dose of muscle relaxant nor a drink or two when taken separately are sufficient to render one more than a bit tipsy, while when combined it's like finishing the whole bottle of booze or taking the whole bottle of pills. Mangum doesn't seem to be the brightest bulb on the string so it is easy to believe that she did this accidentally.

But Nifong had no way of knowing this -- if Mangum hadn't had the recent fight, she wouldn't have been injured. If she hadn't, by chance, had the particular injuries that she had, she wouldn't have been taking a muscle relaxant and wouldn't have become falling-down drunk on a single drink. If she wasn't one of those people who turn ugly and abusive while drunk, she wouldn't have been so unattractive to the lacrosse players -- and she wouldn't have gotten into the fight at the strip club days before.

[hit and run]

I Question the ... Wait, where am I?

Yes, the Duke lacrosse thing has been a staple here.

But Plame wants to revive her lawsuit (as Bill in AZ has long since put in the comments here) and no post of it from Tom?

No post on Plame news?

At JOM?

Again, where am I???

Oh, wait. Sure. I see. Karl Rove is a reader here. And since he is no longer in legal jeopardy, Plame is no longer the cause de rigeur.

I get it. It's a conspiracy.

Eh, but I'm ok with that. I don't mind, really. I'm a Rovebot, afterall -- and even moreso a TM disciple.

Signed,
Dedicated Mongel Horder Since 2006

[Danube of Thought]

As they say in Chapel Hill, Duke sucks.

[Cecil Turner]

Irish and germans get one day.

Give the Irish a month and they'd wreck their livers, the Germans would try to take over the world again at about week 3. Best leave this one alone.

[My conscience would like to go on record as deploring that culturally insensitive remark I just made.]

[troy mcclure]

Good ole' Val, you have to give her points for being this stubborn; although Armitage
and Novak, for their kinship belief in non interventionism; are likely targets. Actually, Aldrich Ames actually outed her some time in the early 90s, probably because of her part in the campaign against
Trotskyite-Anarchists Nov 17; whose first
target, ironically was Agee's onetime associate, Richard Welch. In other memory hole dropping news, Gen.Jay Hood, former administrator at Gitmo, is being 'green balled' similar to black balled, except for the Islamist tinge, from the Liason with the Pakistani military because he was present at the time of the hunger strike, and the "flushed Koran" story. The NY Times
is also shameless, this time with a byline by Alissa Rubin, detailing Salem Abdallah
Al Naji's martyrdom note, theKuwaiti 'guest of Guantanamo, who became "number 32 with a gelignite charge, as such a released detainee who has gone on to commit crimes or be killed for his troubles.

[hit and run]

Cecil:
Give the Irish a month and they'd wreck their livers

Oh, like the Irish need some holiday to wreck their livers...right, TM?

Right?

[Cecil Turner]

Yeah, but that wouldn't just be an excuse, it'd be encouragement.

[hit and run]

DoT:
As they say in Chapel Hill, Duke sucks.

Well, I've only ever been on the UNC campus (Hi GMax!).

I did go to Durham for a conference. But not the Duke campus. Durham was, uh, well, let's just say it's not exactly pretty.

Well, and while I would denounce any suggestion that I am biased against Duke vs my experience in Chapel Hill (Hi, JMax!), mrs hit and run did go to Duke a month before our wedding to visit a friend and ended up having a minor roller blading accident that left a mark or two for our wedding day. That campus! Hurt my bride!

And yet -- it was that visit that ultimately led us to live in NC now.

Scraped knees and peeling scabs and all.

[hit and run]

Cecil:
Yeah, but that wouldn't just be an excuse, it'd be encouragement.

Yikes, I hadn't thought of it as state-sponsored sanctioning.

There probably needs to be a national healthcare initiative to address the overindulgence of alcohol due to national holidays.

I'm surprised Obama hasn't already thought of this.

[Pagar]

Slightly O/T. This is really going to hurt Obama. http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/8121536?MSNHPHCP&GT1=39002">Article

"Blind bowler rolls perfect game in Iowa"

Not only is the bowler blind, he is also 78 yrs old.

[Pagar]

Link

Corrected link, I've had trouble posting all day.

[hit and run]

Heh, Pagar.

My kids went bowling in Nashville a few weeks ago. We weren't with them at the time -- and I haven't been able to obtain their scores - but I'm sure it was >37.

It was a birthday party -- I am still trying to get some pictorial evidence.

I would love to show that my four year old could beat Obama...

And in any event -- the high bowler at that birthday party was the two year old sister of the guest of honor. So, there you go -- a two year old beats the pants off Obama

[sylvia]

I think the whole country is insane that they fell for defending the Duke story and I think I am the only sane one who kept an open mind. We are judging this whole story without ANYONE hearing the version from Crystal Mangum herself - unfiltered through defense lawyers. I have learned from watching many crime shows that defense lawyers have a wide latitude to LIE about what the accuser has said and we have little actual transcripts of her statements.

So I have been waiting eagerly for SOMEONE, anyone, to interview Crystal Mangum these last few months, so that it could help me get a fuller picture and help me make up my mind. But all I hear are the chirping sounds of crickets.

Can we say payoff?!? Now we know why the Duke team needed all those millions - they had to funnel some of it to Crystal to keep her quiet. It further helps me think there was something more to this story. No need to rehash it all, but my all questions have still not been answered. (okay, here's one for old time's sake ...like WHO brought the purse back into the house?)

[cathyf]

We are judging this whole story without ANYONE hearing the version from Crystal Mangum herself - unfiltered through defense lawyers.

Defense lawyers haven't filtered any of this. What's important to realize is that there is no credible evidence that Mangum ever claimed that she was raped. The people who reported that she claimed that she was raped are all proven liars. Of the people who are not proven liars (Kim Roberts, the security guard & police officers who arrested Mangum, the doctor & other ER personnel other than Tara Levicy, the lacrosse players, etc.) they all described Mangum as being unconcious or incoherent or alternately one and the other.

Take, for example, the photo "lineup". The investigators described to the court a lineup procedure which totally violated police procedures and would be expected to create a totally bogus result. All of the discussion of the illegality of the lineup just assumes that it happened. I don't accept that we even know that much. The only people that were there were Mangum and the investigators who are known proven liars. We haven't heard from Mangum, and why should we believe anything that the known proven liars have told us? Sure, maybe Mangum just picked the 3 guys at random from the pile. Or maybe she just sat there staring at the wall and didn't look at the pictures and didn't say anything. There were no credible witnesses present during the photo lineup; we simply have no idea what happened there.

[hit and run]

sylvia:
I think the whole country is insane that they fell for defending the Duke story and I think I am the only sane one

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism sanity.

[Paul Zrimsek]

The implication that Crystal Mangum had only one version is certainly amusing.

[M. Simon]

Durham. Durham is still suffering from the War of Northern Aggression.

Extracting $$$$$$$$ from Yankees is suffering?

They should change their attitude:

Come on down now y'all. Y'heah?

[M. Simon]

Dedicated Mongel Horder Since 2006

So how many Mongrels you got in your basement?

Or perhaps you are into art?

http://horder.deviantart.com/

[sylvia]

"There were no credible witnesses present during the photo lineup; we simply have no idea what happened there."

I agree with you that we don't know what happened there with the line-up and in other situations as we cannot be sure what exactly was said as all were not reliable and I agree that the photo line-up was done with irregularities, hence kiling the whole case from the get-go. So on the whole, I agree with your analysis.

I don't agree that we don't know if Kim Roberts is not a proven liar. I think she is because I think she is the only one who could have brought the purse back into the house - contrary to her statements that she was "looking" for the purse. A lot of the idea against this case was based on Kim Roberts not supporting the accuser, but how do we know Roberts was reliable? Her motive could have been theft.

So although I agree the case could never go forward due to all it's problems, that is not the same as declaring the Duke team inncocent angels worthy of millions of dollars of taxpayer money, and turning their case into a holy patriotic cause. All I wanted to do was wait to hear both sides of the story first. Doesn't look like I'll get my chance for that, though.

[boris]

hear both sides of the story

There first has to be a story for it to have two sides.

[MarkO]

DOT:

"As they say in Chapel Hill, Duke sucks."

They may say it, but, by and large, most of them couldn't read it.

[cathyf]

The implication that Crystal Mangum had only one version is certainly amusing.

I don't see any credible evidence that Mangum had any version. We only have 2nd-3rd-4th-hand reports of what Mangum is purported to have said. Did the people who gave us her hearsay evidence, all proven liars, simply invent these stories and put them in her mouth? (Multiple authorship would certainly explain the ridiculous inconsistencies.)

Everyone seems to assume that if there is a court filing that says that Mangum said X, Y, and Z, that means than Mangum actually said X, Y and Z. Given what we know about the Durham DA's office and PD, I think that is a touchingly naive assumption.

[MayBee]

I don't see any credible evidence that Mangum had any version. We only have 2nd-3rd-4th-hand reports of what Mangum is purported to have said. Did the people who gave us her hearsay evidence, all proven liars, simply invent these stories and put them in her mouth?

That's usually the case, though. Unless someone testifies at trial or gives an interview to the press.

[Cecil Turner]

I don't see any credible evidence that Mangum had any version.

Don't know if it answers the question of what, precisely, her statements consisted of, but the AG report characterizes it as dubious:

The accusing witness’s testimony regarding the alleged assault would have been contradicted by other evidence in the case from numerous sources;

The accusing witness’s testimony regarding the alleged assault and the events leading up to and following the allegations would have been contradicted by significantly different versions of events she told over the past year; [ . . .]

The accusing witness’s credibility would have been suspect based on previous encounters with law enforcement, her medical history and inconsistencies within her statements.

I presume the AG's office (the NC office, not Nifong's) had the originals, and see no reason to question their integrity. She obviously made some accusations, and they were just as obviously unproven.

In any event, the real miscarriage of justice was Nifong's responsibility, and her precise statements aren't critical to making a judgment on that score. Lacking corroboration, his pursuit of a clearly insufficient case amounted to prosecutorial abuse even before he started stacking the deck with various civil rights violations.

[sylvia]

"I presume the AG's office (the NC office, not Nifong's) had the originals, and see no reason to question their integrity."

Uh okay, after the whole country was about to scalp everyone in the Durham police department? I think there was a sufficient motivation for them to want to brush the case under the rug and make it go away at that point. So it's undetermined to us whether they were entirely accurate or not.

"Everyone seems to assume that if there is a court filing that says that Mangum said X, Y, and Z, that means than Mangum actually said X, Y and Z."

Alright Cathyf!! Finally someone seems to get it! You did great analysis on Plame and I see you are doing great analysis on Duke as well. So exactly. Court filings <> reality.

[boris]

A simple explanation for that is Magnum never said anything and there is no "other side" for you to hear. X Y and Z could have been made up according to whatever agenda of the hearsay tellers.

[clarice]

I believe some of the statements may be hearsay but I find it unlikely that they did not have Magnum sign a copy of the original statement they used to initiate the case.

[kim]

She mumbled and rambled in the ER. The rape kit was done for CYA. And here we are; a misfortunate concatenation of circumstances driven by drugs, alcohol, vulgarity, race, sex, gender, and ambition, academic and political. A real witch's brew.
============================

[kim]

I forgot class. Should I be counted absent?
=========

[Cecil Turner]

I think there was a sufficient motivation . . .

There was no motive to change her story, simply because the story she tells doesn't matter (except to her). The NCAG could've whitewashed a righteous accusation by pointing up prosecutor misconduct, if they'd had to. Obviously they didn't. Only logical conclusion is that it wasn't needed.

Similarly, there is no scenario that makes sense of the faulty lineup transcript . . . except an actual faulty lineup. And the "victim's" statements there give a fairly good clue on what her claims were. And they're obviously incorrect. Unless one posits a made-up transcript from the PD (which is implausible on several levels . . . or at least they wouldn't have specified an A/V recorder), then the theory of accuser-as-victim (of an overzealous AG and PD) is not credible.

[Daddy]

As a UNC Tarheel grad (77), the way this bogus investigation changed me was that for the first time forever I found myself, rooting for a Duke sports team---The LaCrosse Boys. (It's almost like confessing to a murder!) My hatred for the rest of Duke however remains intact, so except for a couple good Grateful Dead concerts in Cameron Auditorium the rest of the place can still go to Hell.

[boris]

Well, said the explantaion was simple but didn't claim it was plausible. Let me rewrite the claim ...

Perhaps a reason Magnum has not told a credible, coherent, true fact compatible, consistent story is that one does not exist.

And she has never made a serious attempt even to come up with one. Therefore there is no "other side".

[clarice]

True, Boris, but don't you see, the folks like Sylvia just won't believe that until the defendants are put thru a trial, not being capable of comprehending that the criminal law is not supposed to be like say "American Idol" where we put anyone the prosecutor chooses to the test-- regardless of whether there is probable cause to do so -- and we get to vote on what happens to the poor saps tagged"it".

[JJ]

Ah, so many NC'ers at JOM.

As Lindgren's post notes, one of the main problems is this:

Third, as KC Johnson notes, it was bad form for the professors not to have supported their claims about the blogs with actual citations to the offending posts.

That, similarly, was the main problem with the whole case from the beginning. Lack of real understanding of the need for quotable evidence.

I think Nifong just surfed a wave and wasn't aware until too late how high it would take him before the fall.

Two things still linger though. This same lack of respect for cites that these three profs are STILL engaging in. Second, a legal system that allowed it happen and probably wouldn't have straightened out its mess without the media scrutiny.

So, what do the Duke and UNC law schools teach, eh? The legal force of conventional wisdom?

[sylvia]

Well Clarice, as a lawyer, you realize that we don't just haul up anyone for trial, there are such things as 'grand juries' which are supposed to determine whether there is enough probable cause for an indictment. And the grand jury did in this case. So blame the grand jury if you want to. Or blame the system of the grand jury if you want to.

I would hope that in the future we don't conduct many more trials of indicted figures by public opinion based on defense "facts" fed to the media. Facts such as the defense's paraphrased versions of the accuser's statements. And as we know that the defense can pretty much feed all the lies they want to to the media before trial- for all we know, "paraphrased" may be putting it kindly. Call me crazy, but I hope we actually conduct the trial in a courtroom next time, and give the accuser a chance to speak as well.

[clarice]

Since you insist, Sylvia,that is what I will call you.

[Jane]

Well Clarice, as a lawyer, you realize that we don't just haul up anyone for trial, there are such things as 'grand juries' which are supposed to determine whether there is enough probable cause for an indictment.

Well sadly sylvia, in this case that is precisely what Nifong did, in an effort to get re-elected. And if you think there is anyone to blame, then blame Nifong. Timing of the election required him to shape the "facts" and evidence in such a way that no more will ever be learned.

You might want to revisit the "innocent until proven guilty" meme for further elucidation.

[kim]

As confused as Crystal was, the claim of victimhood, for whatever, even of herself, was also confused, but no less genuine for being confused; I think that cry is being heard here by one with ears best to hear it.
=========================

[JM Hanes]

sylvia:

As we know that the defense prosecution can pretty much feed all the lies they want to to the media grand jury before trial,

I'd say the chances of indicting just about anybody are pretty good. If I were you, I'd worry a whole lot less about defendants lying to the press than about prosecutors like Nifong lying to the court. That part of the story seems to have escaped you entirely -- as does the part where the defendants were convicted in the press before the NC Atty General's investigation exposed the full extent of Nifong's professional and ethical misconduct.

[JM Hanes]

Kim:

When no one was more cynically prepared to exploit any such genuinely confused claim of victimhood than Nifong, it seems doubly confused, if not downright bizarre, for Crystal sympathizers to target the defendants in this case for opprobrium.

[Cecil Turner]

I'm having a hard time seeing Crystal as a sympathetic figure in any event. She may well believe herself a victim. I'm also comfortably persuaded something happened (likely a purely verbal altercation punctuated by cursing and racial epithets on both sides). However, there is exactly zero evidence of anything remotely resembling rape; but there's little or no doubt she made a false accusation of such, and this wasn't her first time trying to make that particular dog hunt. And while I'm somewhat sympathetic to her crappy life, and the increased chances of her being victimized, it does not extend to false criminal accusations.

[clarice]

True,Cecil. I don't know what percentage of complaints to the police are false, but I expect it is a not insignificant number. Add to that the number of cases where there is no evidence of wrongdoing and none likely to show up. That's why we have prosecutors instead of just allowing anyone to file a criminal case--we expect someone with experience and judgement to weed out that dross from the gold before putting citizens to the burden of a criminal defense.
Sylvia knows this.
We've been thu it dozens of times.

[Jane]

The issue above all issues is a dirty prosecutor. If that's going on, we've got nothing in our legal system. Lawyers who lie, in any case, civil or criminal, should be treated very harshly by the law.

[JM Hanes]

Cecil:

What sympathy I might otherwise have had is also pretty much dispelled by the fact that the women who lodge false claims of rape make coming forward all the harder for the women who have, in fact, been violently abused. Men who are falsely accused of rape are genuine victims too, and, as we've just seen, it doesn't necessarily take a conviction to alter such lives irrevocably.

[BarbaraS]

I think the Sylvia is forgetting that no DNA from any lacrosse player was found on Magnum. However the DNA of other men were found. Magnum was so spaced out she proably didn't know what if anything happened that night. I wouldn't presume to say what went on in her mind but whole hard evidence says that no rape occurred at that house that night.

[sylvia]

" think the Sylvia is forgetting that no DNA from any lacrosse player was found on Magnum. However the DNA of other men were found."

Well that was part of all my questions. According to the link Cecil provided above, contrary to LAX player claims, the LAX players lied and there were other guys there at the party besides LAX players. Two according to that story. They were never tested or in the line-up. That fit in with my theory that I had prior that I found it almost impossible that no non-LAX player was at the party, knowing how young guys operate with their posse.

I further theorized, in guy world protocol, that non-group members are usually invited by the top dogs in a pack - hence probably the LAX player that lived there and was the co-captain, whom Crystal identified. I forget his name now - Dave Evans maybe? The DNA of that player was found on the floor near the toilet in the area that Crystal specified, supporting her story that she had oral sex and spit out the semen on the floor there.

And if I recall correctly, the DNA of 4 men was found in Crystal - so her boyfriend, her driver - and two other men. So was the two unknown DNA from the non-LAX members? We'll never know because we were never told by the LAX players who these guys were. If they were innocent, why weren't we told about them? Add the two unknown DNA to the DNA on the floor and that makes three guys. So far the story does not seem impossible to me.

What I was really looking forward to knowing was whether the 10 guys or so who were in the master bedroom were at all correctly ID'd by Crystal. If they were for the most part correctly ID'd, then we would know that she wasn't completely out of it. And we would know who to interview more specifically and who might have seen something. I would have liked to have seen those players who were in the bedroom under oath in court and asked if they ever saw anyone go in the bathroom with the accuser. But I guess we'll never get to hear about that.

[sylvia]

Anyway, since we are on the subject, this is my theory on what could have happened. I think it's possible that Crystal started to engage in consentual oral sex with the resident there. Probably for money. I think this because it would have HAD to have started out consentually, because what guy would force his penis into someone's mouth? He would have to be afraid she'd bite it off.

So it started consentually, but at some point the other guys probably started joking around and joined in and assaulted her from behind sexually or with objects, and perhaps were rough on her and harassed her verbally. They probably thought it was all a big joke. The whole incident must have been quick, under 5 minutes.

She was probably upset that she was treated roughly and made fun of. However, don't forget, Crystal never went to the cops - the cops came to HER. So she would have had to have been a genius to figure to set up the guys by not getting out a car in a Krogers, hence attracting the attention of police, so the police would then ask her if she had been raped, so she could then file a police report. Not likely. The cops asked her how she felt, and she said her "vagina hurt". Which it probably did. They then kept asking her if she was raped and she said yes.

So it was hardly like she went out of her way to get the police involved in this. Not exactly the methods of a financial schemer. If the guys did harass her like that, I suppose in a court of law it could have been rape. Hence why the guys clammed up so well in the investigation. Anyway, I think that's what could have happened, IF something did happen.

[sylvia]

And by the way, all these stories about Crystal changing her story around of the assault, from say 5 guys to 3 guys, and who was standing where and when, came from the DEFENSE. We have no actual transcripts of her comments on this issue. We have no way of knowing at this point and probably never will whether her words were placed in context or not, or were twisted around or not.

[clarice]

It is tiresome to see you continually ignore given , uncontradicted facts and make up stuff which is nowhere in evidence, sylvia.

[kim]

This case has been shadows on the wall from the gitgo. It is selfish to give more meaning to it than it has.
===========================

[Jane]

Sylvia,

you do realize that you are putting your prurient interests before the rights of citizens, right?

[kim]

Well J, but, the particular meaning of selfish I meant was the putting too much of oneself into the whole scene. The meaning for each of us is made manifest in our feeble efforts to interpret the shadows, those cast by our searching fingers, manipulating the mess for meaning. Have you heard enough from me, yet?
==========================

[JM Hanes]

sylvia:

I just think it's passing strange to blame the defendant's lawyers and the press for the fact that this case never went to trial while ignoring the prosecutor whose manifestly fraudulent management ultimately made any trial impossible. Even if there had been a trial, your own inventive theory of the crime is not the theory that would have been tested -- for which, again, you have the prosecutor's corrupt "investigation" to thank. You're essentially suggesting that putting innocent men on trial is a legitimate way to go about discovering if someone else might have committed a crime -- and standing the very principle of due process on its head.

[Richard Aubrey]

The issue isn't rape. The issue is the metanarrative of rich, white, entitled guys preying on poor black women, just like on the plantation. That's why the feminists were so loth to let go of the case, and continued to say "something" happened, and to excoriate the laxers for being foul examples of humanity.
Nobody said "thank God the woman wasn't raped." Because it didn't matter.

There was a real rape there. That metanarrative is not the kind that feminists and radicals like. That is, the violent sexual predation of the black man against white women. The perp was black, the vic was white, it happened at a black fraternity house to....no fuss on campus or in the media or from feminists at all.
That metanarrative was to be hidden.
So a real rape victim is an inconvenience to be swept under a rug.
Nice folks.

[sylvia]

"I just think it's passing strange to blame the defendant's lawyers and the press for the fact that this case never went to trial while ignoring the prosecutor whose manifestly fraudulent management ultimately made any trial impossible."

Well I do think there is a little inherent imbalance in the system in that defense lawyers are allowed to practically lie for their clients- "I know my client is innocent" for example when they know their client is guilty as sin, but the prosecutor is held to a different standard. He is not allowed to say "they are guilty" without a big fuss.

Of course, I can understand as to why this is. So I don't blame the defense lawyers at all for their actions. Instead I think they were well worth the money. I do blame the public however for declaring the boys "innocent" instead of just not 'proven guilty' without a trial and without hearing from the accuser. That in effect negates Crystal Mangum's right to be innocent until proven guilty.

As to lies told by Nifong, I also think that was successfully exaggerated by the defense and turned into a rallying cry by the public. He reported that the DNA didn't match. I don't know that he had a responsibility to report that Crystal had sex with other men, as we all knew she probably had a shady past, but we know that even a prostitute can be raped. Concerned for her privacy, he requested to not be informed by the lab what other DNA she had, so he was not informed and he did not know, and so he answered mostly truthfully when he was asked if he had knowledge of other DNA matches. Again, one could argue that that was not the best method, but I think there was a valid reason behind that, and it still didn't rise to the level of fraud in my opinion, and I think he was unfairly treated by the board and the public.

Again, I do agree that irregularities in the line-up means that the case never should have gone to trial. As the line-up was run by the police, I don't know how much knowledge Nifong had on how it was run, so I don't know how fraudulent he was on that either. One could argue I suppose though, even if he didn't know, he should have known. So I agree that the DA's office was ultimately responsible for the case not going to trial. But I hold the public responsible for turning this into "a cause" it should have never been turned into.

[Jane]

Sylvia,

Here is the classic first year law school question - let me know what you would choose:

What would bother you more: 100 guilty men go free or 1 innocent man goes to prison?

[sylvia]

"What would bother you more: 100 guilty men go free or 1 innocent man goes to prison?"

Well I suppose 1 innocent in prison. Just because I recognize the technical problems with the case, doesn't mean I can't still be bothered how everyone took this up as a cause and seemed to put blinders on. Just like I am bothered by people who think OJ was a poor victim, I am bothered by people who I think exaggerated their response to this case as well.

[boris]

exaggerated their response to this case

The case started as a media circus from the guilty as hell POV. So it was exaggerated toward your take at first.

Then it developed there was no evidence of any crime and lots of "technical problems". That swung the coverage back the other way.

Finally turns out provable crimes were committed against the accused. None of that was more exaggerated than the initial public response against the accused. Of course that is still your position so that exaggeration doesn't offend your delicate sense of fairness.

[battery]

Finally turns out provable crimes were committed against the accused. None of that was more exaggerated than the initial public response against the accused. Of course that is still your position so that exaggeration doesn't offend your delicate sense of fairness.