Michael Kinsley Is Prematurely Dismissive Of Bill Ayers

Writing in TIME, Michael Kinsley bashes Bill Ayers but dismisses the importance of a link between Bill Ayers and Barack Obama:

Years later, Ayers threw a fund-raising party for Obama. They sat together on the board of a community group. Is this association between Obama and these dangerous radicals a scandal? Or is the scandal digging up all this ancient history? Those have been the options in the debate. But the truth is a third option: Ayers and Dohrn are despicable, and yet making an issue of Obama's relationship with them is absurd.

Well, before dismissing it, shouldn't Mr. Kinsley inform himself and his readership as to the full extent of the relationship?  Bill Ayers was instrumental in setting up the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, a project dedicated to public school reform which was launched in January 1995; Barack Obama was the first chairman of the group, and they worked together on it for years.  Let's add that the fundraiser hosted by Ayers was in 1995, at the same time Ayers and Obama were buddying up on the Chicago Annenberg Challenge; they were hardly casual acquaintances.

Also keep in mind - Obama's campaign has been lying by omission about this Ayers-Obama link - their "Fact Check" on the two men failed to disclose this connection.

So why the cover-up?  I don't know.  But I do know that it makes little sense to dismiss a relationship that has not been fully disclosed and is being concealed.  Remember the rule - where there's smoke and a guy with a fire extinguisher, there's fire.

FWIW, I am highly confident we will hear more about this before November 2008.

Comments

[kim]

Why is it that communists always need apologists?
=============================

[Neo]

I timidity of the news media to actually ask questions of Obama belies a future of trouble for Obama.

If Obama loses in the fall, the blame will be in large part will lie at the doorstep of the media giants who spooned over Obama rather than actually doing their jobs.

[ben]

Kinsley thinks Obama should not be linked to "former radicals". How recently should Ayers not be seen stomping on U.S. flags before he is declared a "formal radical"?

[ben]

whoops....former radical that is

[Neo]

Obama must be thinking .. "Who will rid me of this troublesome priest?"

[Ranger]

Hey, Ayers is just a guy who lives in Obama's neighborhood. He doesn't share ideas with him (except for those years they spent together working on the Chicago Annenberg Challenge where they managed to waste $50 million in short order).

[Wilson's a liar]

The problem Obama has is that he has NO ancient history. He won his first election just 12 years ago. His resume is painfully thin. That makes everything and everyone in his short political life fair game. My husband is a huge Obama supporter and he agrees with me on this - if you are running a campaign based on your stellar qualities as a person and not your record as a public official, the public has every right to thoroughly examine your personal relationships and the people you have chosen to associate with.

I guarantee people like Kinsley will be bringing up John McCain's Keating Five history over and over again in this campaign. Now THAT is ancient history.

[Appalled]

My only complaint about Kinsey's article is the identification of Ayers as a "former" radical. He's still a radical. He's merely a "former" terrorist. And, judging on some of JM Hanes' comments a while back, he is a personage we need to worry about, gven his influence in the various education associaitions which may, one of these days, influence what the next generation is taught in school.

But, as it appears that Ayers will be the Valerie Plame of this blog for the next several months, it might be useful to define what level of contact would be truly "bad". My own sense is that I would be alarmed if Ayers is giving Obama substantial advice on education policy, or otherwise mentoring him. Otherwise -- not so much.

[GMax]

Michael Kinsley is always dismissive of anything that makes a Democrat running for office look bad. He and Alan Colmes share a trait, basically the speaker is more predictive of the their reaction than the actual message. I would love to take some quotes from non democrats and put a Democrats name after it by replacement and stick it in front of both of them. Odds are real high the Democrat at the end, makes the statement agreeable to them no matter how antithetical it is them as a general rule.

[Neo]

"formal radical" sounds about right

[GMax]

Yeah if Obama was just taking lunch with Chavez or Medea Benjamin, whats the harm? Ya gotta eat anyway, and who wants to talk about sports all the time anyway!

[Neo]

Yesterday we got this. Today it this.

Yea .. they're a "basket case".

He's got a few spare months before Denver, so let's see Obama talk this to a resolution.

[Porchlight]

Why is it that communists always need apologists?

Even more disturbing is why communists always seem to have apologists when they need them.

[Barney Frank]

Or is the scandal digging up all this ancient history?

Ancient history?
Jeremiah Wright announced his retirement last year so presumably he should disappear down the memory hole as well.
Every time that knothead Kinsley writes something he reconfirms why he should never be let near a keyboard.

[MayBee]

With associates like Bill Ayers and Rev Wright, Obama's lack of support of the Iraq war is hardly surprising or brave, is it?

Don't most of Obama's stated policies actually align with these guys pretty closely?

[MikeS]

Obama and Ayers got together and spent bunches of Annenberg money without improving education in Chicago.
That kind of incompetence in not likely to loose any Democrat votes for Obama. So, I tend to suspect that there is another reason he has not been forthcoming about this issue.

[ben]

"But, as it appears that Ayers will be the Valerie Plame of this blog for the next several months, it might be useful to define what level of contact would be truly "bad""

Obama better find better shills than Appalled. It's not about "contacts", its about judgement. Any association with Ayers, Wright, Rezko, Pfleger, etc. is first and foremost bad judgement. Hanging out at a crackhouse, for example, is bad judgement, even if you are not buying crack. Not that I don't think Obama wasn't buying.

[Rick Ballard]

If BHO was plucked from amongst the Chicago Machine ACORNS by a commie terrorist, then even the "ancient history" of his selection remains of more than passing interest. Who plucked the young Alinskyite from the South Side Machine sewer and hosed him down to be passed off as "fresh" to the suckers comprising his first constituency?

We've had some glimmers concerning the the elder Ayer's connection to the "old" Daley Machine, why should we think that the connections have been broken in the "new" generation?

Kinsley, thou dost protest overmuch.

[Ranger]

But, as it appears that Ayers will be the Valerie Plame of this blog for the next several months, it might be useful to define what level of contact would be truly "bad".

Posted by: Appalled | May 30, 2008 at 10:42 AM

I think Obama set that standard at any "work" contact when he could not have Don Imus work for him. And given that fund-raisers are "work" related for politicians, Ayers holding a fund-raiser for him breaches Obama's own threshhold for acceptable contact.

[sbw]

Appalled: Otherwise -- not so much.

You don't care to understand BHO's executive capabilities? Tcha!

[Buford Gooch]

I hope someone is looking at Obama's college activities. I have no information except his own admission that he sought out far left wing mentors.

[Porchlight]

Ayers didn't just host any old fundraiser, either - he and Dohrn hosted Obama's political debut.

I guess Obama could say that Alice Palmer chose that venue for him, but he still agreed to it. You'd never catch me doing anything in the house of 'former' terrorists - I don't care whose idea it was.

[Mike Volpe]

I personallly think that the best way to tie Obama to Ayers is through the larger political community of Chicago that allows a former terrorist to be such a player. Obama claims to be an outsider in D.C. but in Chicago, Cook County and Springfield he is the ultimate insider, and he did nothing to change the culture of corruption in any of those three governments. In fact, he became a part of the political machine that so defines that culture. That's what I wrote about here...

http://theeprovocateur.blogspot.com/2008/04/ayers-rezko-and-obama-countering.html

and that, in my opinion, is the real story behind Obama's connection to Ayers.

[Bill Arnold]

Remember the rule - where there's smoke and a guy with a fire extinguisher, there's fire.

Or mirrors. Just saying.

[Les Nessman]

"FWIW, I am highly confident we will hear more about this before November 2008."

Not from the McCain campaign, we won't. It's a little too PG-13 for their tastes.

[Neo]

So Ayers is "settled" .. like Anthropogenic Global Warming.

[GMax]

OT Bob Dole did not write a book but he did write an e-mail. WHOA! Seen this? Think McClellan will be able to sit down before the weekend is up?

“There are miserable creatures like you in every administration who don’t have the guts to speak up or quit if there are disagreements with the boss or colleagues,” Dole wrote in a message sent yesterday morning. “No, your type soaks up the benefits of power, revels in the limelight for years, then quits, and spurred on by greed, cashes in with a scathing critique.”

[Pat Curley]

I love this bit:

"If Obama's relationship with Ayers, however tangential, exposes Obama as a radical himself, or at least as a man with terrible judgment, he shares that radicalism or terrible judgment with a comically respectable list of Chicagoans..."

That works for me. Obama has terrible judgment just like that comically respectable list of Chicagoans.

[Cecil Turner]

My own sense is that I would be alarmed if Ayers is giving Obama substantial advice on education policy . . .

My own sense is that is the one area I wouldn't get particularly exercised about. It's Ayers's politics that're objectionable; not his educational theories. And unfortunately for B_O, that appears to be their main point of consensus.

[Appalled]

Cecil:

U'm... I'd worry. In fact, I'd worry a lot

Ayers objectionable politics are the heart and soul of his educational theories.

[JB]

Obama's unfavorables at 52%, very unfavorables jump to 37% in Ras.

The word is getting out despite the MSM's best efforts.

Anyone have a historical perspective on this? 37% v.u. sounds very high.

[stan]

The concern is all the people in the Democratic Party, like Obama and Mayor Daley, who see Ayers and Dohrn as "mainstream". The concern is all the Democrats in Obama's church cheering and celebrating the hatred and viciousness spewed by Wright and Pfleger from the pulpit.

If Obama and so many other Democrats see nothing remarkable or objectionable about people who hate America with such passion, it boggles the mind to wonder how many such people already work in government making policy. Electing Obama would just add that many more.

[centralcal]

Gotta love Bob Dole! I wish more email of this type for Scotty boy.

[Hoosierhoops]

SUSAN SARANDON, who appeared in three films last year and won kudos for her TV movie "Bernard and Doris," is still not a contented soul. She says if John McCain gets elected, she will move to Italy or Canada.

Well if this was American Idol i'd be voting every 10 secs. ( Kids..keep that texting up! but pops our fingers hurt..It's for a good cause children. )

Why Italy and not Iran? a perceived lack of 10 million dollar Villas to choose from?

[JB]

Someone needs to tell Susan: celebrity threats to emigrate are soooo 2000...

[Cecil Turner]

Ayers objectionable politics are the heart and soul of his educational theories.

His theories joins a host of other educational idiocies, and aren't particularly remarkable when viewed amongst 'em. And AFAICT, his efforts with the foundation in question were mostly practical experiments at throwing other people's money at problems. Not particularly laudable, but neither is it a danger to the Republic. His nihilistic brand of socialist anarchy (complete with bomb-throwing in the grand tradition) is another matter entirely. And Barack ain't runnin' for education czar . . .

[Ranger]

It's intereseting that Mr. Kinsley completely missed the fact that Ayers' and Dohrn's "mainstream" status in academia and politics was puchased with Daddy Ayers' money and power. I thought liberals were against that sort of thing. The reason these two are where they are today is because the Chicago political elite was very comfortable to launder thier evil for the right price.

[glasater]

An example of how Ayers could have influenced one shool districts curriculum can be found here.

Text fills in history or Oregon's Racist Acts
Suitable for college students--perhaps. But middle school kids?

[ParseThis]

Rupert Murdoch: "If you read [Obama's] education policy and what it is, it's just great."

Maybe Murdoch should watch more FoxNews or maybe he has. If he saw Obama with Chris Wallace, he would have learned that Obama supports merit pay for teachers -- there's some justice there perhaps.

[ParseThis]

GMax: "I would love to take some quotes from non democrats and put a Democrats name after it by replacement and stick it in front of both of them."

Something like that has been done:

"When told that it was the Republican position, Republican respondents were significantly more likely to support that position than otherwise. ... Put simply: when voters are considering the policy substance offered by the competing parties, the Republican position scarcely wins a majority of its own partisans and loses badly with everyone else. ... Partisanship was a bigger factor in Republican responses. ... The Republicans have a policy problem. It’s the Democrats who seem to have a brand or image problem."

[MikeS]

Kinsley, like all liberals, suffers from tunnel vision. He regards Obama's relationship with Ayers as something separate and distinct, having no connection to anything else.

Other people regard the Ayers relationship as another brush stroke to be added to the big picture of Obama.

At one end of the picture, we have Barack's claims that he is not a liberal. At the other end we have Obama's radically liberal voting record, radically liberal policy proposals, radically liberal friends, radically liberal advisors and radically liberal wife.

[Rick Ballard]

MikeS,

Please join in an effort to promote sustainable commenting (Save The Pixels!) by substituting "commie" in lieu of "radical liberal". There is no discernible difference between the two and thousands of pixels will be saved with each substitution. Your efforts on this matter may help provide a years supply of pixels to a struggling family in South America (a fair trade , shade grown family of course).

Thank you for your consideration.

[ben]

"Ayers objectionable politics are the heart and soul of his educational theories."

Once again, Appalled misses the point. Ayers is a terrorist and flag stomping radical that advocates armed insurrection,etc. The problem is not Ayers, its Obama and the doctrines he appears to find acceptable. We are not voting for Ayers.

[MikeS]

I suppose I should try to do my part for those who are pixely challenged. It's just that radical liberal rolls off my fingertips so easily.

[ben]

"SUSAN SARANDON, who appeared in three films last year and won kudos for her TV movie "Bernard and Doris," is still not a contented soul. She says if John McCain gets elected, she will move to Italy or Canada."

Wow that should get all the frustrated conservatives off the fence and on the McCain bandwagon!!

[Sara]

A very interesting post and observation by Jay Tea at Wizbang. Hint: it has to do with Jack Ryan's withdrawal from the Illinois Senate race over divorce sex scandal which paved the way for Obama's election. Let's say, Chicago politics at work. And Ryan wasn't the first of Obama's opponents that had to withdraw for the same thing.

I Was Against Obama Before I Ever Heard Of Him

[ben]

Also at Wizbang:

"Barack Obama's favorability ratings among white women has declined significantly in recent months, particularly among Democrats and independents, presenting an immediate obstacle for the likely Democratic nominee as he moves to shore up his party's base.

According to a new report by The Pew Research Center for the People & the Press, half of white women now have a negative perception of Obama.

Forty-nine percent of white women view Obama unfavorably, while only 43 percent hold a favorable opinion. In February, 36 percent of these women viewed Obama unfavorably, while 56 percent had a positive perception of the likely Democratic nominee.

Over the same period, Democratic white women's negative view of Obama increased from 21 percent to 35 percent, while their positive view decreased from 72 percent to 60 percent -- roughly the same rate as white women overall."

This has happened despite the MSM's flagrant adulation and support, so the word is getting out somehow.

[Sara]

And then there is this remarkable statement by Obama that smacks of a Chavez or a Castro:

During a fund-raiser in Denver, Obama — a former constitutional law professor at the University of Chicago Law School — was asked what he hoped to accomplish during his first 100 days in office.

“I would call my attorney general in and review every single executive order issued by George Bush and overturn those laws or executive decisions that I feel violate the constitution,” said Obama.

If he did overturn laws he thinks are unconstitutional that would be a gross violation of the Constitution. Our Constitution is very specific about separation of powers and it is Congress who is responsible for making and, if necessary, repealing laws. It is up to the courts to decide if a law is or is not constitutional.

Link

I don't know who is pulling Bambi's strings, but whoever or whatever, there is a dangerous pattern emerging IMHO.

[Appalled]

ben:

I'm not missing the point. I just don't agree with yours.

Ayers has political power in Chicago. Obama used him for his political connections, at a time when it was highly unlikely he was thinking of running for president. In other words, the association shows us that Obama's a Chicago pol, not a leftist looney. (And, frankly, I prefer that Obama knows somthing of playing the game.)

[Jim]

Per Rick's comment, I use few pixels and, given caps likely coming down the pike in about a year, I will trade cash for my unused pixel allowance to any of you.

By the way, you should all expect to wear a little high-tech clip-on CO2 monitor on your cheek, 24/7, to monitor carbon output from your oral cavity and nostrils. These emissions will be measured and capped. (Advice: practice shallow breathing to trade your allowance for cash.) Any citizen exceeding monthly CO2 orifice emission allowance - an event marked by urgent beeping by the cheek-mounted device and initiated via satellite by Washington - will be required to cease breathing until allowance is replenished at beginning of next month.

[PeterUK]

"My only complaint about Kinsey's article is the identification of Ayers as a "former" radical. He's still a radical. He's merely a "former" terrorist."

The word dormant is better.Ayers is a dormant terrorist.

[kim]

Yet another reason to become a yoga adept, Jim. Thanks, I'll work on it.
===============

[ben]

"In other words, the association shows us that Obama's a Chicago pol, not a leftist looney. (And, frankly, I prefer that Obama knows somthing of playing the game.)"

This would only be true if Obama was unaware that Ayers was a terrorist bomber, which I very much doubt. The same point is made that Obama was only "using Wright's church". You are trying to say that Obama sought out leftist radicals in college (by his own admission) and Ayers the terrorist bomber who is still stomping on US flags and preachers who spewed anti-American hatred for decades in order to use them for political purposes, and deep-down he didnt believe their message..Hahaha, surely you jest, nobody is that naive.

[LindaK]

The Ayers connection is very important to Obama's rise to power. Bill Ayers' father is Thomas Ayers who was the Chairman/CEO of Commonwealth Edison, which BTW used Sidley & Austin as outhouse counsel. The elder Ayers was responsible for the redemptions of Bill and Bernadine and getting them back in the system, so to speak. Did he get BO on track in Chicago? So this makes the Ayers-BO connection much tighter than just a retired terrorist in my nabe riff.

The other thing that's interesting is that a final report on the failed Chicago Annenberg Challenge doesn't mention BO. Is that not odd? Sorry no link but if you google Annenberg challenge Obama it pops right up.

[PeterUK]

"But, as it appears that Ayers will be the Valerie Plame of this blog for the next several months,"

Radical, dormant terrorist and cross dresser?

[ben]

"...He's merely a "former" terrorist."

Can you be a former "mass murderer" also? If you rape children and retire are you a "former child molester"?

[Gmax]

Leftist looney. Which part of that construct dont you agree with?

He is most definitely a leftist, perhaps a closet radical perhaps not, but he sure keeps company with them all the way back to Hawaii.

So is he looney or just calculating? I might buy calculating leftist. That probably would get my vote.

[Cecil Turner]

In other words, the association shows us that Obama's a Chicago pol, not a leftist looney.

If it were only the one way, that might be correct, he might be using him. (Not that that is exactly praiseworthy.) But surely Ayers sees something in Obama, eh? And something tells me it's not a confluence of forward-looking educational theories.

[Appalled]

Ben:

Lenin was all for using capitalists to his ends. (They were, after all, useful idiots.) Does that make him a capitalist? I suggest you pay attention to LindaK's argument -- which is likely most of the key to the mystery.

LindaK:

Obama's name turns up in a footnote in that report. There's a lot suggesting that Obama did not do much as chairman -- this was more an honorary position. (You can find the links in TM's earlier posts on this subject.)

[glasater]

ACORN at Work in Washington State.

This quote is a dandy:

One defendant "said it was hard work making up all those cards," and another "said he would often sit at home, smoke marijuana and fill out cards,"

I know Sec of State Sam Reed personally and at the last meeting he said he is getting sued by this organization all the time.

[Gmax]

Obama's unfavorables at 52%, very unfavorables jump to 37% in Ras.

The word is getting out despite the MSM's best efforts.

Anyone have a historical perspective on this? 37% v.u. sounds very high.

 Here is some historical perspective, Obama has now climbed in unfavorables to equal Hill.

 In a two person race, you cant get elected dog catcher when over half the people think unfavorably of you. 



 

[Rick Ballard]

"And, frankly, I prefer that Obama knows somthing of playing the game."

Somehow I don't find much comfort in the fact that he knows all the girls by name and is well liked by the piano player at Aunt Sally's Place.

I can buy the argument that he was cynical enough to gull someone like Ayers with his ACORN stint - he's certainly a big enough suck up to pull that off. The Right Racist Reverend Wright and Fr. Pfleger are birds of a different feather.

I have to admit that I doubt that BHO sleeps with a copy of Mao's little Red Book under his pillow. My bet is that threre's no room left since he started stuffing passbooks and cash under it.

[ben]

(And, frankly, I prefer that Obama knows somthing of playing the game.)

Translating, Appalled thinks there is some benefit for America that Obama was supposedly adept at the dirty and corrupt politics of Chicago. I think McCain might have to concede that category, you can't win them all.

[Elliott]

My emphasis added entry for quote of the day from Jack Nicklaus, Jr., chairman of the Memorial Tournament (this week's PGA Tour event), who doubtless will be receiving shortly an invitation to testify before Congress:

...there's a lot of, uh, Ohio representation in, uh, in Iraq and Iran right now. And, uh, we had a military appreciation day on Tuesday. We had, actually we had three generals here and, uh, forty-five soldiers that, uh, had just gotten back from overseas. And, uh, it was actually quite nice. Uh, we all went over and said hello to 'em and honored them at our ceremony, the Memorial ceremony.

[ben]

Ben:

"Lenin was all for using capitalists to his ends."

Maybe, and probably Lenin really needed them. But in America, you don't really need to associate with terrorist bombers, communists, anti-American zealots, and inner city crooks to get ahead in politics. If Obama did associate with these people I would venture that ideological compatibility came first, friendship and assistance later. You really think Ayers would have helped a Young Republican? You are really digging yourself a hole with this "Obama was smart to use communists to further himself" argument, I don't think its a winner for the general election.

[Elliott]

by the piano player at Aunt Sally's Place.

Mister, I met a mantra once when I was a kid.

[LindaK]

A footnote. My point Appalled. Since BO has nothing else to crow about CAC becomes the major resume filler.

It's dismaying to read some of the MSM press about BO's alleged accomplishments with CAC. They take every piece of pro BO propaganda at face value.

[ben]

"There's a lot suggesting that Obama did not do much as chairman..."

Yes, he didn't do much as chairman, as state senator or as US senator....it's a pattern....but of course us doubting thomases should take a small leap of faith and try him out as President, lest that be the only position in which he can excel.

[Appalled]

Cecil:

Good question you ask there. Unfortunately, the web does not seem to be answering the question. (For example, I cannot find an endorsement of Obama by Ayers anywhere -- all his blogspot seems to be devoted to a passionate examination of his navel, and his lament that everyone wants him to apologize.)

It does strike me that Ayers would be an easy man to fool, and I'm sure he's the type to play benevolent liberal white man to the well-spoken (but authentic) black fellow.

[Gmax]

Well of all the commentary I have no one has focused in on Father Phelger and what impact he will have on Catholic voters. Now I am sure some leftie will be along shortly to tell us once again, like with Rev Wright, that this is a good thing and helps Obama. Everything helps Obama, despite the polls showing him drifting down from anointed to behind to soon not very competitive.

Here is a perspective though that I think will likely get some traction with portions of the Catholic community. Catholics dont like their priests to be activists in this manner. They dont like hearing political ads from the pulpit.

Now its been cryptic so far, but Father Phleger resigned from the committee "Catholics for Obama" a couple of weeks ago. I am reading between the lines, but I think the Bishop ( who is a Cardinal ) had told his priest to get off the committee and keep his political views to himself and spend more time in the Parish. I can tell you that petitions are circulating and many Catholics are outraged. The Cardinal probably put his phone on hold to keep it from constantly ringing. He is going to hear it from parishioners in his Diocese, Catholics nationwide, other Bishops who are getting it from their parishioners and maybe even the Vatican if they get wind of this. It can not be ignored and he will have to do something.

He might ( emphasis on might not will ) decide to make some example of Father Phleger. If it happens, it will get play and none of that plays to Obama advantage with swing Catholic voters, who can turn Pennsylvania and Michigan and Wisconsin all by themselves. At a minimum the Cardinal is going to have to issue some kind of statment just so he can use his office phone.

Hide and watch

[ben]

"It does strike me that Ayers would be an easy man to fool, and I'm sure he's the type to play benevolent liberal white man to the well-spoken (but authentic) black fellow."

Oh puhhhleaase....give me a break. He played benevolent white liberal to the well spoken authentic black radical.

[Sara]

gmax, this morning Fox had on Father Morris (memory fuzzy if the name is right). Anyway, he is a familiar figure as the Fox voice at the Vatican and frequent Fox commentator on matters of interest to the Catholic church (he anchored the Papal funeral and also the chimney watch for a new Pope and was a frequent commentator during the pedophile priest scandals). So I think the Vatican is already aware.

[Gmax]

Michael Kinsley and Appalled make similar dismissals. Imagine that.

[Sara]

I should make it clear, he was commenting from the Vatican, not somewhere in America.

[ben]

(For example, I cannot find an endorsement of Obama by Ayers anywhere")

Duhhhhhhh, now why would that be???
Could it be, for example, for the same reason Obama removed the Wright and Pfleger testimonials from his website??? nahh......

[Sara]

gmax, you might find this interesting:

Pfleger to Catholic Church in 1992: “[H]ave the balls to fire me”

[Gmax]

I can tell you the Pope Benedict does not like activist priests, and took strong steps against Liberation Theology ( the same stuff that is preached weekly at Trinity only with Black stuck on the front ) when he was working under Pope John Paul.

Bishops across the US have been more assertive with politicians taking positions that are 180 degrees against the Church's teaching, to the point of directing some of these politicians to not attempt to take communion while they adher to those positions.

I wont be surprised if Phleger doesnt get a very public rebuke. He could end up with a Belize assignment for his efforts but I am not sure they will want to stir up his parish, just to mollify the rest of the Diocese. But they will have to take some action, the potential impact on donations will not be missed.

[Appalled]

Speaking as a Catholic, I agree with gmax on Phleger. I think a better posting for him, however, would be some place in Manitoba. Belize has some great beaches. Manitoba's oceanfront hasn't been thawed out by global warming yet...

So I agree with gmax and Kinsley in the same thread. Just can't seem to find a way to agreee with Ben....

[Gmax]

OH thanks. And I was right, in fact its already happened. Here is the statement from the Archbishop of Chicago, Francise Cardinal George :

"The Catholic Church does not endorse political candidates. Consequently, while a priest must speak to political issues that are also moral, he may not endorse candidates nor engage in partisan campaigning. "Racial issues are both political and moral and are also highly charged. Words can be differently interpreted, but Fr. Pfleger’s remarks about Senator Clinton are both partisan and amount to a personal attack. I regret that deeply. "To avoid months of turmoil in the church, Fr. Pfleger has promised me that he will not enter into campaigning, will not publicly mention any candidate by name and will abide by the discipline common to all catholic priests."

[Gmax]

He left off the "or else" that I am sure was relayed verbally to Father Phleger, in this for the public rebuke. It was spoken slowly and firmly, I doubt he missed its intent. You have probably seen the last of Phleger for awhile, unless he is itching to getting defrocked.

[ben]

"Michael Kinsley and Appalled make similar dismissals. Imagine that."

Very clever actually. Appalled is using Kinsley in the hope Kinsley will take the well spoken (but authentic) liberal under his wing.

[centralcal]

Pfleger won't get defrocked, but he might get reassigned.

Going off topic - anyone here see the post by Jim Geraghty re:Obama's first foray into meeting with the 2002 black caucus?

Oh my golly, miss molly, whazza goin on in dem caucusi?????

LUN

[ben]

"Just can't seem to find a way to agreee with Ben...."

Well we can agree that Obama was (and is) a far leftist who associated with other far leftists to get ahead. We can't agree that he was just a middle of the road aspiring politician using terrorists bombers and radical clergymen and "fooling them" for his own purposes. I don't want to feather my own hat, so to speak, but I would bet my version is more believable than yours in 99 out of 100 focus groups, I will give you the south side of Chicago focus group.

[Gmax]

The TUCC focus group to be more specific.

[Barney Frank]

Ayers has political power in Chicago. Obama used him for his political connections, at a time when it was highly unlikely he was thinking of running for president.

Hasn't BO been planning his run since kindergarden?

In other words, the association shows us that Obama's a Chicago pol, not and a leftist looney.

Perhaps a little closer to the truth? They're not mutually exclusive after all.

[PeterUK]

"To avoid months of turmoil in the church, Fr. Pfleger has promised me that he will not enter into campaigning, will not publicly mention any candidate by name....."

There are other means of identification.There are superficicial differences between Hillary and Barry.

[Jane]

Fr. Pfleger is not doing the Catholic Church any favors. I hope the backlash is big and loud.

All these attempt by the democrats to sound religious sure is backfiring.

[Sara]

I didn't think I lived that sheltered a life. I've certainly known my share of unsavory characters and sociopaths who would trample their own grandmother to get ahead. But I wonder if there are others out there who are really shocked to learn of the amount of hate and the shocking call for revenge against whites?

If it is all for show and to try to make me feel white guilt, it is having the exact opposite effect. So much hate frightens me, calls to do something about indignities of over a hundred years ago scare me even more, having lived thru the riots of the 60s.

This talk of entitlement really upsets me. Who that is white in this country has felt entitled to anything once affirmative action became the norm.

I knew the older civil rights leaders hate us to their core, but I had no idea that they've bred this hate into their youth and in today's culture of hate and violence, it has such fertile ground and is so encouraged by preachers, politicians and their associates and spouses. I'm beginning to think that being white in Obamaland is a darn scary place to be.

[ben]

"To avoid months of turmoil in the church, Fr. Pfleger has promised me that he will not enter into campaigning, will not publicly mention any candidate by name....."

He will have to refrain from using "Messiah"....and the (Hilda)Beast of the Apocalypse....

[Rick Ballard]

"I'm beginning to think that being white in Obamaland is a darn scary place to be."

Well, it's about 99.7% theater (and very bad theater at that) so "fear" isn't on for me. Consider the pond scum Ayers - once his buddies elevated themselves unexpectedly, he dropped the "mad bomber" schtick and sold himself by waving their bloody shirt around. IOW, he showed the true cowardice of his lack of conviction, just like the vast majority of the 13%ers.

The TUCC clown show (and its cousin at St Sabina) pay the performers. In Wright's case they pay damn good money, just like Jackson and Sharpton collect. In Fr. Pfleger's case, the pay is in a different coin and I hope that the church sends him off to somewhere far away after the election. He's too good a show to get the hook prior to the election - he'll cost Red BHO a rather tidy sum of votes.

I think Appalled's suggestion that BHO is a flimflam artist, capable of fooling Ayers, is worth additional debate. I really don't believe that BHO actually possesses any idenfiable core beliefs. He was raised Red, without any doubt, but mostly he's developed his lack of character to the point where he can play any part (rather badly), depending upon his perception of the desires of the audience.

I'm still concerned that the Red Witch is going to claw her way out of her coffin and strangle this schmuck. He just isn't very good.

[Sara]

I'm not so concerned about the prime players. It is their audience that seems so eager to lap up the hate that worries me. I just had no idea that there was so much resentment simmering under the surface.

[MayBee]

Is that not odd? Sorry no link but if you google Annenberg challenge Obama it pops right up.

We know that Obama has a crack team of web-scrubbers.
I suspect much of his history from the 1990's to about 2004 (speeches, etc) has been removed from websites in preparation for his run. Information about what he said as a state senator is hard to find.

[Rick Ballard]

Sara,

1.37 million blacks live in Cook County, the vast majority within the 20 minute Sunday morning travel radius that demarks a churches "market". TUCC uses a lying number of 8K in its promotional literature (how do I know it's "lying" - Wright). Using their lying number, I still come up with way less than 1% of the population which leads to an assertion that 99% of the black population within range of Wright's venomous racist bite seem to be immune to his particular poison.

There are others like Wright and Pfleger in Chitown - Jesse performs in the same neighborhood - so the 99% only applies to Wright. The total percentage of those infected might be 2 or 3 times as high - which would still leave 97% uninfected.

Maybe. We can't really be sure.

What we can be absolutely positive about is the fact that these racist clowns perform for money sucked out of the pockets of dupes who deserve every bit of the nothing that they will receive as reward for buying off on this garbage.

[hit and run]

TM:
FWIW, I am highly confident we will hear more about this before November 2008.

Well. What is that worth, anyway?

TM, April 30, 2007

How will Barack distance himself from his minister of twenty years? What should we expect, a Minister Souljah moment? Mr. Wright, you're wrong?

I hope you're right about November -- and we don't see a repeat of Wright here -- Jan/Feb '09 before everybody finally catches up to JOM...

I mean, Time's Man of the Year in 2006 and Karl Rove's favorite blog -- and the whole world still lags almost a year behind you.

[Sara]

I'm probably being over dramatic. What got me thinking (again) along these lines was listening to a young black woman this morning on Fox. Pfleger was the discussion and she was quite rational in her remarks until the Pfleger rape remarks were brought up. Then suddenly it was like someone switched a switch and she became extremely angry as she recounted that her great great great grandfather was white, so that obviously made him a rapist and someone should be held responsible. My mouth just dropped.

[Sue]

H&R,

I was just thinking along those lines, though not with anything like actually doing research on it or anything. Doesn't this remind you of Clinton, as in Bill? All those allegations that were flying around in the campaign in 1992 that were ignored? I doubt Clinton, as in Bill, would have been elected if the internet had existed as it does today.

[Sue]

Sara,

I saw her too, but I didn't understand the part about her heritage. It makes more sense now what she kept yammering about.

[hit and run]

Sue:
I doubt Clinton, as in Bill, would have been elected if the internet had existed as it does today.

You mean he would have been way too occupied with porn sites?

[Rick Ballard]

I guess BHO's diversified unification message isn't the centerpiece of her hope for change.

Sara - I didn't find your thoughts over dramatic. I would just like to see BHO defeated on the basis of his incredible shallowness and the fact that he has no discernible principles rather than upon a factor which could be used to weld blacks to the Dems even more tightly.

[Sue]

You mean he would have been way too occupied with porn sites?

Uhh...yeah...that too...