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August 15, 2008

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Porchlight

Can he spend it out into the future - for example can he purchase an ad buy now for October?

Good question, Jane. I don't nkow but I'll poke around and see if I can find anything.

Jim Miller

There's an interesting -- and possibly significant -- mistake in that Obama reply that Tom quotes. Obama said that Ayers is an English professor that lives in his neighborhood. Of course, Ayers is actually an education professor.

The simplest, and most likely, explanation is that Obama just made a verbal slip. But it is possible that he deliberately lied, knowing that most of us worry more about the values of our education professors than the values of our English professors. And he may have wanted to distract journalists from looking into his work with Ayers on "reforming" Chicago schools.

(I can not believe that an academic would not know what field his friend and supporter was in.)

MayBee

I'm fascinated by how many in the press have taken the Edwards story and used it as an excuse to bring up McCain's infidelity (ABC's Political Radar, Political Punch, CBS).
If that isn't old news, certainly Ayers isn't old news.

Lea

"Which, I should add, is why Clinton can't stand Obama. Bill recognizes a fellow artiste when he sees one. "

Maybe, but as far as the general goes, Clinton has several things going for him that Obama doesn't.

1. Experience. Clinton was a governor for many years and even though Arkansas is a small state, that's still boatloads more than Obama. He also had experience losing a statewide race, and I think he learned quite a bit from that.

2. Clinton is southern. He never talked down to the south, because he is the south. He knew how to talk to and relate to the 'common' folk, and doesn't have the taint of jerky I'm better than youness that Obama has. Obama is a chicago poll, which is just about corrupt as they come.

I think these are the major two things he can't overcome, even if he is a decent politician.

Foo Bar

When will Obama tell the truth, and why has he been lying?

Please. You're acting like Obama was asked to fill out a disclosure form in which he was obligated to list each and every time he and Ayers have crossed paths.

Here's a better example of a lie: McCain running an ad which claims Obama "promises more taxes" on "your family", when in fact he does not propose raising any form of taxes on families making less than $250K or individuals making less than $200K. I love how the McCain website links to factcheck.org to substantiate parts of the ad, when Fact Check's assessment of the ad itself points out that the "more taxes" on "your family" claim "is simply not true for the vast majority of viewers who will see it".

MayBee

Yeah, Foo, I know that's what Obama is kind of saying about taxes.
But I don't see how he starts
-subsidizing health insurance purchases
- giving $1000 cash payouts to ____(hard working Americans, I suppose)
- giving $4,000 fully refundable tax credits for college
-giving $7000 tax credits for hybrids

without raising a boatload of taxes. Do you?

michaelt

And is Obama planning on keeping the Bush tax cuts?

Jane

OT:

Because I'm the tawdry sort I've been looking more closely at the players in the Edwards scheme. Seems the lawyers are all interrelated, at least according to the NY Times. Gordon who represents Hunter was co-counsel with Baron on some asbestos (I think) litigation, and Andrew Young's lawyer, Pamela Marple represented both Gordon and Baron as co-defendants in another piece of litigation.

But more interestingly to me, is this from Marples bio:

Prior to joining McDermott, Pam was counsel and a litigation partner at prominent law firms in Washington, D.C. Earlier, she served the Governmental Affairs Committee of the U.S. Senate, as both Chief Counsel to the Minority on the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations and Deputy Chief Counsel to the Minority for the committee’s special investigation into campaign finance activities. In those roles, Pam managed investigative teams and strategy, examined witnesses during hearings, and worked closely with senators and their staffs. Prior to those positions, Pam was counsel to the Senate Judiciary Committee, where she worked on crime and oversight issues.

MayBee

Good point, Michael T. As I once understood it, Obama was going to let taxes go back to their higher rates. Who knows if he still intends to do that?

Ranger

Please. You're acting like Obama was asked to fill out a disclosure form in which he was obligated to list each and every time he and Ayers have crossed paths.

Posted by: Foo Bar | August 15, 2008 at 12:35 PM

Well, he was asked to explain the relationship, and he chose to lie, and lie in a way that would send any curious MSMers in the wrong direction.

To me the most dishonest part is where Obama said that '...this is not someone I exchange ideas with regularly.'

I would call working closely on education reform for years "exchanging ideas regularly."

Obama's answer was a lie from top to bottom. The problem for Obama is that in Hyde Park, when Bill Ayers says he's not sorry and he wished they'd done more every just laughs and says to themselves 'That Bill, he's such a hoot. It must have been cool to be in the Weather Underground.' It was cool to be friends with Bill. That's not how the "great unwashed" see it though.

Foo Bar

To me the most dishonest part is where Obama said that '...this is not someone I exchange ideas with regularly.'

I would call working closely on education reform for years "exchanging ideas regularly."

It's not really clear to me how closely they worked together, but in any event there's a distinction between present and past tense to be made here. Obama only chaired the board through 2000, i.e., 8 years ago.

RichatUF

Maybee-

Who knows if he still intends to do that?

Goolsbee tweaked the Obama camps tax platform recently so when the Bush tax cuts expire the cap gains only go up by about half or so of their previous rate. Others here can comment more authoritative but raising the individual income tax at 250K or so would seem to disproportionally hit small businesses.

Marginal Revolution had an analysis on the Obama proposed changes to the Hope Credit (education credit) which really stings 35k-55k income.

And to get back on topic, has anyone tracked down what happened to the money? Is it now sitting in Swiss accounts featherbedded for Chicago educrats' retirements? A bit stunning that a pot of nearly 50 million dollars would not only disappear, but its ostensible purpose-education reform-made the schools worse.

RichatUF

Foo Bar-

It's not really clear to me how closely they worked together, but in any event there's a distinction between present and past tense to be made here.

Ok then, find for me another high profile attempt at education reform in Chicago, which Obama was a party to, which worked?

MayBee

Foo Bar points out it depends on the meaning of "is". Yay!

Ranger

It's not really clear to me how closely they worked together, but in any event there's a distinction between present and past tense to be made here. Obama only chaired the board through 2000, i.e., 8 years ago.

Posted by: Foo Bar | August 15, 2008 at 01:07 PM

They also both participated on a pannel together, set up by Mrs. Obama on the role of the intilectual in a time of crisis in 2002, after Ayers had been unfortunately been quoted in the NYT saying "I wish we had done more" which was published on 9/11. That sounds like "exchanging ideas" to me.

But you can always use the arguement that:

It all depends on what the meaning of echange, is. If it means exchanging now, then the answer is no, But if it means exchanging now and never have exchanged, that is different.

Is that really the tac Obama's supporters wants to take on this?

Foo Bar

Ok then, find for me another high profile attempt at education reform in Chicago, which Obama was a party to, which worked?

??

I was responding to Ranger's accusation that Obama lied when he said that Ayers was not someone he exchanges ideas with regularly. If the Annenberg stuff ended several years ago, then that's hardly evidence that Obama currently exchanges ideas with Ayers regularly.

section9

One last thing about the importance of Georgia.

The "Legend Narrative" created by Obama and Axelrod was important to maintain because once it started to break down under the crush of "events, dear boy, events...", average registered voters were going to start asking themselves if they wanted to elect some ambitious young striver with no record to speak of.

Only to watch him get slapped around in Moscow by a real man and his KGB Leathercoat buddies.

The people around Obama think that Chicago politics is tough. They have no idea.

kim

The 'English Professor' bit lends the patina to his lie. See how casually I know him? I don't even know what he teaches.

This guy looks good until you look. And we are all looking.
==============================

LindaK

For those who think the Ayers/Dohrn association is not serious for BO, let me bring up the 1981 Brink's armored car robbery in Nyack, where a police officer and a Brink's guard were murdered. That robbery was a joint action by the Black Liberation Army and the Weather Underground. WU members David Gilbert and Kathy Boudin were convicted. Guess who raised their child? None other than Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn.

The other important revelation about the Brink's case was that it allowed the FBI to track back into the WU/BLA networks. In several safe houses they found large caches of armaments and detailed plans of police precincts and federal office buildings. This was not just a little leftie group of dissenters, it was a network of politically and criminally motivated individuals who wanted to destroy the US government. Arrests continued into the mid 1980s.

Another connection: two of the women arrested in this haul were pardoned by Bill Clinton in 2000.

Foo Bar

So is everybody here comfortable with McCain running an ad saying Obama promises more taxes on "your family" when in fact he only promises more taxes on families with income > $250K?

Ranger

Here's a mention of the panel in the http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/901879,CST-NWS-sweet18.stng>Sun-Times:

In 2002, Obama and Ayers were scheduled to be on a UIC panel with this lampoon-able title: "Intellectuals in Times of Crisis."

I wonder if there is a video of that panel anywhere?

kim

Ranger, in 2002? Pretty likely. In 2008? Pretty likely down the memory hole. Still, there was audience.
===============================

Ranger

So is everybody here comfortable with McCain running an ad saying Obama promises more taxes on "your family" when in fact he only promises more taxes on families with income > $250K?

Posted by: Foo Bar | August 15, 2008 at 01:42 PM

Shorter Foo Bar:

"Nothing to see here... Look! Look! Over there!!!"

or

"But... but... but... McCain does it toooooo!"

By the way, isn't Obama promissing to allow all of the Bush tax cuts to expire? That will definately raise taxes on everyone paying taxes.

DebinNC

In case anyone wants Obama's complete answer to the debate question about his relationship with Ayers:

George S.: "An early organizing meeting for your state senate campaign was held at his [Ayers] house, and your campaign has said you are friendly. Can you explain that relationship for the voters, and explain to Democrats why it won't be a problem?"

SEN. OBAMA: "George, but this is an example of what I'm talking about. This is a guy who lives in my neighborhood, who's a professor of English in Chicago, who I know and who I have not received some official endorsement from. He's not somebody who I exchange ideas from on a regular basis.

And the notion that somehow as a consequence of me knowing somebody who engaged in detestable acts 40 years ago when I was 8 years old, somehow reflects on me and my values, doesn't make much sense, George.

The fact is, is that I'm also friendly with Tom Coburn, one of the most conservative Republicans in the United States Senate, who during his campaign once said that it might be appropriate to apply the death penalty to those who carried out abortions. Do I need to apologize for Mr. Coburn's statements? Because I certainly don't agree with those either.

So this kind of game, in which anybody who I know, regardless of how flimsy the relationship is, is somehow -- somehow their ideas could be attributed to me -- I think the American people are smarter than that. They're not going to suggest somehow that that is reflective of my views, because it obviously isn't."

Did he answer the "explain that relationship" question? Nope imo. He would've if he could've.

kim

It's simple folks, this mad bomber has been perverting public education for decades, and Obama barely remembers him. What Obama seems to able to forget more than anything else is the screams from under the bus. Why, anyway, is anyone loyal to him?
====================================

Pagar

If you want to know how that not raising taxes except on the rich deal works. I suggest a good case study would be Castro and Cuba.

jimmyk

So is everybody here comfortable with McCain running an ad saying Obama promises more taxes on "your family" when in fact he only promises more taxes on families with income > $250K?

I am. If you compare McCain's proposals and Obama's, the difference is not merely for families with income over $250K. Isn't that the relevant comparison? Or are you comparing with Sweden?

Sue

So is everybody here comfortable with McCain running an ad saying Obama promises more taxes on "your family" when in fact he only promises more taxes on families with income > $250K?

Yes.

RichatUF

Foo Bar-

If the Annenberg stuff ended several years ago, then that's hardly evidence that Obama currently exchanges ideas with Ayers regularly.

And what topic would Obama be "exchanging ideas" with Ayers if not education reform? The best mix for pipe bombs or maybe placement so as to "not injure anyone"...

On an issue that Obama has a campaign plank for (and had at one point wanted to kill off NASA funding for)-education-the only part of his resume which includes it is "Education for Revolution" Ayers and the disappearing honey pot of Annenberg cash. But since it was a number of years ago its all ok...

Sue

Obama only chaired the board through 2000, i.e., 8 years ago.

Won't it be great when Obama can say that about Wright too?

MayBee

You know, FooBar, I don't like ads that misrepresent the other guy's position. I've seen plenty of that from both sides.

I do think, if Obama wants to complain about this ad, he needs to do a better job of explaining how his tax plan is actually going to work. Is he still planning on letting the taxes go up after the current rates expire?
Despite his "promise"- can he really accomplish what he proposes by only taxing families making > $250,000? Because he's going to have to get a lot more out of those people, I think, to give everyone else down the line all the cash back he's talking about.
Not to mention his no-tax on Seniors making $50,000 and under.

Now, let's talk about the meaning of "is" some more. It fits with Axelrod's story about Ayers and Obama:

"Bill Ayers lives in his neighborhood. Their kids attend the same school," he said. "They're certainly friendly, they know each other, as anyone whose kids go to school together."

tenses are so hard! Of course Axelrod meant Ayers kids used to go to the same school that Obama's kids now go to. But he is trying for full disclosure.

Foo Bar

By the way, isn't Obama promissing to allow all of the Bush tax cuts to expire?

This is false. He <http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/wire/ats-ap-obama-untaxing-seniorsaug12,1,5636468.story>proposes extending them except for those making more than $250K:

The proposed new tax break for seniors is one of about a dozen tax changes proposed by Obama, including raising rates on people making more than $250,000 a year; extending most of the rest of President Bush's tax cuts; subsidizing Social Security and payroll taxes for low-income workers; and boosting income and child care tax credits for low-income workers.
PeterUK

"Obama doesn't want to play TM's hacktacular games. Anyone with half a brain wouldn't want to play them,"

So why are you playing them jork?

Foo Bar

Of course Axelrod meant Ayers kids used to go to the same school that Obama's kids now go to

Does this mean he's someone Obama exchanges ideas with on a regular basis?

Foo Bar

I forgot the link for my cite a few comments up explaining that Obama proposes extending most of the rest of Bush's tax cuts for those making < $250K.

Captain Hate

extending most of the rest of President Bush's tax cuts

Most < All

Epic Fail

Go Away

PeterUK

"Why, do you think, the FBI never prosecuted these people? Could it be, just maybe, that there was too much evidence of agents provocateurs who were doing most of the bombings that the WU were accused of?"

Oh look a truther MkI.

PeterUK

"Did Ayers plant bombs? Yes. Were these bombs intended to hurt people, and did they in fact hurt people? No. Is he a political extremist? Of course."

Yes political change through peaceful fraternal bombing.I thought you people didn't like bombing?

"As for Obama's father and stepfather, please. His father was an anticolonial academic,"

Obama says he was a goat herder.

sbw

Foo: So is everybody here comfortable with McCain running an ad

Foo, if Obama had a plan to put people to work, I'd embrace it, but all he's got is an income redistribution plan to buy votes at the expense of a sound economic engine that has raised more out of poverty than any centrally-planned government ever.

Now, if you want to focus on the trees and miss the forest, you may vote this country into hardship; It would be foolish, but that is your prerogative.

But, please, focus on what matters and focus on what has worked in practice.

Ranger

I forgot the link for my cite a few comments up explaining that Obama proposes extending most of the rest of Bush's tax cuts for those making < $250K.

Posted by: Foo Bar | August 15, 2008 at 02:16 PM

Fair enough, but I don't really trust the LA Times when it comes to new analysis. BTW, you probably want to take this to the new thread TM just started on exactly this issue.

PeterUK

"Maybe I am just a fool, but that fact that someone does not kill anyone is pretty good evidence that he did not intend to kill anyone."

Very much the same way that if a bank robber comes away empty handed it is "pretty good evidence that he did not intend to rob anyone."

The fact that Ayers was in incompetent attempted mass murderer does not exonerate him for the attempt.

kim

Did Eckenrode help wiretap Ayre's forty years ago?
================================

MayBee

Of course Axelrod meant Ayers kids used to go to the same school that Obama's kids now go to

Does this mean he's someone Obama exchanges ideas with on a regular basis?

It means, Foo, that Obama's people have been obfuscating about his relationship with Ayers.

Foo Bar

I didn't phrase this right. The LAT says Obama proposes extending most of the rest of Bush's tax cuts but does not suggest that any of the tax cuts that Obama wants to let expire apply to those making < $250K. That suggestion was improperly implied by my own phrasing here:


I forgot the link for my cite a few comments up explaining that Obama proposes extending most of the rest of Bush's tax cuts for those making < $250K.

Here. Is this clear enough?


The plan does not raise capital gains taxes, income taxes, Social Security taxes or any other taxes on any family making less than $250,000.

Nor

mccain has a white supremacist 9/11 truther spouting lies for him. I eagerly await tm a analysis of what McCain knew about corsi and when he knew it. Oh wait he is a hack!

bgates

Foo, if Obama had a plan to put people to work, I'd embrace it
Oh, Barack Obama will make you work, all right.

sbw

Nor, I just wrote an editorial that compares the cyber-attack on Georgia that originated in Russia with the blog attack that followed the Corsi book. The cyber-attack tells us more about the politics of this campaign and stands independent of whether or not Corsi has stopped beating his wife. We all know that he may never have started.

The politics of the left makes me never care to have one of their ilk in power. ... The same way I never want to have a Nixon plumber around. Your ends and your means are uncivil.


DebinNC

OT, but funny. Dem atheists want a speaker slot at DNC interfaith service.

MayBee

Foo Bar- do you agree that Obama and his staff have been less than forthcoming about Obama's relationship (past and present) with Ayers?

ben

OBAMma "promises more taxes" on "your family", when in fact he does not propose raising any form of taxes on families making less than $250K or individuals making less than $200K."

Foo Bar, wanna buy some nice almost dry swampland in Florida? This statement is of course a bald faced lie. Obama wants to double the capital gains tax. That will raise taxes on over 100 million Americans of all incomes who own property or have investments. He also is in favor of the death tax which hurts farmers and small business owners. He wants "windfall" taxes on oil which in the end gets passed on to consumers. Higher income taxes on those making over 200k such as sole proprietors and professionals gets passed on to consumers also. And if you believe he will actually cut taxes for the middle class you are really naive. Democrats would rather cut their own throats than cut taxes, because they think any dollar you keep is one less dollar they can spend on getting one more person to vote for them.

sbw

Corporate taxes are most harmful for growth:

In a blockbuster new study titled "Tax and Economic Growth," economists at the OECD studied the effects of various types of taxes on the economic growth of developed nations and found that "corporate taxes are found to be most harmful for growth, followed by personal income taxes, and then consumption taxes.

... but don't confuse me with the evidence...

Foo Bar

Obama wants to double the capital gains tax.

Only on those making more than $250K, as my earlier link demonstrates.

That will raise taxes on over 100 million Americans of all incomes who own property or have investments

No, it won't, because most people don't make more than $250K.

sbw

Foo, help me here... when did my money become your money?

Foo Bar

Foo, help me here... when did my money become your money?

When did your kids' money that Republican administrations have borrowed by generally running up larger deficits than Democratic administrations for the past 30 years become your money?

ben

Let's educate Foo Bar on some other ways Obama will cost you money. Obama is supported by the AFL-CIO and other unions, a support that is not free, it comes with a host of anti-business measures that will cost consumers billions. Obama is supported by trial lawyers, who are rabidly against tort reform, so insurance rates will continue to rise. Socialized medicine will cost taxpayers more billions. I am sure there are many more examples. And the $200k figure is a red herring, many people with incomes under $200k nevertheless have homes and investments worth much more than that.

MayBee

Foo Bar- do you agree that Obama's people have been less than forthcoming about his relationship with Ayers?

Foo Bar

Foo Bar- do you agree that Obama and his staff have been less than forthcoming about Obama's relationship (past and present) with Ayers?

I suppose it would have been slightly more forthcoming if they had freely offered up the Annenberg challenge connection, but it just doesn't seem like that big a deal. Again, Obama and/or his staff was not asked to fill out a form detailing every interaction with Ayers.

The Obama website cites a Sun-Times piece that describes Obama and Ayers as 2 community activists whose circles overlap, and the Annenberg Challenge information doesn't really change that picture all that much.

TM accuses Obama of covering up the nature of his relationship with Ayers. Where is the evidence of proactive "coverup" measures?

MayBee

What do you think of Axelrod's original statement, though, Foo? Just two guys whose kids go to school together.

PeterUK

"Count on it if Bush bombs Latvia ('cause
that's where the Russkies train) instead of
'where they actually are', you know, in Georgia."

>a href="http://europa.eu/abc/european_countries/eu_members/latvia/index_en.htm"> Latvia is a member of the EU
Please Septic go for the brain scrape now!

PeterUK

Obama is a politician,one of the principle working practice of politician is networking.Ayers is a left wing celebrity from a very wealthy family.Obama and Ayers live near each other.
There isn't a snowball in hell's chance that Obama would not be all over Ayers and vice versa.

Tom Maguire
When will Obama tell the truth, and why has he been lying?

Please. You're acting like Obama was asked to fill out a disclosure form in which he was obligated to list each and every time he and Ayers have crossed paths.

Obama was essentially unknown to the nation four years ago and now he is the probable next President. One might hope that the public would like to know more about this guy and get straight answers when they try to find out.

As to McCain's "lies", the biggest problem with that parallelism (other than my spelling) is that McCain has been around since the glaciers receded and, rightly or wrongly, people feel as if he is a known quantity.

From a different perspective - Obama's defenders are sure that the Ayers relationship is no big deal, yet they don't know much of anything about the extent of it; about all they know for sure is that Obama has been covering it up.

Why doesn't that bother them? Being lied to is OK?

Foo Bar

As to McCain's "lies", the biggest problem with that parallelism (other than my spelling) is that McCain has been around since the glaciers receded and, rightly or wrongly, people feel as if he is a known quantity.

There's more of a parallel than you realize, if you think it through. If McCain's ad was fudging a description of McCain himself, then it might make more sense to respond that McCain is essentially a known quantity already, so a little fudging isn't going to make a difference to the public's perception of him.

Note, however, that McCain telling viewers that Obama promises "more taxes" on "your family" is an attempt to describe Obama. As you point out, however, Obama is less well-known, which makes it all the more insidious (and effective, unfortunately) to suggest to viewers that Obama proposes to raise taxes on most everyone when in fact he only proposes to raise taxes on a small fraction of the population.

about all they know for sure is that Obama has been covering it up.

Why doesn't that bother them? Being lied to is OK?

What has he done to cover it up, and what is the actual lie here? Anyway, I'm not sure it would be particularly damaging if the Annenberg challenge history were plastered across the front pages of all the major dailies. The Obama folks already concede some degree of social connection (e.g. Axelrod says "they're certainly friendly"). That's probably more damaging than the Annenberg Challenge info. If Ayers is morally repugnant, then maybe he's someone one ought not be friendly with. However, if it's a cold hard fact that he's a figure of influence in the Chicago education reform movement, then if you want to try to work on education reform in Chicago it may be difficult to avoid interacting with him to some degree.

Sara

Foobar:

One problem with the Obama taxes is that noone in their right mind believes that a democrat president pushing huge give-away programs coupled with a democrat Congress will not raise taxes no matter what he says as a candidate. In my mind, it is a given.

Ranger

However, if it's a cold hard fact that he's a figure of influence in the Chicago education reform movement, then if you want to try to work on education reform in Chicago it may be difficult to avoid interacting with him to some degree.


Posted by: Foo Bar | August 15, 2008 at 06:18 PM

Well, if that's the case, why didn't Obama just say exactly that? 'This is a man whose past actions I strongly disagree with, but he is a man you have to work with if you want to make education better in Chicago.' would have done that. But that's not what he chose to say.

Why did Obama seek to avoid describing the nature of the relationship, which was the exact question he was asked?

He didn't address the fact that he launched his political carrer in a meeting hosted at Ayers' house. He didn't address the fact that they served together for a long time on charitable bordes that had to discuss various grant proposals and why one deserved funding over another. He didn't address the fact that he agreed to be on a panel about "the role of the intilectual in a time of crisis" (which seems kind of out of the perview of education reform). He simply dodged all of that by claiming the question was a distraction.

The lie is "He's not somebody who I exchange ideas from on a regular basis." Which, at the time of the debate might be true, depending on what "the meaning of exchange is." Is Obama really that Clintonian that we have to parse every word to discover that he didn't lie because he mislead us with his words so well.

Charles Martin

Putin's Labyrinth trembles.

Okay, Leo honey, how about you explain to me what you think a really strong president would do?

Bomb the Russian tank columns?

The Russian oil pipelines supplying Europe?

Insert a couple of brigades and an MEF to protect Tblisi?

I'm sorry, normally I just figure you're kind of a dope, but this is really idiotic. What do you think Obama would do? Offer up a resolution of censure in Congress? Make a resolution in the Security Council so Putin will be "embarrassed" when he has to veto it?

Come on now, stand and deliver.

sbw

What to do? Cicero of London (via Brits at their Best) suggests:

Do Russian spies not function with impunity? Expel them.
Is investment going to Russia? Stop it.
Is technology going to Russia? Ban it.
Do Russians enjoy shopping in the West- no visas.
Russian cyber attacks? Close the Russian Internet access to the outside world, as it is reopened, close it again, and again- replicate the cyber attacks they launched against Georgia (oh, and NATO, last year).
Does Russia like i-phones? No export of any technology.
Does Russia wish to join WTO? Stop it
Are they members of the "G-8"? No, you mean G-7.
Abrogate all military treaties including START.
EBRD and EIB investments in Russia? Suspend them.
No most favoured nation status- extra tariffs on Russian exports.
Russia craves respectability? Deny it- it is a thuggish third rate power- it will be hurt by a concerted boycott- so hurt it!

bgates

If Ayers is morally repugnant
If?
it just doesn't seem like that big a deal
That's a good standard for disclosure. Any complaints if the current chief executive adopt it for the remainder of his term? Any concerns over McCain adopting it?

It certainly got John Edwards through for a while.

bgates

Does this mean he's someone Obama exchanges ideas with on a regular basis?
The phrases you're clinging to so religiously are from Obama's answer to the question, "Can you explain that relationship for the voters?"
Nixon could have used that line for his relationship with Gordon Liddy. It's non-responsive. Could Chris Dodd explain his relationship with the CEO of Countrywide? "Oh, he's not someone I exchange ideas with on a regular basis." C'mon. Pre-Katrina, Bush could have described his relationship with Brown in the same terms. And you would have howled.

cathyf

Obama says that he wants a big new tax on gasoline, heating oil, diesel fuel, plastics made from petrochemicals, etc. So if McCain is "lying" when he says that Obama has promised to raise taxes on my family, then that must mean that Obama is promising that when he is elected that families making less than $250K/yr won't be able to afford to buy gasoline, heating oil, diesel fuel, plastics, etc.

kim

Foo Bar defends Obama because they lie the same way. Ayres? Who he? Taxes? Not for you, for the other guy, the bad one. It's bullshit FooBar, and you and everyone else recognizes it.
=============================================

ajacksonian

One of the problems with those around Obama is not '6 degrees of separation' but direct and often prolonged and deep contact with them.

Starting with Ayers in the mid-1980's, Pfleger, Wright, Rezko by 1990, a plethora of Rezko cronies who donated to Obama's various campaigns including Davis, then going on to Auchi, Alsammarae and Iraq, Rashid Khalidi and Ali Abunimah's ties to the PLO, Sen. Obama's raft of pork going back home often to backers who get prominent campaign spots or are 'bundlers'.

6 degrees? He should be so lucky as all of those are direct, personal contacts.

I have strong problems with Sen. McCain and his ties to Keating and, somehow, 'accidentally' meeting with Oleg Deripaska. And very convenient that Mr. Deripaska just happens to have ties with a bank co-founded by Auchi and run by the majority owned group of the Desmarais family - BNP-Paribas, which tends to show up whenever Deripaska needs some backing. I tend to place that latter a lot higher than anyone on the Left or Right will, but then I worry a bit more between the interconnects of terrorism and organized crime on a global scale.

If Sen. Obama can't seem to figure out that these people are not ones to be involved with and he does that consistently through the years, then his great reasons for running are down the tubes: judgement and character. He hasn't any of either, though he *is* a character, but that isn't the same as having character.

Do I have problems with Sen. McCain? You betchya.

If he is circling a black hole, then Sen. Obama has gone beyond the blue event horizon in the exact, same areas I have problems with Sen. McCain.

And those '6 degrees' matter a whole lot more when it is direct contact: then it is personal to the individual.

davod

Ayers only an education professor? Hearts and minds at the youngest age.

Bill Ayers In Chavez's Venezuela (Nov. 2006)

"President Hugo Chavez, Vice-President Vicente Rangel, Ministers Moncada and Isturiz, invited guests, comrades. I’m honored and humbled to be here with you this morning. I bring greetings and support from your brothers and sisters throughout North America. Welcome to the World Education Forum! Amamos la revolucion Bolivariana!

This is my fourth visit to Venezuela, each time at the invitation of my comrade and friend Luis Bonilla, a brilliant educator and inspiring fighter for justice. Luis has taught me a great deal about the Bolivarian Revolution and about the profound educational reforms underway here in Venezuela under the leadership of President Chavez. We share the belief that education is the motor-force of revolution, and I’ve come to appreciate Luis as a major asset in both the Venezuelan and the international struggle—I look forward to seeing how he and all of you continue to overcome the failings of capitalist education as you seek to create something truly new and deeply humane. Thank you, Luis, for everything you’ve done."


M. Simon

Foo,

Every one who is awake know that only raising taxes on the rich very often reaches into their pocket books. If not directly then indirectly from the resulatant economic slow down. Some people remember what the 10% luxury tax did for American workers especially American boat builders.

It never just touches the rich.

dvod

"Some people remember what the 10% luxury tax did for American workers especially American boat builders."

The tax destroyed the luxury boat industry and hundreds directly involved lost their jobs. The total numer of job losses was in the thousands.

I believe it almost destroyed the small/medium aircraft market as well.

You must remember though, according to Obama, it is not the effect on a market or jobs that is important, it is the principal that the rich pay their share (Whatever this is).

kim

Isn't it Biblical that half do the work of all?
=========================

M. Simon

Charles Martin,

We have flights delivering "humanitarian" aid to Georgia. The hospital ship "Comfort" arrives there in three weeks.

I'd say that after that the counter attack will be on.

Russian tanks are now digging in. That tends to indicate a lack of POL.

M. Simon

Foo says:

This is false. He proposes extending them except for those making more than $250K

So if a woman works all her life and accumulates $1 million in a small business she will be exempt when she cashes out?

I'm a believer.

Obama? Keep the change.

M. Simon

Did Ayers plant bombs? Yes. Were these bombs intended to hurt people, and did they in fact hurt people? No. Is he a political extremist? Of course.

But how does that attach to Obama?

It works like this:

The evil Republicans make the attachment in people's minds and then The One™ goes down in flames and takes a bunch of his D buddies with him.

Looks like a plan to me.

sophy

I do not know how to use the twelvesky Gold ; my friend tells me how to use.

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