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December 01, 2008

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kim

A conventional bomb, dirty with radioactivity, can be set off in a small plane over any metropolis. Loss of life might not be great but the economic damage might be horrendous. Hell, they could do it with a coupla gallons of mercury.
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Appalled

What commission known to man ever concluded that their topic of interest was overblown, there was really very little to worry about or recommend, and that the world, despite its best efforts, really is not coming to an end?

PeterUK

kim,
There is no need foe anything exotic,there are enough ingredients around for those with knowledge.Sooner or later somebody will cotton on.

sbw

Wait a minute. You mean we shouldn't focus on capturing Osama after all? Maybe we should stay in Iraq a while longer?

bgates

sbw, don't be daft. If the world community needs to act decisively, then we need to do whatever it takes to make the world happy. Believe it or not, there are some retrograde elements even outside of the Republican party who have not ascended to ecstasy on news of Obama's election, but there are things we can do to win their support - abandoning Iraq, Taiwan, and Ukraine will be a good start.
Next we must cut off the oil money that funds terrorism by eliminating the use of fossil fuels. That will run the risk of generating the poverty that breeds terrorism, so we will have to start a foreign aid program to the Middle East that replaces all those lost petrodollars. To ensure that money does not simply go back into weapons, it should be administered by the watchful eye of the United Nations.
If bioterrorism is a threat to national security, then the immune system of every human being in the country must be monitored by the national security apparatus. Teams of Civilian National Security Force members will be empowered to go door to door collecting blood samples (kids can be rewarded for making it through the first needle with an "I Bleed for Obama and the Nation" sticker for their bookbags) and posting quarantine notices where appropriate.
Countering the threat of bioweapons requires technical expertise. We must make progressive education in science available to all. Once we have broken with the dangerous superstitions of the past, we will be able to develop alternatives to the vaccine industry that don't cause autism, perhaps a homeopathic remedy or something.
Finally, the danger of dirty bombs shows that nuclear energy must be stopped. America can take the lead and regain its moral standing in the world by mothballing its nuclear arsenal and suspending aid and diplomatic relations with Israel until it has done the same.
Stay in Iraq. Pshaw.

Thomas Collins

The clearest thinker on combating terrorism while preserving civil liberties is Angelo Codevilla. In a book review on the web site of The Claremont Institute, Codevilla articulates the following clear headed principles:

"(1) Exciting as "The nation-state is passé!" may be as a topic at five-star conferences and as ardently as Eurocrats and their American admirers may wish it were true, the fact is that humanity today lives in such states, and that the ones from which terrorists come looking for us, whence the money and inspiration for terrorism come, are thoroughly capable of turning terrorism on or off. They have chosen to turn it on. What will it take to make them turn it off?

(2) Only the peoples of any given nation-state can decide what they regard as legitimate. Three decades of Euro-rule by unelected bureaucrats who regard each other as embodying Legitimacy should have taught us that all peoples so ruled end up regarding their rulers as self-serving, and would not consider sacrificing anything at their behest. Hence any attempt to substitute the kind of international consensus dear to Bobbitt for traditional American decisions about America's national interest would Europeanize America.

(3) Armies are blunt instruments of war, essentially negative in character. Any further regimentation, not to mention militarization, of American civilian life will further dry up the only true source of domestic security, namely, the American people's immunological reaction against those in our midst who may not have the country's best interests at heart. This fellow feeling, not razor wire and identity cards and "security," kept America secure and civil during the 20th century. Thinking of the U.S. government's role at home in terms commensurable with notions of "the new way of war" and "market states" is no less ludicrous for being logical.

(4) The proper use of armies is to crush enemies, not to mix with them for hazy ends. Even as the makers of "international consensus" find in Islamic violence reasons to respect Islamists of which they had scarcely been aware, so they may one day find that an America that crushes its tormentors and moves on might not be so unsophisticated after all."

The key element of Codevilla's thought is that the use of force to crush terrorists is essential to preserving our civil liberties. Codevilla breaks through the mushy thinking of civil libertarians who favor a conciliatory approach to terrorists and homeland security hardliners who favor increasing militarization of the Homeland. These are not easy issues, and traditional civil libertarians and homeland security hardliners are no doubt sincere in their beliefs. But Codevilla's thinking has not received enough attention.

Jane, you could use Codevilla's four points in your radio show. The points will probably get a reaction out of your host!




PeterUK

"so we will have to start a foreign aid program to the Middle East that replaces all those lost petrodollars."

Obviously the "McCamelburger" is a hot choice.

PeterUK

"Exciting as "The nation-state is passé!" may be as a topic at five-star conferences and as ardently as Eurocrats and their American admirers may wish it were true,"

This is the heart of hypocrisy in the EU,there is a fervent belief in the nation state,it is called the European Union.

Bob W.

A "conventional" terrorist attack in Mumbai just wreaked some serious havoc, no?

The seeming reluctance of armed police, first on the scene, to respond effectively to the terror attack is interesting, and something that we should think about as we analyze our own readiness for a similar type of attack in the U.S.

I argue http://acreofindependence.com/2008/12/01/guns-in-northfield-terror-in-mumbai/>here that at other times in history we were fairly prepared for unpleasant surprises like what occurred in Mumbai, using the historical example of the James-Younger raid on Northfield Minnesota. Cheers.

Jane

OT: I think it is quite cool, and somewhat groundbreaking that the Muslim clerics in India refuse to bury the Muslim terrorists in their cemeteries. I can't recall that happening before.

matt

as Homer Simpson would say, "Duh!". The world has been living on borrowed time until the next major terrorist attack. From the reports, the Indians seem to have ignored some fairly clear signals intelligence. We cannot afford to do the same. It's almost always there so long as the CIA doesn't screw it up.

More spooks, please, in more places where people don't like us. Let the NSA do their job, and find the bastards before they can either get their hands on CBW or nuclear materials, or before they attempt to use them.

Unfortunately, these days, such an attack is as likely to originate in The Midlands or the Continent as the Middle East.

JM Hanes

Despite the fact that monumental hypocrisy will continue unabated, I take comfort in the old adage that there's no end to what you can accomplish, if you're willing to let someone else take the credit. Time and again, real agents of controversial change who have the courage to act openly are scorned or feared, while making their successors' "achievements" possible.

Patrick R. Sullivan

Speaking of terrorists, Jack Cashill says that Bill Ayers' girlfriend and Barack Obama's both grew up on the same estate:

"The house was very old, her grandfather's house," Obama writes [in 'Dreams'] of his girlfriend's country home. "He had inherited it from his grandfather."

Writes Ayers [in Fugitive Days] of [Diana] Oughton, "She had been to the manor born -- the oldest of four sisters, she was raised in rural Illinois, her father a kind of gentleman farmer from a previous age."

Ayers knew this manor from experience. .... The main house on the Oughton estate, a 20-room Victorian mansion, was built by Oughton's father's grandfather. Formally known as the John R. Oughton House, it was placed on the National Register of Historic Places in 1980.

The carriage house, in which Diana lived as a child, now serves as a public library. It may have already seemed like one when Ayers visited, an impression that finds its way into Obama's words as a library "filled with old books and pictures of the famous people [the grandfather] had known-presidents, diplomats, industrialists."

"It was autumn, beautiful, with woods all around us," Obama writes of his visit to his girlfriend's country home, "and we paddled a canoe across this round, icy lake full of small gold leaves that collected along the shore."

...the Oughton estate (103 South Street [Dwight IL]) has a small lake and, despite forty years of encroaching development, is still thickly ringed by trees.

What a coincidence.

narciso

To paraphrase Adam Sandler "things that could have been brought to me attention, a month ago" Looked up some of your earlier stuff, trying to figure where you turned
'to the dark side'. against Sarah.

You know looking over the whole KatieCouric interview brouhaha, one realizes that Sarah had way more patience than anyone should.
She must have known of Katie's reputation, not actually watched it, that would make a select minority. Sumner's probably thinking how to best cut the gangplank as swiftly as
possible. "You had a two part interview with
the most interesting candidate in living memory and you still lost me money"! Half
an hour, with the perky Couric would make me snap with her condescendingsuperiousness.
When Katie asked what she read;
" I'd have answered do you do any research of your own, or is it all cuecards. . .Well let's see, I read some of the Times,because they spent a week, to figure out I gave birth to my own kids, or that I pick a loyal staff ;that took two weeks while here. I can just imagine what a grasp on international events, they must have. Oh
and I read for all the leaked battle plans
so they enemy can know where my son will be
when he deploys to Iraq, for the price of a subscription, and how they can avoid surveillance of their conversations. . .did you find out anything about my record.

glasater

Patrick--thanks for pointing out the Cashill article. Loved this comment by Ted:

Posted by: Ted
Nov 30, 10:34 PM

I practice law in Cook County. As far as Thomas Ayers' estate is concerned it is almost certainly a living trust with a pour over Will so there would be nothing in the probate file, though I can take a look.

The Dreams case reminds me of a case I handled as a young lawyer almost 20 years ago. It was a class action against Milli Vanilli for lipsyncing their songs. (Yes that was me, along with a dozen other lawyers across the country.) You know the same theory might apply to an undisclosed ghost writer. I'm sure thousands of people would love to get their money back if they learned the book they paid for because they thought it was written by Barack Obama was in fact penned by a domestic terrorist. Civil lawsuits for fraud get you subpoenas to produce manuscripts from the publisher(s), interrogatories, depositions. You never know where that deposition could lead, just ask Bill Clinton.

Patrick R. Sullivan

I laughed at that comment too, glasater.

nonetoday

I can't believe that the best reporting is being done online and people don't even get paid for it. I have read what Cashill says and it makes sense - I even showed it to someone who supports Obama and after reading it they said "I think Cashill is right."

But the media won't even discuss it - I tried to search for information about the BC controversy today on Yahoo but there was nothing. Zero stories. Even if the media thinks it's a crazy right wing theory, the fact that so many people are talking about it is NEWS - that is what they're supposed to report, the NEWS. They don't have to agree but they're not even telling anyone.

This is really shocking to me - the complicity with the media is shocking and frightening.

But they need to sell magazines and newspapers and they want a family with children who look a certain way to help sell magazines. I could never understand the hatred towards Palin from the media but lately I think maybe that is it. A family with a disabled child doesn't sell magazines. I almost never see pictures of celebrities or famous people with disabled children.

narciso

Look I'm willing to sign on to a good theory with facts as much as anyone; but leave the COLB alone. It really gives us
a creepy feeling that we don't need.There's so much other stuff on the record about his policies, his appointees, his associations, that it seems counterproductive. I mean it's scary enough as it is. Susan Rice, watched over the worst genocide in a generation and she hasn't learned a thing.
Now she's going to share her special wisdom at the UN. That's an Inigo Montoya moment right there. Samantha Powers, epic fail on a scale of eleventy; minority populations
surrounded by violent incited majorities in the region, bad news. The same rules apply
to Armenians under the Young Turks,
intellectuals in Year Zero Cambodia, Kurd and Shia until very recently under the Baath, the successors to Rashid Gailani and Israel surrounded by the Palestinians. That can't well, specially considering that at least two of the Arab Israeli wars happened on odd years, '67 and '73, add '47-48.That's
why my neigbor who is as staunch a liberal as one could see, had an ashen expression when she thought of Obama as President. I haven't had the heart to raise the issue again. So knock it off with the faux trutherism, we're above that. Informed criticism is great, we need more of that.

Napolitano at Homeland; Come back Brownie, all is forgiven!(yes I know he was FEMA, same point applies) what is this a belated
April Fools joke?. Maybe Joe Arpaio might have been available, it's still an impossible job, why would one take it, specially if one has no clue as to what to do with it. General Jones, well could have been Zinni or McPeak (where've been hiding him) Hillary the best that can be expected, they're shipping Kerry to the climate negotiations in Poznan "Don't they know who I am". Yes, that's why they're doing it.
So semester old economic data, comes out,
and the market takes as big a fall as the old pre-TARP days. Tim, what happened to the magic. Cynics (not me of course,) might be they're following the tactics described in NewsWeek by Rogoff, "lose 10%, gain five years in power" Yes, they're that cynical about their prospects.

The saving grace, to this sad charade, has to always be Sarah Palin in Georgia. Giving
Saxby a boost (which he probably doesn't deserve) but they have Ludacris, on the other side.(Irony has left the building) and John Lewis, once one of the bravest men
in the world, reduced to incoherent rants, not befitting the occasion. She was
gracious, even to those that didn't deserve it; you're right, that imagined response although satisfying is nothing like her
(one recalls that was the way she won the gubernatorial debates, almost acting as
a referee among the unruly children, Halcro,
Murkowski, & Knowles) always strong on the life issue, energy independence;
*<http://petroleumnews.com/palinbook/excerpts/pdf> to see a sample of what she really did in Alaska the economy, the war. There's a reason why she was runner up to the One, in the Time poll, #2 in the Yahoo ranking, #3 with Lycos, I know there's a lot of junk in those caches, I referenced some of it earlier, but there is an essential
authenticity and decency that flows
through. in these days of artifice over substance. By the way, Tina, karma has a way of catching up to you; just ask Chevy Chase. Maureen Dowd in her Vanity Fair piece, can't tell them apart, 'bless her heart' As was the response to one perennial Palin shrew, who compared her draw to a train wreck: "People will only pay good money; like her upcoming book, for what want and need". I've stated all my previous concerns for any prospective run, I have to add this' since they are Republicans, first,
and as Vanderleun puts it 'they thirst for death" the party will find some litmus test
she can't pass, and anoint some factotum instead, guaranteeing a second term for the One. Even the most Jacksonian of candidates,
will always be always found wanting. While the reverse is rarely true. Recall that Guiliani was undermined by what turned out to be a fabricated set of events,
insinuations, etc until "America's mayor"
was forced out, and the recognition due him
was given to Bloomberg, an erstwhile refugee
from the Solomon Bros flim flam shop.
This isn't idle speculation, see what they
did to someone who delivered them a White House and Congressional combo, who kept the country safe, who had the judicial question firmly in mind; who lived up to his faith.
He was savaged by some rather petty people on the right; even by people I otherwise respect like Ingraham, Malkin, Coulter, pursuing their pet causes, until it seemed like no one ever supported him. And let's be blunt, the same thing was done to McCain,
so as even Sarah's appearance couldn't staunch the injuries to the shattered base. The comparisons are often made to Reagan, but Reagan never had to deal with a very real shooting war on multiple fronts.That's why the Palin pile on in the recent NR seemed unseemly and overdone. They need an issue, just by those on the NR Cruise.

kim

narciso, this isn't COLB anymore, it's the precise definition of 'natural born citizen' with precedent in Supreme Court decisions.
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kim

It's the business of dual allegiance, about which the Constitution and later law specifically concerned itself. It's US v. Wong Kim Ark. Why would not the Supreme Court follow its own precedent? See naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com
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kim

Judah Benjamin is arguing natural law at Texas Darlin, and Leo Donofrio case law at naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com

I don't see a work-around. I am not a lawyer, and I've been grasping at straws, but this one has the heft of a brick.
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Pofarmer

That's why the Palin pile on in the recent NR seemed unseemly and overdone. They need an issue, just by those on the NR Cruise.

I think it's probably more accurate to say that most of them HAVE issues.

One thing that's bugged me about our society for years. We really don't encourage leadership. We encourage folks to "play for the team" or whatever. When a leader emerges, or somebody who appears as a leader, then you get the cult following.

bad

narciso, the COLB stuff is hitting the mainstream. AOL has a piece on it which means a lot of exposure.

MayBee, hit and run, and Elliott

The hour is come.

Developing...

bad

Happy Birthday, Clarice, Tops and Mrs. Hit!!

kim

Well, now, this is very ugly. The Cort Wrotnowski case, supposed to go to conference this Friday, has been diverted for anthrax testing.

Good stuff here, though. A nice analysis by Edwin Vieria about what would happen if Obama is found ineligible:

www.the bulletin.us/site/news.cfm?newsid=20210273
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narciso

I think there's certainly that factor, but there are other things at work. Even NR, the
Republican standard is in large part still affected by the liberal, big city environs of NY and DC. They really can't help it, it's all around them. The Weekly Standard seems less affected, because the crusading
Australian populism still suffuses the place, the one thing the review of the Michael Woolf screed on Murdoch got right.

George Will's wincing at Sarah's invocation of socialism, even though he now admits she was right, kind of indirectly. PeggyNoonan's
projection of followership, and all too precious diction from a Jersey Girl who attended Fairleigh Dickinson. Brook's studied Platonic Academism, even Buckley's refracted freudian view of strong willed Western women,(in his latest, he made his heroine, a Texas atheist liberal!, put up as a ploy by a MidWestern McCain manque, out of pique, on the Supreme Court;hilarity ensues)reflects all that.(Consider he must have been mulling that over for about a year). Add that, to his raging BDS syndrome exarcebated by the Iraq war; but it was always latent. He gave on of the first positive reviews to Tim Robbin's paranoid CIA drug political satire comedy Bob Robert's. Parker's reaction seems the most curious since she is the lone Southerner in the group, and seemingly the most sensible; southern belle jealousy seems to be the touchstone of "her McCain's hormones made him pick Sarah". By the way, how has resident curmudgeon Florence King reacted?
Ponnuru's reaction, is also most curious since he was last the author of a long tract
of the Democrats as the "Party of Death" Apparently that too was an academic abstraction. Which makes me doubt the sincerity of the party on a lot of issues.

I made the point earlier, that Noonan and Will, have so abstracted the American narrative of hard work, love of country et al; that they didn't recognize it in Sarah
and Todd except as some bizarre version of "American Gothic" Out in Wasilla, where
Frederick Turner's American frontier hasn't closed up yet, the world is still full of possibilities. That was seemingly what scaredthe hell of Marc Jacobsen, delivering
a 'frozen Deliverance tale' for his New York audience. Murderous, treacherous gangster he can understand. Crazy truthers, bewildered by such an epic event, that it shatters their world view, Yes. An ordinary gal, who challenges the system, socompletely
she is catapulted to the attention's of the Nation's power brokers, he doesn't get. That's a Disney tale, pre-Touchstone
pictures, as Matt Damon opined. Even the bard of Lake Wobegon, had a conniption fit over her.The G.Q boys recent frantic cry for attention, also falls in that category. That she's a career woman and a mom of 5 kids, yet carries it off with seeming ease;impossible, Desperate Housewives has proved it. Hence, the Bristol pile on, she was the governor's daughter, both parents carry the shotgun, fell in love with the local jock; things happen, specially in a non abstinence curriculum school, the complete reverse of "Murphy Brown".

She was born the year of the Goldwater election rout; when one thought the old Republic had been forever supplanted by Northern liberalism, carried out by a Southern steward. In part due to the most vicious campaign against any candidate till
today. That maybe is the future(Biden is from a slave state, or so he keeps telling us)She grew up in the Reagan years, where political correctness hadn't permeated society just yet, and she's quite aware of what real economic troubles are like; ala Carter, the Volcker appointment probably doesn't warm her heart,as it does others.
They probably saw some hard times in the early 90s, setting up their fishing business. Yet she volunteered, served on the PTA, then ran for city council. Something we only envisaged in old Frank Capra films, She challenged the Mayor and eventually even her sponsor, Nick Carney.
There's even a touch of 'Dave', on how she went about cutting back unneccessary municipal expenditures, yet she saw room for some civic improvements. She ran for Lt. Governor,with precious little funds, lost but came to the attention of the Stevens machine. Right out of Mr. Smith,
she saw corruption in the oil commission and the state party under Mr. Ruedrich and didn't fail to point it out. She resigned on principle (who does that anymore) than ran for Gov'; won that office, upset the applecart again, making the oil companies
actually stick to their promise of building the pipeline. This brought the attention of
the likes of that other blogger and Bill Dyer, true to form, the national Democratic party got wise as to what she represented, and dumped the wheelbarrow of dirt on her,
just like Mr. Smith. Oddly though, where it mattered, in the hearts and minds of the heartland she earned a hearing. The last two month and change were not unlike the
filibuster in Mr. Smith

JM Hanes

Oh Happy Day!

Clarice! TSK9! Mrs. H&R!

Where the hell are you guys?

hit and run

Happy Birthday Clarice, Tops and mrs hit and run!!!

What a blessed day.

Unfortunately for two of the birthday girls, I will be spending today with the third, and largely unavailable to participate in the celebration here.

But I will be thinking of you.

Love,
Me

sbw

Po: We really don't encourage leadership. We encourage folks to "play for the team" or whatever.

One reason, as Dan Quayle demonstrated so painfully, is that, in education, what leadership is has been lost to history.

Leadership is not "Follow me!" Leadership is like a scribe crafting an understanding and accessible explanation of what is important to a group and why. It treats discussion as not a war to the death, but a virtue.

Pagar

Happy Birthday to Clarice and everyone who has today as their special day.

Kim, I can't get that link to work. Is it the Phil Bulletin?

Here's a demonstration that I predict the Obamabots will not allow to happen!

"SUPREME COURT STEPS FRIDAY DEC 5 8:00AM

Be part of the solution.
SAVE THE CONSTITUITION

LUN

Hope we have someone reporting from there.


kim

Yes it is, Pagar. I've checked; it's the right URL.
==============================

kim

Oops, no space between 'the' and 'bulletin'. Should be:

www.thebulletin.us/site/news.cfm?newsid=20210273
=================================

clarice

Special thanks to JMH for the musical tribute..And Happy Birthday to Tops and Mrs H and R, too!

kim

Special birthday present for clarice: 600 pages of US v. Wong Kim Ark. What do you think of the argument, with Supreme Court precedence, that dual allegiance prevents 'natural born citizenship'?
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bad

Thomas Collins, I never scroll past your comments, do enjoy them very much, and usually learn something new. Keep up the good work, you are appreciated.

clarice

kim, I think it's a silly argument. More significantly so does Professor Volokh.The Wong Kim case is interesting because it affirmed his citizenship by virtue of birth here despite the Chinese Exclusion Act and the considerable prejudice against Chinese immigrants.

kim

I can't find where Volokh finds this a silly argument. And affirming citizenship by birth here despite anti-Chinese prejudice doesn't speak to the legal reasoning Leo Donofrio is using.
================================

kim

In that case, there was no definable allegiance to China. In this case, Obama has admitted dual citizenship, lapsed later, and that implies alien allegiance at birth, hence no 'natural born citizenship'. Once again, I can't find where Volokh has addressed this.
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kim

Whew, Benjamin and Donofrio are slamming each other over this issue, both making the same point, that Obama's admitted dual allegiance at birth prevents him from meeting the precise definition of a 'natural born citizen' as required by the Constitution.
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Elliott

admitted dual allegiance at birth

If he admitted that at birth, he truly is worthy of bgates' carols. Otherwise, I think that argument is ridiculous.

kim

He agrees that he had dual citizenship at birth, but that it lapsed later, I think adulthood. Donofrio and Benjamin both seem to think the dual citizenship prevents 'natural born citizenship' as defined in Supreme Court case law precedent. The rub is that it is going to be difficult to sell this concept if, in fact, he was born in Hawai'i. I'm beginning to wonder if Obama has been holding his vault copy as a trump in case this precedent is upheld by the Supreme Court.

It's going to be very interesting to see what the Supreme Court does on Friday. Among the things on the docket are a request for an emergency stay of the results of the election.
==============================

kim

This is creeping into the MSM. As bad noted, AOL news mentioned it yesterday, and Fox News had a very brief mention of it today. The Chicago Tribune full page ad yesterday generated so much reaction that the newspaper may not run the ad as scheduled for tomorrow.
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kim

The Kansas City Star has an error filled article about the eligibility controversy today. Donofrio exposes the errors at naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com

The issue is that being born as a British subject excludes him from the Presidency on Constitutional grounds, with Supreme Court case law precedent. Donofrio claims that his case has been referred for conference by the whole Court, and not just Thomas.
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kim

He gets around it all if the birth certificate genuinely shows Hawai'i, and father unknown, or not Barack Obama Sr. He can claim that he didn't know the truth when he wrote his books, and half the country will be happy to forgive his deception for the last six months.

Still can't find where Volokh addresses this.
==================================

matt

Obama's father was a Kenyan citizen, so until the age of 18, Barack probably had the option of keeping both. If he in fact declared for his US citizenship when 18, then there is no issue. You can't fault a man for his parent's citizenship.

kim

Well, read a little more. It was not an option. If his father was Barack Obama Sr. then he was a British Colonial subject. The Constitution was written to prevent people with such dual allegiance from gaining the Presidency. Subsequent Supreme Court case law gives precedent for declaring him not a 'natural born citizen' by definition. See also Perkins v. Elg. And see the work of Leo Donofrio at naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com

We also don't have any idea what he declared at age 18. There are some who think he was an Indonesian citizen after his adoption by Soetoro. Many others think his Selective Service registration from 1980 was forged last year. This is a flim-flam man, who is pretty clearly hiding something, maybe many things. What are they?

Matt, the kind of objection you have seems to make sense, and will certainly be argued if he turns out ineligible, but case law precedent should rule. We are a nation of laws, right?
=====================================

kim

I think that part of the distinction is from the British Empire. They allowed citizenship for children of British subjects no matter where they were born. This is not necessarily the case with other countries.
==================================

Daddy

Haven't had the chance to read the thread comments above, but I just hope that whoever appears on Gregory's show, in response to his questioning, starts spouting lines, relavant or not, such as:

"You mean at Dick Cheney's behest?" or

"I heard that too" etc.

You folks will know a ton of such quotes MSNBC has peddled over the last few years to destroy Bush/Libby/Cheney, etc, so I suggest we don't let them forget it by constantly reminding them of it. Gregory is never going to answer the straightforward questions TM rightly suggests should be put to him, but let's use the meme's that are out there to remind them of their perfidy.

Can't wait for "1 by 2 by 6" to make it's reappearance.

Daddy

Sorry, Thought I was on the Gregory thread.

kim

Obama has admitted dual citizenship, and claims his Kenyan(British Colonial at birth) citizenship lapsed as an adult. I think when he claimed that that he didn't realize there was case law making him ineligible in such a case. Oh, what tangled webs he has woven. Donofrio is pulling on one of the strings.
===================================

kim

Well, I like this. The Chicago Tribune article about the full-page citizenship ad in the Chicago Tribune, has over 1200 on-line comments. The article is not bad about the controversy but misses two key points, that Obama was a British subject at birth, and that Hawai'ian officials, though swearing that an authentic birth certificate is on file, refuse to say where the birthplace on that certificate is. Because of Hawai'ian law at the time, he could have a genuine vault copy on file in Hawai'i and still be born elsewhere. This is a tangled web.

The Supreme Court can, should, and I believe will straighten this out.
=======================================

kim

I've actually caught Donofrio in a conundrum. I commented on his site that if there is an authentic vault copy with a genuine Hawai'ian birthplace but with 'Father unknown' or listing a father who is an American citizen, then Donofrio's case falls apart. He doesn't seem to want to accept that, and other commenters are now similarly perplexed.

I believe Obama can work around the tangled web in such a case. He could simply say he didn't know the truth when his books were written, and half the American people and all of the press will be happy to excuse any deception he has practiced since then. One problem, as listed above, is that he's admitted this year that he was a British subject at birth. At least it has appeared on his website; God only knows what he'll say if pressed. I take that back. God probably doesn't know either.
=======================================

kim

Such a situation could explain the forged COLB that first appeared on the 'Fight the Smears' site. From its mysterious origins, he can deny responsibility for that one too. Oh, my, what a guy. He makes Bill Clinton look like a tyro liar.
====================================

Pofarmer

I think when he claimed that that he didn't realize there was case law making him ineligible in such a case.

Uhmmmm, the guy is a Harvard educated Professor of Constitutional Law. I would have hoped it would have dawned on him to look it up. (sarc)

I've actually caught Donofrio in a conundrum. I commented on his site that if there is an authentic vault copy with a genuine Hawai'ian birthplace but with 'Father unknown' or listing a father who is an American citizen, then Donofrio's case falls apart.

If that's the case then fine, great, super, at least the American public knows. That's what it's all about anyway. The people, indeed, have a right to know, at least as much as we needed to know about Jack Ryan's SEALED divorce papers.

kim

I'm haunted by the thought that Obama's holding a valid Hawai'ian birth certificate as a trump card.
=======================

kim

Yes, Pofarmer, I think he recognized the Constitutional difficulties, and that explains all the chicanery since.

I'm also intrigued by the fact, if true, that the whole Supreme Court referred Donofrio's case to conference on Friday, and not just Justice Thomas. If so, something may be brewing.
========================================

kim

Rick Montgomery, reporter for the Kansas City Star, who had a story about this today, has called Donofrio and straightened out some of the errors in his article. He had thought the case was about the birth certificate and it's not; it's about the dual allegiance, which stymies 'natural born citizen'. Maybe we'll see a corrected article.
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clarice

Volokh has admitted errod and now says that if O was born outside the US of a Kenyan father and a US mother who was not 19, he would not be a natural born citizen.

http://volokh.com/posts/1227910730.shtml

This is how I read the law but backed off when I read Volokh figuring he knew what he was talking about.

So, to be a natural born citizen under the facts as we know them, O had to be born in the US.

All that nonsense about dual citizenship seems ridiculous to me and doesn't change the fact that if he was born here and did not as an adult voluntarily and unreservedly relinquish his US citizen he remains a natural born citizen.

Pofarmer

Clarice

What if he retained Indonesian Citizenship after he turned 18? He went to Pakistan on and Indonesian passport, correct? I really think that's a bigger deal.

kim

What about Perkins v. Elg? The term 'natural born citizen' was initially used, and subsequently upheld in case law, to prevent people with British allegiance from becoming President.
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Rick Ballard

"did not as an adult voluntarily and unreservedly relinquish his US citizen he remains a natural born citizen."

Clarice,

Doesn't that lead to Indonesian law on dual citizenship and the question of what passport he used in his dope smuggling trips visits to Pakistan? If he renewed his Indonesian passport when he returned to visit his mother in Indonesia (as an adult over 18), then he did so under Indonesian law which - at that time - did not permit dual citizenship. Pretty entertaining stuff.

kim

Pofarmer, I don't think it is settled that he went to Pakistan on an Indonesian passport. It's just another thing that has been concealed. But, if he did, Katie bar the door.
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kim

Maybe one reason the passport files were broken in to by his thugs.
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kim

clarice, it is not, not, not, just the place of birth at issue; it's the British allegiance.
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kim

Well, at least you've yielded to 'seems ridiculous'. Donofrio claims that the case law in Perkins v. Elg, and US v. Wong Kim Ark show that the British allegiance prevents the 'natural born citizenship'.

Truly, I'm not sophisticated enough legally to determine. What I notice is that most people are missing Donofrio's point. Maybe the Justices won't.
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clarice

kim, I feel certain we've discussed this before. In recent cases by SCOTUS it's been held that much more needs to be done then even fighting for another country's army to constitute relinquishment of US citizenship. In other words there is a greater acceptance of dual citizenship..All of that however is a separate question from the very arcane one of whether he is a natural born citizen. If he was born here he is.
To date, there is no evidence I can see that he relinquished that citizenship.

kim

As I've pointed out, with all the hullaballoo about the birth certificate, if it turns out that he was born in Hawai'i, it is going to be a hard sell telling the electorate that Obama is ineligible. But Supreme Court case law precedent and the language of the Constitution ought to be what decides this matter.
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kim

You still miss the point. He does not have to have relinquished his US citizenship in order to be ineligible. Just the fact that he had British Colonial citizenship at birth negates the 'natural born citizenship' as defined in the Constitution and in precedent case law, those being US v. Wong Kim Ark and Perkins v. Elg.
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kim

It 'seems ridiculous' to you that if he were born here he is anything but a 'natural born citizen'. Case law may 'seem ridiculous', but in this case it may be compelling precedent. We are a nation of laws, right? And not one of whatever 'seems' right.
==============================

kim

I grant it is an arcane point. Big money in lawsuits often turns on 'arcane' points. Isn't that why we have lawyers?
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Pagar

Kim, I want to thank you for keeping up with so much of the BC mess. I read the Chicago Tribune article and started to read the comments but got so uptight over them that I quit. I can't believe there are so many people that absolutely don't care rather the person who will be president meets the absolute minimum standards of the Constitution, let alone the standards of common sense (like has he accomplished anything in his life).

Here's some sites I haven't seen mentioned:

"We already know that Obama’s family and the entire nation of Kenya (which is about to have a national holiday for Obama) know that Barack Obama was born in Mombasa Coastal Hospital in Kenya. The government of Kenya has sealed these records. More and more secrecy due to the fact that once proven, Obama will not be constitutionally allowed to become President of the United States!

All of these were called from November 20 - December 2nd 2008. It is confirmed, OBAMA not born in any hospital in Honolulu County! NONE FACT!
Hospitals you can check yourself

The Queen’s Medical Center - Honolulu, Hawaii Obama claims as his birth hospital

Kapi’ olani Medical Center Obama’s sister claims Barack Obama born here
Honolulu Shriners Hospital Never a patient Mom or Obama
Straub Clinic & Hospital Never a patient Mom or Obama
Hawaii Health Systems Corporation - Honolulu, Hawaii Never a patient Mom or Obama
Cancer Institute of Maui - Wailuku, Hawaii No Comment ???

Kuakini Hospital - Honolulu, Hawaii Never a patient Mom or Obama
Rehabilitation Hospital of the Pacific - Honolulu, Hawaii Never a patient Mom or Obama
St. Francis Healthcare System of Hawaii - Hawaii Never a patient Mom or Obama
Straub Heatlh - Honolulu, Hawaii Never a patient Mom or Obama
Tripler Medical Center - Honolulu, Hawaii Never a patient Mom or Obama
Wahiawa General Hospital - Wahiawa, Hawaii Never a patient Mom or Obama
Wilcox Memorial Hospital - Lihue, Kauai, Hawaii Never a patient Mom or Obama

LUN

kim

And I still don't think Volokh has addressed Donofrio's point.
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kim

Oh yeah, Pagar, and his Selective Service registration is probably forged, too.
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Pofarmer

I think typepad ate my comment.

What if he had Indonesian citizenship past the point of 18? Didn't he travel to Pakistan on an Indonesian passport? My understanding is that Indonesia doesn't allow dual citizenship?

kim

Oh, yeah, over 1200 comments, just today, on the Tribune article is fervor.

I'm a little troubled by the survey of hospitals. Are the hospitals allowed to give out that information?
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clarice

Natural born citizenship is not affected by the law of another country. It doesn't matter that Indonesia still considers him a citizen or that Kenya once did.

kim

If it can be shown that he had an Indonesian passport past the age of 18, then he's got trouble. I haven't seen that evidence. I believe that contention arose from the belief people have that Americans weren't allowed to travel to Pakistan when he did, and I don't believe that is true.
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clarice

If someone can prove he was born elsewhere, there's a case. I don't think it's been made, but YMMV.

Pofarmer

O.K., now I've double posted. Anyway. I still think it's funny he won't simply clear this up. I was reading somewhere the other night, that a Dim operative had went to Indonesia and paid big bucks(by indonesian standards) to Sanitize the records of him there. The whole thing is just surreal.

kim

I almost agree with your 6:14 comment with the caveat about British allegiance. That still doesn't speak to the definition of 'natural born citizen' in the Constitution and in case law.
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clarice

I am a natural born US citizen. I probably am eligible for an EU passport and citizenship because my father was born in Poland when it was an independent state. I caould also get an Israeli passport because of that country's law of return. My husband could also obtain a Canadian passport because his father was a citizen of Canada and their law would permit that. We could carry all these passports and use them for convenience sake wherever we wished. It sould not change the fact that I'm a natural born citizen of the US.
The fact of applying for these passports and using them would not constitute relinquishment of my US citizenship either. To do that, I'd have to do something like go to the US Embassy and in front of witnesses say (as an adult) that i hereby relinquish unequivocally my US citizenship.

clarice

*** It Would not change the fact that I'm a natural born citizen of the US.**

Pofarmer

The other really weird thing, is that when the COLB thing was wound up before the election, he decides to go visit poor ole dying granny, and then can't be bothered to go to the funeral?

kim

clarice, Donofrio claims that the Constitution didn't want people born with British allegiance past a certain point in time to be eligible for the office of the President and he further claims that the case law in those two cases cited define eligibility such that if one is born with British allegiance, then one is not a natural born citizen. I've not the sophistication to read those cases with understanding. I'm depending on Donofrio's skill, but most of his critics don't even understand his point let alone refute it.
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kim

The Supreme Court will understand his point. Whether or not they sustain it is the BIG question. That's why I'm impressed with the news, if true, that the whole court referred it to conference, and not just Justice Thomas.
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kim

clarice, re 6:21, that is exactly what Donofrio is claiming. It would negate natural born citizenship, in an arcane fashion.
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kim

Oh, sorry, I didn't read your 6:20 comment before responding to your 6:21 comment. You are talking about different facts than the case of Obama. You were born a natural born citizen; Obama was not, if, in fact, his father was a Colonial British subject.
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clarice

Our notions of citizenship have changed substantially since those early cases, this is an issue with little case law, and the statutory definitions subsequently passed would seem to adequately cover this situation. Surely you realize Donofrio is not a neutral commenter.

kim

Were you and your husband's fathers naturalized at the time of your births? I don't know about Poland, but if your husband's father was still a Canadian citizen at the time of your husband's birth, then your husband may be a native born citizen, but not a 'natural born citizen' according to the fine and precise definition thereof. We are talking about an arcane point.

By the way, until this is settled, I don't think you need to go running to your husband and destroying his dreams of becoming President.
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clarice

kim--I'm finished arguing with you on this point. The statute defines natural born citizenship and if O was born here, no matter where his father was born or what that country says, O would be a natural born citizen in my view.And in Volokh's. OTOH we don't have a horse in this race and Donofrio does so I take it that makes him MORE credible in your eyes.

kim

Perkins v. Elg is 1939, and I'd need to be shown the statutory law that overwhelms the Supreme Court case law precedent. Sure, I know Donofrio is not neutral. I'm counting on the Supreme Court Justices being neutral. I presume your point about more recent statutes would arise in oral arguments? We shall see, if it gets that far.
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kim

Now clarice, I don't see the statute that defines 'natural born citizen' to your views. I don't see where Volokh shows it either. I'm sypathetic to your desire to stop arguing about it. Frankly, I don't know the truth of the matter, but I don't see that Donofrio has been refuted. His partiality is irrelevant under the law.
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kim

Frankly, clarice, the argument you make about credibility at 6:34 is beneath you.
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clarice

From the Elg headnotes:
"6. The Act of March 2, 1907, in providing "That any American citizen shall be deemed to have expatriated himself when he has been naturalized in any foreign state in conformity with its laws, . . . " was aimed at voluntary expatriation, and was not intended to destroy the right of a native citizen, removed from this country during minority, to elect to retain the citizenship acquired by birth and to return here for that purpose, even though he may be deemed to have been naturalized under the foreign law by derivation from the citizenship of his parents before he came of age. P. 307 U. S. 342. "

clarice

I'm sorry you feel that way. Kim, but frankly my eyes glaze over at the huge quantity of misinformation that circulates the IT on this issue..and the impossibility of narrowing it to the one true issue=--where was O born?

kim

There are a lot of definitions in Elg, and I think it is to those that Donofrio refers.

And I beg to differ with you. The most compelling issue is where he was born; the true issue may be the precise definition of 'natural born citizen' in the Constitution and in case law precedent.
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Elliott

Here's a summary of dual citizenship cases.

Should they ever meet, will it be remarked upon that President Obama was once a subject of Elizabeth II?


Elliott

the precise definition of 'natural born citizen' in the Constitution and in case law precedent.

The Supreme Court declared both Elg and Ark to be natural born citizens.

kim

Yes, Elliott, the facts in those cases and the facts in Obama's are different. It is the arguments within those cases to which Donofrio refers. Also, were Ark and Elg determined to be 'natural born' or 'native born'. I don't know, and I can't explain the difference, but I believe there is one. The Constitution refers to 'natural born'. You are all illustrating the problem that will arise if Obama is determined to have been born in Hawai'i, but still technically ineligible for the Presidency.

Pretty obviously, the Constitution didn't want people born with British allegiance after a certain date to be eligible for the Presidency. To the best of my understanding, the arguments in Ark and Elg sustain that desire.
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Wilson/Plame