Turnabout Is Something Or Other

Mormons tipped the balance in the passage of Prop 8 in California?  Interesting - per this Times story they did come up with some late useful cash and as a proselytizing religion it should surprise no one that they were capable of putting boots on the ground, but...

Surely this article ought to remind readers of the Obama effect on Prop 8:

The Rev. Samuel Rodriguez, a pastor in Sacramento and president of the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference, said the campaign to pass Proposition 8 had begun with white evangelical churches but had spread to more than 1,130 Hispanic churches whose pastors convinced their members that same-sex marriage threatened the traditional family.

“Without the Latino vote,” Mr. Rodriguez said, “Proposition 8 would never have succeeded.”

Frank Schubert, the campaign manager for Protect Marriage, the leading group behind Proposition 8, agreed that minority votes had put the measure over the top, saying that a strategy of working with conservative black pastors and community leaders had paid off.

“It’s a big reason why we won, no doubt about it,” he said.

And after all the controversy Mormons have endured about polygamy their role in Prop 8 has the appearance of the bitten biting back.

Comments

[kim]

The Latter Day Saints get demonized by the same process and rationale as that demonizing Sarah Palin. I'm surprised she isn't accused of being a closet Mormon. Didn't she go to school in Idaho?

I wish Romney and Palin got along. Can't we nominate Palin and Romney and Steele and Jindal for a co-Presidency?

On the other hand, I like Giuliani better now than I ever have. We could use a real bastard for a change.
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[Captain Hate]

The douche protesters are lashing out at the LDS because they don't think there will be physical consequences unlike churches in East LA or mosques, which likewise want no part of gay marriage and voted accordingly.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Well according to the LA Times, it was the Obama robocalls that did the trick.

Gays, blacks divided on Proposition 8
For many African Americans, it's not a civil rights issue.

... One complicating factor was that both sides in the campaign had plausible reason to claim Obama's support. The president-elect strongly stated his opposition to the proposition, calling it "divisive and discriminatory."

But he has also said in public speeches that he opposes same-sex marriage. In the days leading up to the election, some Democrats received "robo-calls" on their cellphones containing an excerpt from such a speech.

"Here is Barack Obama in his own words on the definition of marriage," the call began.

Then the voice of Obama speaking to a crowd comes on: "I believe marriage is a union between a man and a woman. Now, for me as a Christian, it is also a sacred union. God is in the mix."

A narrator then urged a yes vote on Proposition 8.

California Democratic Party consultant Roger Salazar was among the recipients of the call.

"They saw the Obama tide coming and they were trying to capitalize on it," Salazar said, adding that the call was "manipulative and deceitful," given the candidate's stated opposition to the amendment.

Still, those efforts, combined with a push by dozens of African American ministers and commercials and mailers arguing that children would be subjected to a pro-gay curriculum should the measure pass, had an effect on voters like Pasadena resident Doris Tucker.

Tucker, who is African American, said she voted for "all the good things," especially Obama and Proposition 8. "I don't think it's right," Tucker said of gay marriage. "They shouldn't let it go on."

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

There are just over 700,000 LDS members in Calif. and a good number of those are not of voting age. Yet Prop 8 passed with over 500,000 votes. To single out Mormons is stupid.

[Take a look]

Turnabout. This reminds me of the church and how when you use the power. You find out your helping, an enemy, that turns out is your friend. The church handles lucifer and his power being used like this. Obama chose lucifer and his power a long time ago and turns out Congress was doing his 100s of billions in foreign aid five year financing and made him president. He wasn't an enemy using lucifer to go after bodies and pain and give heart attacks, but their friend who they helped with foreign aid cash and even got him elected.

So, America paid with the mortgage thing.

The Obama affect is not religion, but his luciferian roots being pleased by other worshipers who might say they believe in Jesus or Congress or something; but they worship lucifer just like Obama.

Obama is paying off the people he made deals with, like no pain or heart attacks, and no one should be surprised that they don't understand why he's going to let the US burn. 'We don't need no water, let the motherfer burn.' He has to pay these off and can't hire other people who would have made a difference. He can't do the change. He's choosing to be pleased by lucifer again, but that was always his plan and how he got where he is; Congress pleased.

[Robert www.neolibertarian.com]

The anti-Prop 8 scapegoating of out of state religious extremists was never true but it fit in with both California liberals’ narcissism, about the moral superiority of their own state, and their hatred of Red States.

As rightvoices has pointed out, anti-prop 8 forces got more money from out of state than pro-prop 8 people and, as others have pointed out, the black and hispanic votes probably did more to put prop 8 over the top than the mormons did.

Instead of focusing on winning over a small percentage of the moderates who voted for Prop 8, which is all it will take to overturn the ban, the gay marriage advocates are repeating their campaign mistakes, which I think cost them the election, and are pursuing a strategy in the courts that should scare the hell out of everybody.

[DrJ]

Ironically, the left-side JOM advertising panel displays a click-through for www.MeetGayCouples.com.

[RichatUF]

Sara-

In Obamaination Year Zero gays are no longer needed in the vanguard of the cultural revolution and politics demands that churches across the land be brought to heel.

Some of it is Prop8, but that doesn't explain the attacks in Michigan and Utah (or the lack of outrage regarding the passage of Prop2 in FL with 62% of the vote).

[Rick Ballard]

"Ironically, the left-side JOM advertising panel displays a click-through for www.MeetGayCouples.com."

That's in lieu of the usual trollcover (condom) ads. Just a little Google fun in exchange for the nickels and dimes garnered for running their trash. I don't believe that TM has analyzed Google's tactics as yet.

At least I hope he hasn't.

BTW - in the future I will distinguish between the brainless mush found in most "liberal" arts departments and the folks who actually know how to count. I have a bit of a problem classifying "climate science" with the "know how to count" folks. I think "climate science" belongs next to "political science" as a "discipline". There are a few other "science" disciplines which don't appear to possess much attachment to scientific rigor (whispers "like ecological related horse manure").

IOW - MSU + invalid statistics to "prove" the predetermined point being made.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Rich: From the time of Brigham Young, the LDS church has had the policy against any member seeking public assistance or going on the public dole. It is one of the reasons they've built such a large internal distribution system and church welfare-type programs for their members. It goes back to the terrible persecutions of Mormons in the 1800s. They believe in self-sufficiency with no reliance on the government trough. And for this reason, they are a real danger to someone like Obama and to a party that believes in government handouts as a way to reward their voters.

[DrJ]

I have a bit of a problem classifying "climate science" with the "know how to count" folks. I think "climate science" belongs next to "political science" as a "discipline".

That's a bit harsh. I have a very good friend who does climate modeling in an academic environment (as well as toxic contaminant fate). He is way left politically (no surprise) but the sort of tools they apply to the problem are sophisticated, though very incomplete. They need work on the constitutive relations, IMO. But they definitely can count.

But you are right that the environmental types, whether in their own department (Environmental Engineering) or in Civil or Chemical Engineering are the least rigorous of the hard sciences and engineering. Let's ignore the Industrial Engineers in this analysis.

[clarice]

Wait a minute..is someone suggesting that it's easier to blame and demonize the Mormons than it is to blame Moslems and black churches? I thought it an utter coincidence that the gay rights crowd picketed and beset Mormon worshippers rather than the others.

[kim]

Watts Up With That and climateaudit.org are having a lot of fun this last week with NASA's apparent lack of quality control in their GIStemp program which recently basically came out with September '08 being the hottest October on record. In too many instances, Septembers records had simply been copied over for October. In the resulting brouhaha and excuse epidemic it has been revealed that NASA spends the equivalent of one quarter time person(0.25 FTE) to insure the integrity of the numbers. On this ham-handed endeavour, policy worth trillions of dollars is being hung. James Hansen has outlived his usefulness.
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[Rick Ballard]

DrJ,

Agreed. Too broad a brush. Pielke and others actually do decent science. Hansen and Mann do politics disguised as science. I still think that even Pielke might be a little high on a global basis wrt man's impact on climate but he appears to be on target with reference to regional impact. With the others "global" means "above 35N" except with regard to the Medieval Warm Period which was wholly "local" (again, above 35N) in nature.

I continue to smile every time I consider what the temperature "should" be doing in an interglacial period when interglacials have an average duration of 35-40K years. One might assume that temperatures could be expected to rise in the first 20K years and fall thereafter. Sort of the same with glaciers - advancing glaciers in the first half of an interglacial would seem rather anomalous. OTOH - retreating glaciers would seem to fit right in.

[MayBee]

Instead of focusing on winning over a small percentage of the moderates who voted for Prop 8, which is all it will take to overturn the ban, the gay marriage advocates are repeating their campaign mistakes,

I absolutely agree.
The gay marriage advocates are confirming every fear of the moderates.
When the anti-SSM said gay marriage would be taught in schools, the pro-SSM countered with an ad saying they were supported by the California Teacher's Union.
When the anti-SSM said the pro-SSM wanted to interfere with religion, the pro-SSM started boycotting mormons.
They need to stop yelling "bigot" and listen and learn.

Aravosis is a putz. He'll boycott Sundance and probably vacation in the UAE.

[PaulV]

Those robo calls are no more "manipulative and deceitful," than Obama campaign. Obama voted present and his lack of courage speak for itself.

[DrJ]

Hansen and Mann do politics disguised as science.

It is a good general rule that scientists who seek the political light are terrible scientists. The good ones, almost without exception, the general (or even informed) public never hears about.

[Pofarmer]

To single out Mormons is stupid.

Yeah,well, look who's doing it. They saw the MSM take Romney out of the presidential race, and now they're just playing the same game.

[Pofarmer]

Those robo calls are no more "manipulative and deceitful," than Obama campaign. Obama voted present and his lack of courage speak for itself.

Someone accused Obama of having a position???? WTF were they thinking?

[sylvia]

Yes I think race played a big factor in this election, but I think it was mostly the race factor for blacks.

Obama won with only 43% of the white vote. Hardly a mandate among whites. That's probably a lower white vote count for any winning candidate in I don't know how long. Probably a long long time. In contrast Bush won with 58% of the white vote last time in 2004.

The reason Obama won is he got 95% of the black vote. I did a little chart for myself and saw that the turnout among blacks, or whites for that matter, did not have to be substantially higher or lower than previous elections to come up with the winning number. It is just the fact that Obama got 95% of the black vote, which is a number so skewed, it knocked up the averages, (just like getting a 100% on a test would on your gpa) and carried Obama through.

Then we have to ask ourselves, what does it mean that one group voted 95% for one of their own. Surely they have the right to so do, and one can understand why they would want to help Obama. However, is that a fair way to vote- to help one of your own? Surely it's not fair the other way around, when you want to stop someone not of your kind. Why is it more fair in the first case.

If this is a pattern in black voting, and they may remain this cohesive in their voting patterns, then the candidates not favored by the blacks, usually the Republican, will have to win over 61% of the white vote in order to win a general election. That's a tall order.

[jeanedcrusader]

What's wrong with recognizing the Mormons for the role they played in Prop 8? I think if they're being singled out, it's in a positive sense, even though they've traditionally held some strange views on marriage.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

NY Times Paints Huge Target On Mormon Church

[matt]

doesn't it seem the height of absurdity to watch these clowns protesting? I get the feeling I'm watching the finale of Blazing Saddles when the big dance scene with Dom Deluise or one of his minions says "C'mon Gils, let's get 'em!"....

Unfortunately, we're probably going to get the gay version of the Weather Underground now....but divinely dressed and coiffed....

[Angie Smith]

Thanks to Blacks and Latinos who voted against gay marriage. There's nothing "gay" about a that way of life. In the Bible, God says man should not lay down with other men and I don't want my children and grandchildren exposed to this aberrant lifestyle. What they do in their own homes is one thing and I'll let God be their judge. But for them and their illuminati degenerates to try and force their lifestyle on us, including rewriting the Constitution to their benefit, is disgusting and when the issue comes up again, hope the rest of us have the strength to vote against them!

[Angie Smith]

Thanks to Blacks and Latinos who voted against gay marriage. There's nothing "gay" about a that way of life. In the Bible, God says man should not lay down with other men and I don't want my children and grandchildren exposed to this aberrant lifestyle. What they do in their own homes is one thing and I'll let God be their judge. But for them and their illuminati degenerates to try and force their lifestyle on us, including rewriting the Constitution to their benefit, is disgusting and when the issue comes up again, hope the rest of us have the strength to vote against them!

[BurtN]

And after all the controversy Mormons have endured about polygamy their role in Prop 8 has the appearance of the bitten biting back.

Or you could think of it as history repeating itself.

In the 19th century, the Mormon Church was attacked and almost obliterated over its stance on marriage. (lost in the Supreme Court, the Edmunds act in Congress, the church's holdings confiscated)

In the 21st century, the Mormon Church is being attacked over its stance on marriage.

Back then, our "traditional marriage" was traditional after the manner of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. When the US freaking Government told us there's only one kinda marriage in this here country, we took them at their word.

At least we're consistent. We defend our beliefs, one of which is to uphold and sustain the law. When we consider a law (in this case, one forced by a 4-3 decision of judges on a populace that had already voted overwhelmingly on the issue with Prop 22) to be unjust, we work to urge a change, and asked that it be put (again) to a vote.

Clearly, the demographics show that the youngest voters (under 30) voted no by almost 2-1, where everyone OVER 30 voted convincingly against it. If this trend continues, a majority will eventually vote in a statewide election for gay marriage in one form or another. But the extreme response of some "No on H8" people could well set that back, just as Gavin Newsom's excesses likely cost them the vote this time around.

Whether you like it or not, Mayor, the majority of California voters disagreed with you.

Again.

[kim]

See Mitchell Langbert's blog for a report on the hijinks of BashBack, a gay attack on a church in Lansing, Michigan.
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[sylvia]

I'm still interested in the voting break down by group. Using my excell chart, and using rough minority population estimates by state, it seems McCain would have needed to gotten the following amount of the white vote to win these swing states:

IN 56%, PA 58%, NM 65%, VA 66%, NC 67%, FL 68%

That's a lot. I'm just wondering about this because most of the people I know, by about 2 to 1, most of whom are white, wanted to vote for McCain, so I'm trying to figure out who voted for Obama. Of course of the black people I know, they all voted for Obama, but the black vote usually goes Dem anyway. So we see from these numbers how much McCain needed to win, and explains what I noticed around me.

[Arizonagovernorstatedepartment]

Sort selling houses. I can't short sell commodities? The Merrill Asian buyout bailout couldn't be better.

[Crunchy Frog]

Having the Anti-8 folks go ballistic on them is providing the Mormons better PR than they could ever hope to buy in advertising. They get to look positively normal while the freak show rages on outside their gates.

The big winner in all this - Mitt Romney.

[sophy]

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