John Broder of the Times writes on Obama and abortion. Here is his Atrios/Begala defying lead:
WASHINGTON — Sixteen years ago, the Democratic Party refused to allow Robert P. Casey Sr., then the governor of Pennsylvania, to speak at its national convention because his anti-abortion views, stemming from his Roman Catholic faith, clashed with the party’s platform and powerful constituencies. Many Catholics, once a reliable Democratic voting bloc, never forgot what they considered a slight.
Sure, that seems like the Conventional Wisdom but Atrios went animal on this topic in 2005 (OK, he went "Wanker") and it re-surfaced in 2008. I back the CW.
The article has an amusing headline:
Obama’s View on Abortion May Divide Catholics
His view? His view seems to be that of a typical lefty abortion-rights extremist. I'm not sure that "divides" Catholics; "defies" might be better.
Now, Obama may have appeal to Catholics on other grounds, such as his environmental posturing or oppositon to US involvement in Iraq (in his words, "ending" the war), or simply a typical Dem working class appeal. So it may be fair to say that Catholics are divided on Obama's candidacy. But the article does not (at a quick read) support the notion that Obama's view on abortion has in itself created controversy and sparked debate within the Cathiolic community.
MORE: Hot Air on Obama and Catholics; Brendan Nyhan recycles the Begala/Carville/Atrios spin, with the part of Atrios played by Media Matters.
Wanker? LOL
Have you been coferring with PUK on appropriate names for lefties?
Having had three children play competitive soccer at a pretty high level, this is not a word that is used in polite company. Of course soccer hooligans are anything but polite and it is screamed at your opponent at the top of your lungs if necessary, to make sure he understands your contempt.
For Atrios I share your sentiments Mr. M.
Posted by: GMax | August 07, 2008 at 09:29 AM
Obama has working class appeal? I guess if one thinks that not having to do a useful day of work ever is appealing, Obama would certainly qualify.
Posted by: pagar | August 07, 2008 at 09:37 AM
The polling shows that Catholics are the most important swing group this year. Expect Catholicism to suffer massive misunderstanding for the next three months.
=====================================
Posted by: kim | August 07, 2008 at 09:41 AM
Well now I shudder to point to Zogby on anything, but his most recent national poll had McCain winning Catholics by 15%. Given Hispanics are overwhelming Catholics and still a net plus for Obama, ( I think ) that would mean white Catholics, are running from Obama in great numbers. Think Pennsylvania and Wisconsin and to a lesser extent Michigan for the impact here.
Posted by: GMax | August 07, 2008 at 09:49 AM
If you hven't seen the latest "Praising McCain" Youtube, it's worth watching.
LUN
Posted by: Jane | August 07, 2008 at 09:49 AM
Everyone who's interested has probably already read up on the anthrax case, so I won't post any more links. For those who want to criticize the FBI I offer this link to an outstanding Steve Sailer discussion: The Anthrax Lag.
Posted by: anduril | August 07, 2008 at 09:59 AM
Once Catholics learn about Obama's shameful behavior in the Illionis State Senate, blocking the Born Alive Act, they will desert him in droves, no matter what their party.
Posted by: bio mom | August 07, 2008 at 10:04 AM
Jane: I love that the video closes with Hillary's contrast of McCain and Obama!
Wonderful.
Posted by: centralcal | August 07, 2008 at 10:14 AM
The polling results on Catholics must have Dems quaking in their boots, or whatever footwear Dems favor. By most measures this SHOULD be a Dem year among Catholics, so the polling results must be pretty directly attributable to the Dem candidate: The One. Can attempts to tie McCain to the likes of Hagee overcome this type of gut revulsion? I tend to doubt it--demonstrating that the other guy is a bit of a goof, too, doesn't overcome that type of gut revulsion. The remedy is to overcome the gut revulsion, and right now that's a tough one. Could Dem horror at such polling results lead to Dem second thoughts at the convention? We'll see.
Posted by: anduril | August 07, 2008 at 10:15 AM
Something interesting may happen in Denver:
Posted by: Patrick R. Sullivan | August 07, 2008 at 10:56 AM
.."only days ago Obama said he wanted the delegates to have full votes."
Yes, when I heard that I wondered if that might not be a particularly unwise thing for Obama to do.
Posted by: hrtshpdbox | August 07, 2008 at 11:10 AM
Not to hijack the thread; but did the FBI explain how Ivins got hold of the Dugway, Utah strains, and how he got to NJ; to mail
the envelopes to NY, Fl. et al. If it is Ivins, which it seems more likely, its interestingly how he never seemed to pop on the radar of the people supposedly in the know: Nass, Rosenberg, Kristof, Rozen, et al. It must be those subliminal messages that only they can hear; like the 'wolf whistle' of Rhodesia that set them like wolves on to Hatfill.
In other news, the ruling coalition in Pakistan has decided that the most important
issue of the day; is to (wait for it)
. . .impeach Musharaf. Well they're only slightly more crazy than their brethren over here, but you would think with sky high fuel prices, car bombings every other week, they would have some more important
things to worry about. Silly me, they can't go after AQ, because that would just anger them. They can't go after the ISI, because they will kill you, dead. So Musharaff seems a suitable subject to be used as a scapegoat.
Posted by: narciso | August 07, 2008 at 11:16 AM
I am pretty sure Obama removed delegates in both states and replaced them with his supporters, thus his change of heart. This guy grew up in Chicago, when you smile you not only insert the knife but then you twist it hard, and the smile never stops. If he is for new delegates its cuz an unfortunate and tragic accident has befallen an opponent and there is just little he can do but soldier on.
Posted by: GMax | August 07, 2008 at 11:17 AM
From the Broder piece:
Chaput is no shrinking violet and it would be unsurprising to see a strong pastoral message prior to the convention. Bill Donahue's acceptance of Hagee's apology moves that issue to the edge of the table, if it doesn't push it off on the floor. Donahue went right for the throat on Obama's support for infanticide in the same clip. He doesn't appear to be backing off.
The One is going to have to consult with Himself and try to find a new exit. Given His absolute and appalling ignorance of basic Christian theological tenets (as revealed in the interview which Bad linked) one might suppose that The One will be working from the Gospel of Obama as revealed by Himself to Himself (and subject to His revision, as expedience may demand).
Posted by: Rick Ballard | August 07, 2008 at 11:21 AM
I am a practicing Catholic and there is no compromising on the abortion question in Catholic theology. None. No other issue rises to the level of abortion as an issue. Not war, death penalty, poverty, or anything else. Not to a true Catholic.
Posted by: bio mom | August 07, 2008 at 11:36 AM
And lets not forget the PUMA factor in making nice with the pro-life crowd.
Posted by: bad | August 07, 2008 at 11:36 AM
Sen. Robert Casey Jr. "souled" out for a Senate seat.
Posted by: Neo | August 07, 2008 at 11:41 AM
Kwamie Kilpatrick goes to jail for a probation violation. (see Drudge)
Can Mrs Waxman be far behind?
Posted by: Jane | August 07, 2008 at 11:42 AM
Althouse has video of convention discussion between Hillary and some supporters. Listen for sexual references. (unintended, of course)
LUN
also linked at instapundit
Posted by: bad | August 07, 2008 at 11:54 AM
Bio Mom,
If you had the misfortune to have been raised and taught within a diocese where the focus was on some sort of liberation theology, and did not pursue the teaching beyond what someone (like, Fr. Pfleger, say) presented, you might have a different perspective. I don't disagree with your conclusion, I'm just pointing out that there are many Catholics who believe themselves to be true to their faith who have received an incomplete (and sometimes false) education regarding the application of core tenets.
Posted by: Rick Ballard | August 07, 2008 at 11:57 AM
Jane: I think you mean Mrs. Conyers?
Posted by: centralcal | August 07, 2008 at 12:04 PM
Something that puzzles me. Obama has said that the first thing he'll do as President is to sign the Freedom of Choice Act. Doesn't Congress first have to decide whether or not it's going to arrive on his desk? So far it hasn't made it out of the Judiciary Committee. I guess Obama won't be held any of that "checks and balances" stuff that regular Presidents have to abide by. He'll just sign legislation that appeal to him.
Posted by: Porchlight | August 07, 2008 at 12:05 PM
Obama wants to be president because it no longer is what it once was. And it wasn't a compliment. Is he longing for a return to slavery, Jim Crow, back alley abortions, or what? Maybe he just wants to go back before the tire gauge...
Hot air has the video.
LUN
Posted by: bad | August 07, 2008 at 12:13 PM
Porchlight, I think they're called decrees.
Posted by: pagar | August 07, 2008 at 12:14 PM
Why is this clown more complimentary of Germany than the nation he wants to run?
Posted by: Elliott | August 07, 2008 at 12:16 PM
Sorry, my link was bad - here's another with more context, from the National Catholic Register.
There's actually not much news reporting of his statement on the Freedom of Choice Act (almost all the Google hits are on advocacy sites, for and against). Unsurprising.
Posted by: Porchlight | August 07, 2008 at 12:22 PM
Hoe tough is it to memorize a little blurb about why he wants to be president. His answer makes it appear he hadn't given any thought to the question previously.
Posted by: bad | August 07, 2008 at 12:24 PM
Why ANYONE, Catholic or Atheist or Obamaist, would want to listen to a speech given by the mentally deficient Casey, who talkth with a lithp is beyond me.
Posted by: centralcal | August 07, 2008 at 12:24 PM
Ah, yes, I guess we are marking the coming 16th anniversary of when my husband, the Pennsylvania Catholic, departed the Democratic Party. As he said at the time, a party with no room for Bob Casey has no room for him. And we're pretty liberal Catholics...
Posted by: cathyf | August 07, 2008 at 12:35 PM
Porchlight,
Thanks for the link - which led to Fr. Neuhas' response to Kmiec. Unsurprisingly well reasoned and remarkably clear. As always.
Posted by: Rick Ballard | August 07, 2008 at 12:42 PM
I'm sure I could look it up somewhere, but how did John Kerry do with the Catholic vote? I can't recall who it was who set off a brief brouhaha by saying that Kerry was not fit for communion, but I don't think it actually shifted a lot of votes, did it? There are plenty of Democratic Catholic office holders and voters, so I certainly think it's fair to say that Catholics are divided on this issue as a practical, not doctrinal, matter.
Posted by: JM Hanes | August 07, 2008 at 12:52 PM
I think you mean Mrs. Conyers?
That's right! Mrs Waxman is in the future.
Thanks!
Posted by: Jane | August 07, 2008 at 12:53 PM
Heard a clip of Michelle Obama saying that Barack Hussein couldn't be an elitist because he hadn't had the kind of advantages that make one an elitist, growing up with a single Mom and all.
O.K.
Private schools in Hawaii.
Columbia University
Harvard
Fellowships
Illinios State Senator
U.S. Senator.
Now, how in the world could he be an elitist?
Posted by: Pofarmer | August 07, 2008 at 01:03 PM
JM Hanes-
I'm sure I could look it up somewhere, but how did John Kerry do with the Catholic vote?
When the Wa-Po was weather-ballooning Gov. Kaine for the Obama campaign a week or so ago, I looked it up-Bush 52%-Kerry 47%, but didn't look at the state splits. I'm not sure how a bit of genuflecting with giving Sen. Casey a speech at the convention will help, when he couldn't close the gap with PA Catholics in the primary.
I'll have to drop a link for the transcript I found of Obama's speech in the Illinois Senate stating his opposition for the Born Alive Protection Act-it was an eye-opener.
Posted by: RichatUF | August 07, 2008 at 01:07 PM
JM Hanes-
I'm sure I could look it up somewhere, but how did John Kerry do with the Catholic vote?
When the Wa-Po was weather-ballooning Gov. Kaine for the Obama campaign a week or so ago, I looked it up-Bush 52%-Kerry 47%, but didn't look at the state splits. I'm not sure how a bit of genuflecting with giving Sen. Casey a speech at the convention will help, when he couldn't close the gap with PA Catholics in the primary.
I'll have to drop a link for the transcript I found of Obama's speech in the Illinois Senate stating his opposition for the Born Alive Protection Act-it was an eye-opener.
Posted by: RichatUF | August 07, 2008 at 01:10 PM
And going ot for a bit: saw this via drudge
Jobless claims rose 7k to 455k-and the end is neigh. This is a question for Rick: could the Ford & GM buy-outs be distorting the unemployment numbers? Also Chrysler has idled some plants and wonder if that might also be distorting the numbers some as that would eventually feed through the auto supply chain?
graf (also why might the numbers have risen, unemployment offices are looking for unemployed people)-
Posted by: RichatUF | August 07, 2008 at 01:35 PM
And going ot for a bit: saw this via drudge
Jobless claims rose 7k to 455k-and the end is neigh. This is a question for Rick: could the Ford & GM buy-outs be distorting the unemployment numbers? Also Chrysler has idled some plants and wonder if that might also be distorting the numbers some as that would eventually feed through the auto supply chain?
graf (also why might the numbers have risen, unemployment offices are looking for unemployed people)-
Posted by: RichatUF | August 07, 2008 at 01:36 PM
Abortion, PUMAs, superdelegates...The DNC already has its hands full and along comes this problem for them:
D'ya suppose Obama will take sides?
LUN
Posted by: bad | August 07, 2008 at 01:37 PM
Mrs. Waxman???
Is there really such a thing? lol, Jane!
Posted by: glenda waggoner | August 07, 2008 at 01:41 PM
An interesting piece by Goldsmith,
the'sensible'conservative in the OLC; who writes in the New Republic, about Lichtblau's "Bush Justice Department" or what ever the title is:href<http://www.tnr.com/booksarts/story.html?id=5a68f45e-c100-4850-b7fef99c7db36bc1y>
Apparently, he takes Lichtblau to task for his disclosures of the TSP and the SWIFT financial tracking program; he even invokes Sect. 798 of the Federal Code, that Mr. Schoenfeld, made a point, of citing as a possible indictment against the Times. He believes that just because the Times is guilty shouldn't be prosecuted; and of course Bush secrecy, yadda, yadda. But is interesting how a more nuanced picture arises it. Benjamin Wittes, another critic
of Gitmo, in the New Republic and the Atlantic; has come around to the idea of a "National Security Court" in between the tribunal system, and the conventional civilian or even military courtmartial. Phillip Bobbit, a LBJ relation as it turns,
has made similar arguments, even accepting that the "War on Terror" is the right meme. But here's the thing, we've never tried unlawful combatants by court system; Quirin
was in fact perfunctory, and for obvious reasons, we don' try them by court martial.
The only system that really applies in this case, is military tribunal; maybe more of Milligan standards than Quirin; yet this is
the system; they've sandbagged for nearly the last 7 years!
Posted by: narciso | August 07, 2008 at 02:08 PM
Porchlight:
"I guess Obama won't be held any of that "checks and balances" stuff that regular Presidents have to abide by."
Ditto on taxing windfall profits and bribing voters with rebates. I call it the Abracadabra Plan. Of course, all presidential candidates ignore cold hard constitutional realities, but given the high profile Democratic obsession with Unitary Executive Theory, their ostensible nominee does seem to have an ironically expansive view of presidential powers.
Ultimately, however, I think Instapundit nailed the underlying dynamic. Revisiting Early-Obama assertions on not running for office in 2008, he commented:
Someone similarly suggested that having made an off-the-cuff debate commitment to negotiating unconditionally with Ahmadinejad, Obama was then compelled to double down on what was essentially accidental foreign policy.My own theory posits Obama as a beauty pageant finalist responding to some inevitable variation on the If-I-Were-President-I-Would question.
Posted by: JM Hanes | August 07, 2008 at 02:13 PM
M.Simon,
I just read your piece about Carol McCain. I remember distinctly when this issue came up in 2000. Carol was approached and said nothing but nice things about her ex-husband, in such an open-armed way that the whole issue immediately went away. Hopefully that can be replicated this year.
Posted by: Jane | August 07, 2008 at 02:16 PM
I watched Andrea Mitchell again today. A small segment only, so I don't know how she acted in earlier or later segments. The economic expert she had on said Obama's windfall profit tax against oil companies had been tried in the 70s and would not pay for itself. Anyone who believed that it would was flat wrong. Andrea stuttered her way to the end. She must not have had the nerve to challenge his expertise on the subject.
Posted by: Sue | August 07, 2008 at 02:20 PM
Rich,
There's definitely an employment "sector squeeze" going on with autos. It includes Toyota as well as GM and Ford so I can't say that the accelerated buyouts are key. I have a relative who works the dealer auctions (credit, which is lease, and large fleet) for one of the majors and he reports an inventory hangover for SUVs that is truly incredible. He's a forty year man and has never seen anything remotely like it.
I follow SS revenue data (particularly HI) more than BLS numbers. The Q2 YOY number for the FICA portion was +4.9% vs +3.5 for Q1. The total comparison (including SECA) showed a Q2 YOY of +5.3% vs +3.5% in Q1. All that is consonant with Q4 '07 being the 'low' (actually flat) spot.
The automotive sector is definitely a drag at the moment and may remain so until at least next spring. It's not as if retooling to build more tiny death traps can occur overnight.
Posted by: Rick Ballard | August 07, 2008 at 02:34 PM
Once Catholics learn about Obama's shameful behavior in the Illionis State Senate, blocking the Born Alive Act, they will desert him in droves, no matter what their party.
And not just Catholics, one would hope. Humans?
Posted by: jimmyk | August 07, 2008 at 02:40 PM
Excellent point, jimmyk!
Posted by: centralcal | August 07, 2008 at 02:50 PM
I'm under tornado watch. I can honestly say that's a first for me. Supposedly it's been sighted Northwest of here, traveling away from me. If it gets nearer do I go into the basement of the building into the bathroom?
(sheesh you would think I would know that)
Posted by: Jane | August 07, 2008 at 03:05 PM
From this 2005 article, a good analysis of the Democrat's declining Catholic vote:
Posted by: SWarren | August 07, 2008 at 03:09 PM
Jane- basement or interior bathroom on a warning. On a watch, just take a moment to put some lipstick on in case you do end up getting blown out onto the street. You don't want to look unattractive when Anderson Cooper uses your picture to demonstrate how Bush's global warming is causing tornadoes that terrorize Massachusetts.
Posted by: MayBee | August 07, 2008 at 03:14 PM
JMH, I agree that Obama never thought he'd get this far this year. In a sense we're lucky he did, as he may be less formidable now as a rookie than he would be as a more seasoned Senator down the road.
The problem is that the tyro might actually win.
Posted by: Porchlight | August 07, 2008 at 03:15 PM
MayBee,
LOL.
Posted by: Sue | August 07, 2008 at 03:16 PM
Jane
Basement or lowest floor possible,
inside room (one with no exterior walls) with no windows,
preferebly under a stair case because of the extra framing
BE SAFE
Posted by: bad | August 07, 2008 at 03:16 PM
Jane - lowest sturdiest place. Could be in the basement if framed well. Could be in an old-style tub if cast iron. Could be an indoor door opening. Protect yourself.
Posted by: sbw | August 07, 2008 at 03:17 PM
Here is an older article about the Born Alive Infant Protection Act.
And here is a blog post going through Obama's 10 reasons for blocking and voting against Born Alive Infant Protection act.
And here is the IL senate transcript: it isn't copy/paste -able, but is searchable. Obama's comments begin on p.85
Also thanks Rick for the link.
Posted by: RichatUF | August 07, 2008 at 03:18 PM
Here is an older article about the Born Alive Infant Protection Act.
And here is a blog post going through Obama's 10 reasons for blocking and voting against Born Alive Infant Protection act.
And here is the IL senate transcript: it isn't copy/paste -able, but is searchable. Obama's comments begin on p.85
Also thanks Rick for the link.
Posted by: RichatUF | August 07, 2008 at 03:19 PM
Am I the only one with the hiccups. Really sorry about that.
Posted by: RichatUF | August 07, 2008 at 03:20 PM
I wish Drudge would take down that picture Where Obama looks puckered up to plant one on Hillary. It's creepy...
Posted by: bad | August 07, 2008 at 03:21 PM
On a watch, just take a moment to put some lipstick on in case you do end up getting blown out onto the street.
The warning has ended. SO now I'm just gonna laugh at Maybee.
I thought "basement bathroom" so I'm glad I could still access the recesses of my brain.
Posted by: Jane | August 07, 2008 at 03:25 PM
Relax, Jane. Go outside and enjoy the view. The chances of being hit by a tornado are miniscule.
If, however, you see a funnel headed toward you, take everyone else's advice. And quickly. Grab the cat, too, if you can find her.
==============================
Posted by: kim | August 07, 2008 at 03:28 PM
Glad the danger's passed, Jane. I still remember huddling with my mom and brothers in the basement on April 3, 1974 (we were living in Louisville). That was exciting and fun for us kids but not so much for my mom, as my dad was on his way home from work when it struck.
Posted by: Porchlight | August 07, 2008 at 03:30 PM
Pro-choice advocates make a vigorous response to being tagged with the name "pro-abortion." They say that they are personally against abortion but are unwilling to make the choice for someone else, or advocate, like Bill Clinton, "safe, legal and rare." So it needs to be pointed out that Obama really is "pro-abortion" (and pro-infanticide!) in a way that the vast majority of pro-choice advocates most assuredly are not.
Yeah, this can't be emphasized enough that Obama is not a mainstream abortion-rights supporter. He voted against a bill that, when an equivalent bill came up in the US Senate, passed unanimously.Posted by: cathyf | August 07, 2008 at 03:38 PM
If you have a storage closet or room under a stairway in the interior of the house that can also be a good place in a tornado. Interior room away from flying objects and broken glass, and the stairwells are well reinforced and should better withstand the forces of the wind.
Posted by: GMax | August 07, 2008 at 03:41 PM
Good Lord. 5-1/2 years for the driver of bin Laden.
Posted by: Sue | August 07, 2008 at 03:49 PM
Wankers?
Aren't Catholics against that too?
Posted by: Crunchy Frog | August 07, 2008 at 03:53 PM
Us Texas folk dont have anything resembling what you yankees call a "basement"!
Posted by: GMax | August 07, 2008 at 03:53 PM
The sentence doesn't bother me Sue. At least from a political standpoint it will give the tribunals credibility.
Posted by: Jane | August 07, 2008 at 03:54 PM
Also mattresses pulled off of the bed and taken down into the basement/bathroom/closet help. And if you are in the basement, going underneath the basement stairs, or underneath a sturdy table (like a workbench) is good.
I have a friend whose sister-in-law took the baby and toddler and dragged the mattress off of the toddler's twin bed and climbed into the tub and pulled the mattress over them. When the tornado passed and she pushed the mattress off of them, two of the three walls around the tub formed the tallest structure remaining in the entire housing development. When they rebuilt the house she moved the tub over into the corner of the yard and made it part of her landscaping.
Posted by: cathyf | August 07, 2008 at 03:55 PM
I'm glad the watch has ended, Jane. At least you had a good story to post this afternoon. I only have risking getting caught in a thunderstorm to have a red wine filled lunch in Boston's North End (I made it back to my office before the rains and the only tornado going on here is the one in my vino-filled head)!
Posted by: Thomas Collins | August 07, 2008 at 03:57 PM
Peter Kirsanow on the NYT piece:
The answer to the last question is "Not if they don't want to be accused of working for McCain."
Posted by: Rick Ballard | August 07, 2008 at 04:00 PM
The sentence doesn't bother me Sue. At least from a political standpoint it will give the tribunals credibility.
I didn't realize justice was dependent upon politics until Bush was elected.
Posted by: Sue | August 07, 2008 at 04:02 PM
Wow, cathyf. That is an amazing story. It's always been hard for me to believe that the bathtub could offer that much protection, but I believe it now.
Posted by: Porchlight | August 07, 2008 at 04:08 PM
TM, Bob Beckel at RCP says it doesn't matter what Obama's position has been in the past on an issue, which one presumes covers abortion as well:
-----
LUN
Posted by: bad | August 07, 2008 at 04:20 PM
Jane: Glad you didn't have to run for the bath tub!
Maybee: Your advice was hysterical and so right on.
OT, I saw somewhere (the Corner?) that protestors greeted Nancy Pelosi at a book signing in Coral Gables, Florida. I instantly thought of Clarice's mom! But, then I thought, nah, I think she is a Liberal -- or is that your mother, Jane? Anyway, the seniors in Florida are giving Madame Speaker what for!
Posted by: centralcal | August 07, 2008 at 04:22 PM
Also, Sue, I saw Jennifer Griffith on Fox News talking about the Hamdam verdict. I find her to be highly credible in all of her mid-east related reporting. She indicated that the verdict, while a surprise, was probably a fair one. He was apparently really low hanging fruit.
Posted by: centralcal | August 07, 2008 at 04:26 PM
On the subject of Liberal Catholics, I have stolen a wonderful line from George Will (talking about Jerry Brown, ex-Gov. Moonbeam):
"Brown, a Catholic in everything but theology..."
Sadly, there are quite a few of these kind of Catholics.
Posted by: centralcal | August 07, 2008 at 04:35 PM
The best way to avoid the abortion issue is to pay attention to how best to care for unwanted children. Wantedness is the critical indicator of educational success.
Posted by: sbw | August 07, 2008 at 04:41 PM
Good Lord. 5-1/2 years for the driver of bin Laden.
He said he was sorry.
Posted by: Bill in AZ | August 07, 2008 at 04:46 PM
There are people who have been convicted of drug usage that are serving longer sentences than this man got. Somewhere I saw where he just did it for the money. Well freakin' yeah. That's what criminals do.
Posted by: Sue | August 07, 2008 at 05:04 PM
Obamamessiah only up by four in Wisconsin (Rasmussen) and by three in Oregon (Survey USA)...let's hope he has to put lots of $$$ to try to hold these states.
Posted by: ben | August 07, 2008 at 05:24 PM
THe Hamdan sentence is another data point that is consistent with my conviction that current US military justice is not synonymous with kangaroo court.
The military justice feature of an extenuation and mitigation hearing on sentencing often has the effect of seemingly light sentences. That evidence was taken very seriously in my experience. It appears that it was in this case too.
Posted by: Jim Rhoads aka vnjagvet | August 07, 2008 at 05:48 PM
This excerpt from the NYT reporters seems pretty balanced, and is consistent with the kind of arguments made in a combat theatre 40 years ago. I think it is worth reading in full:
Under the rules here, four votes were required to impose a sentence of ten years or less. A sentence of more than ten years would require a vote of five of the six panel members.
Under military rules, a Pentagon official who has broad power over the military commission system here, Susan J. Crawford, has the power to reduce a military panel’s sentence but not to increase it. Ms. Crawford, who has the title of convening authority, is to review the decision here. After her decision, Mr. Hamdan’s lawyers can begin an appeals process at a military appeals court and then in civilian federal courts.
Mr. Hamdan’s statement was an unsworn plea for mercy permitted by the rules here. An unsworn statement is permitted to an accused instead of taking the witness chair and risking cross examination.
Mr. Hamdan, looking worn after a two-week trial, spoke in the makeshift courtroom here, saying his ties to Mr. bin Laden were “a work relationship only” and claiming that he had been troubled by the bombing of the American destroyer Cole in 2000 that killed 17 sailors.
He said he had once had a relationship of mutual respect with Mr. bin Laden but that after the Cole bombing, his views about his boss “changed a lot.” He said he needed money and had returned to work with Mr. bin Laden because he felt he had few options.
But a prosecutor, John Murphy, ridiculed the idea that a man would work for a killer instead of seeking other employment. He argued that there was no place for mercy, urging the panel to impose a sentence of no less than 30 years and possibly life, the maximum.
“Your sentence,” Mr. Murphy said, “should say the United States will hunt you down and give you a harsh but appropriate sentence if you provide material support for terrorism.” He argued for justice for the victims of al Qaeda’s terror attacks.
A defense lawyer, Charles Swift, reminded the panel members that Mr. Hamdan had cooperated with interrogators, providing information about places in Afghanistan linked to Mr. bin Laden.
He said a long sentence would discourage other potential sources of information about terror organizations from working with American forces. “The reward for cooperation is life?” Mr. Swift asked. “Does that help us in this struggle?”
Mr. Swift, who has represented Mr. Hamdan through years of legal battles, did not offer a proposed sentence. But he noted that the only detainee who has been sentenced by a military commission here, Mr. Hicks, received a sentence of nine months. Mr. Hicks pleaded guilty to providing material support for terrorism last year and is now free.
Mr. Swift suggested that if the panel determined that Mr. Hamdan were five times more culpable than Mr. Hicks, the sentence would be 45 months, less than four years.
Mr. Swift, a former Navy lawyer, argued that a sentence in proportion to Mr. Hamdan’s participation as a driver would help make meaningful some future verdict against the planners of the 2001 terror attacks.
“At some point,” he said, “we will bring the people who conspired, the people who brought those buildings down, and that’s going to be a great day.”
Posted by: Jim Rhoads aka vnjagvet | August 07, 2008 at 05:55 PM
Thomas,
The storm was roaring down route 9 an hour and a half ago, so it you are going west keep your head down.
I didn't realize justice was dependent upon politics until Bush was elected.
Yeah I know, but as Centralcal pointed out, her really was low hanging fruit. Since the Judge said he was going to apply time served, he will probably be back in Yemen by Christmas.
Posted by: Jane | August 07, 2008 at 06:10 PM
Headline is wrong. Shouldn't be: "Obama’s View on Abortion May Divide Catholics." Should be: "Obama’s View on Abortion May Unite Catholics." All Catholics are against abortion. Obama is strongly in favor of abortion. Ergo all Catholics are against Obama. Anyone for Obama is no longer a Catholic no matter what they may claim.
Posted by: largebill | August 07, 2008 at 06:12 PM
It sent a great message to terrorists. As long as you just support it, you can get off saying you're sorry. I wonder why he wasn't offended by bin Laden's involvement in the Kenya-Tanzania bombings. Today is the anniversary of that bombing. Anyway, I just hope this
doesn't mean when they get 30 years we should be happy.
Posted by: Sue | August 07, 2008 at 06:23 PM
largebill,
Which brings me to JC Watts, my pick for McCain's VP. However, JC is not sure he will vote for McCain and left open the possibility he would vote for Obama. Guess race trumps abortion. I am very disappointed in JC. He doesn't have to vote for McCain but allowing for the possibility that he, with his pro-life, pro-conservative record, might consider voting for the most liberal senator makes me sad.
Posted by: Sue | August 07, 2008 at 06:50 PM
Armstrong Williams believes conservative blacks will have a hard time voting against Obama. It really makes me sad that the first black president will be someone like Obama. Just as I felt Hillary would have set women back a 100 years, I think Obama will do the same for blacks.
Posted by: Sue | August 07, 2008 at 06:52 PM
Theabu Obama story won't go away
Posted by: PeterUK | August 07, 2008 at 06:53 PM
Why is having a black president more significant than having say, a president from the Sioux Nation?
Posted by: PeterUK | August 07, 2008 at 06:57 PM
PUK,
You got me.
Posted by: Sue | August 07, 2008 at 07:01 PM
He is still an enemy combatant, so they don't have to let him go when his sentence is completed. Well, that's what they were saying on the news an hour or so ago.
Posted by: Sara | August 07, 2008 at 07:08 PM
Sue: Hopefully, he won't be the first black President. Today, anyway, I am thinking it doesn't look very likely. Tomorrow, who knows . . .?
Posted by: centralcal | August 07, 2008 at 07:11 PM
C-Cal,
Yeah, well the damage is already done for me with JC. I won't be able to trust him again.
Posted by: Sue | August 07, 2008 at 07:17 PM
PUK:
Why is having a black president more significant than having say, a president from the Sioux Nation?
I am calling for the Sue Nation!
Posted by: hit and run | August 07, 2008 at 07:27 PM
It would just be rather apt to have a native american as president,they were there first.
The black president campaign reminds me of the old Avis versus Hertz ad,"We may be smaller but we try harder".This brilliantly blanked out all the other competitors.
Hit are you attempting a coup whilst Clarice is away?
Posted by: PeterUK | August 07, 2008 at 07:38 PM
PUK,
Hit has his eyes on bigger game than JOM: Jeff Dobbs in Big Lights
Posted by: Ann | August 07, 2008 at 07:45 PM
PeterUK, thanks for the link about Abu Obama. That clears up a small mystery for me. I've been claiming that Obama got Muslim instruction at the Catholic school in Indonesia and that is wrong. It was after he left the Catholic school and went to public school that he got his Islamic instruction.
=====================================
Posted by: kim | August 07, 2008 at 07:45 PM
PUK:
Hit are you attempting a coup whilst Clarice is away?
I can neither confirm nor deny that.
Until it is complete.
Heh, Ann -- that's awesome. Go Dean Barnett!
Posted by: hit and run | August 07, 2008 at 07:49 PM
Congrats, Hit!!!
Posted by: Ann | August 07, 2008 at 07:54 PM
Sue Nation
Not a good idea, H&R. I don't think the world is ready for my brand of leadership, if Bush bothered them.
Posted by: Sue | August 07, 2008 at 07:55 PM
And Peace Be Upon Allahpundit!
Posted by: hit and run | August 07, 2008 at 07:55 PM