The Stimulus Recovery Package

Let's talk about the impending Obama recovery.

First, Republicans are opposed to the $825 billion recovery bill; Obama is open to "compromise", which surely amounts to tossing a few fig leaves to the right.

A key part of the controversy - a lot of the "stimulus" won't even be spent until after the economy is projected to be in the early stages of a recovery  (projected by whom, one might wonder?).  Nobel Laureate Paul Krugman tries his hand at economic history and offers assurance that this time, the spending lag won't matter:

It’s not a problem if some or even most of the stimulus arrives after the official recession, as determined by the NBER, is over. Why? Because in modern recessions, unemployment keeps rising long after the NBER has determined, based on things like industrial production, that the recession proper is over. You can see that the need for stimulus doesn’t end with the recession by the simple fact that in each of the last two recessions the Fed continued to cut interest rates long after the official cycle trough. if it’s good enough for the Fed, it’s good enough for fiscal policy.

So what is the right criterion? Actually, I think it’s quite straightforward. The reason we’re talking about fiscal policy is the fact that monetary policy is up against the zero lower bound. Stimulus will still be valuable as long as we’re still up against that bound — which is likely to be the case for a long time.

Again, I think it’s helpful to look at the last two recessions, even though we didn’t hit the zero bound either time. The 1990-1991 recession officially ended in March 1991; but the Fed kept cutting rates, and it didn’t start raising the target rate until Feb. 1992 (sic - should be 1994), 2 years and 11 months later. The 2001 recession officially ended in Nov. 2001; but the Fed kept cutting, and didn’t start raising rates until June 2004, 2 years and 7 months later. This suggests a long window, even after the recession officially ends, before the zero bound stops binding, and hence before the current strong case for fiscal expansion goes away.

My goodness, Krugman's citation of the 1990/91 recession and the low interest rate environment that followed it is amusing.  Let's play a quick word association game:  Rubinomics, Clintonomics, "The Agenda", James Carville reincarnated as the bond market - are any memories of that era coming back?

Please - in his 1993 budget Bill Clinton famously jettisoned some liberal spending plans as part of a deal with Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan under which the Fed would provide low rates if the Administration battled the deficit.  Surely this is not news to a Nobel Laureate?  Unless Obama is poised to become a deficit fighter at the instant of recovery, the 1991 comparison is inapt.

Von at Obsidian Wings provids a longer economic history - following the more serious 1982 recession interest rates headed up almost immediately and in every recession since 1950 except the two cited by Krugman, unemployment fell at the outset of the recovery (that could be a matter of how "recovery" was defined, of course).

Finally, over at The Corner Jim Manzi offers the very prudent observation that what were once emergencies are now baselines.  For example, part of the stimulus recovery package includes an expansion of the food stamp program.  Regardless of how it is currenty budgeted, does anyone expect a future Democratic Congress and President to cut that program?  Obama and his Democratic allies are using this package to build new budgetary baselines that will entrench a permanent expansion of the Federal goverment.  OK, that is the flip side of the Republican page of the playbook where we cut taxes and entrench deficits in order to restrain spending, but still...

[Click for end of thread]

Comments

[Pofarmer]

Well, GOP recognizes that we're headed for brownouts if we don't produce more energy.

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet]

If the stakes weren't so high, I would be stocking up on ninety days of popcorn about now to watch "The Obama Administration" and its followers make fools of themselves . But I am not sure that I can keep all those extra carbs down with all the anxiety being fomented by the MSM, Nan and Harry, and The One and his Administration.

How in the world can so much bad news be good news if the Dems' solutions are a bust (a likelihood if history is any measure).

Most Democrats in the past (even Carter, for G**'s sake) have recognized that the job engine for the country is small business and the entrepreneurial sector. But where's the beef in the stimulus package for these real job creators? They need liquidity to get them over the next quarter, not junk that gets funded in fy 2010.

Only if the goal is to make us all serfs of the federal government does the package passing the House today make sense. Even 11 Dems can't buy that approach. If they lose the "Blue Dogs" they're in trouble, despite victories in November 08.

It looks to me like they are on their way to do just that.

[clarice]

That's my thought, too, Jim.

[PD]

I wonder how long Gibbs will last as press secretary.

He's a press secretary? Hard to tell.

[Pofarmer]

Do Liberals always have this much cognitave dissonance? She's bitching that her property taxes are too high, but doesn't understand that high taxes are driving jobs out of the country, not eeevvviiiiilllll Republicans.

70% of callers on the line favor a balanced budget ammendment.

[Pofarmer]

Luetkemeyer says 50 billion or less in actual stimulus and 750 billion in pork.

[Jane]

This is great Po. Someone should live blog one of these calls from every elected official in the country.

[PD]

Linux/Open Source guys are definitely the most arrogant.

Uh oh.

[narciso]

So lamentations for later, anybody got a beer?. To get all the Republicans to agree on anything, including the type of salad
they're ordering is an achievement. We still couldn't defeat this atrocity, but it may make them doubt their equanimity. Of ocourse this will likely force them to move further on the Fairness Doctrine, and every other muzzle they can think of, as good zampolits and commissars. Also further goof news Culture 11, the boutique faux cultural
conservative blog is going out of business, sorry Peter Suderman, that's the breaks Conor F.

[drJ]

PD,

Uh oh.

I resemble that remark too (grep or troff, anyone?). Not all of us are created equal. It helps to have kids or grandkids. Or at least not live in your parent's basement.

[Amused bystander]

Well we forget what an large artificial economy there is for Democrats there days. NGO's, Government, lobbyist, Law firms, Non-profits, foundations, etc., all payed for by the taxpayer one way or another, and outside of law, there is little accountability whatsoever. Profit making is not part of the deal at all. Perhaps this explains this disconnect with reality.

Add onto this all the anti-american programming and the bizarre bubble that they live in and it is a different game. The rest of us have to see that, this is not just dopey Democrats, this is a real attempt to enslave us. This is real treason. THe GOP has to get this firmly in its mind.

So, unlike the Democrats say, in the 1970's or 1980's, were there actually were some Democrats that had to work for a living, at least for a while, today's Democrat "leaders" really have no idea how the world actually works. They seem to feel that the problem is that their ideas have not been given a chance. Once implemented it will all be puppies and unicorns.

Pelosi and Reid make some like Tip O'Neal look liek a down right "John Wayne Republican".

You know, we have been humming along with 3 to 5% growth, < 5% employment, etc. Well these policies will wipe that out for a long time - forever if they are not changed, but even if these policies stay in force for a few years they will take decades ot over come. It is not just the stimulus package, it is structural Liberal "equal pay rules" unions, etc. These will be very hard to stop without a major shift against the liberals.

I wonder if the Dems really see that, or if they do, the kind of corruption and oppression they will gave to engage in to keep power once Americans see what the game really is.

They have really rolled the dice this time. It is just stunning.

Could just tear the nation apart.

Their arrogance is just chilling. What do they have planned?

[RichatUF]

Good stuff Pofarmer. Re: the wind and solar subsidies. Dem politically connected firms which benefit from subsidy puff up their stock price, dems rake off healthy profits see: Global Crossing, Enron, Citigroup.

It is good to see some backbone from the Republicans in the House. Now if we could get some spine transplants into the Senate.

narciso-I wonder how many "muslim converts" (probably emissaries from CAIR) have been honeycombed into the CIA and FBI. Having a sinking feeling about this. We could end up with an Agee clone destabalizing operations all over MENA and the Obama Admin will go around surrendering to dictators all around the world. Never underestimate the ability of Americans to turn around and stab themselves-and their allies-in the back.

[Extraneus]

Wasn't Clinton's first big act to try to get a "stimulus" package through, when he still had a Dem majority, and it failed? Am I remembering it wrong that it was only $16B?

[clarice]

Why was the CIA story leaked to Doug Ross now and by whom? That's what I want to know. Who knew outside the agency? The US Embassy people in Algeria..folks in DoJ investigating this...the complainants? Who, what, where and why?

[Sue]

We became debt free this past year and started hoarding our cash. After 1 week of an Obama presidency, I can say one thing. Thank goodness it isn't too late to put in a vegetable garden.

[Extraneus]

Sorry, he didn't have the Senate, did he. And anyway, he wasn't quite as god-like as Obama either if I remember right.

[Sue]

Obama is drafting a letter to Iran. Drudge has it headlined, but I think the headline is misleading. It is actually the state department that is drafting the letter and it isn't to Imamadhatter but the religious leader whose name escapes me.

[RichatUF]

Extranus-

Am I remembering it wrong that it was only $16B?

I thought it was closer to 30 billion, but it also got canned because Greenspan "hinted" he would cut rates. There was a memo that surfaced around the time the 93 budget deal was cut with a Clinton advisor saying that rate cuts would more than offset any beneficial effects from the stimulus package. Greenspan raised rates until 1996 if I remember correctly and Clinton gave him the Woolsey treatment.

[Extraneus]

"Persians, we've thought about the letter your A-man sent to ex-President Bush, and we've decided to take you up on your offer to surrender."

[Ranger]

Wasn't Clinton's first big act to try to get a "stimulus" package through, when he still had a Dem majority, and it failed? Am I remembering it wrong that it was only $16B?

Posted by: Extraneus | January 28, 2009 at 09:30 PM

No, actually, it passed on a party line vote, and the Dems lost the house the next election cycle.

[Ranger]

Why was the CIA story leaked to Doug Ross now and by whom? That's what I want to know. Who knew outside the agency? The US Embassy people in Algeria..folks in DoJ investigating this...the complainants? Who, what, where and why?

Posted by: clarice | January 28, 2009 at 09:32 PM

My guess is someone at DoS. They hate the CIA, and with Hil running the place they probably feel it is score settling time.

[Jane]

"What do they have planned?"

Nothing. They have no clue what they are doing and are simply hoping someone else does. Plus they can always blame it on the republicans, unless things get really bad and they can turn on zero.

These are not bright people. Their skill is in getting elected, and lining their pockets and nothing else.

[Rick Ballard]

Rich,

Look for Inhofe to really pump up the bass on the AGW scam. Another voice joins Theon.

"the forecasting process used by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) lacks a scientific basis."

[Danube of Thought]

The House vote is as heartening as anything I've heard in a long time, and I absolutely love the lady who came up with the line about bipartisan opposition, but no bipartisan support. I had given up all hope of ever seeing the GOP grow a new backbone, and now at least those in the People's Chamber appear to have done so. As for the House of Lords, it's my hope that any Republican who goes along with this thing has won his last election. Time to draw the line in the sand.

For whoever posed the question, the outcome in the Illinois Senate's impeachment trial will have no effect at all on any criminal prosecution.

[narciso]

Brian, not Doug, Clarice, that's our guy whose uncovered Acorn, Ayers and all other scandals. But it's a good question, why put out a story, that casts a bad light on the counter terror effort in part, and the
clandestine service as a whole. Threeguesses
the first two don't count. This guy seems to have been effective in his public life, working with the Cercle Sportif, maybe helping along that little incident with the AQ in the Maghreb (formerly Salafist Combat Circles) so they thought to neutralize him. although he's done a fine job himself on that score. This may serve like the pretext for a "Halloween Massacre" type purge of the most aggressive of the covert ranks.

[jimmyk]

"We need to compare the cost of this package against the cost of doing nothing. The cost of nothing would be catastrophic," said Rep. David Obey (D., Wis.).

Is he that stupid, or does he think we are that stupid? Why is comparing it to doing nothing the right comparison? (I happen to think doing nothing would be preferable to this bill, but leave that aside for the moment.) This is just another example of lowering the baseline to make whatever they do look better. It would make as much sense for him to say "We need to compare the cost of this package against the cost of colonizing Mars. The cost of colonizing Mars would be catastrophic." Hey David, how about comparing it to the cost of a bill that doesn't include money for ACORN, "renewable energy," and every imaginable social program?

LUN (subscription may be required)

[Extraneus]

Thanks, Ranger. I must be getting old.

[Chris]

Great suggestion upthread about requiring legislators to sign saying they've read the contents of every bill they vote on. Kind of a Sarbanes-Oxley for the legislative branch. Some enterprising rep or senator should attach it to this porktapular stimulus.

[Pofarmer]

I can't beleive I just live blogged a conference call to people I've mainly never actually met, and those people enjoyed it.

It is, indeed, a strange world we are living in.

[PD]

I resemble that remark too (grep or troff, anyone?). Not all of us are created equal. It helps to have kids or grandkids. Or at least not live in your parent's basement.

My Gentoo servers live in my basement.

vi + troff = my favorite authoring environment

[RichatUF]

Rick-

Inhofe has been doing fine work, but I'd like him to marry it to a more aggressive strategy. A start might be to bring ethics charges against all the Dems in the house and senate who have investments in wind and solar plays.

narciso-

That would be my guess. The CIA went out of their way to make the world "safe" for Obamaism, and now their reward will be mass layoffs, the OLC and CIA's IG questioning their every move, and another round of Pike/Church Hearings. Wonder when the first defection will be?

[Mel]

narciso-

Anybody here think that the CIA story looks an awful lot like a Russian "honey trap" and works hand-in-glove with the canceling of the missile defense shield?

Very co-ink-i-dink for my taste. Torch one guy and get the "Continent" back in play Very Russian and very efficient, cold war style.

[Danube of Thought]

Just for the hell of it, I'd like a further requirement that each legislator's signature be under oath.

[mel]

Rick-

Soros has a trifecta on Drudge of "helpful" articles for the financial crisis. The LUN gives away his first position, he's long crude above $60 (my guess, only). The other two I'm going to re-read. This guy is still trying for his world society, now that he's "bought" his boy in the WH.

[RichatUF]

Mel-

Long crude above $60 isn't a surprise with his investment in Petrobras (he sunk over $800 million and I think he is down 50%). It seems odd to me that the break even in Brazil is as high as it is because the oil finds are comperable to Nigeria's and they were drilling in the mid-to-late 1990's.

[DrJ]

vi + troff = my favorite authoring environment

Me too, as it has for 25 years. Of course one has to include tbl, eqn, refer, pic, grap and chem.

Need a port of chem?

[Rick Ballard]

"he's long crude above $60 (my guess, only)"

Maybe but I'll bet he's in deeper in the alt energy scams. The bit in the sidebar about him hitting his minimum +10% target is Bernie Madoff bunkum.

President Zero needs oil above $60 for his scams to pay out as well. Rich has the right idea above - we need Venn diagrams or connection webs showing how the Dem scumbuckets are filling their own pockets. That carbon exchange in Chicago might provide some tidbits.

[PD]

Me too, as it has for 25 years. Of course one has to include tbl, eqn, refer, pic, grap and chem.

Show off.

Name dropper.

:-)

[Amused bystander]

So how can we get Soros's hideous program before people so that they can understand it. How csn we show other financial crises he has caused?

I still say that "crisis" was an assualt. How do we get this out.

[MayBee]

Anybody here think that the CIA story looks an awful lot like a Russian "honey trap"

Heh. He's probably the guy that's been leaking like a sieve to Priest and Risen and now he's no longer useful.

[Pofarmer]

I still say that "crisis" was an assualt. How do we get this out.

Judging from the Democrat callers tonight, I don't think it will matter if it is "out" or not. Nobody is thinking about causes.

[DrJ]

Show off.

Name dropper.

:-)

Maybe, but I do use them all, though I've been using grace for a while instead of grap. Enough with the computer stuff!

[Amused bystander]

Po: explsin? (I am not sure I was talking about hard core dems here.)

[MayBee]

I still say that "crisis" was an assualt. How do we get this out.

My Dad and I were talking about this before the election. We both think so too, but we also wonder if we start to sound like the "new world order!" and "trilateral commission" people.

[Amused bystander]

Maybee: It may not be so far fetched.
If you have not, then you should read those articles by Soros, linked to be Drudge.

Scary stuff, loony too.

Certainly he could not do it alone, but just his run up of his position in Lehman, using that to cover offshore naked shorts, might just be enough to get the ball rolling. It is curious that Lehman went down so fast. Why was he increasing his position so much twoard the end?

The game was to put pressure on institutions so that MBS/CDS and other derivatives had to be push out so they would have to somehow be liquidated. That blew things apart.
It is certainly possible.

There are Soros' people all over this administration, and he is coming out of the woodwork now. What is up with that?

People do not have to understand details you know. If there is enough there that makes sense they will get it.

I cannot understand why the GOP does not get together a working group on this, let Rudy run it.

We need to get this out there. He is extremely oily character and quite repulsive. He just has to be"translated" so the regular American can understand him.

These people really mean to destroy us.

We have to derail this. They are just a tiny bunch of tranzis and foreign tyrants. How many are there, 30k of them? They mean to push us from superpower status so that they can enslave as much of the world as possible, as far as I can see. It is the War against the West. Are we really so weak that we can be so unmanned? hope not.

What is wrong with the democrats? how can the so blithely betray their own nation, their own civilization? I will take my amazement and anger about this to my grave, I know I will. Just pure evil is what this all is.

[PD]

Lady questioning why would you vote against the bill before it goes through the Senate. Intimating that it just might get better?

Well, sure. Everyone knows that the more chances the Democrats have to "lay hands" on a piece of legislation, the more miraculous healing there will be.

[RichatUF]

Mel-

Thanks for the link to the article. This caught my eye: The American consumer can no longer act as the motor of the global economy. Alternative energy and developments that produce energy savings could serve as a new motor, but only if the price of conventional fuels is kept high enough to justify investing in those activities.

I'm sure Americans are going to like "The Age of Scaracity" for 4 years.

Rick, good catch on "we ended the year almost meeting my target of 10 per cent minimum return". I'm glad I'm not the only one who was thinking that way.

[Stephanie]

Check out HR 735 submitted for passage today...

The "Rangel Rule"

Some of these guys are starting to grow on me...

LUN

[RichatUF]

Amused bystander-

It is curious that Lehman went down so fast. Why was he increasing his position so much twoard the end

I don't believe I have seen anyone pin him down on that in any forum. Why did he make a $200 million investment in Lehman common less than 2 months before it collapsed? I haven't read the other articles, but in the FT article it doesn't state he owned a position in Lehman (might have missed it).

[Topsecretk9]

RichatUF

Thanks for the Colombia assist the other day, I read it and then of course I had to go and no time to thank you (and a thread thank would get really, really lost in this new fangled comment sitch).

[Stephanie]

Well that article in FT shows Soros' colors pretty well, doesn't it? The US must be brought down off its high horse (it's too big) and other countries will take up the reigns (free unicorn rides sponsored by the American taxpayer)... kinda lines up with MaObama's thinking doesn't it?

All of his prescriptions for the MaObama administration just happen to coincide with the holdings in his fund... And all the problems he (supposedly) had last year are all due to the big bad US and its evil capitalism...

I call BS on his "most of the year in the red and ended up 10% minimum return" statement, too. A 10% return on a portfolio of 2.86 billion would be a return of over 286 million with most of it coming in the last quarter (according to his statement). He says he was the fund's savior due to his prowess with the dollar in Q4 because he had such keen foresight on figuring out what was happening and shored up his portfolio accordingly - truly omnipotent that George.

More likely he was playing all sides against the middle and orchestrating this with the Lehman holdings as his "beard."

Nothing like a claim of "victim" to distract from your crimes while hiding in your favorite playground of currency trading - which just happens to be one of the least transparent commodities there is, and which has served you so well in the past...

Sorry George, no deal... find your unicorn ride somewhere else.

[JM Hanes]

Fickle, thy name is MayBee!

Besides, I could swear I saw Cantor first. I wonder if he's going on National Review's Mediterranean cruise?

[Stephanie]

How long is it going to take to obtain an EPA/Building/FDA Permit to get the new HooverObamavilles built?

[JM Hanes]

Way to go GOP! Having put a good chunk of time into reading the Monster Mash, I can tell you that if there were ever a time for Republicans to say "Over my dead body," the Stimulus Bill is it. The outright appropriation numbers are only part of the problem!

When I got to the education initiatives, I decided I was wrong about Obama being foggy on the contents. The bill includes $208,500,000,000 (yes, that's 208 BILLION) in new education spending, and gives the Secretary of Edu a seriously expanded portfolio. He will be dispensing money from a newly created $79Billion "State Fiscal Stabilization Fund," and there's another mountain of money aimed at the "disadvantaged" -- in which rural America is prominently noted. Looks to me like someone's trying to raid the Republican base! I really haven't been able to face looking too closely at the Health & Human Services section yet.

BTW, Rep. Virginia "Bipartisan Opposition" Foxx is my Congresswoman, and a stalwart Conservative. I'll tell her that quote is getting a lot play, when I write to express undying gratitude. Now hit & I just need to go to work on Elizabeth Dole's Democratic replacement. Went to look up her name again, only to find that the official Senate Website is experiencing "Internal Server Errors." Who'd a thunk it?

That must have been some cocktail party at the White House tonight! Apparently, Obama thought a spoonful of sugar would help the bill go down -- and got a surprise party instead.

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet]

Is there a Winston Churchill anywhere in the house or the senate? Because it will take someone very like him to turn this thing around.

Even though Rudy isn't a Senator or Member, he just may have the juice -- whatcha think? If not him, who?

[Rick Ballard]

Jim,

The buffoon has only been sleeping in the WH for a little over a week. The '100 day' BS has to play out for at least a few weeks before the real return fire begins.

Rudy would be fine - I'd say Romney better get off his butt as well, if he ever wants to run again. Any private employer paying minimum attention should be leaning the company, wrt employees, as soon as possible. I think the employment blowback on this piece of garbage is going to be a real surprise to the Dems.

"Fire'em now - while you still can" is going to be a rallying cry.

[JM Hanes]

Jake Tapper has the guest list for that Stimulus Shindig at the White House last night. I get the warm fuzzies just thinkin' about it.

[Stephanie]

Having a party to celebrate the passing of the stimulus package without it having passed the senate yet seems kind of "Mission Accomplished" banneresque...

Il est temps pour les sabots ...

[JM Hanes]

Tapper also has yesterday's Press Conference with Robert Gibbs.

OldCool = Distraction
NewCool = Process

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet]

In order to get maximum impact, though, some very persuasive person must present the case against this ridiculous bill and make The One own it.

It doesn't matter how short the time. BHO has been campaigning for his opportunity for 2 years. Remember how quickly LBJ and Reagan moved after they took the oath. And they were held accountable for their early actions in office.

[Stephanie]

So they took out the $385 or whatever million for contraceptives and replaced it with $385 or whatever million of STD prevention?

Are they kidding??? And they are highlighting the cut in contraceptives as MaObama cutting the pork out like he did something?

At least a "three card monte" hustler has the decency to hide the exchange....

JM - "Process" means someone in the WH read a Six Sigma book... Gibbs needs a cracker like a good parrot...

[Stephanie]

Rush has an op-ed on the stimulus

LUN

[Stephanie]

Re the Stimulus "Mission Accomplished Party"

Earlier in the day, White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said the invitation was extended because Obama wants to get to know the lawmakers better and build a working relationship with them so they all can work together, in a bipartisan fashion, to do the people's business.

His senate days must have been part of that rebel-loner phase he went through... no wonder he didn't get anything done.

[PD]

Need a port of chem?

Thanks, but my knowledge of chemistry extends only about as far as decoding a license plate that says AU N GO4S.

[Pofarmer]

Po: explsin? (I am not sure I was talking about hard core dems here.)

Well, my wife and I were discussing this after the conference call. It's pretty obvious that people a)never took any econ at any point in their lives and b) have a wildly misplaced trust in govt. If you try to tell them that the Dim's inside govt are actively trying to destroy the foundations of the country(which they are in my opinion) they are going to look at you like the puppy that just got kicked for no good reason. One lady caller(a democrat) while complaining about rising property taxes(apparently she doesn't understand inflation either) was complaining that "no matter who we elect, taxes keep going up." And I'm thinkin, "Yeah lady, because you keep voting for different DIMOCRATS." It's gonna take SEVERE shock to get people to respond, and then I'm not sure they are going to respond properly. Quite a few of the 8th graders at my kids school just got done writing essay's about how important it was to bring the troops home to make the country safer. Another caller last night, pretty seemingly normal, was just concerned that the congressman said that the cost of this package was the same as the amount of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, when the wars actually cost about 25 billion(maybe) more through this year. People don't have any idea about what justified deficit spending might be. They don't understand why action in Iraq and Afghanistan was neccessary and justified. They don't understand why the world is a safer place today than it would have been with 8 years of the Clinton/Gore status quo. The MSM has done their job very, very well. This could be the end of our Republic, folks.

[Pofarmer]

Oh, and Congressman Luetkemeyer was constantly talking about keeping taxes low and encouraging free enterprise. Most certainly, none of the Democrat callers understood that. It was basically, "How could helping businesses keep more of their money create more jobs?" They don't understand it, just like they don't understand that Federal revenue INCREASED after the Bush tax cuts. What?

[Jane]

Pofarmer,

It's almost as if we have legislated stupidity in this country.

[Pofarmer]

Pofarmer,

It's almost as if we have legislated stupidity in this country.

Well, we certainly haven't discouraged it.

[Ranger]

And more Hopenchange is on the way... http://hotair.com/archives/2009/01/29/obama-appoints-another-bailout-piggy-to-economic-post/>Obama appoints another bailout piggy to economic post

Time for the Rs to ask if there is any limit to the number of "Lobby Waivers" Obama is willing to grant. It needs to be made crystal clear that all those EO signing parties last week were a fraud.

I will not hire anyone who was a lobbiest (except when I do)

I will close GITMO (if I can figure out what to do with the people there)

There will be no more CIA "secret prisons" (except when we actually capture a member of al Qaeda)

We will not torture (unless we think we really need to)

[Ranger]

Sorry about that.

[Amused bystander]

Po, We have to end run those ignorant people somehow. they will only covert later, if ever.
(I do realize that this is a rather big "somehow").

maybe someone with deep pockets needs to buy some major media firms -- I hear that thy are cheap. If not some of those deep pockets will lose everything anyway.

We have to get our best people out there and call them out. get Rudy up there saying just what you said: These people are traitors, they are in foreign hands, they are communists, etc. Outline their program to destroy us.

Start calling things by there real names. This mincing around the issue is part of the problem.

We have nothing to lose but our country.

[Amused bystander]

Steph: but do the America people understand what Soros is about? The GOP leaders have to speak out and clarify what he is really about.

They should be publicly questioning his role in this fiasco and why he is so tied to the Democrats and the international socialists.

[narciso]

You know it's scary when Vladimir Putin, sounds more sensible on this topic, than most of the leadership in either party, from Nordlinger's Davos Diary, third page:

Although additional protectionism will prove inevitable during the crisis, all of us must display a sense of proportion. Excessive intervention in economic activity and blind faith in the state’s omnipotence is another possible mistake. [He has already mentioned others.] True, the state’s increased role in times of crisis is a natural reaction to market setbacks. [But,] instead of streamlining market mechanisms, some are tempted to expand state economic intervention to the greatest possible extent. The concentration of surplus assets in the hands of the state is a negative aspect of anti-crisis measures in virtually every nation.

In the 20th century, the Soviet Union made the state’s role absolute. In the long run, this made the Soviet economy totally uncompetitive. This lesson cost us dearly. I am sure nobody wants to see it repeated.

Nor should we turn a blind eye to the fact that the spirit of free enterprise, including the principle of personal responsibility of businesspeople, investors, and shareholders for their decisions, is being eroded in the last few months. There is no reason to believe that we can achieve better results by shifting responsibility onto the state.

And one more point: Anti-crisis measures should not escalate into financial populism and a refusal to implement responsible macroeconomic policies. The unjustified swelling of the budgetary deficit and the accumulation of public debts are just as destructive as adventurous stock-jobbing.

Now I know this is the pot 'calling the kettle black,'because he's mortgaged his economy to the price of crude, and is losing his shirt, which he doesn't really mind. And he's put the silovki in charge of a large part of the economy. It was still a welcome change of pace from theObamaphilia,
otherwise present at the conference.

Can you imagine if they sent Geithner or even Paulson to this conference, they'd laugh their butt off at him. Maybe Patterson would do

I know, Po, I shudder to think what will be required to correct this imbalance, which has been generational can think of just a few center right professors in my college experience, two in the accounting department, one in Latin American history, and that was some years ago. It's gotten worse since then. The preponderance of like minded folk, promoting their own,propagating
Gramscian memes,stigmatizing all dissident voices, forcing the rest in think tanks, and a few into the slots in the Bush administration.

[jimmyk]

If the Senate Republicans have any cajones, this thing could be to Obama what Hillarycare was to Clinton. There needs to be a filibuster, with a lot of exposure to the more unsavory elements of this bill (ACORN money, etc.), plus a more principled argument about how it is going to lead to permanently larger government. Is there anyone in the Senate who can step up to the plate?

[Amused bystander]

Narciso: one of the things we can do is to start talking back. Puncture those irrational bubbles; short circuit the neural-linguistic programming.Create a counter-cultural response.

Maybe even organize demonstrations and support groups. Take what oppressions that we can to the courts and the streets.

The trick is to stay calm and not expect immediate results, particularity the result of convincing the one you are talking to at the moment. This takes courage, particularly in professional life, but if enough of us do it, it may help.

We have ducked this for far too long. At the very least we will have our self respect.

[Extraneus]

This is what I was thinking of yesterday. Clinton's 1993 stimulus plan was $16B and was defeated. Article by Cheney's buddy, Adam (you-know-what) Clymer:

G.O.P. Senators Prevail, Sinking Clinton's Economic Stimulus Bill

[Extraneus]

That's a great article, btw. Memories...

[jimmyk]

More "stimulus": Obama signs Equal Pay bill into law.

Stimulus, that is, for trial lawyers.

The Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, Mr. Obama's first piece of legislation to sign as president, is designed to make it easier for workers to sue for decades-old discrimination. The law effectively nullifies a 2007 Supreme Court decision that said workers had 180 days to file a pay-discrimination lawsuit.

LUN

[Ranger]

Is there anyone in the Senate who can step up to the plate?

Posted by: jimmyk | January 29, 2009 at 10:09 AM

I think there was a maveriky senator from AZ who hates pork who might be able to stand up to this. As I recall, Obama claimed that ending pork wasn't important because it was such a small part of the overall budget. Now we have 750 Bil in pork being foisted on the people. If McCain had any balls he would stand up on the floor of Senate and say "I refuse to pick the American taxpayers pocket and tell them I am doing them a favor at the same time."

[Pofarmer]

Apalled, I am really, really, really afraid we've lost this round. The only way to get things back on track is to disenfranchise some voters. There's a reason that the founding fathers had Only male property owners voting. I'm not saying go back that far, but we at least need some sort of a basic political literacy class and test to vote. I don't think education is gonna "Git-r-done". I'm exposing my little Bro to Boortz, and Rush, and Hannity while he's here working for me, so I'm trying to do my part. But it's gonna be slow, and it's gonna take time, and I'm not sure that we have the luxury of a lot of time here before we careen off the rails.

[caro]

I wish there was a style manual that made writing out full figures a must. $1T just does not compare to $1,000,000,000,000.00. Maybe more voters would get the picture.

[Sue]

jimmyk,

Getting us ready for going back decades for reparations?

[sbwaters]

A draft editorial, "The Sun King's stimulus" just for fun:

Flush with success in passing his economic bill in the House of Representatives, Barack Obama postures a parallel to FDR during the depression. More striking is Obama’s parallel to France’s Louis XIV (1638-1715).

Louis was called the Sun King, because, just as the planets revolved around the sun, the country and the court should revolve around him. Louis came to power very young, manipulated by old hands behind the scenes. He exploited public yearnings for peace and order to work to increase the power of the state. Increasing control, Louis forced many nobles and courtiers to live near him in his lavish capitol where he dispensed large sums to finance his royal court. The congress of his time rubberstamped his will. Louis maintained their allegiance by doling out grants and subsidies to his favorites and supporting the writings of those who supported him.

Louis effectively bankrupted the national treasury, forcing him to levy higher taxes on the peasants — many nobility being exempt. Through his finance minister, Colbert, he introduced more efficient taxation, increased customs duties, and taxed more goods and property. A mercantilist who believed in government, not entrepreneurship, Louis gave special treatment to select industries to decrease dependence on foreign goods. Lobbying and palace intrigue became the primary means to special favors.

Louis XIV left his country in serious financial difficulties, which the timid, indecisive Louis XV (1710-1774) failed to overcome. Louis XV’s one bright light was his doctor, Francois Quesnay, who was one of the first to try to analyze economic behavior.

In 1776, Adam Smith, well-traveled and well-received in France, wrote that Quesnay’s understanding of economic relationships was, next to writing and money, among the greatest inventions to stabilize political society. Quesnay studied the source of wealth and its distribution among economic classes and believed the practical economist and the statesman should work to increase the nation’s net product.

In the media-glitzed, post-history world of today, voters have forgotten Louis XIV, Quesnay, and Adam Smith’s warning to distrust every special interest including big government. In the name of the people, the powerful play politics to preserve their authority at the expense of future generations. Their excessive, misdirected borrowing from our children’s wallet will hit rich and poor alike and take years to recover. Like a slow motion automobile crash, the mistakes of Louis XIV are about to be repeated before our eyes.

Such is the new Sun King’s “stimulus” we are about to receive.

[Extraneus]

Good one, sbw.

[Stephanie]

Republicans need to do more outreach to High Schools and colleges in getting groups started to spread the message. All they see are environmental groups, LGBT groups, and liberal groups. Competition on their ground will help..

[glasater]

What was amazing to me is that even Jim Cramer does not like this stimulus package.
He was even derogatory regarding Pelosi not that long ago on Street Signs. Hope his comments get a whole bunch of press.

[Jane]

Last week Jim Cramer said that he spoke with his lawyer who told him they didn't know half the stuff about Geithner's tax situation and if he did it, he's be in jail, and that got no coverage.

[glasater]

Jane--had forgotten about that Cramer comment re Geithner and thanks for the reminder but he did say today that Zero should come out and oppose Pelosi and Reid on the stimulus package.

[jimmyk]

I think there was a maveriky senator from AZ who hates pork who might be able to stand up to this.

Yeah, what was that dude's name again? He seems to have disappeared from this debate.

So far I've only seen one Rep senator quoted to suggest strong opposition:

“Democrats may have the votes to succeed, but we have a moral responsibility as a loyal opposition to express our honest concerns,” says Sen. Jeff Sessions (R) of Alabama. “This is a question of what direction America is going to take: Will we continue this spasm of spending the likes of which we’ve never seen before or will we show more restraint?”

LUN

[C.R.]

LUN - if anyone could use a laugh.

"The Janeane Garofalo Tax Credit"

[clarice]

Didn't the Sun King spend a lot of that money on helping us get England out of here?

[hit and run]

Jane:
Last week Jim Cramer said that he spoke with his lawyer who told him they didn't know half the stuff about Geithner's tax situation and if he did it, he's be in jail, and that got no coverage.

We've got a http://www.news-record.com/content/2009/01/29/article/house_member_from_yadkin_county_trying_to_settle_back_tax_bill>newly minted state rep who has some back tax troubles. A Republican.

No fireworks yet. Or maybe none forthcoming because Geithner's got him covered...what Dem is going to make hay about back taxes now?

[sbwaters]

Didn't the Sun King spend a lot of that money on helping us get England out of here?

Not so much. Louis XIV put explorers into the Mississippi. Louis XV was the one who ceded everything back to Great Britain after the Seven Years War in the Treaty of Paris, 1763, according to Wikipedia, losing India, Canada, and everything east of the Mississippi.

[clarice]

Former DC Mayor Berry already on probation for failing to pay taxes was caught not paying taxes while on probation, the judge let him off and now it turns out he's again failed to pay taxes--this time for 2007.
Guess he follows the Rangel rule.

Rick, word is thry some typo no one on the committee caught ALL the buy America provisions in the House bill were dropped when they voted on it. No one knows how it happened. I guess God works in mysterious ways.

[bad]

Amen!!

[Neo]

While POTUS Obama may have given the Republicans the "pleasure of his company," it appears that the "feeling of bipartisanship" stopped there. Rep. Mike Pence is reported to have said to the president, "Know that we're praying for you. . . . But know that there has been no negotiation [with Republicans] on the bill—we had absolutely no say."

Now I'd like to hear one Democrat say that if the shoe had been on the other foot that their world would be sunshine and unicorns. While former Democratic Speakers like "Tip" ONeill and Jim Wright may have been "Democrats first," compared to Speaker Pelosi, they now look like "shoe-ins" for the bipartisanship prize.

[glasater]

If anyone gets back this far in the threads--I've recently discovered this writer Robert Tracinski.
Any one of his articles is worthy of reading.