Excitable Andy has decided to Swift Boat John McCain ["Swift Boat" as meant by the left; see UPDATE]:
I've now heard it countless times. McCain has used what appears to be an intensely personal moment in a prison camp as a reason to vote for him in a campaign ad. As he tells it today, it was the pivotal moment in his struggle to survive in the Hanoi Hilton. And yet, in his first thorough account of his time in captivity, in 1973, the story is absent. The story is also hauntingly like that recounted by Solzhenitsen, as told in Luke Veronis, "The Sign of the Cross":
...
I have one simple question: when was the first time that McCain told this story?
Uh huh. Because the sign of the cross is a pretty well-kept secret, so how could prison guards invoke it twice in one century? FWIW, the story appears in McCain's 1999 "Faith Of My Fathers", although I have no idea whether McCain told it earlier. Lexis mavens?
The Kossacks are on this search for the truth, so we know it will be kept classy. And speaking of classy, let's crack open the Time Vault and go all the way back to June 30 for a different perspective from a then Non-Excitable Andy:
This kind of personal attack was repulsive coming against Kerry from the far right. And it's repulsive the other way round. Both Kerry and McCain served their country honorably; and their records should be revered, period. You can make an argument against McCain's foreign policy experience and judgment on its merits. Do it and leave this crap out of it.
Well, that was almost two months ago. Evidently the bell has rung and now its time to bring the crap.
And since we are bringing crap, let me help. Andy links to McCain's first person account of his captivity as told to US News and World Report in May 1973. McCain came home on March 15, 1973, so he had already had two months to recover from the physical and mental trauma of his captivity, gather his thoughts, and present every important detail.
Let's see - McCain mentions the prisoner tap with this introduction:
While I was in the prison we called "The Plantation" in October, 1968, there was a room behind me. I heard some noise in there so I started tapping on the wall. Our call-up sign was the old "shave and a haircut," and then the other guy would come back with the two taps, "six bits."
Well, that is a bald faced lie - everyone knows it is "Shave and a haircut - two bits." What, was there a high incidence of inflation in Vietnam? Or had McCain even been in Vietnam? [Hmm, pushback in the comments here and from 2004].
And I have picked up another clear fabrication. In the context of the interrogation debate McCain has frequently told the story of his own presentation of false information under torture; his tale is that he gave up the names of the Green Bay Packer offensive line rather than his fellow aviators. Or maybe the Pittsburgh Steelers. But no such story appears in his 1973 account, back when he was still groggy from captivity. That pretty much proves the Packer/Steeler story is false, too. Right?
And people take McCain's Presidential qualifications seriously.
The context of Excitable's original question (and certainly the Kos conjecture) seems to be the suspicion that McCain has invented this story as a bone to throw to the religious right. Well, McCain is a crafty planner, because here is what he wrote in 1973:
I was finding that prayer helped. It wasn't a question of asking for superhuman strength or for God to strike the North Vietnamese dead. It was asking for moral and physical courage, for guidance and wisdom to do the right thing. I asked for comfort when I was in pain, and sometimes I received relief. I was sustained in many times of trial.
I bet he meant it, but maybe he is lying and never really prayed while in captivity. Or he prayed but never found any comfort in it. Any takers? Excitable?
If I may dare to play armchair psychologist - one point of the "cross in dirt" story is McCain's recognition of and reconciliation to the humanity of his often brutal captors. My guess is that in May of 1973 he had not fully worked through his issues with the North Vietnamese.
UPDATE: Good point by Sue in the comments and highlighted by Glenn - "Swift Boating" means different things to the right and left. As a proud Swiftboater myself (in the political, 2004 sense) I should be more vigilant about maintaining that distinction.
PROPS: Jane scores:
I say Andy and the kos kids should go for it. I love the smell of backlash in the morning.
Smells like hilarity.
INSPIRED, NO DOUBT, BY SOLZHENITSEN: Bill Clinton hits the beach at Omaha:
At the end of the day in Normandy, Bill Clinton walked down to the beach with three veterans of Omaha Beach -- Joe Dawson, Walter Ehlers and Robert Slaughter. The tableau was appealing: the young President enjoying the company of the aging heroes. But suddenly the President's aides began tugging the veterans away, mid-conversation, so that Clinton could walk off at sunset down the beach in his dress shoes and have a preplanned meditative moment, with the bluffs on one side and the sea dotted with warships on the other.
Originally, the White House told photographers they were considering a "Where Have All the Flowers Gone?" moment, where Clinton and children would throw flowers into the sea.
But they settled on "a moment of solitude." The President knew he was supposed to look reflective for the three cameras and dozen photographers who joined him. But after looking soulfully out at the ocean for a moment, he seemed at a loss for what to do next, according to a photographer on the scene, who was scared that Clinton was about to mouth the words "What do I do now?" But then, spying the stones at his feet left by his advance staff to show him where his camera mark was, the President crouched down and began to arrange the stones into a cross. He gathered more stones to finish the cross, and then bent his head as though in silent prayer.
The White House aides were ecstatic. "Wasn't it great?" they asked reporters.
Hmm, maybe McCain was ripping off Clinton...
Dan Riehl has more. Turns out the sign of the cross is somewhat well known.
STICKING TOGETHER: Orson Swindle, a fellow POW who has been with the McCain campaign, vouches for McCain to Byron York, but I don't know - this old Swindle story makes me suspicious:
That's when he learned to lie, figuring he could give them just enough truth to make his lies believable. When the interrogators wanted Swindle to name the men in his squadron, he told them he couldn't think in such pain. They'd have to loosen the ropes to get anything out of him. When they started to loosen his bindings, he gave them the names of his high-school football coach and assistant coach, saying that was is squadron commander and executive officer.
When they loosened the ropes some more, he gave them the names of his entire high-school football team as his squadron's pilots. Swindle chuckled as he recalled a welcome-home gala several years later in his small south-Georgia hometown. "All those guys were in the audience," he said. "And I said, 'You better not ever go to North Vietnam, because they're looking for you.'"
Cmon, weren't any of these naval aviators baseball players or fans? That's a mighty big coincidence that McCain and Swindle both picked football teams to baffle their captors.
ANOTHER CROSS STORY: The Confederate Yankee recounts the cross story told by Sen. Denton.
Thanks for unmasking that fraud. His changing stories of his Vietnam experiance always seemed to point to a complete fabrication. Where was he during this period? I'm guessing the USSR.
Posted by: Pigilito | August 17, 2008 at 09:33 PM
"experiance" should have been "experience".
Posted by: Pigilito | August 17, 2008 at 09:34 PM
What, was there a high incidence of inflation in Vietnam? Or had McCain even been in Vietnam?
Heh. It's hilarious to see the double standard applied to this sort of thing. Pretending idiocy like the "magic hat" or "Gen-jis Khan" is reasonable, but a relatively common expression of faith from a POW is not. Not sure what planet Sully's got to, but he might consider staying there.
Posted by: Cecil Turner | August 17, 2008 at 09:41 PM
Perhaps this really was a simple Pinocchio moment? In a previous account captured in a transcript here by CNN, it was a sandal that drew the cross, not a stick.
Last night it was also a sandal. (Actually a "HANDLE" in the error-ridden rickwarrennews transcript, but I recall McCain saying sandal.)
December 20, 2007, the visual was a stick in this McCain youtube video. (The narration just said "drew a cross in the sand".)
This being an incident one is not likely to forget, at least one account or the other was fictional.
Posted by: Bill Arnold | August 17, 2008 at 09:54 PM
Bill Arnold: boy, you had me going there for a minute. I thought you were serious with that "sandal and stick" schtick. Oh, you were...?
Posted by: Buford Gooch | August 17, 2008 at 10:04 PM
There must be some kinda way outa here,
Said the joker to the thief...
Posted by: anduril | August 17, 2008 at 10:09 PM
Too much confusion,
I can't get no relief.
Posted by: Buford Gooch | August 17, 2008 at 10:11 PM
Has Andrew really lost his mind, I ask this seriously. I mean there are accounts by the other prisoners, Day, Galante, Swindle right. The level of denial, exhibited after the Saddleback debacle (boy that was like the '88 Tyson fight, except Obama wasbeating
the hell out of himself) I thought
Oakeshott, the conservative academic who was his mentor would clearly not recognize
him from his time in the early 80s.Cognitive
dissonance doesn't properly explain it, craven surrender might very well however.
Posted by: narciso | August 17, 2008 at 10:12 PM
This being an incident one is not likely to forget, at least one account or the other was fictional.
Since the story is written down in "Faith of My Fathers" as sandal *and* its a lot more surreptitious, I'll bet that is what the guard did.
However - a sandal is also a lot less visually interesting to film, at least in a quick ad (What do you show, some guy shuffling their feet?). Creative license.
Wow.
Posted by: Tom Maguire | August 17, 2008 at 10:13 PM
Damn that McSame. Damn him all to hell.
I'll bet he bayonetted himself in the groin just so he could lord it over The One.
Just proves he'll do anything to get elected.
Posted by: Soylent Red | August 17, 2008 at 10:15 PM
bayonet in the groin? isn't that what jesse wanted to do?
Posted by: anduril | August 17, 2008 at 10:19 PM
Out West it was always six bits. Shave and haircut. Expensive.
If that ringing toff Sully is this desperate, things are not going well for the One. And, I was fascinated that the One validated Jesse Jackson by talking down Thomas, J. It takes a certain panache to exhibit that sort of “it-ain’t-post-yet” racial animus. Well, I’ll just go out and wait to be healed by his preening balm.
Posted by: MarkO | August 17, 2008 at 10:21 PM
Has Andrew really lost his mind, I ask this seriously.
I wouldn't know because I haven't read him in years; ignoring all links that are provided by demonstrably more sane individuals. Sorry but I waste enough time on the innerwebbz without sampling his lunacy. In fact that might be the test to make sure I haven't lost my mind.
Posted by: Captain Hate | August 17, 2008 at 10:23 PM
Creative license. Actually, I agree, the video visual is almost certainly fictional. Sheesh, from the crowd that complains about stuff like "Christmas in Cambodia" :-) (Never did figure out whether that was Orthodox (Julian) for the Russian "advisors", or Gregorian?)
Posted by: Bill Arnold | August 17, 2008 at 10:30 PM
In order to Swift Boat John McCain you will need his fellow POWs to come out and say he is bloviating, etc. Swift Boating means someone who was there who knows you are full of hot air is on your tail. Not, I repeat not, what the left wants it to mean. The only way John McCain can be Swift Boated is if someone who was there with him causes McCain's campaign to scramble to answer the allegations. Otherwise, this is desparation by the left who sees their guaranteed win slipping away.
Posted by: Sue | August 17, 2008 at 10:34 PM
I say Andy and the kos kids should go for it. I love the smell of backlash in the morning.
Posted by: Jane | August 17, 2008 at 10:44 PM
Meanwhile there is yet another craven cry for attention; by Valerie Plame on "60 minutes" and of course, one of the survivors
of Gitmo gets an op ed, this time in the Washington Post; complaining how really wanted to kill himself, because he was innocent, gulag, et al. He tried 12 times, his attorney Colangelo Bryan admitted to Harpers, the New York Times, et al. The fact that he trained at the Al Siddeek camp in Khowst, had ties to the Lackawanna Six, is just being mean; part of the evil that
Barry "Sunshine" Dunham says we do.
Posted by: narciso | August 17, 2008 at 10:47 PM
"...from the crowd that complains about stuff like 'Christmas in Cambodia' :-) (Never did figure out whether that was Orthodox (Julian) for the Russian 'advisors', or Gregorian?)"
Take your pick: any calendar you want, or Tet instead of Christmas. What matters is that the lying coward was never in Cambodia at any time--ever.
Try another one, asshole. And sear this in your memory.
Posted by: Danube of Thought | August 17, 2008 at 10:48 PM
You've got to love it when the left uses the excuses they made up for Kerry's failure as a template for bringing down McCain.
Posted by: JM Hanes | August 17, 2008 at 10:49 PM
He wasn't there on Christmas; he wasn't there at Michaelmas. He wasn't there at Tet. He wasn't there on Crispin's Day. He wasn't there at Candlemas. He wasn't there at Passover. He wasn't there at Easter. He wasn't there at the Feast of the Epiphany. He wasn't there on Palm Sunday, nor was he there on Good Friday.
He was never there. He made up a story about being there to glorify himself, and the story was a lie. He repeated the lie over and over again, along with many other lies about himself.
And some low turd wants to quibble about which calendar it was?
Bring it on...
Posted by: Danube of Thought | August 17, 2008 at 11:05 PM
These guys don't quite get the rules of Copperheads and Patriots, do they? Kerry really earned his Benedict Arnold ribbon (with Poison Oak Cluster) with his lies to Congress. Transcripts are actually available.
I'll second Jane - keep it up fellas. It ain't gonna help the Chicago slumlords bagboy even a tiny bit. It just points up the emptiness of that suit in front of the teleprompter.
And it will remind people of how Obama wanted to cut and run to defeat when all that was required for victory was a backbone.
He really is just like Kerry.
Posted by: Rick Ballard | August 17, 2008 at 11:15 PM
But, but, but ... Andrea Mitchel says Mac is a cheater.
Posted by: Sara | August 17, 2008 at 11:18 PM
I stunned. The Koz left (and Excitable Andy) really can't be this stupid.
Posted by: RichatUF | August 17, 2008 at 11:27 PM
Sara:
The other strange bit in Mitchell's remarks that nobody's commented on was this: "And, you know, there was the crisp, immediate, forceful response by John McCain, clearly in a comfort zone because he was with his base." Since when did the religious right constitute anything resembling McCain's base?
Posted by: JM Hanes | August 17, 2008 at 11:34 PM
he was with his base.
Andrea Mitchell happy hour strikes again!!
Posted by: bad | August 17, 2008 at 11:45 PM
Or she thought she was the sports commentator.
Posted by: bad | August 17, 2008 at 11:46 PM
To the MSM and most Dems the "religious right" are every Republican's base. They continually get this stuff wrong because they think it's all one big indistinguishable monolithic mass.
Posted by: Porchlight | August 17, 2008 at 11:48 PM
JMH: I worked on the McCain 2000 primary campaign in San Diego for a short time. I was pretty fired up because I liked his "forceful" style and his take charge attitude. Some problems on the campaign and my Mother's stroke interrupted and then McCain lost to GWB. From the end of the primary thru the Florida recount my Mom was either in the hospital or in rehab and my life consisted of eating, sleeping and commuting to the hospital where I stayed about 10 hours a day.
Now 8 years later, until last night, I have been asking myself what was it about McCain that got me so fired up in 2000? I couldn't remember and nothing he was saying or doing now was causing any bells to ring. Last night I saw something familiar. I saw some of that 2000 McCain and started liking him again. If he keeps it up, my vote might actually end up being for him and not just against Obama.
Posted by: Sara | August 17, 2008 at 11:49 PM
I stunned. The Koz left (and Excitable Andy) really can't be this stupid.
Wanna bet?
I agree with some of the sentiments above and elsewhere in the comments: the Obama side must really be starting to sweat. We've got Andy trying to attack the "cross in the dirt" story, we've got Leo downthread trying to explain why she's suddenly in favor of bombing the shit out of some Russians, and we've got this "cheated" story being floated (unsuccessfully).
I love the smell of flop sweat. Smells like ... victory.
Posted by: Charlie (Colorado) | August 17, 2008 at 11:58 PM
Yeah Charlie, stinky can be really good sometimes.
Posted by: bad | August 18, 2008 at 12:00 AM
Bad,
I think the secondary meaning of "nuanced and thougtful" must be "gets his ass kicked like a soccer ball in a championship game".
The Koskidz acted like this when Ned Lamont was heading for his rendevous with destiny. It will get much worse.
Posted by: Rick Ballard | August 18, 2008 at 12:18 AM
Rick
It looked like a slam dunk last night. The level of idiocy today says I misunderestimated. Who knew?
Posted by: bad | August 18, 2008 at 12:26 AM
It has always been "six bits" in the upper
midwest. I went to the link which is wikipedia.
The two had been edited in. Take
a look and see if you don't think so also.
Posted by: Letty | August 18, 2008 at 12:28 AM
Charlie-
I went over to Koz and scanned some of the diaries-they're eating this story up. Just when you didn't think the nutroots could get any dumber-they don't disappoint.
A story from McCain's time as a POW and they're looking at campaign ads and Solzhenitsyn to poke holes in it. I suppose Solzhenitsyn's lesson is lost to them.
Posted by: RichatUF | August 18, 2008 at 12:29 AM
3 Million Shiites Mark Pilgrimage In Karbala
Posted by: Sara | August 18, 2008 at 12:30 AM
L keep waiting for them to point out that McCain is so old the sign was not the cross but the fish...
Posted by: bad | August 18, 2008 at 12:32 AM
"gets his ass kicked like a soccer ball in a championship game".
OR "gets his b**ls kicked like a soccer player in China"
Posted by: bad | August 18, 2008 at 12:35 AM
Don't call him "excitable Andy." Call him "bareback Andy." He advertised for "bareback" (i.e., without condom) sex even though he had AIDS.
Posted by: Ken | August 18, 2008 at 12:59 AM
More interesting is that McCain's most gut-wrenching decision was to honor the Code of Conduct, his fellow POWs, the US military and the United States of America rather than take the easy way out. Seriously, that should have been a no-brainer. Maybe this was a rare moment of candor that explains his inexplicable reluctance to talk about his POW experience.
Posted by: ParseThis | August 18, 2008 at 01:08 AM
A tortured answer to an easy question
Posted by: Sara | August 18, 2008 at 01:11 AM
Heh. This one makes you nervous, doesn't it, Tom? First the Wikipedia plagiarism. Then the Downs Syndrome suicide bomber urban legend -- in the same Forum, btw. And now the Solzhenitsen cross. We'll see what's true and what's not. But McCain is certainly arrogant enough to manufacture a little extra legend -- hey, if you're gonna use your own heroism as a campaign prop while simultaneously taking credit for modest in this regard, why not go the extra mile?
And 'Excitable Andy' is a nice touch. Brings out the homophobia in your commenters. Which must make you proud.
Posted by: Harley | August 18, 2008 at 01:11 AM
Then the Downs Syndrome suicide bomber urban legend
That is just an unbelievably ugly comment--Harley.
Posted by: glasater | August 18, 2008 at 01:26 AM
More interesting is that McCain's most gut-wrenching decision was to honor the Code of Conduct, his fellow POWs, the US military and the United States of America rather than take the easy way out. Seriously, that should have been a no-brainer.
You really are a complete moron, aren't you?
And, apparently, about 14. Does your mother know you're up this late?
I assure you, PretentiousTwit, that Code of Conduct or not, after years of torture, faced with the prospect of more years of torture and quite possibly death, that even John Henry the Stee; Drivin' Man, Roy Rogers, Gary Cooper and Chuck Norris would have been at least tempted to take the easy out.
Honestly, you should be ashamed that you can even bring yourself to repeat this.
Posted by: Charlie (Colorado) | August 18, 2008 at 01:32 AM
Not to mention that at that time, McCain had several broken bones and was sick with infection and near death.
Posted by: Sara | August 18, 2008 at 01:38 AM
What a lame story. Lots of things taken out of context in an attempt to prove something that does not exist.
Newsflash: McCain once said that there were clouds in the sky! So the sky must be made of clouds. Wait, it's not, so he's lying!
Kerry got whacked because his mates did so. Ask some of those that served with McCain if you want a swift boat. I'd bet that they will "fall in line" with him.
Posted by: Lame | August 18, 2008 at 01:47 AM
As one who has experienced having several broken bones at the same time, I can attest to the level of gut wrenching, drive you to suicide type pain that wracks the body. But unlike John McCain, who didn't get medical treatment or get his bones set properly nor have the benefit of antibiotics, I had the benefit of the top orthopedic surgeon in the country at Johns Hopkins, very attentive nurses and therapists, and lots and lots of morphine plus family and friends to visit every day to help me keep my spirits up.
It is one part of McCain's story that not just my head identifies with, but so does my body, and I'm sure I would not have had the fortitude to forgo an offer that I knew would get me to medical treatment. Pain, excruciating pain, is a powerful motivator to make stop whatever is causing the pain.
And there is plenty of documentation of McCain's condition, both eye-witness, photos, and a look at his xrays tells the tale.
Posted by: Sara | August 18, 2008 at 01:50 AM
What will be interesting to me is what McCain's fellow POW's have to say when they begin to chime in on his character and this incident.
The fundamental point to me about Kerry, beyond the obvious lies of Magic Hat, Christmas in Cambodia, etc, was that in a military unit of a couple hundred guys virtually everybody hated Kerry's guts. That's aberrant, and anybody who has spent any length of time in a military unit, especially during wartime, imediately recognizes how aberrant such a situation is. If so many of your squadron mates are able to stand up and say they loathe you or despise you, then the problem lies not in your squadron mates but in you. And I'm not talking Gregory Peck stuff like in Twelve O'Clock High, where his job was to make you hate him to toughen you up, I'm talking the guy in the next bunk being so loathed by his shipmates that he had to drag in some Army ranger guy to fluff up his resume. If thats the sort of negative opinion that emerges when McCain's cellmates start talking about him, then he'll drop like a rock in my estimation, and not because of some bullshit question whether some supposed prison guard scratched a cross in the sand with his stick or a sandal 40 years ago in Viet Nam.
And I personally can't wait until his fellow POWs do start commenting, because I can't think of any people in America who are more respected when they do speak than former US Prisoners of War who endured half a decade in a Hanoi prison. Man, I hope this opens a door that Obama supporters are gonna' rue the day they ever opened up.
Posted by: Daddy | August 18, 2008 at 01:52 AM
McCain
Accuses NBCNEWS of Obama bias...
They are not happy with Andrea. See their letter.
Posted by: Sara | August 18, 2008 at 02:02 AM
Daddy, his fellow POWs have been commenting for years and not negatively. Read some of Bud Day, or there are several others. McCain was a leader.
And lest we forget, Lt. McCain retired with 22 years service as Captain McCain and that kind of promotion requires Congressional approval. Anything and everything about those years of incarceration for all the POWs has been documented six ways from Sunday.
Posted by: Sara | August 18, 2008 at 02:05 AM
Is McCain's former POW status a "cone of silence"?
What else has this "cone of silence" kept hidden?Honestly, you should be ashamed that you can even bring yourself to repeat this.
Question answered.
Posted by: ParseThis | August 18, 2008 at 02:06 AM
Guys, there is another explanation for why he didn't tell all those years ago. Because then they might have figured out who the guard was... and SHOT HIM.
So if McCain waited 10 or 20 years to tell the story, there is your reason why.
Posted by: A.W. | August 18, 2008 at 02:08 AM
And Kerry didn't have just his boat mates to worry about, he smeared the entire Vietnam Veteran corps and we waited over 3 decades for a chance to speak.
Posted by: Sara | August 18, 2008 at 02:10 AM
Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 5:49:29 PM by freedomdefender
In Part Four of his new book, "Character is Destiny," McCain writes about his role as chaplain for Christmas service in his Vietnamese prison, and about a guard who snuck in at night to loosen the ropes that bound McCain, and then snuck in in the morning to tighten them before other guards could notice.
The guard said nothing while performing this kindness, but one time, in the yard, "I became aware of him as he walked near me and then, for a moment, stood very close to me. He did not speak or smile or look at me. He just stared at the ground and then, very casually, he used his foot to draw a cross in the dirt. We both stood looking at his work for a minute until he rubbed it out and walked away."
Posted by: Sara | August 18, 2008 at 02:15 AM
I saw this unfolding earlier today.
And only a few days after my not boyfriend Joe Klein declared that Democrats just do not do this kind of thing.
Posted by: MayBee | August 18, 2008 at 02:38 AM
I was listening to a version of "Turkey in the Straw" with my kids today and at the end they threw in the "haircut" line:
Shave and a haircut:six bits
Tip the barber:two bits
All together:one buck
So there. And gotta love the panic in the Kossies and the Obots, they are flailing about, hoping to connect but most likely going to bounce off the ropes
Posted by: James B. | August 18, 2008 at 02:44 AM
ParseThis:
So, how long did you hold out when you were tortured? If that's a no-brainer, perhaps you could share your vision of what would qualify as a bona fide gut-wrenching decision, because coming out against the invasion of Iraq strikes me as considerably less painful than wrenching an ankle stepping off a curb. The question that intrigues me most, however, is what sort of percentage you see in going after McCain for cowardice -- or this just a self-indulgent game of tit for tat?
Ken at 12:59AM:
I don't know who you are, but if you intend to post that kind of crap, I hope you'll find somewhere else to do it.
Posted by: JM Hanes | August 18, 2008 at 02:46 AM
Then the Downs Syndrome suicide bomber urban legend
This silliness is coming from Politico today. For some reason, they've taken McCain's statement about two female suicide bombers that were mentally disabled and 'disproven it'.
They disprove it by saying the women had schizophrenia and depression, but not Down Syndrome. So aha! Urban legend.
Posted by: MayBee | August 18, 2008 at 03:02 AM
Wow Sara, Thanks for that link. I am so glad the McCain campaign is now coming out punching at slanted media coverage. Wonder if Andrea Mitchell will now tell us which particular aides are saying this, or is she going to instantly acquire another case of convenient amnesia ala her Imus statements about everybody in the NBC news room knowing all about Valery Plame being CIA.
Posted by: Daddy | August 18, 2008 at 03:30 AM
I know that it's common blog etiquette to link to someone when you write about them or critique them, but I really wish people wouldn't link that that loathsome asshole Sullivan.
And as much as I enjoy when people give him the thorough bashing he deserves, I'd gladly give up the pleasure if it meant that people would stop linking him.
This jerk deserves to be working at McDonald's, not getting Internet traffic for being a douchebag.
Posted by: Kensington | August 18, 2008 at 03:31 AM
The NY Times story is fundamentally wrong.
It states that McCain was not in the building at all during the Obama questioning, thus implicitly suggesting that McCain was being disingenuous when he joked about trying to listen through the wall.
But in fact, McCain was indeed in the building (and the designated "cone of silence") for much of the interview with Obama. So the Times story is untrue.
The CNN story established that he was in a motorcade until about half an hour into the beginning of the show, and was in the building, in the "cone of silence" for the remainder of the time.
In addition the CNN story also states that, in advance of the show, Warren told both of the participants the general themes amd the first two questions.
"The pastor spoke to each candidate this week, giving the general themes. Warren decided to tell them each the first two questions in advance, about the three wisest people you know, and the biggest moral failings."
Posted by: Trochilus | August 18, 2008 at 03:38 AM
My favorite part of the CNN report was the latest in smarmy disclaimers:
This has become a familiar drill, hasn't it? Surrogates float a bogus charge while over at Camp Obama they suggestively respond that they won't stoop to pursuingClintonMcCain for wrongdoing.Posted by: JM Hanes | August 18, 2008 at 03:58 AM
Who is it that keeps on saying that Obama's statements come with an expiration date?
It looks like Sully's do too.
What is that, 45 days or so?
I've got cheese that lasts longer than that.
Posted by: Hoystory | August 18, 2008 at 04:27 AM
Does Andi want us to do the same with some of Barry's interesting factoids about his drug use and personal life?
Cuz it seems Barry's upbring was kinda weird.
Does Barry even go to church any more? Is that a game breaker for Mr. Catholic, Andi?
Barry, uh uh uh, aaand, you know, looked, you know, like the...uh uh uh, 10th grader he is.
Posted by: Rev. Dr. E Buzz Miller | August 18, 2008 at 06:31 AM
I'm not ready to accept Wiki's 'two bits' bit. I think six bits is correct and more in line with historical prices. For years, a haircut was benchmarked as the price of a bushel of wheat. When was wheat two bits a bushel?
====================================
Posted by: kim | August 18, 2008 at 07:02 AM
Who's Andrew Sullivan?
Posted by: WAL | August 18, 2008 at 07:14 AM
Really people? Give the two bits issue a rest. We're staring down the barrel of war with Russia, and you dolts want to waste my time by making me read about the price of a haircut? Is that your idea of important? Get a humungous grip.
Posted by: Frank Enstein | August 18, 2008 at 08:22 AM
Get it right. We're not talking about the price of a haircut, we're talking about what it used to be once upon a time. How am I supposed to roll out the barrel of war, or is oil, or is it war for oil, if you can't pay enough attention to get the essence of the conversation right?
===================
Posted by: kim | August 18, 2008 at 08:31 AM
This smells of deliberate distraction by the Obama camp to cover the fact that Obama made an angry attack at those questioning his story on his vote on infanticide. Turns out they were right and Obama was lying the whole time, and team Barry has to admit it now. So much for Hope and Change.
Posted by: Ranger | August 18, 2008 at 08:51 AM
Amen, and thank you Sara.
"And Kerry didn't have just his boat mates to worry about, he smeared the entire Vietnam Veteran corps and we waited over 3 decades for a chance to speak."
I do so hope Obama names Kerry as his running mate.
Posted by: Pagar | August 18, 2008 at 08:51 AM
JM Hanes-
Good grief on CNN and Mitchell.
Thinking back, I didn't think Obama did so badly at the forum he'd need to pull out the liar and cheater cards. Hawaii is -3 hrs from CA so the tired excuse works well and its such a massive step down for Obama to campaign for US President seeing as how his ambitions are to heal the world.
Posted by: RichatUF | August 18, 2008 at 08:59 AM
What the media is really telling us is how very badly THEY think Obama did at Saddleback.
Once again, they fully expose themselves before the cameras and in print as the partisan hacks they are to their very core.
Posted by: centralcal | August 18, 2008 at 09:09 AM
Those of us in the younger generation (I'm 31) had our first exposure to the 'Shave and a Haircut' line in the classic 'Who Framed Roger Rabbit?'. We learned the response as 'TWO BITS!!!' (accompanied by Roger bursting through a brick wall...)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096438/quotes
I imagine this is one of those coke/pop/soda things that varies regionally.
Posted by: Doug | August 18, 2008 at 09:17 AM
Andy professes to be a Roman Catholic and yet he doesn't understand why the sign of the cross would be a powerful symbol around the world? WTF?
This guy is just a grab-bag of convenient poses opportunistically deployed along the road to berate the credulous.
On the one hand, I'm sick of hearing about Excitable, no matter how thoroughly he is p*wned by people like Peter Wehner and Maguire. On the other hand, if it shuts him up, I'm all for it.
Posted by: CFB | August 18, 2008 at 09:34 AM
Well, Ed Jeffers clues me in that haircuts were five or ten cents in 1880 and a shave three cents.
=====================================
Posted by: kim | August 18, 2008 at 09:40 AM
Sue:
"The only way John McCain can be Swift Boated is if someone who was there with him causes McCain's campaign to scramble to answer the allegations."
I was recently at a party at an Admiral's home who was a POW with John McCain in NV. Naturally, we discussed the candidate. He said John McCain was the most ethical person he had ever met. Nuff said, Andy!
Posted by: Gia | August 18, 2008 at 09:56 AM
Wasn't there some late 50s early 60s movie with Christians in Roman times that did the cross in the dirt bit? I'm thinking maybe "Barrabas." I'm sure McCain and Solzhenitsyn both saw it.
Posted by: Chris | August 18, 2008 at 09:59 AM
Attacking McCain's Vietnam prisoner experience is a total loser for the lefties and for Obama. It cannot work and only makes them look pathetic and almost in panic. They must be really out of touch with the core of America and Americans to believe this will help them rather than hurt them. It only reminds people of McCain's greatest asset. Sorry bunch these Obama zealots.
Posted by: bio mom | August 18, 2008 at 10:08 AM
I think the proper term for orchestrated repetition of exaggerated or false complaints is "Borking." But the Left may not go for that one either.
Posted by: Kevin Murphy | August 18, 2008 at 10:10 AM
Nowhere in accounts of McCain's POW internment or the months following it, can I find any mention of his presidental ambitions. Devious fellow, no?
Posted by: Richard of Oregon | August 18, 2008 at 10:10 AM
This is all a piece with the "McCain cheated" theory. Obama is known to be a weasel who games the system, and McCain is contrasting himself as a person of integrity. So they attack McCain on integrity to tear him down.
If he loses, even once, on the integrity issue the foolish will move from the "hypocrite" to the known liar.
Posted by: Kevin Murphy | August 18, 2008 at 10:19 AM
And just like that, ArseThis goes into the killfile, where he joins 89, Don, and others as commenters whose comments I never see. If you're browsing with Firefox, there's no reason to ever see a troll more than once.
Posted by: bgates | August 18, 2008 at 10:22 AM
I continue to be stunned by the Saturday Night Throw Down at Saddleback. It was simply a perfect forum, which in itself is stunning since everyone, particularly me, predicted just the opposite.
Has anyone seen any numbers on how many watched? If the election is decided by an informed electorate, it's pretty much over. That of course is an enormous "if".
Now what can we do about Obama's ground game?
Posted by: Jane | August 18, 2008 at 10:33 AM
I would love to see the left bring up the POW issue with McCain as their star. First, I can't even think of someone on the left or adjacent to the Democrats, especially Obama's cadre that even came close to a POW camp and its nuance of torture, mental pain, exhaustion and comradeship. No counting McPeak's and Clark's survival school 3 and 5 day refresher courses as being the same. I've done those several times including counter-interrogation and its not the same. This will be a Orville Redenbacker moment if they try to pursue especially if it is led by that charlatan Sullivan.
Posted by: Jack is Back! | August 18, 2008 at 10:38 AM
bgates, are you *sure* you want ot put ArseThis in the killfile? After all, I'm *sure* he 'supports' the troops, both now and from back in the VN days, right?
He's popped up 'full-formed' on a couple of other blogs I read, so I'm guessing it's just a newish name for an older irrelevant troll.
Posted by: JorgXMcKie | August 18, 2008 at 10:51 AM
If the election is decided by an informed electorate
We can't just disenfranchise the Democrats wholesale like that.
Posted by: bgates | August 18, 2008 at 10:52 AM
And back to the original topic, the problem that The Excitable One and the Kossaks and that ilk is that they suffer from a form of "Pinky and the Brain" Syndrome, which is much like "Wile E. Coyote" Syndrome.
That is, they're so sure that they're geniuses and their opponents are morons, that any time their brilliant plans fail it must be because someone has cheated. They also tend to project a lot. I hope they keep it up, because I don't think the average American is anywhere near as dumb as they think, and this sort of behavior is just going to kill their chances.
Posted by: JorgXMcKie | August 18, 2008 at 10:54 AM
bgates, can you explain how to add names to your script?
Thanks.
Posted by: michaelt | August 18, 2008 at 10:55 AM
I stunned. The Koz left (and Excitable Andy) really can't be this stupid.
Isn't their motto "Yes we can"?
Posted by: M. Simon | August 18, 2008 at 11:07 AM
I have it on good authority that Andy ceased to exist some years ago and a consortium of right wingers post under his name just to give eachother something fun to write about on slow news days.
Really.
Posted by: clarice | August 18, 2008 at 11:10 AM
Now what can we do about Obama's ground game?
Indictments.
Posted by: M. Simon | August 18, 2008 at 11:10 AM
Attacking McCain's Vietnam prisoner experience is a total loser for the lefties and for Obama. It cannot work and only makes them look pathetic and almost in panic. They must be really out of touch with the core of America and Americans to believe this will help them rather than hurt them. It only reminds people of McCain's greatest asset. Sorry bunch these Obama zealots.
Well you see it worked against their HERO Kerry so all that is required is to do it against McCain.
I'm not surprised the lefys don't get nuance. I thought it was their speciality.
Too smart by half. H/T to PeterUK.
Posted by: M. Simon | August 18, 2008 at 11:19 AM
My Clarice moment:
I'm surprised the leftys don't get nuance. I thought it was their speciality.
Posted by: M. Simon | August 18, 2008 at 11:21 AM
On the one hand, I'm sick of hearing about Excitable, no matter how thoroughly he is p*wned by people like Peter Wehner and Maguire. On the other hand, if it shuts him up, I'm all for it.
Think of it as entertainment and the pain subsides.
Posted by: M. Simon | August 18, 2008 at 11:24 AM
On the one hand, I'm sick of hearing about Excitable, no matter how thoroughly he is p*wned by people like Peter Wehner and Maguire. On the other hand, if it shuts him up, I'm all for it.
Think of it as entertainment and the pain subsides.
Posted by: M. Simon | August 18, 2008 at 11:24 AM
michaelt - open up the script after you've installed it, and go down to line 24 where I start listing members of the array of knownTrolls. (I can't remember how many names I had in there when I put the script on the Greasemonkey site.) Go to the bottom of that list, and add more names in order - knownTrolls[1] = /one troll's name/;
knownTrolls[2] = "Another troll";
Use quotes if you're spelling out the name, or slashes if you want to be lazy and not write out a whole name (like I was with eightnine).
Posted by: bgates | August 18, 2008 at 11:25 AM
Get a humungous grip.
I've got a grip on my humungous.
NEXT
Posted by: M. Simon | August 18, 2008 at 11:28 AM
"Harley" needs a new name.
I propose "Honda 50".
Posted by: M. Simon | August 18, 2008 at 11:41 AM
Honda 50,
But McCain is certainly arrogant enough to manufacture a little extra legend
Barry sure has McCain beat on that one. He is all legend.
Posted by: M. Simon | August 18, 2008 at 11:48 AM
We can't just disenfranchise the Democrats wholesale like that.
Dammit.
Posted by: Charlie (Colorado) | August 18, 2008 at 11:58 AM
bgates, thanks!
Posted by: michaelt | August 18, 2008 at 12:32 PM