Mais Oui, Mon Ami

Andrew Sullivan is shocked (shocked!) that anyone could think that his questioning of McCain's cross in the dirt story could be characterized as "Swiftboating":

Swift-boat? Moi?

It's worth noting that pursuing the cross-in-the-dirt evangelical parable as it might have happened to McCain is in no way impugning anyone's war record. No one is disputing in any way what McCain did in Vietnam, his heroism, his sacrifice or any jot and tittle of his combat in arms and time in captivity.

Uh huh.  McCain tells a story of his war time experience meant to illuminate his character.  Sully questions that story but he is not "disputing in any way what McCain did in Vietnam".  Hmm, I guess he is merely disputing what a Vietnamese guard did, and what McCain remembers.  Quel difference!  Or as Sister Toldjah rejoins "Yeah.  And my writing this post? It’s not part of my blog."

Byron York is a calming beacon of light:

Team McCain reshaped and altered the utterly believable story, Sullivan says, to appeal to the evangelical base, beginning in the 2000 campaign. (And we all know how hard John "agents of intolerance" McCain was working to sweet-talk evangelicals back in 2000.) Anyway, Exhibit A in this is a McCain campaign ad telling the cross-in-the-dirt story. In the ad, we see video of someone making a cross in dirt — using a stick. And McCain had said the North Vietnamese guard used his sandal. Aha!

I threw in my two cents about the bitter "stick versus sandal" schism in comments to this post:

However - a sandal is also a lot less visually interesting to film, at least in a quick ad (What do you show, some guy shuffling his feet?). Creative license.

I have a very hard time believing that Sully wouldn't be offering these rationales himself if he were sincerely interested in sorting this out.  [Long time McCain aide and co-author Mark Salter goes with "artistic license".  OK, then, show us the license...]

As to why McCain didn't tell the story himself in 1973 - a commenter suggested that maybe ratting out a Christian sympathizer among the prison guards struck McCain as a bad idea. 

But if you think that is a long shot, how about my suggestion, which found support from a Sully-sympathizer:

If I may dare to play armchair psychologist — one point of the “cross in dirt” story is McCain’s recognition of and reconciliation to the humanity of his often brutal captors. My guess is that in May of 1973 he had not fully worked through his issues with the North Vietnamese.

Well.  Let the Switfboating continue!

TRYING TO GRASP THE SUBTLETIES OF "SULLYBOATING":  Let's see if I get Sullivan's argument - McCain's memory of a cross in the dirt is not a story about his courage or in his military record, and he may or may not have invented it in 2000 for political purposes; therefore, critics are not engaging in "Swiftboating" when they pick at it.

Well, then, what about folks, including the Swiftboaters, who questioned Kerry's "Christmas in Cambodia" story?  That incident was not in Kerry's record (since it never happened!); he had not received a mdeal for it; and he seemd to have invented it for political purposes (e.g., in a Senate speech in 1986 Kerry's point was that he had special moral authority to denounce a secret Iran-Contra war since he had been a participant/victim of Nixon's secret war in Cambodia in 1968.  Please ignore the fact that Nixon was inaugurated in January 1969.)

By Sullivan's new standard the Swiftboaters were not Swiftboating Kerry on this topic, since they were only questioning a politically motivated story and not "real" conduct in Vietnam.  A fine distinction - can we call this "Sullyboating"?

Pretty complicated!  In my world, if a politician wants to run on his record, critics should be free to examine it, and take the consequences.  In Sully's world, the rules are less clear, but let me guess at a summary - it is OK to attack Republicans.

Comments

[Hardy har har]

"John is not a religious person, but he has taken every opportunity to ally himself with some really obnoxious and crazy fundamentalist ministers lately. I was also disappointed to see him cozy up to Bush because I know he hates that man. He disingenuously and famously put his arm around the guy, even after Bush had intensely disrespected him with lies and slander. So on these and many other instances, I don't see that John is the "straight talk express" he markets himself to be."

-Dr. Phillip Butler (USNA '61): a hall mate of John McCain's at the Naval Academy. He was a Vietnam War light-attack carrier pilot. He was a POW for 8 years in North Vietnam during the time that McCain was in captivity. He has two Silver Stars, two Legion of Merits, two Bronze Stars and two Purple Heart medals.

[William Jennings Bryan]

You shall not press down upon the brow of lamers this cone of thorns! You shall not crucify mankind upon a cross of dirt!

[sbw]

Cynically, I think that Sully is cynical to think that the McCain camp would be so cynical as to rework McCain's story as a cynical ploy to address the cynical tactics the Obama campaign has used to keep Obama from appearing cynical. Now, let's keep this campaign on the high road.

[Appalled]

The funny thing about this is that this is just part and parcel of Mr. Sullivan's overwhelming enthusiasm for Obama. Once an Obama term gets rolling, and Obama's enthusiasm for government mandated volunteerism and enhanced regulation get rolling, Sullivan's libertarian streak will get bent out of shape, and similarly bitter (and likely similarly accurate) posts will roll out, one after the other.

Sully, as a writer, isn't all that bad. When he's edited, he can approach brilliant. But -- oddly for one of the genre's pioneers -- blogging manages to amplify all his faults as a writer, and turns him into a prolific hack for any candidate who can engage his enthusiasms.

(Remember -- it as only a short time ago -- his rampaging enthusiasm for Ron Paul? Does anyone really remember Ron Paul?)

[Via Ron Paul]

"Does anyone really remember Ron Paul?"

Actually yes, lots of people. Wait till th eRepub convention!

Now who remebers Fred Thompson-our "next president" per the ever sharp as gum under a table maguire.

[sbw]

Love to see those embarrassing Ron Paul bumperstickers. Yesterday's news tells you so much about someone.

[sbw]

Now if Obama dropped Joe Biden for Fred Thompson as VP, I just might vote... Nah! Nevermind.

[Viva Ron Paul]

you want embarassing? How about when Maguire was all "aw shucks" gooberish when he made the blogroll on Fred Thompson's website?!

How many hits did you get from that baby Maguire?

Fred Thompson as President!!!!!!!!

It's so stupid!!!

[Appalled]

Are you Paulites going to vote for Bob Barr?

[Great Banana]

John is not a religious person, but he has taken every opportunity to ally himself with some really obnoxious and crazy fundamentalist ministers lately. I was also disappointed to see him cozy up to Bush because I know he hates that man. He disingenuously and famously put his arm around the guy, even after Bush had intensely disrespected him with lies and slander. So on these and many other instances, I don't see that John is the "straight talk express" he markets himself to be."

Assuming for the moment that the quote is accurate and from who you say it is from - so what?

What politician does not ally himself with people they don't like? What politician at the presidential level does not end up endorsing and campaigning for a political rival who trashed him at some point (think, Obama and Hillary campaigning together now)? Will leftists foresake Obama for now campaigning with Hillary? What about if Obama picks Biden for VP who famously called Obama "clean" and "articulate"?

I'm really not sure what that quote is supposed to mean, other than that the guy who said it doesn't like the religious right or Bush and is mad at McCain for not sticking his finger in the right's eye? What is the point?

[bgates]

So on these and many other instances, I don't see that John is the "straight talk express" he markets himself to be.
Not really on point for the story Sullivan is so worked up about. But if you want to shout to the heavens that McCain is really, truly not close to Bush at all...
I can't stop you.

[bgates]

you want embarassing?
Can you spell "embarrassing"?

I'm pretty sure Fred Thompson would see a lot to admire in Ron Paul's domestic platform. He's a federalist, states' rights, strict Constitutionalist kind of guy. Why the venom, Paulista?

[Captain Hate]

Has anybody ever observed a Ronulan with a detectable amount of humility?

[Hardy har har]

"other than that the guy who said it doesn't like the religious right"

You mean like call them "agents of intolerance". Oops that was McCain.

It just means that McCain will say anything to get elected. He got this nice anecdote all ready for the 2000 campaign, but Bush (my favorite political philosopher is Christ) out-jesused him.

It's all a fraud. Vote for McCain if you want, but don't be such a sucker about it!

McCain was first challenged about this tale on Free Republic! Try to remember exactly why conservatives used to hate the guy and maybe you'll see.

[Lesley]

"Now who remebers Fred Thompson-our "next president" per the ever sharp as gum under a table maguire."

Yes, I remember. But I got over my romance with my political crush rather quickly and moved on. The dems are stuck with their crush and I'm none sensing the same coup de foudre these days.

[Viva Ron Paul]

Obama's still killing it on Tradesports. Like to see some of you geezers put your social secuirity money where your mouth is.

[Rick Ballard]

Captain Hate,

I thought they had all been recalled to the mothership. Perhaps this is a fauxRonulan?

The thread lice get thick when things are going badly for The Annointed One. Perhaps the coming LAT poll is as bad as suggested? Not that I would put much stock in a LAT poll and especially one which may be designed to reflect a post convention bounce higher than the "dead cat" which state polls are currently showing.

[Lesley]

"Mais oui, mon ami."

I like French Day. I thought TM did this to encourage our use of French words & phrases, so I complied.

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

Steve Diamond has a new post about the Annenberg Challenge archives stonewall. Seems he's having some of the same problems with Brown University.

[Captain Hate]

Tres bien, Leslie; I'm glad that we's can say more than merci beaucoup.

[Topsecretk9]

TM -- you'll be interested in an insty link..

the author of Solzhenitsyn: A Biography, says the episode "never happened," and didn't appear in Solzhenitsyn's book, Gulag Archipelago, either.

A commenter, I think at Gateway pundit, said this as well.

[Captain Hate]

Sorry Lesley!

[Viva Ron Paul]

Seriously, do any of you geezers have any money on McCain?

Maguire still got a link over there to the Intrade Libby odds, and I never did thank you morons for keeping "guilty" such a relative good contract.

Buy McCain. Please.

[Cecil Turner]

I was also disappointed to see him cozy up to Bush because I know he hates that man.

Ah, a politician being politic. If that's the worst thing the self-styled "peace and justice activist with Veterans for Peace" has on ol' John, he might've saved himself the effort of writing that little hit-piece.

[RichatUF]

Great Bananna-

Blackfive had a write up about that article when it came out a while back. The author is a member of Veterans for Peace and a "peace and justice activist" (sort of an obscure title like "community activist).

[hardy har har]

Hit piece?

I defy you to correct one thing in it.

Yeah, take a look at this bio: real jackass this guy.

Doctor Phillip Butler is a 1961 graduate of the United States Naval Academy and a former light-attack carrier pilot. In 1965 he was shot down over North Vietnam where he spent eight years as a prisoner of war. He is a highly decorated combat veteran who was awarded two Silver Stars, two Legion of Merits, two Bronze Stars and two Purple Heart medals.

After his repatriation in 1973 he earned a Ph.D. in sociology from the University of California at San Diego and became a Navy Organizational Effectiveness consultant. He completed his Navy career in 1981 as a professor of management at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, California. He is now a peace and justice activist with Veterans for Peace.

[BumperStickerist]

Me?

I'm just thrilled that Sullivan thinks that McCain's read Solzhenitsyn.

I mean, the hell with McCain actually *living* it ... John's apparently read about this stuff as well.

-

[Great Banana]

You mean like call them "agents of intolerance". Oops that was McCain.

Oops - I don't think anyone here forgot that. Nor, frankly, do I care as I never thought much of the people he was talking about.

It just means that McCain will say anything to get elected.

Unlike, say, Obama, who has changed his main policies 180 degrees between the primaries and the general? The guy who said he couldn't disown Wright one week, and then disowned him the next? Is that the kind of honesty and integrity you are looking for?

He got this nice anecdote all ready for the 2000 campaign, but Bush (my favorite political philosopher is Christ) out-jesused him.

So, you are saying that the cross story that at least one other POW confirms is false?

It's all a fraud. Vote for McCain if you want, but don't be such a sucker about it!

Yes, a lot of political theater is a fraud. I agree with that. Look at Obama - he's about as big a fraud as you can find in every way imaginable.

I am not happy about McCain b/c he is too liberal for my taste. But, he is 100 times better than Obama. Arguing that McCain is "fake" is certainly not a persausive reason to vote for Obama - who is much more "fake" than McCain. At least w/ McCain he has a history that we can look to and see where he has stood and have some idea as to what his philosophy/values are. With Obama, it is all smoke and mirrors. Noone knows what that guy truly believes.

McCain was first challenged about this tale on Free Republic! Try to remember exactly why conservatives used to hate the guy and maybe you'll see.

So again, I'm not sure what your point is.

If it is that you believe that McCain's cross story is a complete lie - say that! Take a stand. Be explicit.

[Daddy]

Thanks Hardy for that. Next time please include Butler's comments on how McCain conducted himself during captivity, not just his opinion of whether or not he should have shaken hands with President Bush in 2000, etc.

The difference I think between how the left handled the SwiftBoater's and Kerry, is that the Left desperately tried to deny Kerry's squadronmates the opportunity to comment at all on Kerry's service and fitness for command, unless of course their opinions were carefully screened, vetted and approved by the campaign, and by partisan members of the media. Then they could be aired, but other than that any utterances his squadronmates made were immediately considered illigitimate, and either they should not have had the opportunity to speak, or rather instead their stated opinions should have been prevented from being freely reported to the public via the MSM.
On the Right, by contrast, the majority of us are happy to have each and every one of his fellow POW's stand up and loudly proclaim whatever the crap they want to say concerning McCain's behavior during captivity, as well as their opinions on his fitness to serve as President. I for instance, had 2 former CO's who were former POW's with McCain, and neither had anything but praise for McCain whenever the topic came up about him being a fit politician. I also flew quite a lot more recently with another 5+ years POW, who though no supporter of McCain as a Presidential Candidate, due to differing Political views, nevertheless nearly came over the table one night, when an obnoxious drunken jerk called McCain a "bootlicker for the Trilateralist Commission." Man, that was a very visceral and unexpected affirmation of this other POW's opinion of McCain's fundamental character, regardless of whether or not he felt like pulling the lever for John McCain in the voting booth.

That's the difference, get all the facts out there on the table. We're intelligent enough to interpret them.

[Lesley]

Heck yes, Captain.

I turn into a veritable Jamie Lee Curtis every time Italian is spoken to me!

(you'll notice TM didn't use Italian - boy, would the thread have gone nuts)

[Jean Francois Kerry aka LindaK]

Cher BO:

Je voudrais etre le VP.

Votre ami, Jean Francois

[Hardy har har]

Ok Great Banana.

I'll be as clear as I can:

Of course, McCain made up the story. It's a complete lie fabricated to dupe gullible Christians.

Take a look at McCain's actual life as opposed to his words.

That Free Republic called him out first is the key. Why exactly did real actual conservatives used to hate mcCain?

[Great Banana]

While I did not call it a "hit piece" I will respond to this:

I defy you to correct one thing in it.

The article states that "Bush had intensely disrespected him with lies and slander."

That is simply not true, despite the urban legend. Find me one cite to any Bush ad or Bush statement that lied about McCain.

This is along the same lines as the urban legend that the GOP "questioned" Max Cleland's patriotism. No - the GOP highlighted Max Cleland's votes and stances on issues, that is all.

[Danube of Thought]

I also talked with Ed Martin last night about Phil Butler (Martin was a POW from July 1967 to the end). He said he thinks the guy has gone around the bend somewhat, and he wouldn't believe a word he says. In any event, if you read Butlers's entire piece, it appears that the reason he is not voting for McCain is that McCain is not in fact a moderate Republican. News to me...

In any event, note that Butler nowhere impugns McCain's conduct as a POW. And despite the debasement of the term, John McCain will only be "SwiftBoated" if his own POW colleagues come forward in large numbers to derogate his behavior and dispute his accounts of it. Not gonna happen.

According to Martin, Butler is simply wrong when he says that all the POW's were offered early release. It was never offered to Ed Martin, nor is he aware of it happening to anyone else other than McCain.

[Hardy har har]

Daddy (that's a really weird handle btw):

I haven't said one damn word about McCain's behavior during captivity.

The real tragedy for McCain is that his captivity was his finest work. Since that time, he's pretty well a loser.

[Danube of Thought]

"I defy you to correct one thing in it."

See my post above concerning all the POW's being offered early release.

[Daddy]

It's what my kids call me.

[Great Banana]

Of course, McCain made up the story. It's a complete lie fabricated to dupe gullible Christians.

Dope us how? McCain gave interviews when he first came back from Vietnam where he said that prayer and faith was important to keep him going? Were those lies then?

Is the other P.O.W. also lying?

Even if the story is exagerated, so what?

Take a look at McCain's actual life as opposed to his words.

What exactly does this mean? Are you saying that you have judged his christianity and find it wanting? I love how leftists who hate religion are such experts on who is a good christian.

If you want religious hypocrasy see Bill Clinton. the fact that McCain doesn't spout off about religion very often hardly means he is not religious.

That Free Republic called him out first is the key.

Really? the key to what? Are you stating that you believe that everything that the Free Republic says is gospel truth? I haven't been to FR in years, but I'd bet they are supporting McCain over Obama (even if holding their nose while they did it). Does that mean you support McCain over Obama?

Why exactly did real actual conservatives used to hate mcCain?

- Campaign Finance;
- his stance against tax cuts;
- his stance for illegal immigration;
- his stance on global warming; and
- his gang-of-ten compromise on judges.

Obama is hardly going to win over conservative with his views on these issues, so arguing to us that McCain was not a conservative favorite (we know) is not going to persuade us that Obama should be president.

[Danube of Thought]

"Since that time, he's pretty well a loser."

Retired as a Captain, USN; elected to the US House of Representatives; elected to multiple terms in the US Senate. Nominated by the Republican Party for President of the United States. Some loser.

[Sara]

So Hardy, the fact that all the POW accounts say that McCain led them in Christmas services and prayer, that he was known as one of the hard resistors, and that the U.S. government bestowed on him commendation after commendation for his leadership and honor is all a lie?

You are pathetic.

[Hardy har har]

Can you read? I said earlier to vote for McCain if you want, just don't be a sucker about it.

[Danube of Thought]

I'd also pointed out that he adopted a child from Mother Theresa's orphanage, about which you will not hear much fanfare. But it sure doesn't seem to be the act of a "loser."

[Sara]

You can read about the "loser" in the citations and commendations first hand:

John McCain's Navy Records

[Cecil Turner]

I defy you to correct one thing in it.

What's to correct? It's all fluff. The well-known POW timeline interspersed with claims McCain was a "Wild man," "hot head," and hogging all the POW press. A rather silly claim he "represents the entrenched and bankrupt policies" . . . as if Butler's former POW status gives him special insight into what McCain's long senate career represents.

The guy is a leftist anti-war activist (convert, apparently, which generally means fanatic). Not surprisingly, he doesn't like McCain. Again, he could've written the short bio and left it at that. The fact you're impressed with it suggests . . . that you're a lefty as well. Gee, isn't that persuasive.

[Great Banana]

I said earlier to vote for McCain if you want, just don't be a sucker about it.

Well, you vote for Obama if you want, just don't pretend that the guy has any experience or qualifications - or that you have any idea what his political philosophy is (i.e., is he a moderate, far-left progressive, or full on marxist)?.

[Danube of Thought]

"I said earlier to vote for McCain if you want, just don't be a sucker about it."

We're certainly grateful for your permission to vote as we like. (Note that Phil Butler doesn't say he's voting for Obama, but maybe he's awaiting your approval to do so.)

And of course we treasure your invaluable advice.

[Hardy har har]

"It's what my kids call me."

Fine. I'm not your kid though. So for me to address you as Daddy is, well, weird.

But it's no big deal.

Anyway, I am just a troll. Bye and everyone have a good day.

[Hardy har har]

"The guy is a leftist anti-war activist...The fact you're impressed with it suggests . . . that you're a lefty as well."

Yep. And anytime you encounter some mouth-foaming let's bomb Iran rightist war monger you drop your drawers.

So we're even. Later.

[Sara]

I would draw attention to his 2nd Legion of Merit award where it is mentioned that he served as Chaplain and provided spiritual guidance, instilled constructive rehabilitation and conducted religious services to his fellow POWs.

[Great Banana]

To be honest, my guess is that the McCain cross story is probably a fabrication (i.e, maybe it happened to someone else and he is claiming it to himself) or at least an exageration of what happened.

Unfortunately, politicians do this all the time, exagerate or creat little "incidents of great meaning" into their biographies. Or, in the same vein, they create people and give them stories - a la Gore's old lady who had to chose between food and medicine or Hillary's woman who did in childbirth - to make a point.

It is argument by anecdote, and I have never much cared for it.

But, if the McCain cross story did turn out to be a proveable fabrication or exaggeration and this is the worse thing McCain does - it is hardly something that is going to change many, if any, votes.

And, frankly, I wonder if the story itself changed any votes. At best, it helped to solidify his base, but I doubt it persuaded anyone to vote for McCain who was not going to do so already.

[Danube of Thought]

A troll who can't stand the heat, and just fled the kitchen after faring quite poorly.

[Sue]

We get the oddest trolls around here...

[Soylent Red]

I turn into a veritable Jamie Lee Curtis every time Italian is spoken to me!

I used to have a girlfriend who was greatly amused when I would grab her passionately and say, "Beneeeeeeto Mussoleeeeeni!"

As for Hardy and all the other twerps...

The louder you shriek, the more I know you got nuthin'.

Quibbling over details of McCain's POW experience in order to disprove it (and who but a nutter thinks he sat somewhere and fabricated these things?) is perhaps the most assinine thing I've ever seen.

If you've got contrary evidence, produce it (links, baby, links). Otherwise, as I've said, you've got nuthin'.

[Daddy]

DOT,

I eventually ran into about half a dozen of the POW's during my military and current civilian career whom I can say I had decent familiarity with. I haven't bumped into any now for about 5 years so I am reticent to start tossing out their names as I don't want to make it seem as if I am posting their current opinions etc. From your dinner discussion last night, can you tell me if there is any sort of impetus on the part of those guys to once again start publically stating their opinions on John McCain? If I was an editor I'd have my reporters write up a list of questions concerning McCain, his service in captivity, character etc, and send it out to every Hanoi POW I could locate, and then publish the results where ever they lead. If they don't wish to comment I can certainly understand that, but the fact that we are apparently not getting that effort just seems to me one more gross failure of our mainstream media. It'll be interesting, since Butler cursorily appears anti-McCain, to see if he now becomes the sole POW the MSM breathlessly rushes to for comment.

[The Ace]

Obama's still killing it on Tradesports. Like to see some of you geezers put your social secuirity money where your mouth is.

So was Kerry. On election day 2004.

You have no point.

[DrJ]

he adopted a child from Mother Theresa's orphanage...

Is that so? I have a friend who did the same, and she had to promise to raise the child as a Catholic. That was difficult for her, as she was a Baptist, but she has done so.

Do you know if McCain has mentioned anything about this? Surely this is a tangent...

[The Ace]

The real tragedy for McCain is that his captivity was his finest work. Since that time, he's pretty well a loser

As opposed to Ron Paul who had racist "news letters" published under his name and then lied about it.

You people are pathetic.

[Topsecretk9]

Since the cross in the dirt story was not in Solzhenitsyn's "The Gulag Archipelago", etc. ect

I think it's pretty funny so many believed the original KOS diarist who claimed he found an except from "The Gulag Archipelago" by Alexander Solzhenitsyn and alleged that McCain plagiarized it, even though he
Never linked to the except he said he found googling

I couldn't find "the excerpt of "The Gulag Archipelago" he found on google either. Maybe the Kos diarist made it all up, hmmm? Shouldn't he have to PROVE he got the excerpt from "The Gulag Archipelago" like he SAYS HE DID?

[Soylent Red]

Do you know if McCain has mentioned anything about this?

I believe this was the 17-year old daughter he referred to Saturday night. I think Cindy found her originally.

She has a cleft palette or some sort of physical deformity that required literally hundreds of thousands of dollars to get fixed.

Look into all the good work Cindy McCain has done in her lifetime and tell me she is not head and shoulders better than Bulldoggy. Or her self-absorbed hubby for that matter.

[Cecil Turner]

And anytime you encounter some mouth-foaming let's bomb Iran rightist war monger you drop your drawers.

If the alternative is to allow Iran to develop nuclear weapons . . . bombing 'em doesn't sound all that bad. You kumbaya singers take yourself out of the debate because you're stuck on the one note.

The louder you shriek, the more I know you got nuthin'.

Yeah, and desperately searching for someone with a service record to spout the party line. Out of several million vets, you'd think they could find a few more . . .

[Rick Ballard]

"We get the oddest trolls around here..."

Sue,

Think of JOM as an Axelrod test bed. Put out Meme A - see how quickly it's strangled, modify to Meme A.1 and retest.

Say, did you know that Obama is trying to hide the fact that he has a long term and very close relationship with a domestic terrorist by having a public institution hide the records of the work they did together?

[Sara]

There were two babies. Both were critical and not expected to live. Cindy rescued both of them and she and John adopted one, a McCain staffer and his wife adopted the other.

McCain has 7 children. His two sons have or are serving in Iraq.

[The Ace]

And anytime you encounter some mouth-foaming let's bomb Iran rightist war monger you drop your drawers.

And anytime you encounter a , hypocritical - yes Ron Paul has inserted earmarks in spending bills, racist, you drop your drawers. And call yourself a "libertarian."

[DrJ]

I believe this was the 17-year old daughter he referred to Saturday night. I think Cindy found her originally.

That's what I assumed; I just haven't looked into the details. Adoption is a good thing, and accepting a child with challenges is all the more so.

Still, I found the faith stipulation my friend mentioned to be very interesting, and had not heard anything about it in this instance. It makes sense, as Mother Theresa is Catholic (obviously). It could be that it was waived (owing to the circumstances) but I would doubt it.

[Sara]

McCain has actually adopted 3 children. The baby, from Mother Theresa's orphanage, and his two oldest boys. He adopted them when he married Carol. They were hers by a previous marriage. Then he had one more natural with Carol. Then 3 natural with Cindy plus the adopted daughter.

[Sara]

Sick... Obama Has Gall to Tell VFW He Has Not Waffled On Iraq

[Cecelia]

I certainly believe that ANYTHING McCain...or Kerry... says in the process of campaigning for the presidency, is open to scrutiny.

That said, certain pronouncements can be held to some objective criteria... was the U.S. cruising into Cambodia when Kerry stated he was cruising into Cambodia... and can get it be deigned realistic that a cross sign in the dirt might be a sign of Christianity in a situation where silence us required or a sign is needed for either Solzhenitsyn or McCain in order to transcend an essential silence necessity or a language barrier?

I'd say one of these things is not like the other... eh, Andrew?...

[Soylent Red]

Sara:

Whatever else can be said about the McCains, and particularly his wife, they are decent people.

Contrast just the amount of money spent by the McCains in doing good to what the Obama's spend. That alone tells a story.

[Neo]

But it turns out that this episode probably never happened to Solzhenitsyn at all, and according to a Solzhenitsyn biographer it appears nowhere in his published writing. Columbia University professor Michael Scammell, the author of Solzhenitsyn: A Biography, says the episode "never happened," and didn't appear in Solzhenitsyn's book, Gulag Archipelago, either.

So exactly who is the fool in this story ?

Hint: it's either Excitable Andy or he retarded researcher at Daily KOS (or both).

And what made excitable Andy go off half-cocked ?

[bgates]

Like to see some of you geezers put your social secuirity money where your mouth is
Boy, progressives sure do hate old people. And spelling.

As Ace reminded me, John Kerry made me a few hundred bucks on election day 2004. (Woulda made me a lot more if I had set up the tradesports account earlier - noon EST on election day Kerry was favored to win Florida 9:1, but I couldn't fund my account any more.)

I need to go over and put some money down against Obama. While I've dithered the past two weeks, he's already gone from 2:1 to 3:2. (For the benefit of you Paulistas, that's a drop.)

[centralcal]

Neo: I cannot stop laughing! Sully the fool and a laughingstock!!!

LUN

[DrJ]

Whatever else can be said about the McCains, and particularly his wife, they are decent people.

No question. I had no idea there were so many kids involved. They have done a good job keeping them out of the campaign.

[sylvia]

The difference is that McCain told a small private anecdote from his past which may or may not be accurate. If you listen to anyone's past stories, often times they do exagerate. However, the difference is Kerry possibly used his tall tales to embellish his military papework and change the official record and questionably receive medals, and involved his fellow soldiers in it. There is a measure of degree here. And for some reason no one was supposed to speak about it, not even his fellow crew members.

I think any past record is not off limits, military or otherwise. It all helps us learn about the candidate. Let the chips fall where they may. To do otherwise would be restricting our freedom of speech.

[sbw]

It would be nice if the trolls visiting would recognize that several of us who jaw on JOM believe that McCain is badly mistaken on some issues... but that even badly mistaken on those issues, McCain is unquestionably the better choice when compared to whichever Obama weathervanes into view today.

We don't need no Obama, and certainly none of his steenkin' friends.

[dualdiagnosis]

I'm thinking this came from McCain's team.

The left is on it like a mad dog on a bone, the voters will put them down in November.

[anduril]

I suppose I could've put this on the Mais Oui thread, just to be sarcastic, but...

NATO is getting tough. Gonna kick ass and take names--NOT!

NATO pulls its punches on penalty against Russia

NATO pulled its punches against Russia on Tuesday, suspending formal contacts as punishment for the Georgia invasion but bucking U.S. pressure for more severe penalties.

The Russian Ambassador to NATO played down the impact of the emergency meeting of the Western alliance.

"The mountain gave birth to a mouse," said Dmitry Rogozin.

...

In a small victory for the United States, NATO foreign ministers did agree to show support for Georgia's pro-Western government by creating a NATO-Georgia Commission to oversee the former Soviet republic's bid to join the alliance and begin providing military training to its army. [Comment: When Russia lets us.]

...

However, there was no consensus for more robust expressions of backing for Georgia or displeasure with Moscow.

"There are different sensibilities on this; there are states who want this process to move faster," Portuguese Foreign Minister Luis Amado said. "The alliance has to take united, firm position, but without being aggressive."

...

"The United States sought precisely what we got in this statement," said Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

[Comment: Talk about low expectations!]

Analysis: NATO grapples with the angry bear

... from France and Italy and Germany, its coalition government split between left and right, comes a more cautious tone. "Keep open the channels for talks" says German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steenmeier.

...

But what sign was there of a slap over the wrist for Russia, let alone a "concrete step" that deprived Moscow of its easy-odds victory?

Although Britain is reckoned to side with the NATO hawks rather than the doves, Miliband too insisted: "I think it's important we don't pursue a policy of trying to isolate Russia." What was needed, he suggested , was "hard-headed engagement." As opposed, one presumes, to "soft-headed engagement'"?

...

If the toughest warning Europe can offer in the present situation is to threaten a meeting of EU heads of government to review relations with Russia then Messrs Putin and Medvedev will hardly be phoning their medics to ask for pills to help them get their beauty sleep.

Georgia war spurred missile deal

Russia’s intervention in Georgia proved to be the spur that drove the US to strike a deal with Poland to build part of the missile defence shield on its territory, an accord that will be signed by Condoleezza Rice, US secretary of state, in Warsaw on Wednesday.

For months, US diplomats sought to avoid exacerbating Moscow's considerable irritation over the missile programme by only agreeing to the missile shield – which has little practical benefit to Poland. The missile defence programme is intended to counteract a threat from Iran, not Russia. But Poland sought Patriot missiles too, not so much as an effective defence but more as a symbol of US solidarity. US agreement to this represents unambiguous support for Poland amid Russia’s new assertiveness.

How about that. It was the Poles who were insisting: buck Russian irritation to show your solidarity with us, or no deal. It was the US that was driven to cave to Polish demands.

This just not in at all yet: no word from the NATO meeting on whether the Turks will allow us to send US naval ships through the Bosphorus to the Black Sea.

[windansea]

why bother with this smelly carp

you know the lefties just want to change the subject since Obama got whooped in the Saddleback forum

Above my pay grade is all anyone will remember anyway

[anduril]

Wait! I did put it on the Frenchie thread! I wanted to work in something about the soft sumthin' or other of low expectations--re Condi's statement--but couldn't think of something that really worked. Maybe hit and run can come up with something?

[David Walser]

In Sully's world, the rules are less clear, but let me guess at a summary - it is OK to attack Republicans.

In Sully's world it OK to attack anyone who's not in favor of same sex marriage. In his world, one's view on SSM determines character, world view, and fitness for office. Anyone who is wrong on this one issue is wrong on everything else. Which is why McCain must be defeated.

Now, it's true that Obama says that he's against SSM, but Sully doesn't believe him. He believes McCain when McCain says he's against SSM -- which proves to Sully that McCain is untruthful about everything else.

[PeterUK]

"It just means that McCain will say anything to get elected."

There is one abiding trait in the infantile wing of politics,that politicians should turn their backs on those they dislike or disagree with.
This would go down if the infants ever enter the work place.

"Good morning Dwayne".

"Screw you,you powky face old wazzock".

It helps to make the world go around.

[Jane]

The McCain's youngest, Bridget, is the adoptee, and she is also the basis for the anti-McCain rumors in 2000 that he fathered a black child, which some think tanked his chances in S.C.

As for the subject of the new thread, I'm calling it "Sullygate". The man is an unmitigated idiot and not particularly doing much for his cause - whatever that is this week.

[PeterUK]

"Doctor Phillip Butler

He is now a peace and justice activist with Veterans for Peace."

You can leave the rest out.BTW,do know if he was actually a friend of McCain's,or just in the same block?

[ben]

I don't know why anyone actually cares what Andrew Sullivan says or writes. A guy who claims he is a conservative supported Kerry and now is supporting Obama for President. There was an argument on whether Kerry was THE most liberal Senator or just one the five most liberal. There is an argument on whether Obama is a socialist or just extreme left. So Sullivan is so intellectually dishonest he should be dropped from any links or references and left to rot in trash bins of cyberspace.

[anduril]

ben, i don't care. i don't give a rat's ass about him. i don't give a flying...fig about him.

[bgates]

For months, US diplomats sought to avoid exacerbating Moscow's considerable irritation
It was the US that was driven to cave to Polish demands.
I'd rank the State Department somewhere below the Polish government in its eagerness to defend American interests. Though arguably somewhat above Moscow.

And as far as the French are concerned, I think that's the soft cheese of low expectations.

Soft cheese.

[Sara]

The following is from an online gossip site called Jossip. And you wonder at our trolls.

The race for the White House this year has been nothing if not a historic moment for gender and race issues, so it's only apropo that the commentators chosen by networks to moderate the debates reflect this change in socio-political discourse. That's why it's so refreshing to hear the Commission on Presidential Debates has chosen three old white guys to man the helm; Tom Brokaw for NBC, CBS's Bob Schieffer, and PBS's Jim Lehrer. Yeah, eff Andrea Mitchell, what with her lady parts and her stupid non-partisan politics. And screw Gwen Ifill, what with her full lips and broad nose. Stay the course, old white guys. Four more years!

[anduril]

bgates, i like it. it was a cheesy statement, after all. i can rest easy now.

[Sara]

He is now a peace and justice activist with Veterans for Peace."

You can leave the rest out.BTW,do know if he was actually a friend of McCain's,or just in the same block?

Or is he one of the guys mentioned by Bud Day:

With the exception of those who cooperated with the V, most of the POWs were tortured. There were basically three kinds of torture—kneeling, ropes, and beating—each of which had numerous variations.

Kneeling on bare concrete was painful, especially when prisoners were kept on their knees for hours, but that was just the beginning. The V torturers used ropes in several ways. The prisoner might be suspended from an overhead beam, as happened to Day in Vinh. Ropes might also be used to pull a prisoner’s shoulder blades as close together as possible behind his back. This worked especially well with the guard’s boot in the prisoner’s back. Beatings were done with fists.

“Injuries were a bonus for the torturers,” Day said. Twisting or pulling on a broken bone caused excruciating pain, which the V found useful. The chief torturer at New Guy Village was the “Bug,” who was known to have killed at least five Americans. He had two assistants, “Straps and Bars” and “Jake.” As the torturers worked, a typewriter clicked away routinely across the hall, the clerk oblivious to the screaming.

[PeterUK]

"Of course, McCain made up the story. It's a complete lie fabricated to dupe gullible Christians"

That's for you to prove Hardon.

[daleyrocks]

Has anyone seen Andrew Sullivan and Keith Olbermann in the same place together? Just Askin'.

I don't get cable so I can't watch Olberdouche's show even if I had the inclination, which I don't.

[Greenwood]

"Has anyone seen Andrew Sullivan and Keith Olbermann in the same place together? Just Askin'."

I have the video.

[MarkO]

It seems to me that when we attempt to determine the truthfulness of someone’s statement we can fairly examine it to determine whether it is a fabrication designed to improve the person’s position. If we look at the McCain cross story in that light, it is difficult to find much there that advances McCain. To repeat myself (which I do substantially lately), the story makes the guard out to be heroic, not McCain. It is the guard who risks potential death by the action (whatever it was) that communicates the cross. McCain merely watches. How does this add to McCain’s resume? How does this make him more a part of the religious right? This does not seem to be the sort of story that would advance McCain with any political group. Contrast this with the Kerry in Cambodia story which suggests great bravery on his part in leading a crew into hostile waters and also damns the government that illegally let him intrude into those waters. In that case, Kerry comes off the hero. How does McCain do the same with this rather lame story.

We can also examine the story as if it were a mistaken observation–which I think it well could have been. McCain is injured, likely never in much of his right mind. A guard comes in and either with his foot or something disturbs the dirt. Out of that disturbance McCain sees a universal sign of hope and compassion: the cross. He wasn’t healed suddenly. He did not see Cambodia on the horizon. It was a guard moving dirt. He may have so wanted to see something hopeful that he saw a cross. Foot or staff—the object moving the dirt was irrelevant and still is to the story. So, you can give less weight to the motives of the guard, but still accept the story for what it is.

Maybe, and who knows, he recalls this now in the context of something religious, but it really isn’t about his religiosity, it is about the heroism and religion of someone unknown and not running for office. To match the works of Kerry or Obama, McCain would have to have drawn the cross himself along with a line past which the guards were not to come—then, behold, they fell in a stupor and he escaped. Ooops. That’s a bit too much even for them.

Keep it up. McCain a POW. Obama a, well, help me here

[MayBee]

Ok, Andy and the http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/19/162329/868/983/570573>Kossacks are on to their next brilliant thought.

The Bush Administration: McCain Was NOT Tortured (Per Andrew Sullivan) [snip] According to the Bush administration's definition of torture, McCain was therefore not tortured. ...[snip] Wow. This article's argument really resonates. It took no time at all for this sparse, citation diary to shoot to the top of the rec list. Kudos to Andrew Sullivan for his brilliant thinking here.

I agree with some of you folks who've posted that this message should be not only argued but used in a commercial, billboards--you name it. It's a powerful, simple McCain smackdown. And it is, imo, irrefutable.

[Jane]

I thought the Kossacks wanted McCain tortured so they could argue that he was daft. Next thing you know, they will be arguing McCain is too young to be president.

[Sara]

Oh puhleeze, McCain was the acting Chaplain and spiritual leader for the POWs. He was awarded the Legion of Merit for his outstanding performance in this role while a held captive. Is it so inconceivable that a guard would indicate some respect and sympathy for McCain and his demonstrated faith. No, it isn't. Obviously, there was one or more religiously sympathetic guards as the Denton story of the replaced woven cross demonstrates. McCain didn't have to imagine a cross in the dirt. And he didn't need a cross in the dirt either. He had been acting as religious leader to the group and conducting services long before the cross in the dirt event happened. It is probably because of McCain's spiritual leadership, as witnessed by the guard, that motivated him to reveal himself to McCain.

[Greenwood]

Unfortunately for the Tossacks,McCain has the scars.Unlike John F.Kerry,real witnesses.

[windansea]

It's so stupid!!!

not as stupid as enrolling here as Via Ron Paul and then changing it to Viva Ron Paul

[Greenwood]

Christians have been making secret sigbs since the beginning of AD.

[windansea]

You people are pathetic.

these aren't real Paulistas, they drool more

[Sara]

I'm reposting this, since I posted it in the wrong thread.

Rachel Maddow to Replace Dan Abrams on MSNBC

Yes, that Rachel Maddow from Air America.