A Not-Yet-Reported Palin "Scandal"

I don't know if this will qualify as a scandal but I am pretty sure you are reading this here first
- Sarah Palin endorsed a contingency lawsuit against one of the State of Alaska's pension consultants after the state legislature refused to bankroll the legal effort:

The state filed a $1.8 billion malpractice lawsuit Thursday against a consulting firm it claims is a reason Alaska's public employee pension system is in crisis.

The state alleges that Mercer Human Resource Consulting Inc. gave negligent advice and even made basic math errors. Mercer was the state's actuary company and advised Alaska on its public employee and teacher retirement systems for nearly 30 years until being replaced in 2005.

"Fully aware of the billions of dollars at stake, Mercer nevertheless made fundamental errors in methodology and even in basic calculations, and failed to assign competent, experienced personnel to work for the plans," the state charged in its lawsuit.

The state claims Mercer badly miscalculated the growth rate of health care costs. Public employers used Mercer's actuarial information in deciding how much they should contribute to the pension funds.

...

Gov. Sarah Palin asked the Legislature this spring for $12 million to pay for the lawsuit. Lawmakers refused to give her the money.

"At that time my concerns had not been answered as to the probability of prevailing in the lawsuit," said Anchorage Republican Rep. Mike Hawker, a member of the Finance Committee.

The state has instead negotiated a contingency agreement with the law firm it retained to assist in the suit. The firm will get a percentage of whatever award Alaska receives after costs, ranging from 25 percent if the award is up to $200 million to 5 percent if Alaska prevails for more than a billion dollars.

That New York firm -- Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton and Garrison -- is also paying the Juneau firm of Lessmeier and Winters to help.

Hawker said the contingency seems to be a responsible way for the state to pursue what could be challenging litigation.

Sitka Republican Sen. Bert Stedman also said he's comfortable with that approach to the suit.

"Clearly there's some question as far as the quality of work done by Mercer," said Stedman, co-chair of the Senate Finance Committee.

The lawsuit was filed in Alaska Superior Court in Juneau.

Here is a bit of the Google-cache of a gone-but-not-forgotten State of Alaska announcement:

State Files Suit Against Mercer Seeks $1.8 Billion in Damages

December 6, 2007, Juneau, Alaska - Governor Palin today announced the filing of a lawsuit by Attorney General Talis Colberg and the Department of Law against Mercer (US) Inc., the former actuary for Alaska’s Public Employees’ Retirement System (PERS) and Teachers’ Retirement System (TRS) pension plans.  The lawsuit seeks more than $1.8 billion in damages from Mercer for mistakes in calculating the pension plans’ expected liabilities, including mistaken actuarial assumptions and methods about future health care costs, and basic mathematical and technical errors.

“I am committed to aggressively pursuing the ’healing’ of Alaska’s retirement plans so the burden of the several-billion-dollar unfunded liability does not fall on the backs of ordinary citizens. Filing this lawsuit is an important step in that process,” Governor Palin said.

Here is other coverage.  If a PACER maven could track that suit through what I presume is the Federal Court in Juneau that would be lovely.  I am reasonably certain the suit is still alive because I heard about it at a picnic this afternoon from a Mercer employee.  Now, a bit of disclosure - my source probably would not have been a Palin fan even absent the lawsuit; OTOH, he was explicit in saying he had no idea whether she was involved with the suit.  From the reporting she was sufficiently involved to let herself get quoted backing it.

So what does it mean?  Well, perhaps Republican disdain for trial lawyers and speculative contingency lawsuits is a sometime thing.  Superficially this suit appears to me to be yet another public entity that would prefer to flail about and sue someone rather than than admit that they deliberately under-funded their pension plans in order to avoid raising taxes or cutting services.   But I say that as a Jersey guy where that sort of behavior was the norm; maybe Alaska has a legitimate beef here.  Maybe.  In any case, Ms. Palin would not have been governor during the period if underfunding, but she could have blown the whistle on the lawsuit.

This is by no means a major scandal even if the lawsuit is substantially without merit.  Let's file it under "Troubling".  By way of comparison, file this under "How does he keep a straight face?"

 

Comments

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

I am going to miss Laura.

Laura
Bush to Dems: Watch what you say about
Palin...

First lady Laura Bush said today that sexism aimed at Sarah Palin was a very real prospect and suggested Democrats watch what they say about the Alaska governor and John McCain's ticketmate.

“The other side will have to be particularly careful," Bush said in an interview on Fox News from St. Paul, "because that’s something we all looked at."

Questioned about whether Palin may face sexism from the media in the way Hillary Rodham Clinton supporters claim she did, Bush said: "I think that's a possibility."

The first lady, who had been planning to speak to the GOP convention tonight before Gustav scrambled the schedule, expressed pride in Palin.

"I’m going to get what I wanted, which is to be able to vote for a Republican woman," Bush said. "People, as they get to know her, are going to be so impressed with her grit and her sensible judgment.”
"She has shown how terrific women can be, and how strong women can be, in office.”

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Chaco, I was compiling a bi-partisan list which included Dick Lugar and Chuck Hegel, but I see you are braced for a shooting war and you are on your home court. Nice try, though.

OKay, then stand and deliver. Otherwise I'm going to conclude that you can't find examples of D side politicians who have been agressive about corruption in their own party.

In fact, isn't this sort of a pattern? You drop in and make assertions of fact, then when someone challenges you you cry Awful Partisanship. And don't actually deliver.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Joe Trippi warns them to get their heads out of their asses:

I have seen a lot of commentary on why John McCain’s pick of Alaska Governor Sarah Palin is a cynical and transparent ploy to bring disaffected women who supported Hillary Clinton to his cause - and why this ploy would fail.

But I don’t think John McCain and the people around him are that stupid.

...

McCain picked in Palin someone who has taken on the corruption in the GOP in Alaska, turned against her own party’s establishment, and fought for reform.

The McCain/Palin duo will challenge Barack Obama’s claim of “a new kind of politics” and chastise Obama and Democratic vice presidential Nominee, Joe Biden, for their “silence” in taking on corruption in their own party in Illinois, Delaware and Washington, DC.

The McCain campaign intends to claim that “more of the same” in Washington means Barack Obama and Joe Biden and will make the argument that if you want to “shake things up” then McCain and his reform minded running mate from Alaska will get the job done.

My initial reaction was that in picking Palin, McCain had taken away the argument that Barack Obama wasn’t ready to be president. I now think my initial assessment on that score was wrong. Over time, the McCain team will insinuate that if you think a first-term Governor isn’t ready for the number 2 slot, are your really sure that a first-term Senator is ready for the number 1 spot?

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Trippi is many things, but dumb ain't one.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Over time, the McCain team will insinuate that if you think a first-term Governor isn’t ready for the number 2 slot, are your really sure that a first-term Senator is ready for the number 1 spot?

Which is damn near word for word what VDH said.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

I love it. The CBS News headline is "Don't LOL at Sarah Palin"

[Jane]

Laura is going to address the convention today, and introduce the heroic republican Governors dealing with gustav.

[Porchlight]

Reality begins to dawn for Joe Trippi:

Don't LOL At Sarah Palin

My take? Don’t LOL. Take the McCain/Palin ticket seriously.

Hurricane Gustav may hit the GOP convention as hard as it hits the Gulf Coast - but somewhere during his convention I expect John McCain to say “I love my party, but I love my country more."

Sarah Palin amplifies that part of the McCain brand, and helps to move McCain further from being identified with the Bush GOP, even while exciting some of the most conservative elements within it.

That’s accomplishing a lot and none of it involves Palin garnering votes from women “just because she is one."

Can the McCain of 2008 morph back to the McCain of 2000? Only if Democrats laugh out loud at Palin, let their guard down, and let it happen.

One of the more concise cases for McCain/Palin I've read since Friday. And it comes from a Democratic strategist.

[Porchlight]

Hey, we all are on the same page evidently. :)

[bio mom]

Apparently Palin's 17 year old daughter is 5 months pregnant and will wed the father and keep her baby. It is posted on the NY Times website now. The campaign decided they had to release this information to put down the other crap circulating. Now I suppose we will get a whole new list of smears about this. Liberals make me sick.

[bad]

Posted this on wrong thread. Here it is again. An "experience" article out of Detroit.

LUN

[Semanticleo]

"In fact, isn't this sort of a pattern?"

The only pattern I see is your tendency to see matters through your engineer's loupe to the detriment of your peripheral vision.

No one (not even YOUR guys) can stand up to the scatology of flyspecks in roachdung, and you can't help it. You're an engineer.

Your mistake was spilling your candy in the lobby before we began. If you want to Bushwhack someone, it's better if they are surprised.

Is that clear?

Probably not.

Let me break it down for you.........

I will not give you benefit of 'honest broker' any longer. Respond to my comments or don't. It makes no never mind to me.

[bad]

Our prayers for the young couple and the baby. God go with them.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

For those of you who can stomach MSNBC:

Olbermann Pulled From Republican Convention Coverage

[GMax]

Shorter Cleo

well no I cant find any dems rooting out dem corruption but I want to talk about something else now.

[bad]

Semanticleo

Why the rage against engineers? I know many who are a wonderful combination of brilliance and common sense. Their wives and husbands are cut from the same cloth.

[Semanticleo]

"I know many who are a wonderful combination of brilliance and common sense"

I'm sure you do.

But it's the affliction of Right Brain Atrophy that draws them to engineering in the first place.

[kim]

Oh, the poor guy is out of sensible talking points and is reduced to sneering. He'll recover in a couple of weeks.
================

[Jane]

You know I was stunned by the daughter's pregnancy news. But thinking about it, it's a pretty strong contrast to Obama's infanticide position.

It's gotta be tough to start a family at 17.

[BobS]

I wonder if Todd got a hold on that boy. I hate for him to be mad at me.

[GMax]

reduced to sneering

well that and changing the subject, yeah.

[Soylent Red]

it's a pretty strong contrast to Obama's infanticide position.

I thought the same thing Jane.

My next thought was that KOS would soon hatch a conspiracy that Rove secretly fathered the child IOT score points on the abortion issue.

[Jane]

My next thought was that KOS would soon hatch a conspiracy that Rove secretly fathered the child IOT score points on the abortion issue.

I can hardly wait!

[clarice]

Every parent of teenagers can empathize. Any one who makes anything of it, will look petty and will be reminded of the foofaroo everytime any comment was made about Dem kids.

[BobS]

The nasty left is going to have a field day, but according to the Reuters story, McCain did know about it, so it shows just how much faith he has in palin

[MayBee]

Can Obama make something of it? I don't think so, considering the circumstances of his own conception.
His surrogates can try to make something of it, but overall, I think it's just going to have to be left alone.

It's admirable, isn't it, that McCain didn't disqualify the mother for the daughter being pregnant?

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

But it's the affliction of Right Brain Atrophy that draws them to engineering in the first place.

I'm not at all drawn to engineers. I'm a big picture person, engineers are way to detail oriented for me. But, I seem to attract engineering types like porchlights attract moths.

I asked one of them about it and got some gobbledygook back that only another engineer could understand. I finally figured that since both my Grandfathers and my Father were engineers, I must have some genetic engineering pheromone that draws the type to me. I ended up marrying one, but we had a deal, I would do the thinking and planning for the family, he would do the implementation, building and organizing. It worked for 32 years.

[clarice]

ABC:"The McCain campaign raised more than $10 million in the two and a half days after Alaska Governor Sarah Palin was named as the vice presidential running mate, bringing the total raised in the month of August to more than $47 million, campaign officials tell ABC News. The final, official figures are expected to be reported in the next few days, but the amount appears to be a record for the McCain campaign,"

[JM Hanes]

Semanticleo :

"But it's the affliction of Right Brain Atrophy that draws them to engineering in the first place."

Wow! I didn't know all the engineers were Republicans too! I'll add them to my list, which is looking pretty good. Some highlights: We've got all the engineers, all the guns, all the guys who produce all the food, all those southern rubes who sign up for the military, all the women who like having babies and can home school all those kids. Talk about promising demographics!

The Democrats, putting their best foot forward last week, apparently have well organized communities of professional victims.

[Porchlight]

Can Obama make something of it? I don't think so, considering the circumstances of his own conception.

MayBee, I hadn't even remembered that till I read your comment.

Not much room to maneuver here for Obama. My guess is that he will take the high road and let the nutters on the left (and the MSM, but I repeat myself) continue the fight without him.

[boris]

From an early exchange with cleo:

cleo: Semantics is the key to communication.

boris: But logic is the key to reality.

See, the reason cleo doesn't like us engineers is because for non-postmodernists reality trumps semantics.

[JM Hanes]

Yo, BobS. I was anxiously awaiting news over in the Gustav thread, where it's still dark ... and pouring... Glad to see you were just busy over here!

[anduril]

clarice, what's your take? Will the Ha'aretz article affect Obama's fund raising? He spent an awful lot of time soothing Jewish sensibilities, and now this.

[GMax]

Exclusive from Newsweek:

John Coale, a prominent Washington lawyer, husband of Fox TV host Greta Van Susteren and a supporter of Sen. Hillary Clinton, announced today that he was supporting John McCain for president. Coale, who traveled with Sen. Clinton, President Clinton and her family through out the primary season, complained of sexism, and said the Democratic Party is "being taken over by the moveon.org types" in an exclusive interview with Newsweek.com's Tammy Haddad.

[JM Hanes]

boris:

LOL. Semantics come pre-installed. Logic must be learned.

[cathyf]

*snort* Those of us who program computers for a living know that semantics is an engineering dscipline.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Talk about promising demographics!

The Democrats, putting their best foot forward last week, apparently have well organized communities of professional victims.

You are assuming they will have any demographics at all. Who will be left after they abort the next generations?

[Charlie (Colorado)]

No one (not even YOUR guys) can stand up to the scatology of flyspecks in roachdung, and you can't help it. You're an engineer.

Well, then there were my history publications.

And the summer-stock Shakespeare.

Oh, let's not forget medical school.

Respond to my comments or don't. It makes no never mind to me.

Lost another one, eh, Leo?

[Charlie (Colorado)]

But it's the affliction of Right Brain Atrophy that draws them to engineering in the first place.

Oh, and I'm an artist member of the International Association of Astronomical Artists.

[JM Hanes]

anduril:

According to a HotAir update, the Biden quote is a couple of years old. Combine it with the $100 million giveaway proposal though, and it makes a knock out question for the VP debate.

I was sorry to see one of the Presidential Debates go to Bob Schiffer (sp?). I'm expecting a series of puffball questions, plucked from the headlines, that even Obama can finesse without a teleprompter. Shame on ABC for not fielding Charlie Gibson. How spineless can you be? [rhetorical]. Hope they collectively solicit suggestions from the public, because I've started working up a list of questions I'd like answered.

[anduril]

boris, I'd like to disagree with you to a certain extent. Logic involves the manipulation of concepts--abstract ideas--and it is the way that we humans interface with reality. That is ONE of the keys that has enabled modern science and technology. Nevertheless, concepts are NOT reality (nor is actual reality a concept)--except in the reductionist views of Platonists such as Descartes and his intellectual heirs. I recommend to one and all a little book called "The Victory of Reason." The key to reality is the realization that--for all the usefulness, importance and indispensability of conceptual thinking--the primacy is the actual act of existing. For that you have to get up on Thomism and the theory of judgment.

[BobS]

Wow, GMax....will there be other prominant Dems that publically announce crossovers?

[anduril]

Well, it's a timely reminder for people who may have missed it or forgotten it. No one back then would have expected either Osama or Biden to be in the WH?

[kim]

Sein und Zeit sits on the back of my toilet, but I've got to learn German, first.
===========

[anduril]

tear the pages out, glue them together to form a roll and put the book to good use.

[boris]

Logic involves the manipulation of concepts--abstract ideas--and it is the way that we humans interface with reality

ISTM you confuse the symbolism with the substance. Logic also "involves" a collection of transistors deciding to output a one (true) or zero (false).

[anduril]

boris, I don't think "a collection of transistors" decides to do a damn thing. it's you who are confused. i suppose you talk to "a collection of transistors" and discuss their decisions with them?

[boris]

So the phrase "decided by a coin flip" is actually meaningless huh?

[anduril]

Do the coins decide to flip themselves and then interpret the results? "Coin flips" are decided by the participants, who are humans.

[kim]

Alright, this is getting interesting, so be nice you two.

That's funny about Being and Time, anduril. Actually, it's in English, liberally sprinked with German. I can't figure out who this Dasein guy is.
====================

[boris]

Do the coins decide to flip themselves and then interpret the results?

No more than the transistors.

[glasater]

JMH
Shame on ABC for not fielding Charlie Gibson.

Am kinda wondering if the BHO campaign team crossed Gibson off the list themselves. Don't know if they have that much "say so" though.

[JM Hanes]

Thinking itself is abstraction. It is not necessarily logic.

[boris]

The transistors are constructed to implement a logic function. Coins are not. They both can be used to "make choices".

An insect can make a choice as well. It has been claimed that one of the space probes has the approximate intelligence of an insect. Using transistors.

[JM Hanes]

"Using transistors."

Intelligent design in action!

[boris]

It is not necessarily logic

Yes. We verify that adding two apples to two apples results in four apples. Logic allows us to expect the same result using oranges.

But that is the use of logic, not logic itself. As humans we have cognitive perception of logic, but the logic itself is a property of this universe.

[anduril]

Both transistors and coins are inanimate objects that are instrumentalities--they are used by humans. No matter the purpose for which they were originally constructed. Inanimate objects do not possess intelligence. Their human operators do. Well, relatively speaking.

[boris]

Anyway, back to programming FPGAs in VHDL.

[anduril]

boris, you're expressing yourself poorly. Logic is not a property of the universe--intelligibility is. That intelligibility is expressed by us in concepts, and logic governs the use that we make of concepts, starting with the principle of identity. But the intelligibility that humans "see" in the universe is not the whole intelligibility--it is ultimately an approximation that "works" for us, yet which recedes from our grasp even as we learn more.

[boris]

The color red is a perception. The universe does not have an innate property called "red". We can perceive and use logic but it also is an innate property of the universe. The mathmatical value of Pi is an innate property and so is the logic we can use to derive it.

[anduril]

A sensory perception is not a concept. Nor do we "perceive" logic. The discovery of logical relationships--the rules of logic--arises from our discovery of intelligibility in the universe. Nor do I believe that Pi was "derived by logic"--properly speaking, it was discovered in the process of exploring the intelligibility of geometric forms. Yes, logic is used in geometry, but Pi is not simply a deduction from logical principles.

If you're interested in this subject, explore it further, read up on it. A book that's quite different from The Victory of Reason is The Science Before Science.

[boris]

discovery of intelligibility

Children and animals develop the use of logic at well established developmental stages. Applying the phrase "discovery of intelligibility" to that process is nonsense.

[bad]

i lak red and blu and yeller, partiklerly on a feller.

Miss Kim, u dun set me on far fer pomes.

[boris]

Clearly anduril prefers to use "discovery of intelligibility" instead of my "perception of logic" for essentially the same concept. I'll stick with mine because that one sux.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

The universe does not have an innate property called "red"

I thought red was something like 12 octaves above High C.

[bio mom]

What is wrong with the guys at Powerline. Their response to all of this just leaves me cold.

[bad]

What is wrong with the guys at Powerline.

They were hot for Pawlenty.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Bio Mom, I've been in shock at their petty posts since last Friday. Sour grapes over Pawlenty is my guess. But, I wrote to them and told them I find their posts sexist and offensive.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Re: Powerline.

Considering their addiction to beauty pageants, they seem like total hypocrites.

[Extraneus]

Hi Boris. May I step in here just to make one minor correction?

The universe does not have an innate property called "red".

I don't think this takes away from your larger point, but there is an innate wavength of light which we call "red". Colors are the small part of the much wider overall electro-magnetic spectrum that we're able to see, and red is what we call that part of the visible spectrum with wavelength around 650 nanometers (billionths of meters).

[boris]

but there is an innate wavength of light which we call "red"

Which we perceive as red. Consider green instead. There is a wavelength of light we perceive as green, but green is also perceived for the combination of wavelengths we perceive (individually) as yellow and blue. I would quibble that there is not a simple corespondence between wavelength and perception.

[anduril]

The use of logic depends upon 1) an intelligible universe and 2) the human ability to grasp that intelligibility, using both sense and intellect. Logic studies the attributes and relationships that things have as known by the human mind (as "beings of reason"), not as existing in reality. That is, the existence or non-existence of the object is immaterial to the logician--what matters is the intelligible relationship of the various elements of the propositions that we form concerning the "object". Thus, the constructed concept of a unicorn can be logically studied and manipulated, true and false statements can be made and examined from the standpoint of logic, despite the fact that no such beast exists. However, the concept of a unicorn is formed by the mind based on intelligibility that the human mind has previously grasped in reality: horn, horse, etc.

This means that the use or application of logic follows upon the actual acquisition of intelligibity. The intelligibility that the human mind acquires becomes the formal object of logic. The "rules of logic" express the rules that govern the attributes and relationships of what are called "beings of reason" within the human mind. In other words, logic arises from the study of the intelligibility that man grasps through the united human subject: sense and intellect. If the universe were not intelligible and its intelligibility were not grasped by the human mind, logic would not have developed. The ability to study intelligible relationships and develop rules to express those relationships (logic) would be frustrated.

[boris]

What you call logic, I call the study of logic. What I call logic you seem to call "the intelligibility of the universe to humans".

What are the odds of rolling a 5 in three throws of a standard dice? Common sense "logic" for some might answer 50% but the correct odds are 1-(125/216) which is a about 42%. Is that result a product of the philosophy of mathmatics or a property of the universe?

Well I can't be sure about the whole universe but on this planet, in this solar system, in this galaxy I am certain it is a property of reality.

That we can calculate the odds is also a property of reality, the process we use to do so may be philosophy but the ability to do so is logic.

Logic is not the "rules of logic". The rules of logic are a description of universal properties.

[anduril]

No, boris. The ability to calculate odds arises from the fact that we have a rational intellect. The process we use, assuming we're not just making a wild ass guess, involves logic. Logic is essentially about process, and thus is agnostic about reality as such--for purposes of our calculation it doesn't even matter whether such a thing as a standard dice exists, as long as we have a sufficiently specific concept ("being of reason") of such a thing.

I'm not being nit-picky. Correct distinctions matter very much as you progress. If your terminology fails to draw the necessary distinctions, terminology alone can lead you astray. Words matter.

[anduril]

Addendum and example.

Logic is a description of the necessary relationships among universals. That should be pretty close to your last sentence. A description of the properties and relationships that obtain among universals--"universals" is another word that the medieval thinkers used to describe concepts, which is why I said that logic is agnostic about reality, even though it arises from our contact with the reality of the universe, which is intelligible.

You're using the word "logic" in the extended sense of "the logic of a system," etc. That's fine for its purposes, but is essentially a metaphor drawn from the reality of formal logic.

[glasater]

The ability to calculate odds arises from the fact that we have a rational intellect. The process we use, assuming we're not just making a wild ass guess, involves logic

Anduril--have you ever played poker or blackjack?

[boris]

The ability to calculate odds arises from the fact that we have a rational intellect

That the odds can be determined in the abstract is what I meant by "ability to do so". My sense does not depend on a rational intellect smart enough to get the right answer.

it arises from our contact with the reality

That is bass ackwards. Humans can use logic and observe and describe its rules because nature hardwired the perception and capability to do so in our brains. What you call the "intelligibility of the universe" is a heriditary trait that elevated intellect so it can process logic to control reality.

You have confused the description of the property with the property itself.

[sbw]

Instapundit says: TALKLEFT reminds us that it's Labor Day.

I didn't bother to follow the link because I suspect that TalkLeft's idea of labor is to enable the absence of it.

People who would own the fruits of their own labor owe so much to Adam Smith. We are all better off when one owns one's own labor and, because of it, can create capital to invest to improve one's own effeciency, or can lend it to others to improve theirs.

Too often, organized labor invokes the name of the downtrodden to work against others. Too often organized labor wants an unfair advantage, like removing the secret ballot. And in this, Adam Smith was right, too.

[anduril]

OK, you're one of those. I won't waste anymore time.

[larwyn]

Boris, go read the "logic" of A's brother re Palin acceptance of VP on "While other news broke..."
A classic!

[JM Hanes]

"Logic is a description of the necessary relationships among universals."

Necessary looks pretty circular here to me.

[boris]

I can make it one step simpler ...

The odds of rolling a 5 in three rolls of one dice is the same as the odds of rolling a 5 in one throw of three dice.

Is that fact a property of reality or product of reasoning?

The cognitive ability to grasp that relationship is pretty much hard wired. The relationships that apply to atoms and galaxies are independant of rational intellect. It is not the rules we use to decribe them that is logic. What I call logic is the quality that makes that possible. There almost certainly are universal relationships we are not capable of describing or understanding that nevertheless have the quality that their rules of logic could, in theory, be described. For example a super intelligent computer or entity a million years more evolved.

[Daddy]

You guys are way over my head, but I seem to recall:

To Do is to Be---Plato

To Be is to Do---Descartes

Do be do be do---Sinatra

[clarice]

anduril, Juat noticed your question. (This site is loading funny today for me and I've been rather busy. I take it you are referring to the report that Biden told Israel it'll just have to live with a nuclear Iran..I have no idea what the effect of this will be. I cannot imagine why any Jew would vote for Barack in any event..foreign affairs being simply the icing on the Nobama Cake. But what do I know?

[Pagar]

Clarice,

I cannot imagine why any American would vote for Obama.

[M. Simon]

Guys my spidey sense is up.

Biden is drinking too much and Obama is not acting presidential.

Check out my very un PC Chicken Thief.

Obama is taking without asking and Biden heads for the bar.

And the first thread I posted this on has had it removed.

Given all we have endured from the leftys I think it is rather mild. YMMV.

[clarice]

Not acting presidential? Didn't BJ used to swill other folks food at every chance?

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Okay, you two, pull over. You should know better than to practice epistemology without a license.

[Bob]

Byron York makes a great point his morning:

"As for now, at least, evangelicals seem to be completely on Palin’s side. And McCain’s. This is a group that has been skeptical of McCain in the past. Now, it’s probably fair to say that he has never been more popular among evangelicals than he is at this moment. Whether that will last, or whether Palin will cost McCain support among other voters, is not yet clear. But within the confines of the Republican Convention, McCain’s surprising choice of Palin — and the equally surprising news about her family — is paying off."

Why the Palin Baby Story Matters

I think he's right... McCain may have made more then one great choice with Palin!

[kim]

Yes, Bob. The reaction I've heard is 'Sounds like a real family'.
=====================================

[Amy]

For the people who are touting the Republican talking point that Palin has more experience than Sen. Obama, read this head to head comparison and judge for yourself:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/9/2/1613/27485/447/581295

[Bob]

Yeah Amy the Daily Loss is a very unbiased blog.

Listen dear if you want to believe that the magic negro really is just a prize, Please expand on the Kos's resume and tell us why during all this resume building you can't point to one thing he accomplished... other then of course voting present over hundred times. Yes that's what we need a President who can vote "Present" with conviction!

[GMax]

Sure I would go and see what some puke at Kos typed up instead of thinking about what Obama has done versus her executive experience. I guess when I put community organizer against reporter and commercial fisherman I should conclude that the touchy feely stuff is just so overpowering? How about wasting the money on a Harvard law degree and using it as a community organizer? Is that the judgement I am suppose to consider?

[Anti Palin]

Can we really afford to have a religious zealot in the white house? These christians are always the most corrupt people in politics. Less than 1% of christians have actually read the bible, which is obvious, because it clear states a number of times that a person who follows the word of god can not be involved in political/state matters. It is against god's will and a sin. There is no scale of sin in the bible, all sins are equal and punishable by god in the exact same way. From homosexuality to unwed pregnancy, to practicing politics, to judging others, to working on the sabbath, to murder. Exactly the same weight. Yes, if you actually look into in the myth of the bible and take the time to read it you will be repulsed. A vote for Palin is the end of not just our country but perhaps the world...don't take my word for it, read about the end times in the bible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkXOwBIRX7Y

[d from north philadelphia]

it seems like john mccain is running as much against the republicans as he is against the democrats. makes sense because he's never been a dependable republican. i hope his campaign chokes on the federal limits he created. for the first time in 36 years i'm voting for a democrat and not because i'm crazy about obama. the last person you chose as a change agent is a 72 year old man.

[Mr. Stevie]

This Sarah Palin sounds as if she has the same qualifications as Bill Clinton. I'm sure she will be elected with ease.

[battery]

is left on the table as“ might have been.” I’ m not saying a bad childcare- fee increase is going to bring Google down. But it’ s certainly a bait- and- switch on employees who signed up because of the promise of such benefits.