Le Plus Ca Change

Here is a disturbing story:

American teens lie, steal, cheat at 'alarming' rates: study

LOS ANGELES (AFP) — American teenagers lie, steal and cheat more at "alarming rates," a study of nearly 30,000 high school students concluded Monday.

The attitudes and conduct of some 29,760 high school students across the United States "doesn't bode well for the future when these youngsters become the next generation's politicians and parents, cops and corporate executives, and journalists and generals," the non-profit Josephson Institute said.

In its 2008 Report Card on the Ethics of American Youth, the Los Angeles-based organization said the teenagers' responses to questions about lying, stealing and cheating "reveals entrenched habits of dishonesty for the workforce of the future."

Boys were found to lie and steal more than girls.

Overall, 30 percent of students admitted to stealing from a store within the past year, a two percent rise from 2006. More than one third of boys (35 percent) said they had stolen goods, compared to 26 percent of girls.

An overwhelming majority, 83 percent, of public school and private religious school students admitted to lying to their parents about something significant, compared to 78 percent for those attending independent non-religious schools.

"Cheating in school continues to be rampant and it's getting worse," the study found. Amongst those surveyed, 64 percent said they had cheated on a test, compared to 60 percent in 2006. And 38 percent said they had done so two or more times.

All that is missing from this story is a baseline - are kids these days really that much better or worse than formerly?  Here is more from the Josephson Institute:

Josephson Institute Report Card

The numbers are in, and they don’t look good. Nearly half of all high schoolers say they steal. Seven in 10 admit to cheating on an exam within the previous 12 months. And roughly one in four high school males says he took a weapon to school in the last year.

...

Honesty and integrity

“This report card shows that the hole in our moral ozone is getting bigger,” says Michael Josephson, founder and president of the Institute, which publishes a new Report Card every two years. “In terms of honesty and integrity, things are going from very bad to worse.”

• Forty-seven       percent of all respondents admit they stole something from a store in the       previous 12-month period – up from 39 percent from the [previous] survey.
                       
• Almost all       teenagers admit to lying. Ninety-two percent of the high schoolers say they lied at least once in the past year and more than one in three say they would lie to get a good job.
                       
• Curiously, 91       percent report that they’re “satisfied with my own ethics and character” despite the fact that only 69 percent of the high schoolers (compared to 98 percent in middle school) say they’re satisfied with the ethics and character of their generation.

Dismal!  But my bad - that second excerpt was from the 1998 Josephson study.  Apparently things have been getting worse for a decade but the numbers haven't actually changed much; in fact, the store theft figure is down, as is the lying (if the questions are comparable).

Well.  The Josephson people seem to earn their admirable non-profit living in part by promoting training in ethics, so we can see why they might be inclined to highlight the issue.

Comments

[kim]

Look where it gets you, the Office of the President Elect. Hahvahd in now offering post graduate degrees in Teleprompting.
===============================

[kim]

Sure it's not 'La plus ca change'? Shall I cheat and look it up, or just guess?
========================

[clarice]

Trouble. Right here in River City.

Though some behaviors really do seem worse. I understand there's lots of cheating on resumes which seems not only unethical but dangerous.

[kim]

Yeah, like considering yourself eligible for the Presidency when you have dual allegiance determined at birth.
==========================

[sbw]

Fascinating to look at a timeline back to about 1900, looking at literature, philosophy, and sociology. Threads run through it all.

At issue is how to reclaim society from the post World War I and II shocks to the traditional social framework. Existentialism didn't cause the problem, it described it. What can replace a culture-based ethical system that needs to work across cultures that share no traditions.

As it happens, we are running an editorial today called "Lying" that speaks to that one facet.

It can be done.

[MayBee]

Almost all teenagers admit to lying. Ninety-two percent of the high schoolers say they lied at least once in the past year and more than one in three say they would lie to get a good job.

I would suspect the 8% that said they didn't lie in the last year are lying.
I think cheating on resumes is dangerous, but it depends on what 'lying' to get a good job actually means. I would lie about my confidence level, or my greatest flaw.

[Thomas Collins]

"For in everything that grows the initial sprouting, if nobly directed, has a sovereign influence in bringing about the perfection in virtue that befits the thing's own virtue. This holds for other growing things, and for animals--tame, wild, and human." From Plato's Laws 765e (Thomas Pangle's translation).

I realize that "the youth are going to pot" (always figuratively and, in the case of many Baby Boomers, literally) has been the refrain about the young throughout the ages (I wonder what hieroglyphics expressed the thought). Still, different types of education nurture different aspects of developing youth. I wonder whether our education system would nurture the sprouts of our future in a finer manner if it focused on bringing perfection in virtue as opposed to boosting self-esteem.

[Birthday Fairy]

The Culinary Clarice Countdown, #5:
When there is good bread and olive oil to be had, I am incapable of resistance.

[MayBee]

In related news, I realize how old I'm getting when I hear 1998 and am shocked to learn it was a decade ago.

[clarice]

Wait till you're a bit older and you realize most of the familiar landmarks in your city have been ripped down or redone out of all recognition and the people you knew dead or gaga. Then tell me you're old.

[cathyf]

In related news, I realize how old I'm getting when I hear 1998 and am shocked to learn it was a decade ago.

What she said!

[Thomas Collins]

I guess this is the place to discuss the sins of my youth.

1. I once signed another student's deficiency slip. He claimed he wasn't trying to hide bad grades from his parents, but had forgotten to have his parents sign the slip.

2. I was banned from my high school loudspeaker for inappropriate language (the only time anyone in my class was so banned).

There, I feel better now.

[Soylent Red]

First...Clarice, TSK9, Mrs. Hit - Have the happiest of happy birthdays today.

Back on-topic...

At the risk of being labeled a curmudgeon, this all comes as no surprise to me.

The most frequently emulated role models are pop culture figures who glamorize conspicuous consumption and who advocate a "By any means necessary" attitude toward achieving success. Not lying or cheating or stealing. You're just a "hustla" or a "playa".

Success itself being defined as conspicuous consumption and notoriety (different than fame). People debasing themselves for the chance at fifteen minutes of fame and a book deal. Or at least a good run in the checkout stand tabloids.

Helicopter parents who have spent most of their lives given little Johnny (Rotten) everything his heart desires and covering for his every maladjusted move.

Hypercompetitive sports and academics. Children taking dietary "supplements" to enhance performance in Pop Warner league sports. "Club" sports leagues. Rehab surgeries before the age of 15. Endless rounds of pre-SATs to ensure that Our Little Triumph of Public Education performs well on the real ones. Grade school "transcripts".

Finally, and probably most importantly, the reduced legitimacy of religion, patriotism and family cohesion. These are "old" concepts, or "xenophobic", or any of the other liberal buzzwords.

Roll all of these together and sprinkle in a good dose of nihilistic moral relativism and you get children who lie, cheat and steal (not to mention start screwing anything that isn't nailed to the floor by the age of 15) without twinge of conscience. Then they grow up and teach their progeny that such behavior is normal. On their way to trampling someone to death to get a big screen TV.

[bad]

2. I was banned from my high school loudspeaker for inappropriate language (the only time anyone in my class was so banned).

Were you using words of more than one syllabel?

[bad]

**syllable**

[clarice]

Off topic, but I have to run out for a bit and can't take time to find a more appropriate thread and this is about change:

"The real gamble in this election is playing the same Washington game with the same Washington players and expecting a different result."

-Barack Obama, December 27, 2007

[Rick Ballard]

Thomas Collins,

The direction in which the sapling has been inclined is more easily discerned through later examination of the tree. I continue to peruse the credit data thoughtfully provided by the NY Fed and was somewhat dismayed to discover that 50% of the ARM problem (measured by dollar volume of REO) is located in California. Apparently a great many of the miscreant youth identified in the cite above moved to CA and continued to lie and steal on a somewhat more than retail basis.

In fact, they appear to have stolen enough to undercut the "If we mix a little bad in with the good, no one will notice" rationale for the existence of MBS. MBS might have tottered along, dragging the ball and chain of the CRA idiocy, but the additional weight of lying suburbanites in CA was simply too great a burden.

Perhaps ten years in a tight FICO collar will provide the education in reality needed to mend the problem?

[Soylent Red]

bad:

I'm sure they were "mean spirited" or "divisive". Whatever the case, they were a "distraction".

He probably said "God".

[Thomas Collins]

Bad and Soylent Red, I'm concerned that if I use the word here, TM will ban me!

Let me use code here. It starts $chmu, and the last two letters are the one before d in the alphabet and the one before l in the alphabet. I thought it was an expression meaning jerk, but my Assistant Principal said it referred to a part of the male anatomy not to be mentioned on school loudspeakers, and that he didn't believe me that I thought it meant jerk. I must have been in my rhetorical flourish mindset, because I calmly instructed (in a voice I think he mistook for yelling) the Assistant Principal not to tell me what I was thinking. Needless to say, I was lucky that my only punishment was being banned from the loudspeaker.

My friends found all of this amusing. There was a great debate on the meaning of the word (one of them said that it is a Yiddish expression that was used to call someone a jerk but also could refer to an unmentionable male part). A teacher told me she was offended. I never tracked down the etymology of the word.

[cathyf]

I'm also somewhat leery of "ethics education". I am the involuntary observer to way more Disney Channel, Nick, PBSKids, etc. than any adult should have to endure, and a staple of these shows is the kid does something dishonest, goes through hilarious hijinks trying to extricate him/herself from the resulting pickle, all of which make the situation far worse, until finally the kid is forced to own up and get rescued by adults.

I've wondered sometimes if the kids aren't getting the perverse version of the message -- that you should hold out until the hilarious hijinks start. Of course in real life people mostly get away with dishonesty -- the whole point of real moral formation is that your conscience knows, and God knows, and that should be sufficient. Another aspect of this is that people engage in risk-taking in order to experience the adrenaline surge of thinking that they are going to get caught. Again, when the moral of the story is that the wages of dishonesty are very exciting and entertaining, while the rewards to honesty are boring and humdrum, then you're selling the wrong message.

[Captain Hate]

I raised my children to always tell me the truth; they'd still get punished if they did something wrong but if they lied to me and I found out (and I impressed on them that I'd always find out) it would be far worse for them. I'm pretty confident it worked because I've never been confronted with anything after the parental statute of limitations expired.

[Thomas Collins]

A FICO collar might help, Rick Ballard, unless Chris Dodd et al pass legislation mandating that lenders must loan to folks with at least a 400 FICO score. I can just see it now. The "Everyone's A Friend of Angelo Consumer Borrowing Enhancement Act of 2008."

[MayBee]

Bill O'Reilly covered this last night, and is going to be talking over the next few days about how bad our kids today are. He says it is because parents don't make them face any kind of consequences for outrageous behavior (and computer games desensitize them).

The feature on this subject O'Rielly is going to feature tonight is a group of high school cheerleaders who posted naked pictures of themselves on the internet, and now the parents are going to sue the school.

My boys have promised they will watch this segment- indeed study it- as a way to improve their morality.

[bad]

My boys have promised they will watch this segment- indeed study it- as a way to improve their morality.

Thanks for the heads-up. My husband and sons will want to improve their morality as well.

I'll bet O'really studied those naked internet pictures real hard in preparation for tonight's feature.

[PDinDetroit]

Ditto what Capt said.

I always added "I will stand with and defend you if you tell me the truth. If you lie, you will be on your own".

[DrJ]

I'll bet O'really studied those naked internet pictures real hard in preparation for tonight's feature.

If history is any guide, I'd think he would be more interested if their telephone numbers were available. You know, for phone-sex research. For the show.

Oh, and Happy Birthday Clarice!

Slow start today...

[Enlightened]

Well...as if you couldn't tell....I was all of the above in my youth. Rotten to the core.

My first infraction, I stole squirt guns (with my brothers) and a Playboy (with a girlfriend at the time, I only remember Jayne Mansfield was in it - in a bathtub) from the corner 7/11 when I was about 7 or 8 - my dad found the squirt guns, and made us return them and say we are sorry, and we got our asses spanked. The Playboy got left in the orchard where we peeked at it...

That started my illustrious career as the Black Sheep in our family. I played competitive sports (Bobby Sox softball), for many years, I met my first lesbian in that sport. I lied to everyone about everything, I snuck out of the house at night and came home in the morning right before Dad left for work, I smoked (and still do) I drank, did drugs, cheated on tests, stole money from my parents and grandparents, got in a free-for-all fist fight with a gang of lesbians at a Der Weinerschnitzel because we thought we (a gang of cheerleaders and not lesbians) thought we could just saunter into a gay bar and no one would notice, I went to a very desired and expensive Catholic high school, (yep, I'm one of those "Catholic Girls)I finished a year of college and promptly got sucked into Disco Fever and all that crap, and sadly even had an abortion, which resulted in me being infertile (my just reward IMO). FINALLY at the age of 30 I stopped it all and got married and settled down (somewhat) and have been trying to repent for about 20 years now. Hopefully I have another 30 or 40 to go....I never got in trouble with Johnny Law, but the emotional baggage I carry is tremendous and I wouldn't wish it on any of these kids....and sadly, even though I tell every kid I know, do NOT do this, that or the other, they simply do not listen because they think they know it all.

My son (step)thankfully has not followed in my footsteps, so I got that part right...

[Soylent Red]

I was a beautiful and saintly child, and never did any wrong. I was a friend to all the world.

[Barney Frank]

Der Weinerschnitzels are gay bars? Who knew?
Makes a certain kind of sense when you stop to think about it though.

[Rick Ballard]

"have been trying to repent for about 20 years now"

Not exactly, Enlightened. Repentance means to turn away - you did that twenty years ago. I hope that you find the time to study all of the aspects of repentance. It would be a wonderful experience for you to finally drop weight which you need not carry (IMO). I think I'll stick that on my "hope" list.

Regret may endure but the purpose of regret is to remind. When it has served its purpose then it may be safely shelved (on the off chance that temptation might arise and require a ward).

[caveat bettor]

There may be an adjustment required for girls lying more.

More here:

http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/equal-cheats.html

[PD]

Soylent: We never considered anything else could be true.

[sbw]

...and computer games desensitize them

I don't buy that. There is a difference between fantasy and reality.

It is absurd for anyone to believe that while the person doing the talking can tell the difference, other people cannot.

[Enlightened]

"It would be a wonderful experience for you to finally drop weight which you need not carry...

True enough...a consequence of some genetics and low self esteem, (although professionally I'm pretty successful) The excess weight is a constant reminder of drugs and weighing about 100 lbs at one point, and so over compensated with food for 20 years, assuming it was healthier to over-eat.

So I'm 50, I started weight watchers (and seem to be succeeding) and am little by little shit-canning the "baggage". My hubby and I think in this bizarro world it's time to start traveling light - so we are getting healthy, finally getting rid of junk that has no purpose whatsoever, even some of the sentimental stuff needs to go...Got my pre-menopause green-light, so I just want to simplify EVERYTHING or else I just cry over everything. I want to get rid of every little frustrating POS, so if I'm having hot flashes and crying jags at least I don't have to clean the damn house and 8 million useless tchotchkes.

[Soylent Red]

PD: Have any interest in beachfront real estate or bridges?

[Soylent Red]

My hubby and I think in this bizarro world it's time to start traveling light

Enlightened:

I have found, even at my youthful age, that once a person mentally transitions from being an "effect" to being a "cause", small things like misspent youth cease to bother.

Two keys:

1. Be in control of what you can control. Getting your possessions lean and mobile is a good and relatively simple first step.

2. Quit taking responsibility for other people's misery. Everyone is responsible for their own happiness.

[JM Hanes]

"83 percent, of public school and private religious school students admitted to lying to their parents about something significant"

Show me a kid who hasn't lied to a parent, and I'll show you.... shoot, is there really any need to specify what I'd show you? Did they provide comparative figures on this one? It's certainly an improvement on the 100% I'd have predicted. I suspect the angelic 17% just set the threshold for "signifiant" a few stops higher than the devilish majority.

[Rick Ballard]

Walking expedites the entire enlightening process. At least it does for me. I find it relieves the stress of the approach of the dismal solstice (in the instance when I forget that there is a radiant solstice always in arrival).

[clarice]

I was perfect. Still am. Just like Soylent which is why we're friends.
Here's one good thing about getting old, you forget all the truly rotten things you did and have only a vague sense that you aren't perfect and shouldn't expect perfection of anyone else.

That word which cannot be posted here is Yiddish is does mean the male member and it is used to mean a jerk. Putz is the same thing. Ooops!!!!!!

[JM Hanes]

MayBee:

"...and now the parents are going to sue the school."

That shifting of repsonsibility really strikes me as the underlying cultural change.

[clarice]

Enlightened..I always planned to go thru life traveling light--somehow I own about 150 chairs and God knows how many sets of dishes. Oh, well, if my kids annoy me I'll leave it all for them to sort out and dispose of.

[glasater]

Ya know--I think this self esteem thing is overrated.

What happened to all that shame and guilt I grew up with?:-)

[Enlightened]

Walking is great! We walk every day with our dog, 30 minutes minimum.....I have a beautiful fluffy, smiley face white Samoyed that has a problem crapping in our backyard, and will only do so on his walk, and will hold it for hours until dad and mom get motivated to do the poop walk... so I get to keep that little frustration of pooper scooping...

I really don't dwell on my past, and I only regret not being a biological mom, BUT I am reminded constantly by my perfect(not) 4 sisters and 2 brothers, and lovely mom and dad, of what a shit I was....hey in our family you sink or swim on your own - I'll never live any of it down, and now it's been passed onto the next generation - Aunta's Naughty Adventures, every holiday season it's "Remember When Aunta........"

I also happen to be the favorite sister, daughter and auntie because of my checkered past and colorful naughty stories....so six of one, half a dozen of the other....

[centralcal]

"I was a beautiful and saintly child . . ."

. . . and then became a yucky teenager. Luckily, I married youngish and eventually became a parent, so I shaped up pretty much.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[glenda waggoner]

Have a Happy Day, Clarice, today and always!

[Enlightened]

Clarice - I am a hopeless, sentimental romantic. I keep EVERYTHING - Grandma's chairs, Grandmas rusted MixMaster, baseball tickets, concert tickets, Grandmas old pink nightie - EVERYTHING.

My husband, OTOH, had grandparents that were hoarders. They had paths running through the house in between their junk. His parents are close to being hoarders and he is PETRIFIED that I might go that way...thankfully I lived with my grandmother for 15 years and she hated "stuff" so I like some stuff, but keep it to a minimum...

So my hubby is secretly high fiving the gods that I am getting rid of "stuff"...I'm donating it all to our local homeless mission, so he thinks that's pretty cool - gets him off the garage sale train too...

It feels pretty liberating to get rid of stuff I haven't used in 20 years...but every closet in my house is full, we have two sheds in the yard - full. AND a 2nd home at the lake - full.

I've got a lot of work to do......

[JM Hanes]

Enlightened:

Hence your screen name? There are so many ways to get there, aren't there?

I have three siblings, all currently upstanding, productive members of society. One sister broke every rule in books I didn't even know existed. I was later shocked to discover that my perfect eldest sister broke some "significant" rules too -- she was just more discreet. I wanted to stray a whole lot further than I actually did, but I just didn't have the skilz to avoid apprehension, so I really only qualify for scared straight status. My observant younger brother quietly managed to go his own independent way without leaving much in the way of a telltale wake one way or the other. When folks argue nature/nurture, I look at my own family and end up thinking that those terms are more convenient than useful.

[JM Hanes]

Holy shades of storage units!

[bad]

Way to go Enlightened.

[bgates]

public school and private religious school students
That's an odd pairing, isn't it? Why compare public, non-religious schools and private religious schools on the one hand to private non-religious schools on the other? Unless there is some difference between the latter two one wants to obscure.

[PDinDetroit]

Enlightened - I was right there with you girl.

One phase says it all: I thought I could get a higher education by smoking my diploma. Funny thing is, I dropped out before I could get that far. I never did anything with my life until I decided that I was worth it (mid 20's and wasn't going to make it much longer).

Now, I am living in my 20th year clean and sober. I went back to HS and finished the classes I needed to graduate. I went to college and graduated Summa Cum Laude in Information Systems. I got married and had 2 children. I moved up through the ranks and now hold the position of Chief IT Architect for a Global Business Unit. I mentor 5 men who have 81 years clean and sober added together. I have achieved most of my goals in life and had to dream up new ones.

Any problem that I may encounter today is certainly "platinum-plated" and much, much better than what I would be dealing with otherwise (had I not decided to change). Most of my old "ripping and running" buddies are dead or in jail, as I certainly would have been.

I agree with the others here: you need not carry anything from the past that you no longer need. I have found that I hold onto things, not always in my best interests, due to a need that I am not aware of.

I am glad to hear that you are working to let go of what is not working for you. Will keep you in thoughts and prayers...

[clarice]

Pitch it, enlightened..except I can't pitch my cookery stuff..if I even think that, for example, I do not need the raclette maker..I suddenly do. Just try to avoid single purpose kitchen gadgets..They take up space, need to be cleaned or maintained and never are worth it.

[Enlightened]

"Holy shades of storage units!"

Yessir. One shed and one closet in my house are full of Halloween and Christmas bins.

The other, LARGER shed (10x12x12) is full of dirt bikes, vintage motorcyles, vintage car parts, tools, camping equip, and gardening tools.....garage has two vintage vehicles of my hubby's - a 1969 Vette and a 1952 Chevy pickup.....

The lake is full of everything I have tired of at the home base and just haul it two hours away to the weekend base.....never thinking of course that at some point in time I might have to haul it all back or dump it.....crikey what a mess. Good therapy though.

[Rick Ballard]

E,

Call it Aunta's Great Enlightenment. It will make a fine true tale.

[Thomas Collins]

This thread may be the stimulus to my cleaning out my basement. Of course, I CAN'T part with that 1981 memo on New Mexico public contract law. Or that Red Sox shirt that hasn't fit for the last 30 years . . .

[Enlightened]

Well, god willing and we are all still here next year commiserating about whatnot, I will bet you all $5 that I'm in the same Stuff Boat....I'm always dumpimg stuff at this time of year, so I seem to be spinning my wheels here....at some point in time I should have empty/ier closets and sheds - not.

[clarice]

shell collection, coin collection,butterfly collection, cds, books, old clothes, notes from college applications and IB and AP and SAT test materials..all there in his own little shrine to his early life.

[Porchlight]

I have a "stuff" problem, too. I'm horribly sentimental and can't seem to cast off anything. Drawers and drawers full of ticket stubs, pretty rocks, broken earrings, closets of clothing that no longer fits, etc. Anything my daughters have touched.

I always joke that if I could be Samantha on Bewitched and wrinkle my nose to make it all disappear, I would. But if I pick up an item and look at it, I can't let go of it. I wish I could pay someone to take it away in the middle of the night while I'm hiding in a hotel someplace - but no, they always want you to go through it, for the therapeutic value or something. (It is therapeutic to make yourself get rid of it, I admit.)

Anyway. Good to know I'm not alone...

[PDinDetroit]

IIRC, George Carlin once had part of his comedy act about buying a bigger house due to having too much stuff. I don't think he ever considered having another house to store the excess in!

[Enlightened]

Hah! Speaking of shrines...In our son's bedroom, we have pictures of him. His grad pic, some with his friends etc....so I had the big party for his 21st around Halloween, and he pokes his nose in and says "Ma, what is this a shrine or something? It's my bedroom, do you really think I would have pictures of myself all over the place?"

I just couldn't answer that. So I had some champagne and a smoke - and left the room as is. It is a shrine for me, it's my daily connection to my kid I rarely see....it's always a thrill to get a youngster's perspective.....ahem.

AND - I have every picture he painted or colored, every mother's day, father's day project, his report cards, his school journals, ornaments he made, a costume of the cowardly lion I hand made for him when he was six and played it in the school recital (the video is classic)....I just keep thinking his wife or kids might think they are cute...argh.

[Enlightened]

"I just keep thinking his wife or kids might think they are cute...argh."

That would be his FUTURE wife and kids.....phew.

[Enlightened]

"I don't think he ever considered having another house to store the excess in!"

Ours is a cabin, been in the family since the seventies and my hubby's parents sold it to us about 15 years ago....I even have some of THEIR stuff still in it! I just thought my hubby would like it because it was part of his past etc..sentimental etc...and he is like "No I don't even like that crap, I've always hated that crap, get rid of it"!!! And then I promptly filled it with double the stuff....sigh.

[Jane]

You guys all need to move.

Nothing clears the closets like United Van Lines charging by the box. It's not the money, it's the fact that you have to unpack it all.

Come live here with me - in the country. Nice roomy condo's with foxes in the back yard. Tis beautiful.

[PDinDetroit]

Enlightened - it seems to me that most men have an easier time letting go of "stuff" that do women. You should turn him loose on the cabin and watch him go!

[MayBee]

Nothing clears the closets like United Van Lines charging by the box.

You are not kidding.
Moving to a place with no basement is also a tremendously cleansing experience.

[Enlightened]

"You should turn him loose on the cabin and watch him go!"

Never. Not ever. He would throw away my stuffed ducks. And my petrified frog. And he would keep the 15 year old Hustler's hidden in the bathroom.

I think I would spontaneously combust if I let him loose.....

[clarice]

Moving does help lightening the load ..thing is I haven't done that since about 1977.

[Enlightened]

"You guys all need to move."

That is our ultimate goal - we want to move into a condo or loft in about 15 years, get rid of the cabin and the house...so I've got some time...as long as I don't re-load on the other end I should be fine!

[Porchlight]

Nothing clears the closets like United Van Lines charging by the box.

Jane,

All my adult life I have avoided moving because I can't bear to deal with my stuff! I've only lived in 2 apartments and 2 houses in 17 years, and that includes the 11 years of single city living after college and before getting married.

We have no basement, no attic, and no garage - just crawlspaces above and below. In the house are a utility closet for the laundry, a pantry, and two bedroom closets. That's it. Oh and two cars which I always say are like giant purses on wheels.

[Thomas Collins]

My mother's pack rat tendencies did lead to a humorous incident. My kids were visiting her at her home in North Providence, RI a decade or so ago. The kids started leafing through all my elementary school tests that she kept. Well, amidst the occasional 90 or 100 there were the 60s and 50s and whatevers. My kids always reminded me of that when I hassled them about their grades.

[Jane]

Last Christmas my mother (the most secretive woman on the planet) brought her scrapbook to show her grandchildren. I learned for the first time that when she was in her 20's she was a licensed pilot and the President of the Maine flight club.

I can only imagine all the other things she has forever refused to divulge.

[jimmyk]

It's not the money, it's the fact that you have to unpack it all.

Who says you have to unpack it? Leave it in the box and save the trouble of repacking on the next move. :)

I tossed a huge amount when I moved from a 3-bedroom house in flyover country with an attic and basement to a 1-bedroom apartment in Manhattan (that cost double what I got for the house, and that was in 1997).

On stealing: Does illegal downloading count? That could really hike the percentage.

[clarice]

A linguist emails to say there should be no La in this thread title.Just in case you care, TM.

Jane, I'm certain she'll never tell you anything now that you've got the radio show--man, that's like Show and Tell X 100.

[clarice]

I meant no LE in the title.
La,Le,Il Latin Thes are so complicated.

[glenda waggoner]

Great memories! But, yes, the only way I clean out the clutter is moving or remodeling. Did the latter 8months ago, and it's amazing the stuff you box up, you don't miss or pine over. Get rid of it! I say this while my daughters(34 & 38)doll houses with the tiny Duncan Phyfe furniture are still wrapped up in the attic along with my vintage 1951 Stieff teddy bear.

[kim]

The phrase is 'Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose', but the question I have is whether the phrase 'Plus ca change' acting as a noun, is masculine or feminine.
======================================

[JM Hanes]

kim:

This time it looks like I'm the one who thought Tom was making an amusing play on words.

[Mary]

It has been 10 years since our last move and we need to move again. For 21 years we moved every third year. These were all business moves so cost was not a factor. The unwritten rule was that unless it was a family hierloom if the box had not been opened it was time to donate the contents or sell them. Unfortunately, books were exempt.

[PD]

I recently started going through stuff with an eye to throwing it out. I began with the easy stuff: Printouts of source code for programs I hadn't touched for years - so it was easy to conclude I never would. Then went the baseball cards, old ticket stubs, and scorecards. Then the bookshelves holding the tech books: If I had never read it, or not looked at it for years, out it went. I did have some trouble deciding to throw out my "original phonebook edition" of Inside Macintosh. Yeah, I guess it's kind of weird having a sentimental attachment to such a thing.

Eventually I worked up sufficient momentum that I was ended up throwing out stuff like the original copy of my Master's thesis, Father's day cards my kids gave me years ago, my 2nd grade math workbook ... I do have to admit it gave me some feeling like I was diminishing myself by erasing my history, and I do have some pangs of regret occasionally. I figure that will fade over time.