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September 19, 2008



I'd guess that Maliki is learning to trust Obama about as far as he can throw a piano.


Was not Obama asking Maliki to negotiate in poor faith with this administration? I know that sounds like nuance to the children in Obama's sandbox, but the Iraqis can smell double-dealing from way across the Tigris.


Plame's running Israel. Please tell me my imagination isn't real.


I thought it was Jordan about Foley.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

With the slowness of my connection, it would take me forever to look this up, but I could swear I remember news articles that said that Obama and Maliki met alone. Memory is that this was kind of a big deal at the time. No witnesses. All these latest stories seem to be about meetings with Zebari and Taheri. Misdirection?


As has been pointed out before, Maliki and Obama, shared the same opinion of the surge for differen reasons. One could say, Maliki voted 'present' with regards to support for the Iraq War, within the Da'wa caucus. He probably suspected that a direct military intervention would be the only way to get rid of Saddam; but he emotionally recoiled
against such a conclusion. Hashemi, the rotating Sunni speaker of the Parliament, did come around to supporting the surge after the brief outbreak of what was mistakingly identified as 'Civil War', a Tet level mischaracterization. Zebari, the
Kurdish Foreign Minister, based on previous
experience also supported the Surge. As did
Al Hakim, Maliki's rival with the SCIRI/Badr
brigades. Chalibi's kind of an odd character
in this; could it be he's still holding a grudge, much like DeGaulle did with the US;
after they backed Darlan & then Giraud. He must know that his life isn't really worth a plum nickel, if the Americans do pull out prematurely. Negotiating in Iraq is really close to the three levels of chess, featured
in Star Trek; and Barry as with all things proved a rank amateur. Biden's partition plan, would have really thrown a wrench into the plan; which Obama would have
further worsened to the benefit of the IRGC and Al Queda. It seems so breathtakingly cynical, from the candidate of in absencia
convicted former Iraqi electricity ministers, Baathist bag men, their Syrian slumlord beneficiaries, Fannie Mae embezzlers, Lehman largesse, that I don't doubt it.

Taheri, I trust despite the one error that I could see in his punditry; reAhmadinejad's
ghettoization of the remaining Tehran jewish settlement. His biography of Khomeini; laid bare the lack of threat that Saddam saw from him, in his fourteen year
exile in Najaf & Karbala. His history of the American Embassy in Tehran; "Nest of Vipers' points out the fallacy of the martyrdom of Mossadeq, his embrace of the Tudeh (Communists)nad how he was a totally unviable candidate for future political development. Juan Cole, started out almost as promising as Taheri; the dean of the historical Shia, he did some promising work into the Shia burial trade, the ties to the Inidan state of Oudh, et al drifted into conspiracism on his own right; yet CNN and even Olbermann still give him airtime. Nakkash is a more reliable source, with Vali Nasr a poor second.

JM Hanes


You linked to Jake Tapper's June 16th article for ABC news ("Obama Speaks With Iraqi Foreign Minister"), but his subsequent item for Political Punch on June 18th confirms the impression I had back in June. This is not the first time Zebari and Obama have disagreed about the content of private discussions!

Here's Jake Tapper

Obama and Iraqi Foreign Minister Have Different Memories of their Conversation
June 18, 2008 8:09 AM

On Monday, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Illinois, talked on the phone with the Iraqi Foreign Minister, Hoshyar Zebari.

At a press availability in Michigan, I asked Obama if Zebari had expressed any concern to him that his plans to withdrawal U.S. troops as president would undo any security advances.

"No, he did not express that," Obama said. "He did emphasize his belief that we've made real progress and I think was eager to see political accommodations between the factions follow up in the wake of this progress.

"I think that he expressed what President Maliki has expressed as well," Obama continued, "which is that the Iraqis are obviously concerned about their sovereignty and are not seeking a long term occupation by the U.S. And so my sense is that we should be able to execute a withdrawal and set a timeframe - a timetable that continues to allow US forces to support Iraqi forces in going after terrorists, that continues to train the Iraqi police and military as long as we're not training militias that are turning on each other. One area that I think is important to emphasize is that as a consequence of a huge spike in oil prices - the Iraqi government's budget is twice as large as it anticipated and so I think its important for the Iraqis to start picking up more of the tab both for reconstruction efforts as well as the need to continue to boost their military capacity."

But today comes this report that Zebari told the Washington Post "that he had some frank talk for the candidate: 'The foreign minister said ‘my message’ to Mr. Obama ‘was very clear...Really, we are making progress. I hope any actions you will take will not endanger this progress.’"

And here is the Wash Post editorial Tapper cites above:
Mr. Zebari's MessageIraq's foreign minister has a chat with Barack Obama.
Wednesday, June 18, 2008; Page A14

SEN. BARACK OBAMA told Iraq's foreign minister this week that he plans to visit the country between now and the presidential election. We think that's a good thing, not because Sen. John McCain has been prodding the candidate to do it but because it will give Mr. Obama an opportunity to refresh his badly outdated plan for Iraq. To do that, the Democrat needs to listen more to dedicated Iraqi leaders like Hoshyar Zebari, the foreign minister -- who, it seems, didn't hold back during their telephone conversation.

Mr. Obama laid out his current strategy for Iraq in November 2006, shortly before announcing his candidacy for president. At the time, Iraq appeared to be on the verge of a sectarian civilian war, and Mr. Obama was trying to distinguish himself in the Democratic primary race by offering a timetable for withdrawal. Nineteen months later, the situation in Iraq has changed dramatically, with violence down 75 percent from its peak and the Iraqi government and army in control of most of the country. But Mr. Obama has not altered his position: He still proposes withdrawing most U.S. troops according to a fixed timetable, set to the most rapid pace at which commanders have said American forces could be pulled out.

Mr. Zebari, who has served as foreign minister in every Iraqi government since 2003, finds Mr. Obama's proposal worrying. In a meeting with Post editors and reporters Tuesday, he said that after all the pain and sacrifices of the past five years, "we are just turning the corner in Iraq." A precipitous withdrawal, he said, "would create a huge vacuum and undo all the gains and achievements. And the others" -- enemies of the United States -- "would celebrate."

Mr. Zebari said he told Mr. Obama that "Iraq is not an island." In other words, an American withdrawal that destabilized the country would also roil the region around it and embolden U.S. adversaries such as al-Qaeda and Iran. "We have a deadly enemy," Mr. Zebari said. "When he sees that you commit yourself to a certain timetable, he will use this to increase pressure and attacks, to make it look as though he is forcing you out. We have many actors who would love to take advantage of that opportunity." Mr. Zebari says he believes U.S. forces can and should be drawn down. His point is that reductions should be made gradually, as the Iraqi army becomes stronger.

The foreign minister said "my message" to Mr. Obama "was very clear. . . . Really, we are making progress. I hope any actions you will take will not endanger this progress." He said he was reassured by the candidate's response, which caused him to think that Mr. Obama might not differ all that much from Mr. McCain. Mr. Zebari said that in addition to promising a visit, Mr. Obama said that "if there would be a Democratic administration, it will not take any irresponsible, reckless, sudden decisions or action to endanger your gains, your achievements, your stability or security. Whatever decision he will reach will be made through close consultation with the Iraqi government and U.S. military commanders in the field." Certainly, it makes sense to consult with those who, like Mr. Zebari, have put their lives on the line for an Iraq that would be a democratic U.S. ally. Mr. Obama ought to listen carefully to what they are saying.

Just in case the fog wasn't thick enough for ya.

JM Hanes


Looks like your initial ABC link above needs fixing.


I have a feeling there's an AnnenNothingberger post coming with the same sound as this one....WHOOOOOOOOOSSSSSH!

Cecil Turner

At this point the McCain camp has over-reached a bit and the Obama camp has enough cover and confusion that there press allies will declare this round for Obama.

Man, I don't see it. What he's admitted to (negotiating with foreigners on a domestic political issue) is bad; what he obviously did (worked against US interests for political advantage) is worse. McCain staffers' inability to pin the tail precisely on the donkey's dodging a%% is pretty much irrelevant.


Lending significant credence to Obama’s response [to the charges that he tried to interfere with negotiations] is the fact that — though it’s absent from the Post story and other retellings — in addition to Obama and Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, this July meeting was also attended by Bush administration officials such as U.S. Ambassador to Iraq Ryan Crocker and the Baghdad embassy’s Legislative Affairs advisor Rich Haughton, as well as a Republican senator, Chuck Hagel of Nebraska…

A Bush administration official with knowledge of the meeting says that during the meeting Obama stressed to Maliki that he would not interfere with President Bush’s negotiations concerning the US troop presence in Iraq, and that he supports the Bush administration’s position on the need to negotiate as soon as possible the Status of Forces Agreement, which deals with among other matters US troops having immunity from local prosecution.

Let's see, who to believe? ABC News or a a neocon whackjob with a history of making up stories for the benefit of other neocon whackjobs?


Good Morning to All!
IMO, thick fog is what most of the Obama supporters are trying to create in these articles. Any time the truth comes out about any Obama position, one finds it is based on lies.

Gefilte Fish

"or a a neocon whackjob with a history of making up stories for the benefit of other neocon whackjobs?"

OY! Those Meshugoim!

How did it happen? Looking back, one can see that with the confrontation between Iran and the Bush administration escalating over the nuclear issue, frequent outrageous statements against Israel and Jews issued by Iran's president, and the daily drumbeat in the media shaping public opinion as tensions build, the setting was ripe for running with a story that seemed to confirm an Iranian government following a Nazi script.

Some feared a replay of the kind of mis- or dis-information that primed Americans for war with Iraq. Others noted that the National Post was owned by the Asper brothers, who are known for their conservative and pro-Israel stands. "You can't have a war without a good disinformation campaign," opined Mathew Yglesias, of the liberal American Prospect Magazine.

Swanson TV Dinner

"what he obviously did (worked against US interests for political advantage) is worse."

It's outrageous, I tell you..............

1980 Carter vs. Reagan

Main article: October surprise

The original Carter October Surprise was first written about in a Jack Anderson article in the Washington Post in the fall of 1980, in which he alleged that the Carter administration was preparing a massive military invasion of Iran for rescuing the hostages in order to help him get reelected.

Subsequent allegations surfaced against Ronald Reagan alleging that his team had impeded the hostage release to negate the potential boost to the Carter campaign.[1]

During the Iran hostage crisis, the Republican challenger Ronald Reagan feared a last-minute deal to release the hostages, which might earn incumbent Jimmy Carter enough votes to win re-election.[2] As it happened, in the days prior to the election, press coverage was consumed with the Iranian government's decision--and Carter's simultaneous announcement--that the hostages would not be released until after the election.[2] In fact, the election coincidentally fell on the first anniversary of the 1979 hostage-taking, which may have contributed to Carter's loss to Ronald Reagan.

After the release of the hostages on the same day as Reagan's inauguration on January 20, 1981, some charged that the Reagan campaign made a secret deal with the Iranian government whereby the Iranians would hold the hostages until Reagan was inaugurated, ensuring that Carter would lose the election.[2] Two separate congressional investigations as well as several investigative journalists looked into the charges, both concluding that there was no plan to seek to delay the hostages' release.[2] At least three books, all titled October Surprise, have argued the case for the alleged conspiracy.[3]


Looks like your initial ABC link above needs fixing.


More international hijinks from the Party of Fun Hogs..............

"The Iran-Contra affair was a political scandal which was revealed in November 1986 as a result of earlier events during the Reagan administration. It began as an operation to increase U.S.-Iranian relations, wherein Israel would ship weapons to a moderate, politically influential group of Iranians opposed to the Ayatollah Khomeini; the U.S. would reimburse Israel for those weapons and receive payment from Israel. The moderate Iranians agreed to do everything in their power to achieve the release of six U.S. hostages, who were being held by Hezbollah. The plan eventually deteriorated into an arms-for-hostages scheme, in which members of the executive branch sold weapons to Iran in exchange for the release of the American hostages, without the direct authorization of President Ronald Reagan.[1][2] Large modifications to the plan were conjured by Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North of the National Security Council in late 1985. In North's plan, a portion of the proceeds from the weapon sales was diverted to fund anti-Sandinista and anti-communist rebels, or Contras, in Nicaragua.[3] While President Ronald Reagan was a supporter of the Contra cause,[4] there has not been any evidence uncovered showing that he authorized this plan.[1][2][5]

After the weapon sales were revealed in November 1986, Ronald Reagan appeared on national television and stated that the weapons transfers had indeed occurred, but that the United States did not trade arms for hostages.[6] The investigation was compounded when large volumes of documents relating to the scandal were destroyed or withheld from investigators by Reagan administration officials.[7] On March 4, 1987, Reagan returned to the airwaves in a nationally televised address, taking full responsibility for any actions that he was unaware of, and admitting that "what began as a strategic opening to Iran deteriorated, in its implementation, into trading arms for hostages."[8]

Many investigations ensued, including those by the United States Congress and the three-man, Reagan-appointed Tower Commission. Neither could find any evidence that Reagan himself knew of the extent of the multiple programs.[1] In the end, fourteen administration officials were charged with crimes, and eleven convicted, including then-Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger.[9] They were all pardoned in the final days of the George H. W. Bush presidency, who had been vice-president at the time.[10]

Now THAT'S some bullshit !!!


Bush is actively negotiating with the Iraqis after a good mission well accomplished; Carter was not negotiating with the Iranians after a pitiful mission badly screwed up.

To draw a parallel is to make squirrely lines not even on the paper.


Let's see, was Obama still sniffing coke and pushing poverty in 1986?


Morning Pagar!


Well Swanson TV Dinner the fact is Carters total incompetence was the reason he lost overwhelmingly. And the Iranians knew that Reagan wasn't about to accept the hostage situation, The Iranians knew the wimp was gone.

And the truly remarkable thing is that Obummer makes Carter look like a good candidate.


"To draw a parallel is to make squirrely lines not even on the paper."

Cranky, aren't we?


Trolls are always cranky.


Cranky? Hardly. Just laughing my ass off on the attempt to compare Bush with Carter. And Obama with Reagan. Ah, hah hah. Hah,hah,hah. Hah, hah, snort. Chuckle, deep breath, giggle, giggle , giggle.


Good Morning, Jane. Nice to see a few friendly posts amid the leftist despair over having a totally unvetted candidate, except by his terrorist friends.


Right, Royf, Obama is deeply crooked, Carter merely deeply stupid.



I blame Instapundit - and fear.


Just imagine if we'd actually elected Mondale, or Dukakis, or Gore, or Kerry. Now imagine if we'd elected Dole in 1996. Al Qaeda, throttled in the cradle, little doubt. No housing and banking mess. Will we learn. Yes, we can.


So after a procession of meritless, plain vanilla(coded racism alert) candidates, the Democrats nominate a rock star. What a joke; Alice Cooper would make a better President than Obama.


Good Morning J.O.M., the salon that never shuts its doors!!!!!!


Let's go OT early. :-)

It looks like the academics at Stanford are already setting up 'the' excuse for the Annointed One and savaging some of their own in the process. LUN

Money quote: "40 percent of all white Americans hold at least a partly negative view toward blacks, and that includes many Democrats and independents."

I love the dependent clause. The totally unironic surprise that there is overlap between the groups. You can almost read the reporters mind "40 percent of whites are racist, 40 percent of whites are Rethuglicans, so that makes sense... Holy Carp, some of the 40 percent are Dems!! This needs to be reportrd to the Central Scrutinizer!"

John Skookum

kim says: "Alice Cooper would make a better President than Obama."

I agree. He'd make a better President than a lot of people. Living in Arizona, I get to see the genial, community-minded, clean-living Christian fellow he is nowadays. Folks here love him, and if he has any political ambitions I suspect he could get himself elected to the statehouse.


As far as I know, the only thing the McCain campaign has said is that the report should raise serious concerns, and the IF the allegations are found to have substance, it would be a very serious matter indeed.

That doesn't seem like "plunging" to me. It draws attention to a serious matter and points out the need for further investigation into the matter. Why is that overreaching, or have there been additional statements from the McCain campaign?


I love it. The old "I know I am but so are you" argument from the lefty trolls. No need to deny, just say your guy did it too, plop up an article and voila. Their job is done. On to the next blog that dares to mention Obama is a tool...

Soulman Young

"Saturday, September 20, 2008
Obama has slight edge on McCain in Mich.
Poll: Democrat leads 43% to 42%"

- Detroit News (LUN)

M. Simon


But Alice Cooper is smart and aware.

OT but this one is for you kim:

Was over at No Quarter and the subject og Gerbil Warming came up. Got the usual round of ad homs and then a guy chimed in backing my position: i.e even the IPCC is at least temporarily off message.

Then a few more showed up to cover my six.

If even the lefties are starting to get it - its over. BTW I tied Gore, Hansen, Soros, and Lehman in a package for them. They get it.

And there is a Soros hatred over there that is near the intensity of what it is here. They know who their enemies are and they also know their friends.

It is strange hanging out with lefties for McCain/Palin and every one knows it is a Marriage of Convenience and yet there is respect in both directions.

JM Hanes


That really is funny. If Obama loses the election though, all the racists will be Republicans again soon enough -- even though the only people dealing race cards to date have been the Democrats, including Obama. I'm still not sure where they think we all go to learn the code and the secret signals.


Yeah, Simon, the warmistas are starting to get sullen. Larry has always been a wild man; loyalty always his strong suit. Boy, does he have a thing for Val. I've occasionally wondered if he became a Hillary supporter because the Plames threw in with her or whether he has his own reasons.

Somebody or something has put the kibosh on the old Scary's blog persona. I miss the old days of ALLCAPS curses and rants, and bannings that he forgot to make stick. Ooh it used to be fun to stir them up over there. Now, well I posted brief congratulations a couple of weeks ago and got no response from anyone. Discouraging. What's the fun of rabble rousing when all you get is a chorus of agreement?


By the way, Simon, what thread was that at No Quarter? I may have to go show the flag.

M. Simon


No Quarter.

Search on "Simon" - it is down in the middle of the thread by now so I don't know how much attention you will get.

M. Simon

What I like about those guys is that they are Democratic Socialists - they know if you are going to give away goodies some one is going to have to make a profit.



I know what you mean. To hear the Northern Moonbat branch of my family tell it, there must have been some secret class on my K-12 schedule between PE and Catechism. The irony comes in when I tell them the class I had in that slot grades 1-6 was spelling and vocabulary - words mean something!


Funny thing about Alice Cooper, he wanted to win the Vietnam war.

Captain Hate

Alice Cooper would make a better President than Obama.

Absolutely; in 2004 teh Coop nailed anybody that listened to morons in the music biz (Broooce Flintstone et al) for political insight and rightly so; other than drugs those idiots are as bereft of insight on anything more difficult than breathing as Semanticliar. Or Ozero.

Soylent Red


Central Scrutinizer!

THAT is a terrific reference, and one that is eerily fitting when talking about how our life would look under Democrat rule.


genial, community-minded, clean-living Christian fellow he is nowadays.

He's also a 3-handicap golfer and a shooter. It's one of my fondest dreams to play a round with Alice. I guess the beer cart would probably pass us by though.


Maybe we should look at Semanticleo and other moonbat trolls like him with a different perspective..according to this article, leftist trolls are helping McCain win the election...from Wizbang and Instapundit...



Tahiri - just another liar for the GOP cause
on something important.

but lets talk about the Limbaugh ad instead!


"Saturday, September 20, 2008
Obama has slight edge on McCain in Mich.
Poll: Democrat leads 43% to 42%"

I can see the headline if it was McCain 43% and Obama 42%....CANDIDATES STATISTICALLY TIED

Soylent Red

Nyuck, ben...

You said "troll" and Nick showed up.

Come over to my house and say "money".


Wizbang has a very interesting take on the polls and trolls (via Instapundit).
http://wizbangblog.com/content/2008/09/19/how-liberal-trolls-are-working-to-get-mccain-elected-president.php>Changing the party ids


If they are tied in Michigan as the poll suggests, O, it seems to me, is doing poorly.

M. Simon

Liberal Trolls

Good job *** et. al.


Thanks for the link, Simon. It looks like you and Dan have it pretty well covered. I liked Dan's link to Avery.


"but lets talk about the Limbaugh ad instead!

Absolutely, which lie in the ad did you like the most? That McCain and Limbaugh agree on immigration? The out of context Limbaugh quotes? So many to choose from....


"Come over to my house and say "money""

Let me try that here first, lest I could go first class...


Big bombing at the Marriott in Islamabad...Obama should sit down with the perpetrators so it won't happen again...


The report that Reagan asked the Iranians to delay the release of their American hostages in order to win the election back in 1980 was lapped-up and proliferated eagerly by Carter's shock-troops in the media.

The same media crew has been busy laying track for years. Think Dan Rather.

Obama's attempts at a similarly reported manipulation in Iraq this year - manipulation, which, if it occurred as reported, covertly uses the precedent of the reported Reagan-Iran manipulation for its unstated legal cover - may simply be his campaign reaching for another, older media-generated touchstone.

Did Reagan really negotiate a delay in the hostage-release in 1979-80? And why did Obama's campaign have the WaPo fall on its sword this time, further ceding its brand's historic credibility, rather than simply state Obama's protective precedent, as in "Reagan did it, first."

It appears the campaign recoiled at the last minute, and shied away from using an obvious tactic. Are these radicals growing soft?

Trolls Local 136

".according to this article, leftist trolls are helping McCain win the election"



"The same media crew has been busy laying track for years."

Don't know about that, but they are helping set the stage for framing Republicans in power as 'hypocrites' for bailing out Wall Street.

Another $Trillion in the Red. Oh, did I ironically use the word 'Red' as an adjective for Republican economic policy?

Interesting........mayhaps we should balance the checkbook. Instead of just NATIONALIZING the NON-profitable business world, we should nationalize a TRULY PROFITABLE partner in business crime....

Who should we choose.....I got it.



Oops! I shoulda wrote:

"And why did Obama's campaign have ABC fall on its sword this time, further ceding its brand's historic credibility, rather than..."

The WaPo's soiling of itself is in Tom's prior post. I'm mincing multiple JOM posts in my caffeinated brain today!



Thanks Soylent.

It doesn't seem to matter what flavor of political board you're visiting, a Zappa reference always seems to get welcomed. How he became an inadvertent common touchstone is beyond me. Maybe it has to do with all of us who used to listen to him and then graduated, got sober, got jobs and had families - though not always in that order [YMMV, not valid in AK, HI, PR or where prohibited by law.]

hit and run

Some earnest leftist trolls are not actually leftist nor particularly earnest and not even trolls.

Not saying any more than that.

And you shouldn't ask.

It's better if you don't know.

For all of us.


Help, I'm a rock.

JM Hanes


That ad reminded me of the quotes in newspaper ads for movies:

The worst casting evah turned a "Brilliant" script into cinematic dross. -- Famous Reviewer #1

I left, with most of the audience, before the final frames, wondering how anyone could possibly think "This Movie Is Worth Seeing" through to the end. -- Famous Reviewer #2


Thanks for that Wizbang link clarice and M. Simon. I don't know if I buy the premise that liberal trolls are helping McCain, but the poll analysis was very illuminating. I'd been wondering why the internals don't match the overall numbers in several polls and had been concluding "Bradley effect" - but party ID makes more sense.


"Maybe it has to do with all of us who used to listen to him and then graduated, got sober, got jobs and had families"

You never outgrow 'The idiot Bastard Son'
which was prescient in it's simplicity.
(Zappa's genius was in the arrangement, more so than lyrics)

It's paean to Dubya......

(the father's a nazi in congress today
The mother's a hooker somewhere in l.a.)
The idiot bastard son

(abandoned to perish in back of a car
Kenny will stash him away in a jar)
The idiot boy!

(all the time he would spend at the church he'd attend...
Warming his pew)
Kenny will feed him & ronnie will watch
The child will thrive & grow
And enter the world
Of liars & cheaters & people like you
Who smile & think you know
What this is about

(you think you know everything... maybe so)
The song we sing, do you know?
We're listening...
The idiot boy!


"Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exilec, or hanged."...Abraham Lincoln, 1863


Morning JOM!

I sleep late Saturday's after a week of 12 plus hour days with football and grading papers.

Just a comment from up up thread...isn't it interesting that two of America's biggest glame rockers in Alice Cooper and Gene Simmons are conservatives?

Trolls local 136

Woo Hooo!

Zappa baby.

thanks fiend>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


The idiots are the ones who don't recognize the masterful job Bush has done sheperding us through difficult times. Can you imagine Gore reeling in the wreckage of the Twin Towers, or Kerry running to the UN for a surge? Or Obama clamping down on crooks?

Dream on SF, your ideology is as bankrupt as Lehman and maybe for a similar reason. Soros got his fingers in the pie recipe.



i>Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exilec, or hanged."...Abraham Lincoln, 1863

With this is mind, a though I had yesterday in another thread on recent DEm tendencies in same:

Yet is this where we are going to allow ourselves to go? Are we going to find that its acceptable for the party not in power to intervene in foreign affairs as this group of Democrats have. Pelosi, Rockefeller, and now Obama have broken the so called "golden rule" now. By this standard, if Obama is elected, Mitch McConnell can circumvent foreign affairs to benefit the Republican Party as have Democrats over the last two years.

Are we allow this kind of conduct to be the norm - no matter who is is the White House.

We cannot allow the party not in the White House to involve themselves in foriegn affairs - especially if it is to serve their own partisan agendas. And of course as Lincoln says in a matter which endangers American troops in the field.

Now is the time to c


Now is the time to call the Democrats on this. If we do not, the next time it happens the results could be far, far worse.


Obama "interfered" with nothing -- he and his people were just legitimately concerned about being stuck with even more additional Bush-era headaches coming in during the waning months of our Worst President Ever. With both Sunni and Shi'ite Iraqis fed up with al-Qaeda's bloody and bullying ways even more than the US's incompetent stumbling, the main military concern for the US in any case is now Afghanistan (which should have always been the case) with both the Taliban and al-Qaeda being resurgent there.

By the way, anyone who knows anything at all about Randy Scheunemann knows that McCain's association with this slimeball is by itself more than enough reason to avoid having McCain elected President under any circumstances, as well as making McCain's contention as being a reformer a complete joke.

Charlie (Colorado)

We cannot allow the party not in the White House to involve themselves in foriegn affairs - especially if it is to serve their own partisan agendas.

Sadly, we don't seem to have much remedy; it depends on the honor and ethics of the opposing party.

Charlie (Colorado)

Oh good, there's a new memo out. I was getting a little tired of the old talking points.

M. Simon

Soros got his fingers in the pie recipe.

Some one broke his hand with a rolling pin.


Big bombing at the Marriott in Islamabad...Obama should sit down with the perpetrators so it won't happen again...

That made me laugh.


"as well as making McCain's contention as being a reformer a complete joke"

Actually if there's a joke in this election it's O (audacious agent of change) picking that tired gasbag as his veep. Someone cleverer than I has dubbed it the Zero and Zoysia ticket.

M. Simon

Randall J Scheunemann (196?) is an American lobbyist. He is the President of the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, which was created by the Project for the New American Century (PNAC), of which he is a board member. He was Trent Lott's National Security Aide and was an advisor to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on Iraq. He is a paid lobbyist for the country of Georgia and is 2008 Presidential candidate John McCain's foreign-policy aide. He lives in Fairfax Station, Virginia.

From the Wiki

Yeah. No way Republicans could support a guy like that. After all he has all the Republican talking points down.

And some Democrat talking points as well:

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty. - John F. Kennedy

Charlie (Colorado)

Sadly, Simon, if Jack Kennedy were alive today, he wouldn't be welcome in the D party.

Captain Hate

(Zappa's genius was in the arrangement, more so than lyrics)

Congratulations assclown; this identifies you as a musical moron. I gave up on most music bbs because their politics are so insane but please go visit them and post tripe like that and prepare yourself to receive more abuse than your fragile ego can process. Thanks for the laugh.



I hear what youre saying, but the greatest victories of conservatives has been in the "arena of ideas". The argument has to be taken to the Democrats that this above all is wrong. It has to be conveyed in our own conversations, and yes, that means here as I really feel that within this new media, conservatism has made its only advances since the Gingrich era.

During the decade I lived in South Carolina, I observed the state's bare knuckles politics. Democrats play this on a national scale, and the McCain campaign, a veteran of South Carolina primaries, is the first Republican campaign to take on the Democrats at their own game.

And the Dems, like the bullies they are, don't like being hit back.


Buy the way, speaking of the petroleum industry, it is true, there is no gas in Nashville Tennessee.

And I would like to thank all the neo-marxist environmental ashwipes for not being able to fill my tank! The last time this happened to me, I was in Mexico, where the nationalized PEMEX tanker was three days late, and my husband and I were stranded in a primative hut on the Yucatan for a couple of days.

Thanks to Pelosi, Reid, and the rest of the socialistdemocrats, we have so little refining and drilling capasity, that one big storm in the gulf wipes out the supply in much of the South East.

Socialism Socialism Rah Rah Rah! It is the great equalizer! Nobody has gas! But at least the stranded citizens of Nashville have a very low carbon footprint this week.


In the "arena of ideas", what, if any, are the Democratic Party ideas in play.

I have repeatedly, persistently requested any and all to catalog them.

Charlie (Colorado)

In the "arena of ideas", what, if any, are the Democratic Party ideas in play.

Why, "change", of course.

Oh, and "hope".


Ah SBW, we all know they can't tell us their real ideas, because the American people would recognize them for what they are.

But notice if you will, the Obama talking heads are not really blaming Bush per say, they are blaming our entire economic system--market capitalism. Even though is is plain that democrat interference (giving loans to people without assets, cooking fannie mae's books etc.) has been the catalyst for the mess we are in.


.....chan, chan, chaaaaaaaaaange. Change of fools


Rick, JMH, I left some musings at CACler. Your insight is appreciated.


Verner. Hmm. I wonder how my Dem congresscritter responds to that.


sbw and Verner: Doesn't his from the sidelines stance just give Obama the opportunity to meerly come out againt whatever McCain or Bush says for political expediency?

JM Hanes


"I also agree with ABC News that McCain adviser Randy Scheunemann should have poked at this a bit more carefully before plunging in.

Only because Camp McCain needs to make the case that electing Obama will be the worst foreign policy decision ever. Going after him one gaffe at a time is a pointless exercise. I'd say greased pig, but that's probably racist. Obama is a dangerous kitchen sink of faux pas and that's a narrative just begging to be established.

IMO, McCain better get his MoJo on and pop Obama out of his comfort zone -- which basically consists of Iraq & Afghanistan, where he's got eleventy seven different sets of talking points. That's McCain's comfort zone too, but if he hopes to make a telling contrast, he needs to be going after Obama on China, Japan, Latin America, Brazil etc. and all those other countries Obama talks about so glibly in his Howdy Partner! Platform. McCain must demonstrate his superior grasp of the rest of the world -- especially when Iraq is in considerable flux, and Obama can greet every piece of news, good or bad, with "No one has said I told you so more often than I have."


"Obama is a tool..."

Yes,but whose tool?


(turn and face the strain)
Dont want to be a richer man
(turn and face the strain)
Just gonna have to be a different man
Barry will change you
Its Hope and Change time".


"In the "arena of ideas", what, if any, are the Democratic Party ideas in play?"

The ideas are out there, you can see them if you squint real hard.

First, I remember Al Gore saying that the Dem's were for giving meds to old folks so they could buy dog food, or something: call it the Meds-for-Petfood Plan.

Then, a Democrat Senate Leader, Tom Daschle, said something about how Americans should use their tax rebate to buy a muffler for their Hyundais - not sure what that was about. I went to Vegas with mine.

Then, there was Rangel's draft-bill: seems the Democratics are highly militant and want to stack our forces with new blood, using a lottery.

Last, the Dem's have demonstrated a clear commitment to the fetus - they're fully down with its importance in all aspects of life, advocating its involvement in everything from daily political commentary to intra-cellular laboratory experiments.

What I'm getting at is, the harder I stare at the party product, I can see the outlines of a platform. It is a softer, gentler pro-economy and pro-military, pro-fetus platform: basically the Republican's platform on Xanax.


We learned from you Swift boat liars
how to fight fire with fire


JM Hanes


"Sadly, Simon, if Jack Kennedy were alive today, he wouldn't be welcome in the D party."

Indeed, it's also passing strange that a half century later, the only folks who still demand that politicians explain away their Catholicism are the Democrats.


"Obama is a tool..."

Yes,but whose tool?

Someone was on a radio talk show yesterday, Brad somebody, saying Tom Ayers was Obama's godfather. That Ayers facilitated the $50 million grant from Annenberg because no one would give an unrepetant terroist, former FBI most wanted, that kind of money without incredible outside influence.

The grant was secured and Obama made chairman over more qualified people in the education field.

Unfortunately I had to leave the car befor I got more detail.


"Obama "interfered" with nothing -- he and his people were just legitimately concerned about being stuck with even more additional Bush-era headaches coming in during the waning months"

No Obama, the Heir Presumptuous,is suffering from Premature Administration.


SOFA lies from the GOP

GOP senator Hagel ays Tahiri lied.

but what else is new.



Nice use of a David Bowie classic!



You helped me realize how Obama can believe he isn't lying when his vote against providing medical care for babies born alive after an abortion is discussed. People refer to "infants" or "babies" left to die after a botched abortion but to Obama they are a fetus. It comes down to what the meaning of is is.

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