Post Debate Wrap

That last thread is way past unwieldy so here is a new one.

And let the record be clear - I love the smell of Gateway Pundit in the morning.

Here is a debate transcript and lots of follow-up at the InstaPundit.

I had queried this by Biden:

BIDEN: I'll talk about both. With Afghanistan, facts matter, Gwen.

The fact is that our commanding general in Afghanistan said today that a surge -- the surge principles used in Iraq will not -- well, let me say this again now -- our commanding general in Afghanistan said the surge principle in Iraq will not work in Afghanistan, not Joe Biden, our commanding general in Afghanistan.

He said we need more troops. We need government-building. We need to spend more money on the infrastructure in Afghanistan.

Look, we have spent more money -- we spend more money in three weeks on combat in Iraq than we spent on the entirety of the last seven years that we have been in Afghanistan building that country.

Let me say that again. Three weeks in Iraq; seven years, seven years or six-and-a-half years in Afghanistan. Now, that's number one.

A bit later Biden re-emphasized this (the transcript attributes the remarks to Palin but the context is clear:

Barack Obama was saying we need more troops there. Again, we spend in three weeks on combat missions in Iraq, more than we spent in the entire time we have been in Afghanistan. That will change in a Barack Obama administration.

Number one makes no sense, per this debunking:

Biden is telling absurd lies about Afghanistan tonight.  In particular, he's repeatedly claimed that "we've spent less in Afghanistan in seven years than we spend in a month in Iraq."

He's made that claim, or claims to that effect, repeatedly.  It is, to put it bluntly, a complete Goddamned lie.

According to the Congressional Research Service, spending on the war in Afghanistan since 2001 has been $172 Billion.  Spending in Iraq is, as the Democrats repeatedly mention, a little under $10 Billion a month.

In other words, Biden's number is off by, oh, something like 2000%. Perhaps Obama's Sub-Committee ought to have held some hearings on Afghanistan after all.

Now, to be fair - read carefully, Biden may have been trying to communicate the notion that we spend more on combat in Iraq in three weeks than we have spent *on infrastructure projects* in Afghanistan over the last six and a half years.  That interpretation hinges on whether our combat-related expenditures to liberate and police the country are counted as "building" it, but he had mentioned infrastructure projects in discussing the non-relevance of a surge in Afghanistan. (I disputed that, too - see below).

So maybe Biden gets a break from the transcript on the spending question.  Maybe.  But it sure sounded goofy last night, and still looks goofy this morning.  And his re-emphasis lost all nuance, so his defenders don't have much to work with.

As to whether a surge will or will not work in Afghanistan, per these two stories, Gen. McKiernan wants both more troops and more of a political/infrastructure effort:

McKiernan said he validated McNeill’s earlier recommendation that three more ground brigade combat teams, amounting to more than 10,000 troops, are needed in Afghanistan. Deployment of these additional troops, he said, would include helicopters, as well as intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance assets, and logistics and transportation elements.

Upon McKiernan’s recommendation, another brigade-sized unit, the 10th Mountain Division’s 3rd Brigade Combat Team, was just approved for deployment to Regional Command East in Afghanistan in January.

“So, if you wanted to total those up, you could say it’s four brigade combat teams, with enablers, that are pending deployment to Afghanistan, McKiernan said.

A request for added U.S. military trainers to instruct Afghan soldiers and police is being reviewed, McKiernan said, because it’s believed that such personnel should be trained to conduct counterinsurgency missions as well.

“What we need is additional military capabilities to provide security for the people in Afghanistan,” McKiernan said, “and until we get to what I call a ‘tipping point,’ where the lead for security can be in the hands of the Afghan army and the Afghan police, there’s going to be a need for the international community to provide military capability.”

However, defeating insurgents in Afghanistan “is not just a question of more soldiers,” McKiernan said. Achieving peace and stability in Afghanistan, he said, also will require more governance, increased economic aid, and more political assistance for the Afghan government, as well as military assistance. And any reconciliation effort targeting present-day insurgents needs to be an Afghan-government led endeavor, McKiernan said.

“As a military officer, I’ve said that, ultimately, the solution in Afghanistan is going to be a political solution, not a military solution,” McKiernan said.

Biden did state that the General wanted more troops.  As to Biden's assertion that the General said the surge principal won't work, I imagine that depends on how one defines the surge principle.  But I am not finding support for Biden on that point here.

However, I can rely on some lefty bloggers!  David Kurtz at TPM digs up the key quote in the WaPo:

"The word I don't use for Afghanistan is 'surge,' " McKiernan stressed, saying that what is required is a "sustained commitment" to a counterinsurgency effort that could last many years and would ultimately require a political, not military, solution.

Oh, for heaven's sake - if the concept of "surge" principles is limited to a quick in and out of troops, well, sure, the General says that won't work in Afghanistan because the effort must be sustained.  But "the surge" was never just about a quick influx of more troops.  The rest of the surge included clear and hold tactics and close cooperation with locals inclined to ally with us.  The general is not disputing the likely efficacy of that approach; he is noting that those principles will need to be applied differently in Afghanistan.  Here is the WaPo on recruiting local allies:

Tribal engagement in Afghanistan is also vital, McKiernan said, but it must be carried out through the Afghan government and not by the U.S. military.

"I don't want the military to be engaging the tribes," he said. Given Afghanistan's complicated system of rival tribes and ethnic groups and the recent history of civil war, allying with the wrong tribe risks rekindling internecine conflict, he said. "It wouldn't take much to go back to a civil war."

Kurtz scores that exchange for Biden, as he would.  But here is what Palin said:

PALIN: Well, first, McClellan did not say definitively the surge principles would not work in Afghanistan. Certainly, accounting for different conditions in that different country and conditions are certainly different. We have NATO allies helping us for one and even the geographic differences are huge but the counterinsurgency principles could work in Afghanistan. McClellan didn't say anything opposite of that. The counterinsurgency strategy going into Afghanistan, clearing, holding, rebuilding, the civil society and the infrastructure can work in Afghanistan. And those leaders who are over there, who have also been advising George Bush on this have not said anything different but that.

It would have been nice if she had gotten the General's name right (Biden was smart enough not to attempt it.)  However, I would say she was at least as knowledgeable on this topic as Biden and way ahead of me.  And since the General is not saying that the surge principles can't work as long as they are correctly applied and sustained, I say Biden belly-flopped.

RIGHT THE SECOND TIME: Speaking of lefties, Joan Walsh of Salon is amusing:

The symbolic moment Palin flubbed was subjective, of course. But I instant-messaged a friend that she lost the debate when Biden choked up over losing his wife and child in a car accident in which his sons were critically injured -- and she went straight back into "John McCain is a maverick." I truly expected her to express human sympathy with Biden, and her failure to do so showed me something deeply wrong with her. But maybe that's just me.

Uh huh.  In an alternative reality Palin graciously refrained from calling attention to Biden's choke-up and simply moved on.  Gee, I have never seen that happen in real life, other than just about every day.  But in Walsh world it wasn't just a Palin fax pas - it revealed "something deeply wrong with her" and cost her the debate.  Please.

MAPMAKER, MAPMAKER MAKE ME A MAP:  Where in the world is Joe Biden with this:

BIDEN: Gwen, no one in the United States Senate has been a better friend to Israel than Joe Biden. I would have never, ever joined this ticket were I not absolutely sure Barack Obama shared my passion.

But you asked a question about whether or not this administration's policy had made sense or something to that effect. It has been an abject failure, this administration's policy.

In fairness to Secretary Rice, she's trying to turn it around now in the seventh or eighth year.

Here's what the president said when we said no. He insisted on elections on the West Bank, when I said, and others said, and Barack Obama said, "Big mistake. Hamas will win. You'll legitimize them." What happened? Hamas won.

When we kicked -- along with France, we kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon, I said and Barack said, "Move NATO forces in there. Fill the vacuum, because if you don't know -- if you don't, Hezbollah will control it."

Now what's happened? Hezbollah is a legitimate part of the government in the country immediately to the north of Israel.

France and the US kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon?  Huh?  Might he have meant Syria out of Lebanon a few years back?  [Yes, he must have - this July 2006 Biden op-ed outlines his views.]

Comments

[bubarooni]

1026 comments? is that some kind of record?

[pagar]

Here's a great listing of why Palin with McCain is a winning ticket.

"POLITICS: The Integrity Gap, Part I of III: Gov. Sarah Palin"

"In the two tickets on this issue - an Integrity Gap that Obama simply can't surmount and can only hope to obscure. If you look at the record of the McCain-Palin ticket and compare it to the Obama-Biden record in this regard, it really is no contest."

Plus the article comes from a baseball site.

[Jim]

To your original question: patronizing boor.

[SunnyDay]

From Ace - he's guessing. Hope he is right. LUN

McCain Holding Back on Fannie and Freddie? Um... Wait For It

No confirmation on this, no tip, no hint.

But I know what he's doing.

John McCain is waiting until the bill passes.

And then he will unleash the dogs of war.

[Extraneus]

Here's a link to the debate transcript.

I think maybe my favorite moment was toward the end, knowing how she had already trounced Biden and the liberal hoards with such aplomb, to think about TM's lady friends from Connecticut while Sarah talked about zero-based budgeting.

IFILL: Final question tonight, before your closing statements, starting with you, Senator Biden. Can you think of a single issue -- and this is to cast light for people who are just trying to get to know you in your final debate, your only debate of this year -- can you think of a single issue, policy issue, in which you were forced to change a long-held view in order to accommodate changed circumstances?

BIDEN: Yes, I can. When I got to the United States Senate and went on the Judiciary Committee as a young lawyer, I was of the view and had been trained in the view that the only thing that mattered was whether or not a nominee appointed, suggested by the president had a judicial temperament, had not committed a crime of moral turpitude, and was -- had been a good student.

And it didn't take me long -- it was hard to change, but it didn't take me long, but it took about five years for me to realize that the ideology of that judge makes a big difference.

That's why I led the fight against Judge Bork. Had he been on the court, I suspect there would be a lot of changes that I don't like and the American people wouldn't like, including everything from Roe v. Wade to issues relating to civil rights and civil liberties.

And so that -- that -- that was one of the intellectual changes that took place in my career as I got a close look at it. And that's why I was the first chairman of the Judiciary Committee to forthrightly state that it matters what your judicial philosophy is. The American people have a right to understand it and to know it.

But I did change on that, and -- and I'm glad I did.

IFILL: Governor?

PALIN: There have been times where, as mayor and governor, we have passed budgets that I did not veto and that I think could be considered as something that I quasi-caved in, if you will, but knowing that it was the right thing to do in order to progress the agenda for that year and to work with the legislative body, that body that actually holds the purse strings.

So there were times when I wanted to zero-base budget, and to cut taxes even more, and I didn't have enough support in order to accomplish that.

But on the major principle things, no, there hasn't been something that I've had to compromise on, because we've always seemed to find a way to work together.

What a great follow to Biden's admission that he's been a committed ideologue on judicial selections for over 30 years.

[Rick Ballard]

SD,

Ace is right on the money. The bill will pass very easily today and the key to the Rep side will be to get enough changed votes to negate any claim by the Great Black Hope that his successful entreaties to the CBC were the victory margin. I'm hoping for at least 30 more Rep votes but I'd settle for 15.

Once it's passed there's no reason for McCain to hold back as to the Dems being right at the center of the mess with the FMs. Hopefully he'll better at it than O'Reilly did Frank.

[Porchlight]

I saw that at Ace's too, SunnyDay. I hope and pray he's right.

[Sue]

I think it was Sara on the other thread that linked to http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/>Gateway Pundit. If you didn't click on her link, please, please go look at the pictures. Especially the one at the Biden after-debate party!!!! Sarah Palin is absolutely beautiful, as you will notice in the very first picture.

[ex-democrat]

Guys: can you imagine how proud Sarah's dad must be of her this morning??

[SWarren]

SunnyDay,
And then he will unleash the dogs of war.

I remember reading something a couple weeks back, from a McCain insider that he was going to 'unleash'. He gave a specific date which I don't remember. I think it was about the third week in October and I thought why wait so long?

[SunnyDay]

That makes sense, Rick. I've been waiting, and wondering what's wrong. If they will just fight back, bypass MSM and go directly to the people, it will register.

[Neo]

Concerning the "bailout ...

The increase from $100,000 to $250,000 was supposed to cover small businesses that could easily have more than $100,000 in the bank.

What I am puzzled about though is that, going back the S&L crisis, I seem to remember that the FDIC insurance was for individuals, not businesses.

Single Accounts (owned by one person): $100,000 per owner Joint Accounts (two or more persons): $100,000 per co-owner

The FDIC web site is incredibly vague stating that these are the "the most common ownership categories"

If my memory serves me correctly then, the new $250,000 limit would then only act as a safe haven for individuals cashing out of the stock and money markets, which is exactly what the government should be trying to avoid.

[Neo]

If you look at page 180 of the 451-page monster bailout bill that easily passed the Senate yesterday (PDF here), you will see that it includes at Section 116 language about the tax treatment of “industrial source carbon dioxide.” It also provides, at Section 117, for a “carbon audit of the tax code.”

[matt]

excellent job by Palin. Poor job by Biden, but that may be my bias talking. I thought she more than acquited herself while Biden came up with lots of quasi statistics and blamed the republicans for everything. He just didn't sound credible. Both of them were very good at turing a question into a statement on something else they wanted to get across.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Neo, most small businesses are sole proprietorships or partnerships, where it's the people who hold the account, not a corporation.

[ben]

I hate the bailout plan but I dislike Obama even more and I think this thing has become a "distraction" to quote the ONE. So I am willing to bite the bullet so McCain can be free to wallop Obama on Freddie Mae and other stuff.

[Jane]

John McCain is waiting until the bill passes.

And then he will unleash the dogs of war.

Hey! That's what I've been saying. But DO NOT put is past Pelosi, to make sure the bill doesn't pass for just that reason.

[ben]

Freddie Mae? hmmm...

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Folks, look --- we've gone through a bunch of hysterical rabble-rousing in the last ten days, most of it by people who can't or won't understand the details of what happened and why.

Before we go off on the Evil Things Loaded Into The Bill, remember that the rescue plan is attached, for technical reasons, to a "technical adjustments" bill that had already passed the Senate 92-3. That included things like removing the 39 cent excise tax for hunting arrows from 30 cent wooden arrows for kids' archery sets.

Don't let yourselves be demagogued about this. Complain about anything added afterward as sweeteners if you like, but remember that the Senate, for Constitutional reasons, couldn't originate this bill, and had to attach it to a bill that they'd already passed.

[Jane]

I am willing to bite the bullet so McCain can be free to wallop Obama on Freddie Mae and other stuff.

I fee the same way. WHich I guess makes me absurdly political.

BTW in MA Deval Patrick is struggling with the budget. He instructed all the parts of the government which make money to reduce their budget by 7%. He of course, doubled his budget. I suspect he wants new drapes.

[clarice]

My long awaited McCain/Palin yard sign finally arrived. As I live in a neighborhood full of do gooders and ACLU members I had to post it on an inside window or know that it would be stolen as happened in the last election.
Sarah was fantastico--I said last night and Roger L Simon said the same thing--her performance last night wiped out the press which had tried so hard to tank her.

She understood the purpose of these debates:It is not to soothe the press corps and pundits with familiar arguments and statistics--it is to sell yourself to the voters. And that she did full well.

[Rick Ballard]

"I thought why wait so long?"

SWarren,

I'm no fan of military analogies to political campaigns because winning an election is not necessarily determined in the manner in which a battle is decided. A better analogy might be a 15 round title fight where the deciding judges show up as the bell opening the 15th round rings. The fight cannot be decided by knockout or TKO, it can only be decided by the evaluation of those judges. In many cases they don't know the rules of the sport nor will they bother to learn them as they watch the final round. Many won't even pay close attention until the final minute.

We're in the final round now and McCain understands how the decision will be and by whom. As much as I dislike the man, I cannot fault his approach to winning and I sincerely doubt that he will err in the timing of the final blows.

As to the "third week" - isn't that when the DUI was "discovered" in 2000? The election in which George Bush did not win the popular vote?

[Rick Ballard]

'will be made and'

I have to buy a new computer. The timing chain on this one is busted.

[Porchlight]

If you haven't checked out the rally photos at Gateway Pundit (see TM's link above), do. Very cheering (literally).

You can see in one photo that Sarah is wearing what looks like a KIA bracelet. Also I notice that she just has a plain gold wedding band on her ring finger - nothing fancy.

[Porchlight]

Oh, and don't miss this photo of the delicious misery in the press section.

[Enlightened]

Morning all~Congratulations to Sarah Palin! I was so nervous but after her first answer I knew she was just playing possum prior to last night.

Oh boy - I bet Mrs. The One is shooting daggers right about now. How dare this woman, mother of five kids, one a special needs kid, a son in Iraq, a real man for a husband, college graduate of non-ivy league school, popular governor, ex mayor, ex city council, community organizer, fiesty, with an obvious love of country and zest for life - pop on the scene and steal The One's mojo.

Just another notch in the Angry Belt.

[DebinNC]

ACORN at work in IN: Lake County elections officials acknowledged they have found problems and had to reject a large portion of the 5,000 registration forms turned in recently by the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, or ACORN, an activist group that conducted registration drives across the county this summer.

[Ranger]

As to the "third week" - isn't that when the DUI was "discovered" in 2000? The election in which George Bush did not win the popular vote?

Posted by: Rick Ballard | October 03, 2008 at 10:17 AM

As I recall, the DUI was dropped on the thursday or friday before the election. It was meant to be the last key piece of info the undecideds got before going into the polling booth. It is an old Dem trick.

[bio mom]

Thank you Charlie. I did not realize that.

[Enlightened]

Heh. Tina Fey said something to the effect that she hopes she can stop playing Palin after election day?

I think she can stop now since I do believe it's above Fey's pay grade to play the straight man.

I said to my husband last night - Since the MSM and their astrobots have tried to destroy this woman because she wowed everyone at the convention - if she did good at the debate they would be in big trouble because all the dumpster vetting they've been doing has backfired, they valiantly tried the gotcha game and with some clever editing and parsing almost suceeded - but now they have nothing. The dumpsters are empty, Katie Couric in all her glorious belaboring of points once again failed to generate an audience share, The Spew vortex is still missing on all cylinders, MSNBC is still a fetid breeding ground of morons.

And then Sarah Palin debated Botox Biden and garnered an audience share triple what all the above shows garner - combined.

Involuntary liberal bed wetting has commenced.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Someone asked if McCain would have new ads based on the debate.

Looks like.

[PeterUK]

The real Barack Hussein Obama.

[Barry Dauphin]

Speaking of not knowing names, I could have sworn I heard Gwen Ifill refer to the Republican VP candidate as "Debra Palin", although I wasn't listening carefull at the time. Did I hear that right or am I just getting old (well, it could be both).

[Ranger]

When we kicked -- along with France, we kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon, I said and Barack said, "Move NATO forces in there. Fill the vacuum, because if you don't know -- if you don't, Hezbollah will control it."

Where to begin with this one... Besides the fact that we never "kicked Hezbollah out" maybe someone should point out to Joe that the UN sent in a huge number of NATO troops (Spanish and French) to beef up UNIFIL. The problems isn't the number of troops, or where they come from, it is the mandate they operate under.

[clarice]

Deb, in Milwaukee it was learned ACORN had hired felons in violation of state law and the Milwaukee officials in charge claimed not to know that law applied to felons not on probation or parole.
The Dems are getting a run for their money--In a better world ACORN's consistent flouting of state election laws would get them in criminal court.

[Enlightened]

Krauthammer officially in the tank for The One. Link at Hot Air.

[clarice]

OT:
Did you notice? Wachovia turned down the federal bailout and worked out a deal with CITI?
(WSJ)

[Rick Ballard]

Clarice,

Wachovia worked out a much better deal with Wells Fargo. Citi had the fed backed thievery going and was stymied. Wachovia successfully avoided the Citi kiss of death.

What should the feds demand in exchange for the California bailout? I vote for abrogation of all state employee union contracts with an immediate freeze on hiring, pay and pension increases.

As a start.

[Barney Frank]

Krauthammer officially in the tank for The One.

Krauthammer, like most psychiatrists, is a very smart man who is also a bit of a mess and ought to be under his own care. When has he ever not sounded depressed and fearing the worst?
Eeyore could take his correspondence course.

[clarice]

Sorry, Rick--I was distracted and misstyped..Wachovia did work it out with Wells Fargo.I thought it showed how little the Fed plan had to commend it.

You're reight about Calif--though the same thing might be said of the MI auto bailout--in both cases,a significant part of the mess was as a result of caving into unreasonable union demands..

[Thomas Collins]

Oh, if only McCain, in the townhall debate, can bait Zero to continue the Delaware Joe-Caribou Sarah back and forth on who has really stepped up to support the troops. Palin did a great job of putting that issue on the table, and a new McCain ad I saw this morning continues the baiting. But I don't think Zero will take the bait (he's not great thinking on his feet, but I don't think he's so stupid as to take on McCain on this issue). But I always have hope.

[clarice]

I think the post-debate McCain video isn't so hot--I'd do one on Biden and Lebanon--short, sweet and devastating.

[ben]

Survey USA...McCain ahead in Minnesota 47-46...

[Barney Frank]

As a start.

And then the public hanging of our legislature, state officers, supreme court and governor.

As a finish.

[SWarren]

Rick
We're in the final round now and McCain understands how the decision will be and by whom. As much as I dislike the man, I cannot fault his approach to winning and I sincerely doubt that he will err in the timing of the final blows.

Thanks Rick. As usual an insightful, perfect analogy.
So many voters don't really focus until that final round. In that light, what has Axelrod got up his sleeve for that round? Seems they've already been throwing everything but the kitchen sink.

[Gabriel Sutherland]

What should the feds demand in exchange for the California bailout?

Oh my. I don't think the supporters of the bailout realize what power they are handing to Executive branch.

Do we actually want the Feds using a line by line veto of existing state law to qualify the state for a credit line?

[Barbara]

Charles Krauthammer claims that Obama has,"both a first-class intellect and a first-class temperament. That will likely be enough to make him president." (See Hot Air - LUN)

I've yet to see evidence of even a modicum of the intellect or the temperament that might qualify Obama for such a high office. So, I have to question why Krauthammer would make such a statement.

Dr. K., you have really disappointed me, I am sorry to say. With your background, I would have hoped that you could see through the thin veneer of the carefully managed Obama. He is temperamental, mean-spirited, and intellectually lazy. In addition, he comes from a dubious and dangerous background, and is unqualified by any measure for the highest office in this country.

After Governor Palin's stellar debate performance last night, you had a chance to say the right thing. You chose not to do that, but instead held on to your "east coast, elitist" mantle like a security blanket. I was sorry to see that.

[Sue]

I don't think McCain is going to go after the democrats now or later on FM/FM. If he does, I'll be the most surprised of anyone. It takes a while for things to get into the pschy of the public. 4 weeks away. Without MSM help. McCain isn't going there. IMO.

[DebinNC]

Tom updated his OP, noting lefty criticism of Palin for not saying, "There, there" when Biden teared up at the memory of his wife's death. He's done the same thing on camera several times lately, making one wonder if he uses that painful memory and his response to it as a campaign tactic.

And I don't think he's ever apologized to the family of the man he falsely accused of "drinking his lunch" before hitting his wife's car. The sad fact is that Mrs. Biden pulled out into oncoming traffic, and the unfortunate driver could not avoid hitting her. Shame of Biden for smearing this innocent man!

[Elliott]

Porchlight,

I am trying to find out whether Obama has ever opined on a particular subject and my efforts through internet search engines and the public library databases* have not proven successful so far. Would you be willing to use your expertise to track it down? I think Hit and Run has your email address so I will send an email c/o him.
_____________________
*Operator error.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Geri Ferraro is saying "both of them won."

So I think that means Palin won.

[Sue]

Biden's tears didn't move last night. His story at the convention did. The tears last night seemed contrived.

[Sue]

Shoot...Biden's tears didn't move **ME** last night.

[Captain Hate]

Has Krauthammer had a petite-mal that has thus far gone undiagnosed? Those comments at Hot Air sound like things he'd never say and would ridicule others for doing so.

[Porchlight]

Elliott,

Sure, I'd love to give it a try. Send it on over.

[Cecil Turner]

I was disappointed Palin didn't call Biden on his lies about the current credit crisis. Hope it's in fact part of a deeper game, but the meme will be well-established soon, and if they don't move in it pretty quickly, the MSM Obots will just run out the clock on 'em.

Biggest cluelessness of the night was Biden talking Afghanistan. He (and BHO) like to pretend we could just add troops and everything would get better; it's a stupid point. Bottom line is that every troop, every piece of military equipment, and most of their support has to be flown into Afghanistan. Of course it's a smaller scale operation, because the logistics effort is so much more difficult. And there's no capability to simply add a division or two and make it all okay.

That's by far the biggest difference between the two efforts, not the application of counterinsurgency principles. Biden's nonsense talking point about General McKiernan saying you couldn't "surge" in Afghanistan was referring to a statement where the good General meant precisely that (and a sustained effort vice surge was required). CNN's clueless "fact checkers" liked Biden's claim, and referred to the WaPo's filtered version to make their case. But of course COIN principles apply to Afghanistan, and the transcript makes it obvious GEN McKiernan agrees:

Q Thank you, sir. I'm wondering if any thought was being given to migrating the lessons of the Iraq Awakening to Afghanistan to get some of these tribal leaders to have their fighting forces work with you, either because it's the right thing or just for the money, or is the situation so different that that's not applicable?

GEN. MCKIERNAN: Well, I think the similarity is the fact that we need to leverage the tribal system in Afghanistan as was done in Iraq, as -- for a community, bottom-up based approach to security and connection with the government. That part's the same.

What I find in Afghanistan, however, is a degree of complexity in the tribal system which is much greater than what I found in Iraq years ago.

And I also find that of the over 400 major tribal networks inside of Afghanistan, they have been largely, as I said earlier, traumatized by over 30 years of war, so a lot of that traditional tribal structure has broken down.

But the question and the need to engage the tribes, to engage tribal authorities and use those values at a local level to enhance security, governance, needs of the people to be able to express grievances with the government of Afghanistan, I think, is an important concept and one that we have to continue to work in support of the government of Afghanistan.

The big difference is that he thinks it ought primarily to be a host government task. In other news, the "big difference" perhaps ain't all that big:

Iraq: government takes command of Sons of Iraq

[clarice]

I think Krauthammer is not crazy but taking a conservative (that is, going with the odds) approach and the odds are on Obama even if we think they shouldn't be. His whole quote says that clearly:
"Obama has shown that he is a man of limited experience, questionable convictions, deeply troubling associations (Jeremiah Wright, William Ayers, Tony Rezko) and an alarming lack of self-definition -- do you really know who he is and what he believes? Nonetheless, he's got both a first-class intellect and a first-class temperament. That will likely be enough to make him president. "

[Pofarmer]

Crap, can't get to my congressman. Gawd I hate this bill.

Oh my. I don't think the supporters of the bailout realize what power they are handing to Executive branch.

No,they are only worried about their bank accounts.

So, what do we do if we pass this bill and the Stock Market continues to sell off and house prices continue to go down????

Or, what do we do if printing 700,000,000,000 dollars creates a huge round of inflation?

[Elliott]

Thanks, Porchlight. It should be with H&R now.

[Cecil Turner]

France and the US kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon? Huh? Might he have meant Syria out of Lebanon a few years back?

I presumed he meant the PLO in 1982:

Towards the end the siege, the US and European governments brokered an agreement guaranteeing safe passage for Arafat and the PLO — guarded by a multinational force of eight hundred US Marines supported by the US Navy — to exile in Tunis.[39]

Arafat returned to Lebanon a year after his eviction from Beirut, this time establishing himself in the northern city of Tripoli. This time Arafat was expelled by a fellow Palestinian working under Hafez al-Assad. Arafat did not return to Lebanon after his second expulsion, though many Fatah fighters did.

Anyway, it's another stupid point . . . he's got the wrong group for one, and besides, the effort he cites wasn't even a success: it didn't stop the violence (and in fact produced no lasting positive effects I'm aware of).

[Pofarmer]

Congressional e-mail servers must be completely fried.

[pagar]

It's hard to imagine anything funnier than this:

"Poor Joe. Ann Curry is concerned that the senator from Delaware was the victim of a double-standard during last night's debate that caused him to hide his light under a barrel."

LUN

Is there any proof that he ever had a light?

[fdcol63]

Somebody needs to tell Biden - and his "principle", Obama - that the reason Afghanistan is heating up right now is because we are winning in Iraq, and the jihadists who had been flocking to the "central front" in Iraq are now heading to those tribal areas in Waziristan where they enjoy support and aid from their fellow Islamist militants.

That, and the fact that the jihadists are taking advantage of the lack of will to fight of most of our vaunted NATO "allies".

[Pofarmer]

Dows up 178. $ is up.80 Oil is up $1.38.

Dow is sideways. $ is up strong. Oil is up strong.

This is not crisis trading.

[Barbara]

I agree that Krauthammer did raise issues with Obama's background, beliefs and associations. That is why his conclusion as to the suitability of Obama for the presidency presents such a cognitive dissonance.

[Pofarmer]

Should have said oil is up strong but still in a signifgant downtrend.

[PaulL]

Sarah was fantastic. How would you like to know that 50 million people or so are watching you for any mistake and that the presidency rides on your performance?

I am surprised at the number of clueless pundits, even on the right, who think this was only a tie of some kind. In reality she was phenomenal.

Name me anyone, for president or vice president, who has done a better job since the advent of television.

[DebinNC]

When the frauds ACORN sign-up arrive to vote, they'll be met by specially trained Pollworkers for Democracy

More: Scare Tactics Used to Hire Pollworkers

[Sue]

It makes me wonder when "they" say Joe won on the issues. He seemed to have a better command of the issues and facts. Well, yeah. If you get to make up your own facts and no one calls you on them, you do sound more in command. This is what I warned of yesterday. Palin wouldn't know Joe's record well enough to call him the liar he is. Though she did on a couple of points.

[Pofarmer]

Nonetheless, he's got both a first-class intellect

As others have said, I'd really like to see the evidence of that. Maybe that's Obama's October surprise. He'll finally release his birth certificate and Harvard and Columbia records.

[Appalled]

This is probably the first and last time I'll agree with Krauthammer.

[Pofarmer]

I am surprised at the number of clueless pundits, even on the right, who think this was only a tie of some kind. In reality she was phenomenal.

I don't know if ya'll noticed it. I think it was on the Afghanistan question when Palin brought said "I've talked to the General and this is what he said" and Ifill let Biden get the last word in and he mumbled some stuff in a very low voice. He was like a puppy with his tail between his legs at that point. There were at least two or three other instances where Palin absolutely cut him off at the knees. Palin is not a numbers person, that is obvious, most women aren't. Joe just thinks he is and makes stuff up or uses questionable figures. Dad said that Fox news this morning that there were 24 things Biden said that weren't factually accurate. 24 fallacies in an hour and a half???? Is there anything he said that was true???? How can you call that a win????? The headlines should be, "Biden making shit up."

[Rick Ballard]

"Or, what do we do if printing 700,000,000,000 dollars creates a huge round of inflation?"

The lifting of the debt ceiling implies that the $700B will be garnered via the sale of bonds and bills. The Fed is going to borrow (take money out of the economy) and then purchase bonds (put the same money back into the economy). The interest paid by the Fed may or may not be covered by the interest received on the MBS paper and the entire $700B may or may not be recovered through the eventual retirement or sale of the paper.

I might have something wrong there but if it's as described then it is not inflationary in the sense that there is no more money in the system after the deal is consummated than there was before.

[clarice]

JPod makes a great point today--the pundits have no idea what she means to this race..it's outside their little world (both the average voter and the Sarah phenom).

[Captain Hate]

"Poor Joe. Ann Curry is concerned that the senator from Delaware was the victim of a double-standard during last night's debate that caused him to hide his light under a barrel."

Ann Curry == dumb as a plank and beneficiary of double standard.

[SWarren]

Last night when Sarah spoke of how John McCain warned two years ago of the problems and a disaster in the making at FF and FF, Biden countered with something about Obama doing the warning.
Biden brought it up a couple of times. What the heck was that about??

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Hmmm. The FBI raided one of Obama's close Chicago associates.

[narciso]

Yep, he's got the wrong group back in '82; it was the PLO that was relocated to Tunis. Some would say that the now late Mr. Imad Mughniyeh, formerly a member of the Arafat's Force 17 security service like Black September plotter Ali Salameh; had ties in both direction; which probably explains both the Embassy bombings on the Corniche, Rahde, Auk; and even probably Pan Am 103; I don't think Musa Kadr's were the only ones involved.

The elections were in Gaza, not the West Bank; which shares with Southern Lebanon; the unenviable distinction of having been
the site of major Israeli 'redeployments'
of settlers, which both Hezbollah and Hamas
took as confirmations of the efficacy of their guerilla campaigns. Not surprising that Biden wouldn't get this.

General McKiernan's name really hasn't been featured as widely as Petraeus; he was one of the leaders of the almost flawless ground assault in Iraq; which "Generation Kill" has tried to turn retroactively into a defeat. He was replaced by Sanchez, which in retrospect was one of Rumsfeld's less swift moves.
He has pointed out in the past, the difficulties underlying such an approach as the surge; weakened tribal cohesions, the influence of Pashtunwali; but it is still the most viable option,(seen by the efforts of former Iraq Vets from Ramadi;particularly
the famed 24th MEU of Beirut, operating in Helmand Province recently) Seeing as Biden and Obama, both opposed such a strategy for Iraq; which is a much more permissable environment for Operation; than either side
of the Durand line, it's a baffling line of attack.

[Annoying Old Guy]

I agree that Krauthammer did raise issues with Obama's background, beliefs and associations. That is why his conclusion as to the suitability of Obama for the presidency presents such a cognitive dissonance.

I read Krauthammer as claiming that Obama's intellect and temperament will enable him to be elected President, not that they make him suitable to be President.

[Sue]

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NDYzMGFiNjQ0MWRjNmI0ZTlkYjgwZTExMjA3MWNiZTk=>Rich Lowry is in love. I lol at his post.

[Gia]

When talking about his role as VP,Biden said:
“But Barack Obama indicated to me he wanted me with him to help him govern. So every major decision he'll be making, I'll be sitting in the room to give my best advice.”
The folks who trumpet on about Palin being a heartbeat away from the Presidency should be appalled by this comment. Barack Obama will not be even a heartbeat away if he wins! My one criticism of Palin during this debate is that she should have pointed this out, along with the fact that John McCain, unlike Obama, does not need a babysitter in the Oval Office. Sarah will assist him but he does not need help in governing as President. He’s is fully capable of handling it himself, unlike The One!

[MayBee]

I don't listen to Rush much anymore, but I remember years ago when I did he was always on "intellectuals" for saying "uh" all the time. He said they do it to make themselves sound like they are thinking as they talk, even though it is a ponderous style that is difficult to listen to. I didn't think much about it at the time.

I now believe it is Obama's "uhs" in his speaking that make people believe he is such an unparalleled intellectual. If you read what he says, it is often nothing. Furthermore, it usually contradicts the nothing he said before. But he says it so darn thoughtfully, the listener stops listening (it's too hard!) and gets an impression of intellectualism.

[Extraneus]

Name me anyone, for president or vice president, who has done a better job since the advent of television.

Everyone sees what they want to see to some extent, I guess. I saw what PaulL and Lowry saw.

[RichatUF]

SWarren-

what has Axelrod got up his sleeve

Haven't finished catching up, but this is easy. He's already eye gouged and hit below the belt. The only thing left is ear biting.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

He said they do it to make themselves sound like they are thinking as they talk, even though it is a ponderous style that is difficult to listen to. I didn't think much about it at the time.

Uh, sometimes, people really are, uh, thinking about the right thing to, uh, say.

I'm one of those people, and I promise you it's not an affectation, it's a plague. My recent media appearances have kind of rubbed my face in it.

[MayBee]

Uh, sometimes, people really are, uh, thinking about the right thing to, uh, say.

I don't say "uh". I just don't bother to think about what I'm trying to say, and say whatever comes out of my mouth.
If someone looks confused, I then go back and try to figure out what I just said.

[hit and run]

Elliott Plame:
It should be with H&R now.

I won't be able to hey email until this evening.

[RichatUF]

Elliott-

Would you be willing to use your expertise to track it down?

The question wasn't addressed to me, but if it is about Obama "warning" of the sub-prime crisis he has a letter date March 7 2007 to the Treasury Sect and the Fed Chair yammering on about foreclosures and "predatory lending". On the previous thread I linked to the Citibank lawsuit where Obama successfully sued to open up the sub-prime fiasco and his 2007 letter from his Senate website.

As far as him "warning" about anything, it would take a pretty creative reading of his letter-it was standard ACORN talking points.

[Angellight]

Even though McCain Camp sucessfully neutered Gwen Ifil by a predebate attack on her credibility, we should not be fooled by Palin’s Acting/ sparring abilities (although she had her Notes with her) to sucessfully weave and bob and her canny ability not to answer questions she does not like in contradiction to her also not being able to intelligently answer complex questions on the spot! It seems as if she feels the American people have no need to be given intelligent, thoughtful answers to the pressing questions of today, and that we would rather be winked at and called hockey moms and Joe Sixpacks while our economy is in ruins! We need our candidates to present truth, not lies and talking points of lies which have nothing to do with reality. We have been lied too enough in this country. We need leaders who are of high moral character and who think their word is thier bond.
******************************************************************************

Starting to question McCain’s mental fitness

McCain’s interviews have become increasingly angry, hostile and unhinged. He seems to be on the verge of some kind of mental collapse. A big part of McCain’s erratic behavior is due to Obama having gotten deep, deep, deep inside his head. If McCain’s brain was x-rayed, it would reveal Obama sitting comfortably upon McCain’s cerebral peduncles. But, it is more than that. I believe McCain’s increasing instability is being caused by the stress of the campaign and his 72 year old body not being able to get the rest that it requires to function properly. That isn’t ageism—that is a simple fact of life. I wondered how McCain, being in advanced years, would respond under the grueling pace of a general election. I think we are all beginning to find out and it really isn’t a pretty site. He is on the verge of some kind of mental collapse.

http://www.progressivedailybeacon.com/?p=1986

[Charlie (Colorado)]

"Progressive Daily Beacon"?

You're joking.

[boris]

Obama "warning" of the sub-prime crisis he has a letter date March 7 2007 to the Treasury Sect and the Fed Chair yammering on about foreclosures and "predatory lending".

ISTM 2007 is kinda late to do something about bad loans already in the system. Barney Frank tried to credit tightening regulation on Fannie May in 2007 during the dustup with O'Reilly too.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

I notice that it's Steny Hoyer making what appears to be the leadership speech. We'll see if Nancy comes out; I suspect Hoyer may have her chained in the basement.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

By the way, I've got #97 now: another one where a satire was taken for fact. It'll be interesting how many times it's repeated as fact.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Yes, Hoyer just yielded the balance. Nancy ain't getting to talk.

Bet a dollar she's gone in the next leadership election, if she doesn't resign first.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Oh, no, Nancy does get to talk. Damn.

[Jim Rhoads aka vnjagvet]

She gets one minute. Can she screw it up in one minute?

[glasater]

She's speaking right now. Watch her screw the bill up.

[Rick Ballard]

The Skeptical Optimist offers another primer for Congressional Bozos. It's not as extensive as his first effort but it's still good.

[clarice]

I really have to hand it to those folks who listened carefully enough to Biden to catch all his lies. I have to admit I cannot pay attention to what he's saying for more than a sentence or two--My mind just shuts off to that droning.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

No, she's figured out there really is big trouble, so she's trying to explain why the bill that was a "Wall Street bailout" on Monday is saving Main Street today.

Hah, you idjit, you're voting for almost the identical text as Monday, except for the bill it was hung on.