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January 14, 2009

Comments

Thomas Collins

His Zeroness no doubt realizes that a successful 9/11 type attack on his, Harry's and Nancy's watch will be something that even an in the tank MSM will not be able to smooth over with the American people. I think that this realization will be His Zeroness's guiding light on torture and surveillance substantive policy, whatever therapeutic words he may utter. I can only pray that this will be the case.

PaulL

Re: Drudge's inside scoop on the Obama - "conservatives" meeting:

It's too bad that Obama is already married because I'm sure that Larry Kudlow would be delighted to tie the knot with him.

creepy dude

Just drop your moral waffling you despicable fool.

Why do we have the President lying that "we do not torture" when we clearly do? What's the point of pretending to hold the high ground. Especially when all you "Jack Bauer rules" cretins actually WANT us to torture people?

Have the courage to embrace your own sadism and quit paying lip service to a morality you hold in contempt.

bad

And insults to his mother and sister.

Did the interrogater tell him the "yo mama is so fat" series of jokes?

Has anybody ever listened to an elementary playground conversation...torture...

bad

sorry

Der Hahn

Wow, the Liberal-in-chief and his minions are going to redefine a word to avoid upsetting people like creepy dude.

In other news, the sun rose in the east, a dog bit a man, and Francisco Franco is still dead.

Der Hahn

Wow, the Liberal-in-chief and his minions are going to redefine a word to avoid upsetting people like creepy dude.

In other news, the sun rose in the east, a dog bit a man, and Francisco Franco is still dead.

Soylent Red

I want someone to torture you creepy dude. For trying to impose your morality on me.

Jane

Especially when all you "Jack Bauer rules" cretins actually WANT us to torture people?

Raising hand: Me too me too. And I'm with Soylent, let's start with creepy dude.

bad

I'm with you Soylent. Here we go.

Creepy, did you know your mother and sister wear Code Pink Clothes? Or was that Cindy Sheehan outfits...

Jane

LOL Bad!

clarice

TM:"I infer that hadd the enhanced techniques been applied in moderation she might not have considered them to be torture. Which suggests that the techniques could remain legal if subject to more rigorous oversight."

I second that inference.

bad

Torture is knowing someone actually reads Sully for more than just to see how pathetic he is...

bgates

Just drop your moral waffling you despicable fool.
Abusive and uncalled for. Quit torturing TM, creepy dude!

sbw

Reading Creepy Dude IS torture, according to Crawford. It's kind of like having to listen to Milli Vanilli repeatedly. Sheer excessive holier-than-thou puts it over the line. Latch on a single opinion, so long as it meets your preconceived notions, and all others cease to matter. God help us from simpletonian judgment.

Thomas Collins

So creepy dude, at the risk of incurring clarice's pistolas for troll feeding, I am going to ask you whether you seriously think that those who view torture as a necessary component of our defense against jihadist attacks simply want to torture people? If you insist on challenging the good faith of those who support torture as a defense component, do you also challenge the good faith of folks such as yourself on the theory that those who are protected by others sometimes have a tendency to sit on their pompous sanctimonious high horse and mouth therapeutic platitudes?

centralcal

I am embracing my own sadism and wishing really vile things happen to creepy dude. Oh, wait a minute!!! With a name like "creepy" dude, it sounds like I am too late.

Danube of Thought

I am wholeheartedly in favor of using techniques that Ms. Crawford would likely classify as torture inapproriate circumstances. Anyone who infers that I therefore must be "sadistic" has not successfully passed the middle-school emotional level.

Nor am I concerned with whether the use of such techniques would preclude the evidence obtained from being used at a criminal trial. And I am very strongly opposed to the use of such techniques as punishment.

I favor their use only in circumstances where they may lead to the discovery of important information that would not otherwise be forthcoming. Once the information is obtained, the prisoner should simply be held in cutody until the cessation of hostilities. I do not have any interest in seeing any of these unlawful combatants subjected to criminal trials, unless it is quite clear that they have committed crimes. Whether or not they have done so is entirely irrelevant to the question of whether they pose a grave danger to the US and its citizens.

Max Power

It's "Jack Bower RULZE!!11!!1!" pin head. Get it right.

Soylent Red

Since I'm sure creepy is a nihilistic leftist moral equivocator, I am forced to ponder...

If there is no "right" or "wrong", as defined by anything vaguely smacking of religion or mainstream morality, how can torture be "wrong"? How can support for torture be "wrong"? How can I hold a "morality in contempt", when all moralities are equally legitimate?

I just love it when lefties preach to me about morality and my lack thereof. As they equivocate for Palis, and Iran, and headchoppers and father rapers, and...

Cecil Turner
It was that medical impact that pushed me over the edge" to call it torture, she said.
Oh, great. So the new definition of "torture" is: "whatever pushes Susan J. Crawford over the edge"? Excuse me if I find that even less helpful than Yoo's "feels like organ failure" test. I have this very creepy feeling that some folks would be quite comfortable with subjective decisions on the "torture" call . . . as long as it happened to fit their political proclivities . . . which isn't exactly a plus.

And is her argument that torture is now a bar to prosecution (instead of merely triggering the exclusionary rule in the MCA)? Because that's what it sounded like, and I don't recall reading that in any legislation.

It looks like the two big recent developments are: 1) Democrats bringing back the Nuremberg defense, and; 2) Ms Crawford fuzzing up the definition of "torture" even more. (And possibly proffering the "I was tortured" defense, which would be guaranteed to elicit that claim from every unlawful combatant in any commission from now forward.) Looks like a couple paving stones in the road to Hell, to me, though I'm sure they all mean well. And even more likely to result in actual torture in the future.

steve sturm

Just as overuse of 'hero' and 'Holocaust' have diminished the significance of those words, we're doing the same with 'torture'.

Making someone stand naked, not letting them go to sleep and keeping them isolated is torture? That ain't torture, torture is putting electrodes to someone's genitals.. or cutting off their fingers... you know, what Jack Bauer does.

The interesting question is whether the complainers were sincere in their wanting to make sure detainees were treated with respect or whether their complaints were just a tactic in their battle against Bush. If the latter, I have nothing but contempt for them, if the former, nothing buy amazement at their stupidity.

And as for Bush, who did pretty much nothing to explain and build support among the public for his tactics, thereby ceding the moral high ground to the other side, ah, don't ask...

Soylent Red

Cecil:

I've never understood why there can't simply be a definition of torture based on its effects. As in, "if it causes permanent and provable damage, it's torture". You could broaden that or restrict that definition by allowing or disallowing mental or psychological damage to be included. Or not. Either way, Achmed has to prove it.

hit and run

If we torture detainees engage trolls, the terrorists will have already won.

clarice

Don't you think some objective test would provide more guidance to the interrogators? I mean if you said I had to listen to The View and Oprah round the clock that'd be my definition of torture.

Rick Ballard

"And even more likely to result in actual torture in the future."

Cecil,

Isn't the initial probable outcome a reduction in the number of prisoners taken? The risk/reward assessment of an engagement changes rather dramatically if the probability of obtaining decent intelligence drops significantly.

I'm not suggesting that combatants trying to surrender would suffer but I would certainly expect a ground commander to employ tactics which would diminish the probability of taking casualties among the men for whom he is responsible if the potential for acquiring valuable information were diminished.

It seems to me that the first outcome would be a tweaking of the mission. A secondary outcome would be allowing our Afghani allies to develop intelligence based upon their interrogation procedures. None of the sissy Jack Bauer stuff for them and we must always respect the customs of indigenous people in order to win hearts and minds.

clarice

The problem is too many people going to law school and too few lawyers having military experience. IMO

steve sturm

Clarice: the problem is not that too many people went to law school, the problem is having ceded them the power to run things.

creepy dude

"And is her argument that torture is now a bar to prosecution"

She was designated the convening authority by Gates under section MCA 948h.

There is no military commission for an illegal combatant unless one is convened.

AFAICT the convening authority has unfettered discretion here-normally just the way you executive power worshipping types wanted it.

The only fly in the ointment: Gates appointed somebody with a brain as the convening authority.

No wonder Cheney didn't want to see Rumsfeld go.


boris

Isn't the initial probable outcome a reduction in the number of prisoners taken?

Another side effect would be that only Dimorat administrations would be able to secretly employ effective interrogation techniques and trust the mandarinate bureaucracy and the MSM not to exploit leaking for political gain. Also a Dimorat administration would not be subject to hysterical sanctimonious denunciation from the opposition party at the mere hint of discomforting the enemy.

So again, if any serious activity needs to happen wrt foreign policy a sitting Republican administration should quickly resign so that Dimorats can protect the country without being sabotaged by the "loyal" opposition at every opportunity.

bgates

not letting them go to sleep and keeping them isolated is torture?
Sweet, I'm starting a class action suit on behalf of anybody who majored in engineering in college.

Sue

DoT,

Absolutely. What I would have said if I could say it like you did.

Soylent Red

The risk/reward assessment of an engagement changes rather dramatically if the probability of obtaining decent intelligence drops significantly.

Well Rick, there is that. It sort of negates the necessity to go out and try to get prisoners. Which in a way makes things simpler.

But what I think ends up happening is that you still end up taking about the same number of prisoners, but you get a group of people whose mission is to use the US legal system to wage an Information Operation. A willing press and judiciary will give these a-holes every opportunity to scream "Abuse!" on an international stage.

We spent an entire morning yesterday talking about the "Arab Street" and what they think about this, that and the other thing. We're opening ourselves up for a much broader and more persuasive form of myth-making. The anti-Israel propaganda campaign of Intifada II should serve as a pretty good example of what can go wrong, long-term, when you give these pukes a chance to claim abuse.

All that would matter to people who really give a damn. Team Zero doesn't particularly care, just so long as whatever they do doesn't offend a bomb thrower or head chopper.

Sue

Calling their mothers and sisters whores, putting panties on their head and making them wear a bra was torture, according to Crawford. ::eyeroll::

boris

Moron torture?

There probably is not much in the way of useful information to be gained by torturing morons. Regardless of how tempting it might be to torture trolls the same futility likely applies.

Soylent Red

So again, if any serious activity needs to happen wrt foreign policy a sitting Republican administration should quickly resign so that Dimorats can protect the country without being sabotaged by the "loyal" opposition at every opportunity.

That, boris, is the devil's bargain foisted upon us by the Left, i.e. "We won't let you be safe under a Republican administration, because we won't allow them to what needs to be done to keep you safe. Therefore, if you want to be safe, you must let Democrats be in power."

boris

Wish there were a flaw in the logic. Haven't found one yet. Still looking.

creepy dude

"because we won't allow them to what needs to be done to keep you safe"

How very clever of the left to FORCE Bush to go on vacation the day after being handed a memo stating "Bin Laden determined to attack inside the U.S."

boris

Thus proving the futility of torturing trolls and expecting to gain any useful intelligence.

clarice

A large number of Dems who mewled about torture and Gitmo,will find ways to avert their eyes and support the continuation of these practices under O, but I'll bet a fair number of the lefties will not..The bottom line is this is a middle of the road country and the fringe will never be happy with anyone who governs as a rational adult.

Topsecretk9

How very clever of the left to FORCE Bush to go on vacation the day after being handed a memo stating "Bin Laden determined to attack inside the U.S."

You mean like the same memo Clinton received in December 1998?

You think "determinedto attack inside the U.S." was some revelation when in fact they HAD attacked us in 1993?

Cecil Turner

Either way, Achmed has to prove it.

You'd think so. But I was disturbed to hear claims of convening authority interference in prosecutions (and in any event, a lawyer does not normally act as convening authority, and putting one in charge--especially by a high visibility appointment process--seems unwise). Traditionally that is a command responsibility, not a JAG function, and it appears the military commissions project has lost sight of its mission.

Isn't the initial probable outcome a reduction in the number of prisoners taken?

I'd think that'd be third. First the system loses effectiveness (highlighted by things like released detainees returning to the fight); then it's perceived as useless; then the front-line soldiers stop going out of their way to take prisoners. (Though I suppose one could argue the first two have already happened . . . in which case I'd agree that's next.)

boris

I'll bet a fair number of the lefties will not

My bet is the lefties don't get the same access to the sausage making from the guv mandarinate and MSM. Thus for them it's like Dimorats don't do the bad stuff.

creepy dude

Clarice, you cigarette smoke stinking old hag, we're talking about the 20th hijacker on 9-11.

You think this guy should be hard to convict?

Now it's almost 8 years later and Bush's OWN people say we can't even bring the guy to trial?!

Fuck rationality honey, just some basic competence is all we Obama voters want.

Topsecretk9

just some basic competence is all we Obama voters want.

Well, the vetting process is turning out to be sterling.

boris

You think "determinedto attack inside the U.S." was some revelation when in fact they HAD attacked us in 1993?

By analogy, another problem is just knowing there are going to be N murders this week in DC is useless information for the purpose of stopping those N murders. It may be useful in some other sense, but not that.

creepy dude

Obama may well turn out to suck donkey ass, but Bush set the bar so low there's really only one direction left-up.

creepy dude

"N murders this week in DC is useless information for the purpose of stopping those N murders"

How about we compromise Boris and agree that, despite the unstoppability of the murders, if the D.C. Police Chief is caught reading My Pet Goat to some first graders next week, he's an idiot.

narciso

Mohammed Manea Al Quahtani, was trained as an engineer at King Saud university; the recount of his training regimen is in the index of the Peter Bergen biography of Bin Laden. a relative of his was the chief religious authority in the Grand Mosque of Mecca(Haramain)of 1979. That happened around the time young Mohammed was born; It was also the signal event of the return of the Wahhabi Ilkwan (Brotherhood) to prominence. The Quahtani, as I noted many months before were chronicled in Doughty 120 years ago, as a savage even
cannibalistic tribe. Their handiwork has been seen in Baghdad, Fallujah, et al. Given all that, it was imperative to find out exactly what he was upto and who had been in contact with him. I don't see it as torture, just a particularly tough round of interrogation, What I do find torturous is Crawford's reasoning, which will get many Americans killed in the future. Tell me creepy, how would you have gotten information out of such an AQ minion without resort to such methods.

Topsecretk9

Dodd lawyered up:

Dodd paid more than $60,000 to the politically connected Seattle-based law firm Perkins Coie in the third quarter of 2008 out of his Senate campaign committee, according to public records. A December filing from his presidential campaign shows an additional $125,447 in outstanding invoices owed to Perkins Coie. (Kevin Rennie had the goods on how the money got from the presidential campaign over to the Senate committee — more Perkins Coie assistance.)

insty link

creepy dude

Narciso-are you really such an uninformed idiot?

How was information obtained from
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed?

boris

but Bush set the bar so low ...

So Crappy DooDoo ... you never answered the very important question ... Is it your contention that Bush/Cheney/Scooter conspired to out Valerie in order to punish Joe for exposing Bush/Cheney lies about Iraq?

clarice

narciso, on one of these damned threads i posted a message to you about someone wanted to fund half the CPAC fee for you? Did you see it? Are you interested?

The next person who resoinds to CD gets it between the eyes.
*unholstering the pistolas*

clarice

**responds***

Sue

I don't know why Bush didn't just follow Clinton's lead and send the prisoners to "friendly" countries where real torture is practiced. That way, democrats would be able to hold their heads up when they travel abroad, knowing their president didn't actually own the torture of prisoners but rented it out.

creepy dude

CPAC!

Oh Clarice, you are too funny. Yes, all you brainiacs go to CPAC and figure out Twitter and plot your comeback.

later!

sbw

Love how you spin those pistolas!

narciso

I'm weighting the pros and cons, Clarice, do I have a deadline by which to decide.

Barney Frank

What seemed over the top was what Cecil referred to; her stating he could not be tried even when the prosecutors came to her later with subsequent incriminating statements he had made under ordinary questioning.

clarice

No, but to save me the trouble of searching thru all the threads. why not respond on my rarely used [email protected], narciso.

narciso

She sounds exactly like the lefty judge in Dirty Harry; which excluded his evidence, she was a he in this case; but the point stays the same. Just like Ramzi Yousef, when he was being transported to NY, for trial, said he'd be back, the same will happen with a capital plot.

Danube of Thought

"Now it's almost 8 years later and Bush's OWN people say we can't even bring the guy to trial?!"

Who cares about a trial? Just keep him in Gitmo, or wherever else Obama decides can serve the same function but with a different name, until the cessation of hostilities. Subjecting the dear fellow to certain inconveniences has served its purpose; now just keep him confined until his and his colleagues' attitudes have changed. Any desire to "try" and "punish" him is motivated purely by sadism.

Remember when they bombarded Noreiga with ABBA music around the clock? Why haven't those fiends been brought before the bar of justice?

Soylent Red

My bet is the lefties don't get the same access to the sausage making from the guv mandarinate and MSM.

My bet boris is that the lefties don't even attempt to get into the sausage making promulgated by Team Zero. Why would they? It might put the lie to the meme that only Bushitler tortures.

Nope. Anything Zero does will be by definition holy and blameless.

Cecil Turner

Now it's almost 8 years later and Bush's OWN people say we can't even bring the guy to trial?!

Well, if it makes you feel better, she blames Bush, too:

"We learn as children it's easier to ask for forgiveness than it is for permission," Crawford said. "I think the buck stops in the Oval Office."
Makes one wonder, though, six days from now, what's the savior gonna do about it? And will all the hand-wringers suddenly come up with a definition of what's acceptable (assuming anyone even gets to ask the One what the policy is), a positive plan on what to do with unlawful combatants . . . or throw hands in the air and claim it's too messed up to fix because of that awful GWB?

Sue

I don't imagine in the time-frame that this was happening anyone was worried about bringing the terrorist to trial.

Captain Hate

cigarette smoke stinking

Is this the standard you're holding Obastard to, Creepy Douche? Are you Harry Reid?

bgates

what's the savior gonna do about it?
Cecil. He has a first-class temperament. First- class.

PeterUK

bad,

"Creepy, did you know your mother and sister wear Code Pink Clothes? Or was that Cindy Sheehan outfits..."

Utterly disgraceful,you should be ashamed,it was his father and brother.

bad

Is she trying to get a better job with the Obama administration or just trying to keep her current one?

bad

lol Peter

narciso

You would think if someone bombed your former place of work, you would get a clue about what's at stake. But some people never do.

Rick Ballard

"it was his father and brother"

Mr Uk,

That could only be determined through extensive DNA analysis even if it were his mother's husband at the transformation of the maggot into the housefly.

jawnybnsc

@ Danube of Thought

Try a four year old whose Grandfather thought it would be a great idea to get her Mamma Mia! for Christmas. I'm in a circle of hell that Noreiga and his boys couldn't possibly comprehend.

Rick Ballard

"I'm in a circle of hell that Noreiga and his boys couldn't possibly comprehend."

Thank you for that. I laughed so hard it hurt. Grandpa was just getting in a little pay back.

PeterUK

It is amusing when those of the judiciary or former members of the judiciary involve themselves in morality.Does Susan J. Crawford not realise the whole justice system relies on coercion to function ?

bad

not letting them go to sleep and keeping them isolated is torture?

I have a number of friends who were tortured after the birth of one or more chidren under that definition.

clarice

Rick, were you THAT grandfather?

Danube of Thought

"I don't know why Bush didn't just follow Clinton's lead and send the prisoners to 'friendly' countries where real torture is practiced."

In this particular case, it may have been because they wanted to get this guy's info first-hand. Otherwise, a routine rendition would seem to have been appropriate.

I note that the public fool John Cusack at HuffPo is already starting to get frustrated that no prosecutor is going after the archfiends who waterboarded KSM. Four years from now those dopes are going to be positively around the bend.

Strawman Cometh

James Inhofe is on the Senate floor listing foiled terror plots, he's been going for some time. C-SPAN2

PeterUK

"Fuck rationality honey, just some basic competence is all we Obama voters want."

Too late,you got Obama instead.

creepy dude

"a positive plan on what to do with unlawful combatants"

Hey how about we put them on trial, present evidence we have collected as to their alleged guilt, and if they're found guilty, incarcerate them for anywhere from x years to death?

There are over 2,000,000 American citizens in jail right now, and that was how they all got there. It ain't like we don't know how to do this.

Why don't you people have faith that democracy can defend itself with democratic methods?

creepy dude

Under the Bush administration, Scooter Libby was tried and convicted faster than the 20th hijacker on 9-11!?

With less evidence!

How can anyone applaud such idiocy?

Pal2Pal (Sara)

Ace says Michelle Obama's subsidized job was so important, they are doing away with her position now that she has left to be First Lady.

clarice

Yes. Isn't that a surprise?

bad

Hey Sara, we have the cookbook cookin' over on the Satruday morning thread. Be sure to submit.

PeterUK

There are a "couple" of flaws with putting terrorists or unlawful combatants through the criminal justice system.

One,they do not accept the validity of taht system,or any part of your society.

Two,Fanatics don't hold up their hands and say,"You have got me bang to rights" and go to prison quietly,serve their time and come out singing "Kumbaya".
Fanatics and politicals will carry on the fight inside prison. They will proslytise ,there will be endless,"human rights" complaints,lawyers will be drooling.
If you parole them,the same will happen.
Fanatics and politicals will disrupt the prison system,ultimately,they will have to be kept apart from the general prison population.Since that is the situation which obtains now,why change it?

bad

I was surprised Clarice. I thought they'd wait a little longer in an attempt to be less obvious.

Pal2Pal (Sara)

I am just wending my way thru the thread. Did some creep actually question narciso's knowledge and understanding? There are probably many things about narciso that could be said, but a lack of knowledge and understanding isn't one of them.

Enlightened

Sillies. Don't you know popping zits, shaving legs and pits, washing and brushing hair once a week, brushing teeth, and not picking boogers or scabs, is torture to moonbats?

Imagine marching them into forced hygienics - no wonder they think waterboarding is the ultimate torture.

Captain Hate

Three, as part of their defense the terrorists may be given access to classified documents that could be a security disaster.

narciso

Don't worry about it Sara, it was creepy, who was woefully informed about the history of the clan Quahtani, the circumstances of MMMQ
training, his destination, the nature of their
efforts in Iraq, He only has lefty talking points,

Pal2Pal (Sara)

narciso: Are you anywhere close to Ft. Lauderdale? I've won an all expenses paid cruise for two and as soon as I have dates, I'll be flying to my daughter's in Orlando and we'll drive to Ft. Lauderdale to take the cruise together. After the cruise, I plan to stay with her for a couple of weeks and do some Florida sightseeing.

MayBee

Following bad's link, I followed another link to the WaPo and found this:

[Obama plans to] name Susan Sher to the post of associate counsel to the president, where she will work on legal issues associated with health care policy and provide legal advice to the first lady.

It's a position she won't find unfamiliar: Sher is general counsel and a vice president at the University of Chicago Medical Center and has been a close friend and mentor to Michelle Obama for many years. ...

Sher had recruited Michelle Obama for a community relations job at the center, where Obama in time ascended to vice president for external affairs. In that post, she and Sher worked together on the center's efforts to steer patients with non-urgent complaints away from the center's crowded emergency room and into local health clinics....

Sher also played a role in the center's decision to hire a company co-owned by David Axelrod, Obama's senior adviser, to build community support for the program.

cozy

SWH

Citi is ruined after ruining the Chinese debt and bailing out those mortgages. It sounds like the CIA under Panetta, it's a house cleaning and everyone is sad.

The torture is all medicinal and psychiatrists.

The new limo smells.

LU/

Danube of Thought

From the UK Times:

"Osama bin Laden is not yet a busted flush but the damage caused to his organisation by the American Predator spy drones operating close to the Afghan-Pakistani border has torn a huge hole in his global network.

"Al-Qaeda’s tentacles still reach out to bin Laden supporters and sympathisers in dozens of countries, including the United Kingdom, but every time another senior commander is eliminated by a Hellfire missile or a precision-guided bomb fired by an unmanned Predator, the impact is felt across the terrorist network."

I blame Bush.

Danube of Thought

"Hey how about we put them on trial, present evidence we have collected as to their alleged guilt, and if they're found guilty, incarcerate them for anywhere from x years to death?"

Because being an unlawful combatant is not a crime, any more than being a soldier captured in battle is a crime. You incarcerate them not because they are criminals who need to be rehabilitated, deterred or punished, you incarcerate them until the cessation of hostilities because you want to prevent them from waging war.

They've all had hearings before CSRT's in accordance with the Geneva Convention, and they've all been determined to be unlawful combatants. That's more of a hearing than was had by any of the 400,000 German soldiers imprisoned on US soil until 1945. No one was stupid enough to contend that those soldiers should be tried and convicted of a crime, or else released. Very few people are stupid enough to make such a contention with respect to the unlawful combatants at Gitmo, but there is at least one such person, and we have the honor to hear from the fool every so often on this very site.

PeterUK

Which is probably why one in four Gitmo detainees are on hunger strike.

Pal2Pal (Sara)

A dry run as practice:

I BLAME OBAMA!

Danube of Thought

"Why don't you people have faith that democracy can defend itself with democratic methods?"

The principal reason I have no such faith is that democracy has never done so, at least not in this country (I'll let PeterUK speak for his). I would proceed from Lincoln to Wilson to FDR to Bush, and I'd cite innumerable examples of the "undemocratic" methods they found necessary to defend the nation in wartime, but because I think everyone here except one solitary oaf is very familiar with them I won't bother.

PeterUK

"Why don't you people have faith that democracy can defend itself with democratic methods?"

It is fairly obvious that the criminal justice system has nothing to do with democracy.The initial laws may be legislated by democratically elected politicians,and they cannot be trusted as far as you can throw them,but the large body of law is passed down from judges.Some of them are loopy.

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