The Answer Is Blowing In The Wind

Blowing in the offshore wind, actually - the Mid-Atlantic Bight, to be specific.  The NY Times magazine has a fascinating piece on wind power politics which includes this:

The amount of power Dhanju was describing, Mandelstam knew from Kempton, was but a small fraction of an even larger resource along what’s known as the Mid-Atlantic Bight. This coastal region running from Massachusetts to North Carolina contained up to 330,000 megawatts of average electrical capacity. This was, in other words, an amount of guaranteed, bankable power that was larger, in terms of energy equivalence, than the entire mid-Atlantic coast’s total energy demand — not just for electricity but for heating, for gasoline, for diesel and for natural gas. Indeed the wind off the mid-Atlantic represented a full third of the Department of Energy’s estimate of the total American offshore resource of 900,000 megawatts.

The Mid-Atlantic Bight was particularly attractive to Mandelstam because offshore winds blow strong and steady throughout the day, which means offshore wind is more likely than land-based wind in the Northeastern United States to generate electricity when demand is high. More important, offshore wind farms, Mandelstam explained, can be built close enough to big, power-hungry cities — or “load centers” — to avoid construction of expensive and politically unpopular transmission lines. “That’s a chronic problem facing land-based wind in West Texas or in California,” Mandelstam said, “or in the Dakotas, or Wyoming,” where wind resources are often many hundreds of miles removed from the cities they are meant to serve.

The DOE has a 248 page study on 20% wind power by 2020 and here is a cool wind resource map.  While we work towards 2020, drill here, drill now.

Comments

[Patrick S Lasswell]

Are you saying putting windmills off Cape Hatteras is a GOOD idea?

And you're going to mount them on what?

And you're going to maintain them how?

And you're going to route power where?

And you're going to spend how much to install them?

And you're going to pay how much in claims when they break loose and sink ships?

I've been off Cape Hatteras in a December gale. You don't want to go there for power.

Is this just some way of making storing nuclear waste in kindergartens seem inexpensive, thoughtful, and safe?

[PeterUK]

The global gaddarine rush for wind power is the modern equivalent of Tulip Mania and the South Sea Bubble.The sole reason is subsidies,this is a scam of epic proportions.

[clarice]

Hush,PUK--This is something S.C.A.M. needs to get into. If you can't figure out how, call our man Ballard.

[Bob]

With NIMBY minds like R.F'n Kennedy's it'll never happen... not that it should!

An Ill Wind off Cape Cod

[Paul Zrimsek]

Intriguing idea, but the lack of opposition makes me skeptical; the Iron Law of Energy Technology holds that any such technology will be denounced by environmentalists to the extent that it succeeds in producing energy. When we start hearing the warnings about how extracting wind energy will disrupt the climate, that'll be the time to invest.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Patrick, does it orry you even a little that the article says "from Massachusetts to north Carolina"? Obviously, if off Hatteras isn't feasible, they'd pick somewhere else in that thousand-mile stretch of coast.

But it might be more interesting to look into the sources of natural gas off Hatteras.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Paul, I just quoted you on that, on Explorations. (L as always, UN)

[GMax]

Is Patrick the spokesman for the Kennedy clan? Sounds like the same hysterical not in my backyard stuff we got from the Kennedys to me. Shall we all just freeze in the dark?

[PeterUK]

Clarice,
We are doing very well with carbon trading,no capital outlay,no product.Even better than selling Carbon Indulgences.

[clarice]

Very good..just read the DNC carbon trading scheme re their gaseous convention netted them around $18.00.

Keep those schemes going, folks. Baby needs a new pair of Ferragamos.

[sbw]

But, but, but, won't the drag from windmills slow the earth's spin and, who knows, maybe gravity will be affected and we'll all float away.

[clarice]

That, or one of those propellers will fly off and hit a cerain compound in Hyannisport and the bird pate created by the mills will land on the windsurfer Kerry's piloting thru the shoals.

[Neo]

What about the environmental issues .. real and imagined ?

Won't all these wind mills cause the earth's revolution to slow ?

[Neo]

Err ..
Won't all these wind mills cause the earth's rotation to slow ?

[GMax]

Bird pate? I want something from a bird to land on Kerry, pate works too.

[PeterUK]

"That, or one of those propellers will fly off and hit a cerain compound in Hyannisport".As they do.

Me,I'm for the bulk carrier adrift in a gale scenario.

[matt]

can we try to put the windmills in DC first? There's far more hot air being blown there when Congress is in session.

failing that, 100 yards off the beach in Hyannisport is a good place to start. Energy Independence Now!

[Neo]

This post reminded me that if your traveling down the PA turnpike looking for the exit to Shankesville (i.e. United 93, 9/11) .. there is wind farm along the turnpike just east of the exit.

[sbw]

Everyone has a pipe-dream, but I want an inventory of all the windmills installed to date with two columns.

1) How much was the government subsidy (dollars and percentage) for installing it?

2) Is it broken and has no subsidy that makes it worth fixing?

[Patrick S Lasswell]

Charlie,

They are quoting total wind production capacity. Total means everyplace, not the choicest bits. It makes no mention of the expense involved in gathering the energy and it makes no mention of the availability of the energy. Since you can't use December gale energy in your D.C. air conditioner in August, there is yet another layer of fraud in this proposal.

Natural gas off Hatteras is an entirely different story. The energy density is much higher, requiring substantially less equipment exposure to access the resource. We are talking about orders of magnitude less ongoing expense and exposure. For about the same infrastructure, a natural gas drilling rig can claim 100 times more energy. Energy that is available when and where you want it. (Assumes that a Cape Hatteras worthy windmill must be roughly as sturdy as a North Sea oil platform.)

[Joseph Somsel]

The sooner people wake up to the scam that is wind power, the better the Republic will be.

They cost too much, they are intermittent, and they don't match human electrical demand.

Wind mills are a technology that we've been using for thousands of years. True, the construction materials have improved but that doesn't change the basic issues.

The advocates will insist that electric storage will make the problems go away. Here's an economic analysis that shows that more electrical storage on the grid prefers coal and nuclear, not wind and solar.

http://www.energypulse.net/centers/article/article_display.cfm?a_id=1808

[JM Hanes]

Neo:

"Err ..Won't all these wind mills cause the earth's rotation to slow?"

No, because it will be a much smaller planet after all the oil that keeps it inflated has been pumped out of the ground.

[PeterUK]

Wind power is distorting the quest for alternative sources of energy. Why would companies spend money on R&D when there is a guaranteed income from wind farms?
I don't know if the US have the equivalent of Renewable Obligation Certificates,but in view of the global madness over WP,you probably do.
Shove up a wind farm,get the higher prices guaranteed by the ROC which the utilities pass on to the customer as green electricity.
A word from our sponsors.
Get the new SCAM Personal Power Propeller Beanie $99.99/

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Sure, but then you'd expect them to go to the easy places first. You're fretting about them putting windmills in the hard place.

That said though, it's not like we don't build things that stand up to Hatteras gales already.

[Rick Ballard]

"No, because it will be a much smaller planet after all the oil that keeps it inflated has been pumped out of the ground."

I didn't know that. I heard that slowing the rotation was a good thing cause of the sustainability issue. If it rotates more slowly, it will last longer. Plus there's the possibility of adjusting the number of windmills on line in order to make nights and days longer or shorter depending upon the preference of the majority.

Seems like a nice democratic idea to me.

All this stuff is going to be obsolete as soon as the patent for my solunar powered windmill comes through anyway.

[Rick Ballard]

"No, because it will be a much smaller planet after all the oil that keeps it inflated has been pumped out of the ground."

I didn't know that. I heard that slowing the rotation was a good thing cause of the sustainability issue. If it rotates more slowly, it will last longer. Plus there's the possibility of adjusting the number of windmills on line in order to make nights and days longer or shorter depending upon the preference of the majority.

Seems like a nice democratic idea to me.

All this stuff is going to be obsolete as soon as the patent for my solunar powered windmill comes through anyway.

[PeterUK]

Sadly Chaco, they don't build them like that anymore.The turbine towers are some 300 - 400 feet high.

[matt]

This is Bill, new Idea....

methane collectors above dairy farms.....

[Buzz]

Why McCain is a bad idea for everyone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u-lvizDuL0

[km]

In 2002, California mandated that the state supply 20 percent of electricity from renewables by 2010. Today, utilities actually sell less renewable power, as a percentage of the total, than they did in 2002. The PUC now says we might hit 20 percent by 2013 -- if Congress will stop letting the production tax credit expire and if people will stop filing lawsuits against transmission line projects. Fat chance.

Further, wind isn't "guaranteed" power. Maybe it always blows in the Bight. But on the continent, it peaks when it's needed least: in the spring and fall.

Wind is warm and fuzzy. Makes you feel good about your footprint. But it's not the answer.

Drill, baby.

[GMax]

OH Msimon, carry to tell me I was right on the Democrats on drilling? Its a sham, trying to look like they are for it when a poison pill is buried in the legislation which makes it very unlikely any Coastal state will act to allow it. Here:

While lifting a 25-year federal ban on most offshore oil and natural gas drilling, the legislation would block Virginia and other coastal states from sharing in a $2.6 trillion bonanza of tax revenue expected to flow from offshore fields. A Senate bill still in the works would give states part of the money.

Unless states stand to profit from offshore development, they almost surely would exercise their right under the bill to block any drilling within 100 miles of their shores, critics of the House initiative charged.

“With no financial incentive, no state will choose to ‘opt in,’ ” House Republican leader John A. Boehner of Ohio told reporters, “and this bill will result in little or no new American energy production.”

Rep. Thelma Drake, a Norfolk Republican who has taken a prominent role among pro-drilling forces, was even more critical.

The new bill “appears to be little more than a political ploy,” Drake charged in a prepared statement. Democrats intend to “tell the American people that they voted to go after more American energy while winking to the environmentalists to say that this increased production will never

[Danube of Thought]

Sorry, Buzz, but he's leading in the polls. Looks like you're in for a major dose of unhappiness. But cheer up; it'll make you stronger.

[Porchlight]

I just like the word "bight."

[Tom Maguire]

I just like the word "bight."

I read the article about three days ago but couldn't get "bight" out of my mind. Couldn't really come up with a "Bite me" gag, either, so here we are.

[Danube of Thought]

Off-topic, but irresistible--a sign of panic at HuffPo:

"Sen. Joe Biden's a perfectly appropriate vice presidential running-mate for Sen. Barack Obama. He's got 36 years of Senate experience, is a true intellect, a foreign policy expert, and a genuinely nice guy. But ever since Sen. John McCain added plucky Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin to his ticket, the old adage nice guys finish last is beginning to take on new meaning in this year's presidential contest. It's time to dump Biden and replace him with Sen. Hillary Clinton. I don't care how it's done. Campaign chief David Axelrod can figure that out. And the sooner the better. Because I'm starting to think that if Team-Obama doesn't do something dramatic fast, it's gonna lose this election. There's a worrisome shift in momentum and in the polls. The Palin phenomenon, while truly unfathomable to Democrats, has energized McCain's campaign and allowed him like Houdini to snatch Obama's 'change' theme right out from under him. It's time to snatch it back."

[clarice]

The important thing is that Axelrod pays no attention to Kaus or to TM who highlighted Kaus' suggestions.
It's nothing Axelrod.Scroll on by. Simply a bourgeois distraction. It'll sap your revolutionary fervor.

[bgates]

Couldn't really come up with a "Bite me" gag, either
Seems like there should be something in bight/Biden/wind power, but I can't get it.

I'm enjoying the JMH-Rick science hour. Finally I understand why the sea levels are rising: the continents are losing their oil cushion. No wonder we shouldn't drill offshore.

If the wind in the bight is only good for off-season power, couldn't we use balloons or something to track it and find out where the wind is in the summer and winter?

[Chris Thorne]

Denmark had exactly the same love affair with offshore wind, and they invested massively in it in the 1990s.

End result? A disaster.

The Danes found out empirically that the offshore wind farms tend to get becalmed on clear, cold winter nights, when the demand for power is at its peak. In fact, because the turbine steering mechanisms need power of their own, the wind farms actually became a drain on the rest of the grid at times!

What has kept the Danish warm and well lit during the frequent periods when their wind resources have gone flat has been their ability to buy power from their neighbors off of the rest of the European grid. Frequently power from nuclear plants.

I'd absolutely love to see a popular referendum saying WIND ONLY, and to have the Danes have to live with the consequences of that for a few years. That would mean having entire Danish neighborhoods and cities getting very dark and very cold at times. It would be a very instructive case study in debunking this wind hooey.

--

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

Or, it's in the bounding main:

Google may take its battle for global domination to the high seas with the launch of its own “computer navy”.

The company is considering deploying the supercomputers necessary to operate its internet search engines on barges anchored up to seven miles (11km) offshore.

The “water-based data centres” would use wave energy to power and cool their computers, reducing Google’s costs. Their offshore status would also mean the company would no longer have to pay property taxes on its data centres, which are sited across the world, including in Britain.

....The supercomputers housed in the data centres, which can be the size of football pitches, use massive amounts of electricity to ensure they do not overheat. As a result the internet is not very green.

[scottl720]

'bight' is also a nautical, climbing, rope handling term for a loop of rope. many knots start with a 'bight' of rope. great word. another good one is the whaling term 'fake'.

[Danube of Thought]

And as everyone who has ever gone to sea has been told, "Never stand in a bight." (It's a good way to lose a foot.)

[Patrick S Lasswell]

Charlie,

1. That's on dry land, not offshore where the wind farms must be. Unless you're planning on buying most of the richest people in the country's beach houses. (Good luck shoving that through the courts...)
2. All the moving parts are enclosed on the lighthouse. On windmills, the fiddly bits MUST be out twisting in the breeze.
3. That is a tiny little thing; for the windmills each blade is that tall...and is in continuous movement.
4. That is single public works project, not multiple for-profit generating stations. That Cape Hatteras lighthouse had to endure nature, not corporate power-point sessions.

In the next couple of years, there is going to be an epic fail of one of these massive frauds and it's going to make the outcry for the Exxon Valdez seem like a murmur.

[scott]

Gibson: Sen. Obama, can you tell me what a fake box is?

Obama: well, ah.. as i've always said er.. thats um.. where michelle keeps my ah.. newports.

Gibson: and you Mr. Palin?

First Dude: pffft.

[Molon Labe]

"This coastal region running from Massachusetts to North Carolina contained up to 330,000 megawatts of average electrical capacity."

Ah, so the total wind field in 1000 miles of coastline contains the power equivalent of 300 nuclear plants. What to do?

[M. Simon]

Clarice,

My piece on the mortgage meltdown is up (heh).

The Best Congress Fannie Could Buy.

It is long, but I have tied Rat Bastard ∅ into the whole mix along with ACORN, voter fraud, the Cong. Black Caucus, etc.

Enjoy.

[A Stoner]

Wind power is not a good idea, no matter where you put the things. Costs too much. Spend the money on something that puts out more power, or costs less to build.
It is unreliable, requiring back up systems. Build something reliable enough that it does not require back up systems.

[centralcal]

The whack job, Semanticleo, has pooped all over the carpet and whizzed on the furniture at the other thread.

Hannity's interview with Palin has been postponed until Wednesday due to weather issues.

[anduril]

Link below to fascinating Spiegel International article re what NATO intelligence services have known for some time re the Georgian conflict. Read it. It reflects (pun intended) poorly on McCain's reactions and choleric statements--not to mention Bush's foreign policy team. There's no point bringing Palin into the discussion, since she only knows what her neocon briefers want her to know. But McCain should know better.

DID SAAKASHVILI LIE?
The West Begins to Doubt Georgian Leader

Warning: this article is more than 25 words long.

[M. Simon]

What to do about offshore wind?

The turbines are well proven.

What is needed is to phase out the subsidy for wind over a period of 10 years to give the companies in the business time to adjust.

Another doubling of turbine size to the 6 to 7 MW range should make the turbines competitive with coal and nuclear.

What is necessary to make this work is to get government restrictions on turbine siting eliminated (6 miles from shoe or more should maintain property values) and eliminate wind subsidies.

[M. Simon]

anduril,

Michael Totten disagrees with you.

SAAKASHVILI Didn't Lie?

[M. Simon]

Saakashvili Didn't Lie.

[Joseph Somsel]

The experience so far with offshore wind has not been encouraging. The UK and Denmark have made investments in it so there is some track record but it is not as glowing as the advocates claim.

[M. Simon]

On shore wind peaks in winter. Esp in the Midwest.

[Atojh]

Palin is a foreign aid reformer. She's going to stop Biden's letters to the treasury every year forgiving 'loans.' 80 billion since 96. We could have paid all the mortgages off.

Instead she has to back Georgia killing it's own people for cash. 1 billion aid. 1 billion loans. 1+ billion military. All he had to do is kill a few hundred of his own people like Saddam. She might be able to stop all the cash going out through the five year emergency sustainable budgets. Obama had that started and Congress doubled and tripled all the budgets. We can't afford to give away billions anymore.

[Danube of Thought]

Patrick S. Lasswell, are you related to Jim?

[M. Simon]

GMax,

I never disputed you on that claim. In fact I would have agreed with you.

[anduril]

Another article from Spiegel that's more than 25 words long. However, speed readers like Simon will digest it quickly:

ROAD TO WAR IN GEORGIA
The Chronicle of a Caucasian Tragedy

[Extraneus]

Ok, I'll bight.

Nuclear power is already here, doesn't require a distributed network of undeveloped and questionable windmills and associated infrastructure, and has the added benefit of smoking out the dishonest in this debate.

Anyone who claims to care about global warming, climate change, or whatever they're calling it these days, and isn't advocating nuclear power, deserves to have their motives questioned.

[matt]

off topic

Obama Friendly Lehman Brothers to File Chapter 11.

Open Secrets.org via Patterico

Lehman Brothers Contributions to sitting democrats 72%

Obama: $395K
Hillary: $410K
Schumer: $181K
Dodd: $166K

McCain: $117K

This apparently represents all contributions to sitting members of Congress. Since McCain and Dodd have been there much longer, the numbers reflect a higher rate of investment in legislative favoritism to Obama, Clinton, and Schumer.

[Pofarmer]

Ah, so the total wind field in 1000 miles of coastline contains the power equivalent of 300 nuclear plants. What to do?

First you divide that by 3, then you figure out what it's going to cost to build and maintain the windmills, then you build 50 nukes and be done with it.

[Pofarmer]

Another doubling of turbine size to the 6 to 7 MW range should make the turbines competitive with coal and nuclear.

Not. Gonna. Happen.

[Pofarmer]

Anduril has now become a full fledged troll. Neat.

[Danube of Thought]

Rasmussen now has Pennsylvania tied, 47% each.

[M. Simon]

Another doubling of turbine size to the 6 to 7 MW range should make the turbines competitive with coal and nuclear.

Not. Gonna. Happen.

Why do you say that? The maximum feasible size last I looked (about 4 or 5 years ago) was 12 MW.

What do you have?

[M. Simon]

pofarmer,

With off shore wind the division is less than 3. Probably less than 2 because the wind is more constant.

[M. Simon]

The Truth About Russia in Georgia - Totten

[M. Simon]

It wonders me what so many here have against wind. If the private sector can make a profit ion it without government funds what is wrong with it?

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Anduril, do you have a link to the German article? Sometimes the English translation in Spiegel is a little weird.

[narciso]

Reliable history is hard to come by, specially when you deal in contested/
portioned lands like the Caucasus,
consequently,when one faction presents a unanimous ‘narrative, that many in the media seem to absorbs, it’s important to examine other narratives, that explain the situation more fully:Href<http://georgia
ndaily.com/index.phpoption=com_content&task=view&id=6001&Itemid=65> and href fairuse.100webcustomers.com/itsonlyfair/wsj01.html>. to show how far back this last crisis really starts. Now that piece shows only a small slice of a long standing conflict; between the Imperial power,Russia,
going into a former colony,Georgia, to crush its democratic nature. A step that has backfired becasue it has exposed how pathetically the vaunted 58th Land Army performs; has caused a sizable cost to the economy, and has encouraged some resistance
by normally indifferent parties; like Obama
and co. Yes I know, they don't mean it, but it is the though that counts.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

It wonders me what so many here have against wind. If the private sector can make a profit ion it without government funds what is wrong with it?

Speaking of reading like the English translation of German....

Anyway, though, I agree with you in general, but I see the other side too: if the windpower schemes are only feasible with government funding, then pushing them just brings about more market distortion.

[Luc]

"It wonders me what so many here have against wind."
Maybe it is just because it is passing ;)

[Pofarmer]

It wonders me what so many here have against wind. If the private sector can make a profit ion it without government funds what is wrong with it?

Absolutely nothing if you kill the EXTREMELY substantial subsidies for it. It's so far from competitive it's ludicrous. I have yet to see a windfarm published with over 28% efficiency.

[Pofarmer]

if the windpower schemes are only feasible with government funding, then pushing them just brings about more market distortion.

Around here we call it throwing good money after bad.

[Molon Labe]

"Why do you say that? The maximum feasible size last I looked (about 4 or 5 years ago) was 12 MW."

Wind turbines don't just conjure energy out of nowhere. There has to be - in a perfect world with perfect efficiency - 12 MW of power in the wind impacting the turbine blades to begin with.

Is there? I doubt it. Certainly not on a continuous basis.

[Pofarmer]

Interestingly enough, our Rural electric coop just did a write up on alternative energy. The big thing now is that you can sell energy back to the coop, at WHOLESALE rates. They did two households. One had installed a windturbine, the other installed a PV system. Both have meters that meter total output and excess power sold back to the system.

The wind turbine was a 2KW unit. It cost $10,000 to put up and in 7 months managed to generate $35 worth of electricity. That's a 142 year payout with no maintenance and no interest.

The PV system is a 4.2 KW system. It cost $50,000 installed, and in 17 months it had managed to generated $600 worth of electricity. That's a 118 yr payout with no interest and no maintenance.

There's good reason everybody and their brother ain't jumpin on this stuff.

[Fisher]

Not that this isn't an interesting subject, but could someone start a thread regarding the New York Post article today that implies that Obama discussed delaying U.S. withdrawl from Iraq which.

[JM Hanes]

O/T

bad:

You're just who I was looking for! I'm finishing up my revisions on Radical Planks and I've got a couple questions that I think you answered already elsewhere on these boards.

I'm looking for the amount of the first grant to Klonsky, as well as the grand total. Do we know where the story about him being a cab driver when he got his first grant comes from, link-wise?

You mentioned that CAC gave $25,000 to ACORN, and I'd love to have a link for that info if you can tell me where to find it.

Jump ball for anyone who knows:

Do I need to call Klonsky a former Maoist? Or was he an admitted Maoist back when he was getting CAC money or any time since then? Links would be great, if you've got 'em.

Is Obama on record anywhere opposing "teaching to the test"?

Any/all assistance would be much appreciated, because I'm either going to finish this thing up tonight or check into the asylum. Man, have I got a headache!

[JM Hanes]

Shoot, I could have sworn I saw bad's name at the end of this thread. Looking more and more like the asylum.

[Pofarmer]

Feds Say Cape Wind Would Cost Two to Three Times Current Electric Prices

BOSTON, Jan. 17 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- Buried deeply in the federal
Minerals Management Service (MMS) Draft Environmental Impact Statement
(DEIS) is a whopping admission that Cape Wind's offshore wind plant would
produce electricity at two to three times current wholesale prices in the
area.

The DEIS indicates electricity produced by Cape Wind is projected to
cost $122 per MWh - more than double the recent price of wholesale
electricity in the ISO New England electricity market that supplies part of
the Cape and Islands' demand. According to the report, ISO New England
average prices were $66 per MWh over the last two years in southeastern
Massachusetts.

That cost doesn't include the state and federal subsidies that Cape
Wind is lining up - over $1 billion in MA renewable energy credits and an
additional $300 million from the federal Production Tax Credit. Add those
subsidies in, and the average cost for a megawatt hour of electricity is
three times the current average price, or over $190 per MWh.

Excessive long-term electrical rates led to the cancellation of several
offshore projects last year. Following the termination of a
multibillion-dollar project off the coast of Texas, the controversial Long
Island Power Authority project was also shelved after reports showed that
LIPA would absorb significantly higher rates at $290 per MWh. Similarly in
Delaware, the Bluewater offshore proposal faltered on news that ratepayers
there would see a premium of nearly $120 per MWh, or if commodities
continued to escalate in price, the additional price per MWh could be as
high as $550. Calculations by the Delaware Public Services Commission
showed the project could increase electric bills by as much as $55 per
month.

LUN

[Pofarmer]

Not that this isn't an interesting subject, but could someone start a thread regarding the New York Post article today that implies that Obama discussed delaying U.S. withdrawl from Iraq which.

Just more copperhead treason.

Nothing to see here.

[M. Simon]

Absolutely nothing if you kill the EXTREMELY substantial subsidies for it. It's so far from competitive it's ludicrous. I have yet to see a windfarm published with over 28% efficiency.

Efficiency has nothing to do with it. It is $ per KWh that matters.

BTW nuke plants are only 33% efficient. While a well designed coal plant runs in the low 40s and a dual cycle gas turbine runs in the 60s.

So I guess we scrap the coal plants and go with gas turbines - which with fuel produce some of the highest cost electricity.

[BobS]

MSimon:

Way to break out the archives!!!!!!:

RAT BASTARD

[M. Simon]

Pofarmer,

Wind and natural gas are complimentary and dispatch in the same time frame.

In addition wind is higher in winter when natural gas would be better for home heating.

What you want is natural gas loads to max out in the summer when there is a lot of excess capacity.

You have to think of the system.

[M. Simon]

Bob,

What did I do? Can I apologize now?

[M. Simon]

Pofarmer,

I'm not talking backyard wind. Utility scale wind is a different kettle of fish.

[Ah]

Totten? We passed the radio station legislation. I guess he writes the history. He's not worth the cash. We need USIA back!!

[M. Simon]

Molon Labe,

Wind turbines are rated peak power. average over a year on land (depending on siting) is about 1/3 of peak rating.

And yes at certain times you will get the whole 12 MW from the turbine.

[Ah]

http://publicdiplomacypressandblogreview.blogspot.com/

http://mountainrunner.us/2008/09/glassman_hardtalk.html

Obama's national security corps was Bush's Civilian Reserve Corps. The idea of hiring professional for a short time is old and never really works because they want money. USAID came out with a Response Corps and other agencies did too; retired feds wanting something short time.

[BobS]

Apologize? Hell, no. I haven't heard anyone say "Rat Bastard" in years. Isn't that a James Cagney expression?

[M. Simon]

Charlie,

I have said that phasing out the subsidy is a good idea. In fact some folks in the wind business think so too.

One of the things holding back larger turbines (where the $$ per KWh is lower) is the subsidy. Why go through a design cycle if the profit opportunities are OK with current sizes?

[BobS]

Nice post too,MSimon. I had no idea that Fannie Mae made grants....and to ACORN?? OMG, Magnum!

[narciso]

So forcing people into service, makes more sense, right. AID does foreign work, maybe you mean VISTA. Of course when you apply Alinsky's organizing principles, Marighela's
urban foco as related by Ayers, Wright's application of black liberation theology, it's not a conforting image.

As for the other matter, I guess Russia, will just acquiesce to this, since they stuck up for 'plucky South Ossetia:href<http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,576962,00.html>

[M. Simon]

Atojh,

Bribery (foreign aid) has been a part of the American foreign policy since the beginning. It has its uses.

[M. Simon]

Bob S,

You notice You got a link in there?

And you quoting Eric at CV. Very self referential. Or recursive as we like to say in programming.

[BobS]

I did..and thank you. That was a pretty good post by Eric.

[Pofarmer]

BTW nuke plants are only 33% efficient.

I think we are thinking of different terms for efficiency. Nuke plants typically have a rating of around 90% up time. If you want cheap power, build nukes, and build breeder reactors to reuse the fuel. Forget this wind and Natural gas.

Why go through a design cycle if the profit opportunities are OK with current sizes?

Probably becuase the 5MW designs being put out now are essentially in Beta testing. I don't think anybody want's to stick their necks out on a bigger one.

Of course residential power is different than commercial, but some rules do apply.

[Ah]

They won't mention that the foreign aid is all passed, it's the US government agencies etc. that haven't been passed:

http://www.usglc.org/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

http://www.csis.org/component/option,com_csis_events/task,view/id,1773/

AIG? Is it BOACIA(China) bailing out Merrill's Asian buyers?

http://proctoringcongress.blogspot.com/2008/01/why-are-united-states-taxpayers-funding.html

[Danube of Thought]

In Jimmy Cagney's day, you couldn't say the word "bastard" in a movie.

My understanding of the problem with wind is that it is inherent in wind-generated electrical power that a grid can only accept 20% of its power from that source. The reason is its irregularity, and the need for the grid to accommodate surges and drops in the power supplied to it. If you get more than 20% on such an erratic basis the grid can't manage it, and there is no technological fix.

I don't understand what is meant by the characterization of a particular energy source as "X% efficient." Going back to my days of studying marine and electrical engineering, I believe such a term would refer to the portion of the potential energy in the source (e.g. BTU's in a given fuel) that was actually delivered to the load, e.g. a propeller. For the purposes we're talking about here, what seems important to me is the dollar cost of generation per unit of energy produced. And I think--but don't know for sure--that nuclear beats everything else all hollow in that regard.

[BobS]

All this stuff is going to be obsolete as soon as the patent for my solunar powered windmill comes through anyway

Me, Rick? I'm holding
out for dilithium crystals (que in Star Trek theme)

[Danube of Thought]

Maybe we could chop down a bunch of forests to burn as fuel to keep the windmills turning. And every so often throw a little ethanol on the flames just to keep things humming along.