I Second That Emotion

John Harris and Diamon Jim Vandehei of The Politico declare last nights production "The worst debate ever":

With the country at one of its most interesting—not to mention terrifying—moments in a generation, John McCain and Barack Obama met in Nashville for what was surely one of the dullest and was definitely the least satisfying presidential debate in memory.

...

But the Belmont University showdown was something entirely different. Place the gravity of the moment next to the blah-blah-blah artifice of the rhetoric and overall insubstantiality of the evening and this is what you get: The worst presidential debate ever.

The day after leaves behind a puzzle: How the hell did candidates manage to be so timid and uninspiring at a time when American troops are in two problematic wars, the world financial markets are in scary free fall and the Dow has lost 1,400 points since Oct. 1? This is a moment history rarely sees – and both men blew it.

It was an odd reversal of the usual optics of power. Ordinarily, the national stage can take even life-size pols like Michael Dukakis and imbue them with an outsized aura.

Tuesday, was a look through the wrong end of the telescope: Men with fascinating biographies looked conventional. The promise both men once offered of a new, less contrived and more creative brand of politics was a distant memory.

I especially endorse this part of their explanation:

• Self-importance.

Both Obama and McCain were once cult-of-personality candidates, running on their inspirational personal biographies and reformist profiles more than on their policy records.

At least in this format, unfortunately, neither of them had especially appealing personalities. The combination of the two, as at the first debate in Mississippi, gave the evening a tense mood that contributed to the feeling of time hanging heavy.

McCain’s contribution to the peevish tone was more obvious, as when he referred to Obama as “that one.”

Obama was, as ever, cooler and more poised. As the younger man—trying to make history as the first African-American president—he surely feels a special imperative to convey calm and reassurance.

He does it so well, however, that he did not do much to convey what he is passionate about. Neither man showed much humor. Self-deprecation seems not to come naturally to either one. The I-love-me quotient has rarely been higher in one of these debates.

It was a stark contrast to the personality and even warmth that both Biden and Palin showed at last week’s St. Louis encounter.

I liked both of these guys a lot better last January.  In fact, I can't recall a previous campaign where my confidence in both candidates fell from January to October.  Quite the contrary - in plenty of earlier races (Reagan '80, Bush '88, Clinton '92, Bush '00) I felt better about the eventual winner as the campaign progressed.  Not this time.

ERRATA:  FWIW, Eight years ago I liked McCain Version 2000, but by October I had become convinced that Bush was not a total maroon, although I still held my breath every time he spoke.  My opinion of Big Al never wavered.

Comments

[bad]

Obama sucks more.

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

Fortunately, after the first half hour I found a 'Law and Order' rerun I hadn't seen before.

[badjane]

We need a big discussion of Obama's previous party affiliations. New Party...

Who was the New Party presidential candidate the year Obama ran as a New Partier?

[Porchlight]

I don't think it's really that much a reflection on the candidates. I blame the faux townhall setup. It was really a podium debate with handheld mikes. It was also reported that it was very cold in the room. All of this plus Brokaw's dull questions resulted in a stiffness and lack of energy that neither candidate was able to overcome.

That said, Biden and Palin in the same setup probably would have performed better.

This election season is just way too long. Familiarity breeds contempt.

[Porchlight]

Yes, Jane, I want to learn more about the New Party as well. After the press's attack on the Palins' supposed involvement with the Alaskan Independence Party, this is fair game, right?

[PDinDetroit]

OT - Did anyone post here about the Palin Email Account hacker? Looks like they finally indicted him...

LUN

[badjane]

Sue posted this on the very long debate thread. Ya wannna read it fer shure

LUN

[Extraneus]

The latest from the Brooks-Noonan wing...

David Brooks: Sarah Palin "Represents A Fatal Cancer To The Republican Party"

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Obama sucks more.

Hard though that might be to imagine.

[Cecil Turner]

I blame the faux townhall setup.

Me, too. The attendees were suffering, and Brokaw was unsufferable. The questions were absurd, and the pandering palpable. No more of these, please.

[Thomas Collins]

I saw a different debate from the one that is the subject of these "boring" and "worse debate" comments. I saw two candidates taking into account that many of the voters whose votes they are seeking are scared and confused about the financial tsunami's impact on their jobs and ability to pay their debts (and many voters themselves may be in foreclosure, or bankruptcy, or close to it, or have friends and relatives in these situations). The understated tone of the debate reflected this. All of these debates involve a substantial amount of each side's talking points. This debate was no different. Also, I'll bet that debate commentators watch a lot of You Tube. Thus, both candidates are probably over-exposed by now.

The best type of debate would be one with a lot of back and forth and just a few questions. But we never see that type of format.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Yes, Jane, I want to learn more about the New Party as well. After the press's attack on the Palins' supposed involvement with the Alaskan Independence Party, this is fair game, right?

One would think.

I'm sure it won't be, though.

Here's an excerpt from Wikipedia on the New Party:

Some of these chapters — such as those in Chicago and Little Rock — had their main bases of support in the low-income community organizing group ACORN, along with some support from various labor unions (especially ACORN-allied locals of the Service Employees International Union). Other chapters — such as those in Minneapolis, Minnesota, Missoula, Montana, Montgomery County, Maryland, and Dane County, Wisconsin, received institutional support from a variety of other labor unions and community organizations. These chapters built local political organizations that ran or endorsed candidates, primarily in local non-partisan races but with occasional forays into Democratic Party primaries or (more rarely) traditional third party-style independent candidacies as well. The party's chapters elected or helped to elect dozens of candidates. Party chapters were also active between elections, pressuring elected officials to pass legislation on issues such as living wages and affordable housing.

Emphasis mine, of course.

[badjane]

So Obama was a New Party member in 1996, supported by Acorn per Wiki, running for office, and also the Chairman of the Board at The Chicago Annenberg Challenge, an educational reform foundation who gave $25,000 to ACORN in 1996.

Gee...

[Charlie (Colorado)]

The one step there I'm not sure of (and I may have just missed something) is the "New Party member" part. I know he got the NP endorsement, but I believe he ran as a D.

[clarice I'm NOT Spartacus]

And running noe he accidentally misnamed the recipient of $800k + in funds from his campaign --the real recipient was ACORN in New Orleans.

[PaulL]

I don't care how respected and how much of a history they have, Gallup is insane having Obama at +11. While in the same time period the other extreme is Hotline/FD at Obama +1. Come on, this kind of range is beyond screwy.

[bgates]

Extraneus, looks like they'll keep their cocktail party invitations coming for another few years.

Brooks was impressed by Obama's knowledge of Reinhold Niebuhr's philosophy - "the idea that you have to use power while it corrupts you." To me, that idea says that Obama has been using power for long enough.

[clarice I'm NOT Spartacus]

I think there are too many unknowns this time around for the polls to be very accurate, frankly. And I think some considerations--Bradley effect for one,urban vote fraud for another--are things the pollsters feel they dare not account for ..

[PDinDetroit]

I believe that they will have to name a new effect for the "PUMAS" out there who will vote for McCain...

[fdcol63]

Charlie,

I think you might have missed this part:

http://web.archive.org/web/20010306031216/www.newparty.org/up9610.html

"On Tuesday, I discovered a web page that had been scrubbed from the New Party's website. The web page which was published in October 1996, was an internet newsletter update on that years congressional races. Although the web page was deleted from the New Party's website, the non-profit Internet Archive Organization had archived the page."

"From the October 1996 Update of the DSA 'New Party':
"New Party members are busy knocking on doors, hammering down lawn signs, and phoning voters to support NP candidates this fall. Here are some of our key races..."

"Illinois: Three NP-members won Democratic primaries last Spring and face off against Republican opponents on election day: Danny Davis (U.S. House), Barack Obama (State Senate) and Patricia Martin (Cook County Judiciary)."

[fdcol63]

Charlie,

Also see:

http://www.chicagodsa.org/ngarchive/ng47.html

"New Party Update"

"by Bruce Bentley"

"The Chicago New Party is increasely becoming a viable political organization that can make a different in Chicago politics. It is crucial for a political organization to have a solid infrastructure and visible results in its political program. The New Party has continued to solidify this base."

"First, in relation to its infrastructure, the NP's membership has increased since January '95 from 225 to 440. National membership has increased from 5700 in December '95 to 7000. Currently the NP's fiscal balance is $7,000 and receives an average of $450/month is sustainer donations."

"Secondly, the NP's '96 Political Program has been enormously successful with 3 of 4 endorsed candidates winning electoral primaries. All four candidates attended the NP membership meeting on April 11th to express their gratitude. Danny Davis, winner in the 7th Congressional District, invited NPers to join his Campaign Steering Committee. Patricia Martin, who won the race for Judge in 7th Subcircuit Court, explained that due to the NP she was able to network and get experienced advice from progressives like Davis. Barack Obama, victor in the 13th State Senate District, encouraged NPers to join in his task forces on Voter Education and Voter Registration. The lone loser was Willie Delgado, in the 3rd Illinois House District. Although Delgado received 45% of the vote, he lost by only 800 votes. Delgado commented that it was due to the NP volunteers that he carried the 32nd Ward. Delgado emphasized that he will remain a visible community activist in Humbolt Park. He will conduct four Immigration workshops and encouraged NP activists to get involved."

"The Chicago NP will hire a second organizer and an intern, preferably Spanish speaking, to work in the 35th Ward. Upcoming events include a 70's Retro Dance Party on Friday, July 12th, and Post Labor Day Picnic on September 7th."

[fdcol63]

Although, I don't think the 2nd quote I provided is as explicit as the first one.

[MayBee]

I don't think it's really that much a reflection on the candidates. I blame the faux townhall setup.

Oh, I agree with every word you said.
It was also so awkward to watch the two men have to turn their backs to the audience to get back to their seats, or to face another section.

[Extraneus]

Uh oh.

McCain rally speaker refers to Obama's middle name

[kim]

Paglia on Palin at Salon is good again: 'Nobody's Dummy'.
==================================

[Charlie (Colorado)]

McCain rally speaker refers to Obama's middle name

Okay, Biden and Obama get one free pass each to call McCain "Sidney".

[Charlie (Colorado)]

I think you might have missed this part: ...

Maybe, but I want to see his registration and election information. Same as with Palin and the AIP: if he wasn't registered to the New Party, but was registered as a Democrat, and ran having been nominated by the Democrats, we pretty well have to accept he's a Democrat.

[fdcol63]

I agree. If Obama was indeed a NP member, it looks like it may have been an attempt to secure more votes with the "fusion" strategy.

[PeterUK]

"if he wasn't registered to the New Party, but was registered as a Democrat, and ran having been nominated by the Democrats, we pretty well have to accept he's a Democrat."

Of course he might be a New Party member in duck's clothing.

[badjane]

Okay, Biden and Obama get one free pass each to call McCain "Sidney".

Thay an call him "Sidney" all the time if they wish. What is so awful about someone's middle name? Good grief, President Bush is called "Chimpy McHitler." Hussein is the dude's middle name. He needs to get over it or change the damn thing.

[PeterUK]

Can't think of a Sydney, off hand,who was hanged as mass murdering dictator.

[Jim Ryan]

Can't think of a Sydney, off hand,who was hanged as mass murdering dictator.

Wasn't Sydney Mussolini lynched?

[fdcol63]

The fusion strategy relied on dual party membership and cross-endorsements. Perhaps Obama was a member of both the Dems and NP?

Seems likely. In this case, what would it mean if true?

[PeterUK]

"Wasn't Sydney Mussolini lynched?"

No, you are thinking of his cousin Mervin,the stockbroker.

[badjane]

Dan Rather says journalistic integrity is the beating heart of ......

[PeterUK]

"The fusion strategy relied on dual party membership and cross-endorsements. Perhaps Obama was a member of both the Dems and NP?"

This is very similar to the Trotsyist Militant tendency which penetrated the "British" Labour Party.It was supposedly purged,probably because the Labour party is extreme enough,Militant was giving it a bad name.

[sylvia]

I agree, that debate was D-U-L-L. They need to have a longer time to answer the questions, and fewer topics, because all you get now is dueling campaign soundbites. But neither campaign will agree to that because they like the soundbite strategy- less room for mistakes. And Palin/Biden was much better. Maybe they should be the Pres candidates instead - maybe next time they will. I'm still looking for the candidates to explain their ideas in detail, like healthcare, but after two years, I still haven't heard it.

[Elliott]

OT--Via liberal friend, leftist proparody. Only worth watching to delight subversively in the fact that the McCain puppet/animation looks more like John Murtha.

[sylvia]

Obama didn't realy look that scary, and it's easy to forget his shady associations when you see him talk, and then you think, well he can't be that bad. But on the other hand, Ted Bundy was a charmer, heck people thought Chavez was a charmer at first, and many still do. I'm not saying BHO is as bad as those guys, all I'm saying is you have to remember that appearances can be deceptive.

[matt]

Shortly after the election, the Democratic Party will be purged of all "capitalist roaders" and Bourgeoisie. Running dog lackies of the imperialist aggressors will be next, after which they will re-educate all revisionist parasites....we will then all be forced to sing "I'm a Happy Obamacrat" while wearing baby blue T shirts with the words "Spare Change" and a eagley/rainbowy type thingy type of logo....

[matt]

Sylvia;

Cesar Chavez was a nice man.....Hugo, not so nice....

[badjane]

Allah at Hotair is talking about Obama and the New Party.

LUN

[Dave]

President Bush is called "Chimpy McHitler."

Yes, the President-as-ape theme has been such fun over the past 8 years, what say we continue it for the next 4? Why not?

[Elliott]

Pretty funny of Obama to complain that McCain is stealing his line about change in light of what a guy who lives in Obama's neighborhood, who's a professor of English in Chicago had to say in 1988:

Change, in fact, is hard work. The status quo, with its acknowledged weakness, is the situation we have come to know and learned to live with. In a sense we all embrace the illnesses and limitations we have, and change, while it opens to possibility, also steps into the unknown and in that way suggests chaos.¹

________________________

¹Ayers, W. (1988). Problems and possibilities of radical reform: A teacher educator reflects on making change. Peabody Journal of Education, 65(2), 35-50. Quoted in Minnici, A. (2006). Dimensions Of Reflexive Thinking in Social Foundations Pedagogy: Complicating Student Responses for Theoretic Understanding. University of Pittsburgh, p. 139. Accessed today.

[Rick Ballard]

"what say we continue it for the next 4? Why not?"

Nah. 'Red Hussein' or 'Hussein the Red' would be better. The progs never, ever provide anything of value. Why bother with their silliness?

[Neo]

We cannot allow Iran to get a nuclear weapon. It would be a game-changer in the region. Not only would it threaten Israel, our strongest ally in the region and one of our strongest allies in the world, but it would also create a possibility of nuclear weapons falling into the hands of terrorists. And so it’s unacceptable. And I will do everything that’s required to prevent it. And we will never take military options off the table. And it is important that we don’t provide veto power to the United Nations or anyone else in acting in our interests. -- Barack Obama 7-Oct-2008

If you replace Iran with Iraq, you can see George Bush saying this exact same thing some 6 or so years ago. If nothing else, this quote destroys the myth that President Bush is a warmonger (any more than Barack Obama is).

[bgates]

Dave - you mean if Obama wins? That's just silly. Why, the man has a professional degree from Harvard!

[badjane]

what say we continue it for the next 4?

It would be (wait for it) racist. ta dah

[bgates]

Neo - it would be fun to make that change and post it in some lefty hangouts to see how long it took them to catch on.

[Jim Ryan]

All,

I have two links on the Troll for Good News thread. Any debunkery/confirmery of these tidbits much appreciated.

[fdcol63]

Leftys and Obama can't even understand the difference between using force against a country belligerent, state-sponsor of terrorism like Iraq - with its history of UN resolutions, failure to comply with its obligations as a result of losing a previous war, and countless hostile actions against our own military enforcing those obligations - and using military force for "moral" and "humanitarian" reasons.

[Jim Miller]

On last night's debate: I have come to despise these "debates" because I think they are a really
stupid way to evaluate presidential candidates.

So I didn't watch, and only listened to a bit of last night's debate.

[Ralphane L]

Fortunately, after the first half hour I found a 'Law and Order' rerun I hadn't seen before.
Posted by: Patrick R. Sullivan
Thankfully, I found it in 30 seconds.
I heard McCain said the last president to raise taxes during a recession was Hoover--of course, it was actually FDR, the teflon president.

[bunkyIammaximus]

There is going to be a big dance at the family circle.

[centralcal]

At work - haven't read the thread - but apparently Dean Reynolds of CBS has a great piece on the disorganized O campaign and says his airplain stinks (as in smells really bad).

LUN

[pagar]

Jim Ryan, I put a note up on your posts on the Corsi affair on the other thread.

[Odius Maximus]

"his airplain stinks (as in smells really bad)".

It's the sacrificial goats,that and lighting fires in the aisle for cooking.

[bad]

"his airplain stinks (as in smells really bad)".

Its all those high hogs they're living on.

[Odius Maximus]

"Its all those high hogs they're living on."

Yes but what are the hogs on?

[Mustang0302]

Both Obama and McCain were once cult-of-personality candidates, running on their inspirational personal biographies and reformist profiles more than on their policy records.

BHO "reformist"?

JSMc "cult-of-personality"?

"...inspirational personal biographies...":
- JSMc, yes. BHO, no...not at all. Well-concealed, contrived personal biography, maybe.

Am I alone in not endorsing these views?

[Odius Maximus]

"BHO, no...not at all. Well-concealed, contrived personal biography, maybe."

"The Audacity of Dope" bro!

[jorod]

Obama wants to create 5 million jobs by subsidizing alternative fuels(No one knows where he gets these numbers). McCain should have said that he can create 10 million jobs by letting the oil companies drill and it won't cost the taxpayers a nickel.

When Obama attacked tax cuts for oil companies, McCain also should have said that Exxon Mobil paid $30 billion in income taxes last year, not including payroll taxes, and they employ over 80,000 people. They paid taxes equal to 1% of the Federal budget. That an oil pipeline like the one they are bulding in Alaska costs $40 billion.

When Obama says that earmarks are only $18 billion if we cut them, McCain should have pointed out the at Obama wants to spend $15 billion on alternative fuels and wants to invade Pakistan and Darfur, so where's the savings?

Obama says we can keep private medical insurance. But once the government gets involved in a business, it crowds out all competition. Government insurance spells the doom of private insurance. The government will also try to dictate prices rather than letting the market set prices. This will cause shortages and result in hoarding of medical supplies. In some parts of the old Soviet Union, some clinics didn't even have thread for stitches. If you want to see how it works, go to Cook County Hospital in Obama's Chicago. See how the Democrats load up the bureaucracy with their friends and relatives.

Obama plans the same health care as government employees for 46 million uninsured people and will cost $12,000 per household at today's market prices. That's about $550 billion. Who's going to pay for that? He didn't mention that. Of course, McCain was too stupid to call him out on that.

Medicare doesn't process claim forms for now. That's done by private insurance companies and doctors' offices. The claims are submitted to medicare for payment. When medicare starts processing its own claims, it will have to hire millions of people for that purpose.

Everyone knows that you don't raise taxes during a recession. If Obama wants to raise taxes in a recession, either he doesn't believe we are in a recession or he is an idiot. Either way, it's bad for the US.

Obama came across as a 1960s retread. McCain tried not to lose but doesn't understand the basic issues.

[kim]

Isn't there a Right to Privacy to keep the government out of personal decisions about my own body?
===================================

[Rocco]

Yes kim there is was. Our founders were heavily influenced by Locke's theories on individualism. Matter of fact, they believed it all starts with the right to own yourself. In other words we have a property right in our own person and if that inalienable right was endowed by our creator, it comes from a power greater than government, hence government couldn't take it away.

Locke's Second Treatise on Government

[E]very man has a property in his own person. This nobody has any right to but himself. The labour of his body and the work of his hands, we may say, are properly his. Whatsoever then he removes out of the state that nature hath provided, and left it in, he hath mixed his labour with, and joined to it something that is his own, and thereby makes it his property. It being by him removed from the common state nature placed it in, it hath by this labour something annexed to it that excludes the common right of other men. For this labour being the unquestionable property of the labourer, no man but he can have a right to what that is once joined to. . . .

Murray Rothbard's The Ethics of Liberty

[sbw]

Just suffered through the article on David Brooks.

I'm still trying to find something in it that is based on, oh, I don't know,... a fact.

[clarice]

SBW, I am persuaded that whenever the NYT hires its token conservative they house him in the secret suck your brains out corner office.

[kim]

Well, thanks, Rocco; that was excellent.
==============================

[Rocco]

You're welcome

[bad]

Odious Maximus

Yer hot..

[Dave]

His campaign plane stinks?

That's what happens when a planeload of donks simultaneously cut an air biscuit when they saw an actual mention of Billy Ayers in a MSM outlet.

Speaking of Obama and planes, any truth to the rumor that I'm just making up as I type that after 1/20/09 the Presidential plane will be called "Air Force That One"?