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February 02, 2009

Comments

Jane

Well, no one has been able to apply the pressure needed to get him to reveal his papers. I expect that per the newfound requirements, the old mortgage terms will be shredded at closing.

WE need a bead on that Ireland property.

Barney Frank

Dodd is qualified for Barry's cabinet.

Amounts to "I am appointing a trustee to manage my bribes in a blind trust to avoid any appearance of impropriety".

Danube of Thought

These folks have the White House and both houses of congress, and it's quite obvious they feel they can do whatever they want to do. Who's going to stop them?

Neo
The Las Vegas Wranglers (14-14-3) revealed the jersey designs for their "Rod Blagojevich Prison Uniform Night" on Friday, Jan. 30 against the Bakersfield Condors.

The Wranglers will wear jerseys with broad, horizontal black and white stripes with nameplates that read, "ILLGOV" followed by each player's number for the 7:30 p.m. contest. Bakersfield jerseys are bright orange Department of Corrections style uniforms while the ECHL referees can finally act as real police in the specially designed blue jerseys.

I'm sure there's room in the schedule for a "Chris Dodd/CountryWide Night"

Pofarmer

These folks have the White House and both houses of congress, and it's quite obvious they feel they can do whatever they want to do. Who's going to stop them?

A good friend and I had this very conversation yesterday. And, I think the answer is, untill the population is willing to actually rise up, nobody.

fdcol63

" ... These folks have the White House and both houses of congress ..."

They also have the media, academia, Hollyweird, and government bureaucracies.

Which in turn have indoctrinated a majority of people in this country over the past 30+ years into believing their BS.

Unfortunately, there's not enough of the rest of us to stop them.

Neo

First it was George W. Bush. Now it's ...

CAMBRIDGE, England — A protester threw a shoe at China's Prime Minister Wen Jiabao during his speech at Cambridge University, police said Monday.
How long before it's "The One" ?

kim

Sabotage takes on a new meaning.
=================================

pagar

Which in turn have indoctrinated a majority of people in this country over the past 30+ years into believing their BS.

IMO, they owe it all to William Ayers and his Communist Party pals.

Barney Frank

Since we're tslking mortgages I wonder if I could get Rich's, Rick's, matt's or anyone else's take on this question.

Holman Jenkins at the WSJ a few months back proposed, fairly seriously I thought, that if the government was intent on intervening the smartest, quickest and maybe even cheapest solution to the financial crisis would be for the government to directly buy up a large portion of the overhanging housing inventory and bulldoze it.

By my calculations around $700 billion would buy up the entire inventory of new (350,000+) and existing (3,500,000+) homes on the market and of course there would be no need to buy all or even nearly all of them. Why not just take the second $350b of TARP and immediately eliminate the housing oversupply? The banks are relieved of their toxic assets and the pressure to continue raising capital, homebuilders and realtors (not to mention timber owners like me) are relieved of the oversupply that's killing them, homeowners are presumably relieved of the continuing plunge in real estate prices and even some sanity might prevail in the CDS, MBS markets.
It's a bad idea but any alternative I've so far seen discussed seems worse.
What are some of the problems I'm not seeing and are they worse than the ones attached to every other stupid idea that has surfaced?

pagar

The comments on TM's link to Ed's post just keep getting better:

Jamie Gorelick also benefited from these sweetheart loans and claimed that despite working at Fannie Mae she had no idea her super duper low rate was less than what the little people paid. Which is a bit like being in the dairy business and not knowing the price of a cow.

Seems like there have been several at Fannie Mae who didn't have a clue.

Daddy

I'm not cutting Chris Dodd any slack at all until Bob Dole tells me he's a good guy.

dk70

He's probably getting a better rate now than with Countrywide.

squeakie

a scratch your head moment - wnd has an article concerning rep. alcee hastings {d} and a bill he's presenting that calls for a minimum of 6 emergency/detention centers to be built. would be located on military bases. i was hoping for a room with a view at a newly refurbished gitmo.

bad

dk70, spot on!!

steve sturm

TM: Am I the first to get the (musical) reference? Or just the first to mention it?

fdcol63

Jamie Gorelick = Mistress of Doom

bad

Am I the first to get the (musical) reference?

I thought TM was using the advertisement (which is musical) as a post title.

"Countrywide is on your side."

boris

How 'bout "I'm Bad, I'm Nationwide" ZZTop

peter

Perfect for throwing at Zero at LUN

PeterUK

Sorry to sound English with an obsession about the weather,but has anyone noticed that the weather has got worse since Obama was elected?

jimmyk

the smartest, quickest and maybe even cheapest solution to the financial crisis would be for the government to directly buy up a large portion of the overhanging housing inventory and bulldoze it.

Really bad idea, in my humble opinion. (I realize you are quoting someone else.) It's akin to the "Broken Windows" fallacy of Bastiat: You don't destroy in order to increase value. Abundance is good. We need to let prices fall to where there's no longer an excess of supply. There was a WSJ op-ed on Friday or Saturday making this point: Let the foreclosures begin, get houses into the hands of people that can afford them (that will be lots of people if prices are allowed to fall), get it resolved, and move on.

kim

He's been everywhere, man, he's been everywhere.
=========================================

jimmyk

That WSJ op-ed on foreclures ("Why be a Nation of Mortgage Slaves") is LUN.

JM  Hanes

PUK:

I'm sure that's Bush/Cheney/Rove trying to throw a mean spirited wrench into Obama's good works -- or leaving The One to reap the whirlwind of their failure to regulate.

bad

Boris, I think DC is well defined by, BAD TO THE BONE

fdcol63

Someone needed to regulate Congressional Dems' efforts to provide mortgages to those who we already knew were going to be risky credit borrowers.

Barney Frank

jimmyk,

My favored solution would be to halve the capital gains and corporate taxes permanently and payroll taxes temporarily while slashing, not increasing the size of government and allowing the price mechanism to work.
I think Jenkins' question was, given we're going to blow hundreds of billions anyway and the governments immeasurable capacity to bollox up whatever it tries, is his idea the least, worst of a bad lot and one the government is least likely to completely botch?

bad

..has anyone noticed that the weather has got worse since Obama was elected?

It's harder for the oceans to rise when they're frozen.

Jane

Boy something has got to give in this new administration soon. EVERYONE is angry, depressed or making excuses. Obama constantly talks about doom. His expectations are becoming our reality.

The moonbats are agitated that they don't have Bush to kick around, the comedians refuse to mock Zero and the rest of us are scared about the next shoe dropping.

An attitude adjustment seems to be in order.

PeterUK

bad,
"It's harder for the oceans to rise when they're frozen."

I think a better explanation is that The One is treading them down by walking on them.

bad

The One is treading them down by walking on them.

I thought Jessica Simpson was the fat one...

bad

...or is he carrying someone while treading?

kim

Nature Magazine's cover article by Eric Steig is about newly discovered West Antarctic warming. Today, Steve McIntyre finds a critical station completely misplaced in the record, probably, astonishingly, negating the whole study. Details at climateaudit.org in the Harry meets Gill thread. Really, the straws at which the warmers are now grasping.
==================================

bad

finds a critical station completely misplaced in the record

Let me guess. The station was in the Sahara instead of the West Antarctic.

PeterUK

"...or is he carrying someone while treading?"

Yes he carries all of you in his hands.All 300 million of you,well not so much the Republicans,but a good percentage of that 300 million.Well,at least members of the Democrat party,or at least a handful of cronies climbing to power on his back.But he is definitely a carrier.

Jane

Glen Beck just said that Dodd released his papers today. Anyone see them yet?

kim

No, bad, but Michael 'Piltdown' Mann got Spain in Kenya, or vice versa, once. He's involved in the statistics for this one, too, which might explain why one, possibly cherry-picked, site is so important to the results. It's a mess, but really, most of climate science, per se, is. Most of the rest of the scientific disciplines have just gone along with the handiest excuse for apparent warming. Now that we are cooling, nobody really knows what to do or think. Note that nobody know for how long we are cooling, either, not even kim.
=======================================

Amused bystander

Barney: I suggested almost the same solutions to some liberal semi-big-wig the other day and he called me a "neanderthal". No way, Jose.

We are just indulging in wishful thinking.

What morons. They will make a global depression out of this when it could have been just a 5 quarter recession.

I am beginning think that they are doing it on purpose to destroy America as a force for good in the world.

Rocco

Evidently, Dodd and Obama have the same friends. From TM's link...

Dodd says he's moving the loans in part because he was wrongfully labeled a friend of Countrywide's former CEO, Angelo Mozilo. Dodd says he never sought special treatment.

From a June 2008, LA Times blog...

Two degrees of separation: The Wall Street Journal reports that a very special friend of Sen. Barack Obama is also a very special friend of embattled Countrywide Financial co-founder Angelo Mozilo.
PeterUK

kim,
There was a theory that sunspots affected human behaviour. Basically the more active the sunspots the more active were humans,probably all animals. The less sunspot activity,the less human activity.
I think we are going into global hibernation.One has only to look at the cessation of financial confidence and the contraction of the world economy.
We are in the Scheisse.
It is still snowing here.

Extraneus

Duly noted, kim.

PeterUK

He's Got the Whole World in His Hands.

He's got the whole world in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.

He's got my brothers and my sisters in His hands,
He's got my brothers and my sisters in His hands,
He's got my brothers and my sisters in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.

He's got the sun and the rain in His hands,
He's got the moon and the stars in His hands,
He's got the wind and the clouds in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.

He's got the rivers and the mountains in His hands,
He's got the oceans and the seas in His hands,
He's got you and he's got me in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.

He's got everybody here in His hands,
He's got everybody there in His hands,
He's got everybody everywhere in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.

Topsecretk9

Pagar

Posted by: pagar | February 02, 2009 at 03:27 PM


Obama's special envoy to Pakistan and Afghanistan -- Richard Holbrooke is a friend of Angelo too.

Extraneus

Dodd is an idiot. He's now got he #1 headline on Fox News Politics, and who wouldn't assume that refinancing now is just going to lower his rate further?

Amused bystander

PeterUK: Well, if it affect only humans then I am not sure if you theory would apply in this case.

Peter, have you ever actually met a Democrat?

Neo

"Well, the sub-prime is, was approaching $1 trillion, the Alt-A is about $1 trillion. And then you have option ARMs on top of that. That's probably another $500 billion to $600 billion on top of that," Tilson says.

That's $2.6 trillion of possibly bad loans

Neo

That's $2.6 trillion of possibly bad loans toxic assests

PeterUK

" Well, if it affect only humans then I am not sure if you theory would apply in this case."

I did say probably animals also.


Yes,mostly multimillionaire socialists.

Amused bystander

Jane, all that glooming and dooming by the O goes to show he has never really managed anyone or anything in his life.

The manager of a 3 man walk in real estate firm would know better than to spread doom like that.

It is extremely hard for most people to reach the age of 48 and not know the very simple fact that you do not let the team (or the audience) know how bad you think it is.

No control over that mouth of his.

Either that or he is up to something. Or both.

Cannot go on like this, that's for sure.

MayBee

He can't stop being gloomy until he's gotten a bill passed, don't you think?

Rick Ballard

Barney,

I agree with Jimmyk - ungood idea. There has been a deliberate conflation of the available inventory/sales ratio with the term "overbuilt". If I ever see a housing stock/population article which actually deals with the demographic issues, I'll read it very carefully.

I would be in favor of revving up the Cats in Buffalo, Cleveland, Detroit, parts of Chicago etc. There is a ton of useless housing stock that will never be sold sitting in those places but it's not currently on the market anyway. That would accelerate the 'natural' attrition rate of .5% for a short period, would get the overall supply number down and might shut down some of the more idiotic 'oversupply' buffoons.

It's not as if the housing stock/population ratio jumps around so wildly that a correct 'build' number can't be calculated for every metropolitan area in the country. I've been playing with a Craigslist/ratio of rental income to purchase price for areas with good rental potential. It really isn't that hard to come up with 8-10% cash on cash returns. That's not going to last.

Amused bystander

PeterUk: animals? I was thinking a little lower than that.

Amused bystander

maybee: think it will stop with this bill?

It is going to be one screwup and one outrage after another. We will be a perpetual state of gloom and doom, i fear.

It might be genuine. I'd bet that he cannot really deal with it. No matter how much of a front man he is, he still carries the responsibility, and how many fawning MSM interview s can he and Michelle pull off before everyone, and I mean everyone, tunes out.

I bet their internal polling is not pretty for them.

Will we have a real freak out?

Barry Dauphin

Chris Dodd, responsible for a new term: Mortgage laundering.

Jane

Jane, all that glooming and dooming by the O goes to show he has never really managed anyone or anything in his life.

I agree. It's so not leadership. I think he's planning to announce sometime soon that he made things better sooner than anyone expected. A little optimism would have made things better a while ago, and we'd be walking to the end of this mess. Now I think it will outlive me.

Gawd he sure has me depressed.

Extraneus

I don't guess Michelle is going to too wear well with Joe Sixpack.

mel

Neo-

Just a point from where I sit, a "toxic" asset is probably, at best, a misnomer. The meltdown in credit markets, that started with the sub-prime stuff and then rolled into all the other mortgage classes, really was based on the rampant borrowing by the professional investment class to purchase these high yielding pieces of carp. This outrageous demand by people who had borrowed sometimes up to $37 for every $1 in cash they actually had (think Bear Stearns) fostered the ninja originations and the option arms and the alt-A's. All to try and get a piece of the yields of higher and higher coupons that this junk generated.

Keep in mind that most of these "securities" (CDOs, CMOs, and the like) were being bought up with borrowed money. Lots of it. Borrowed from firms like Goldman, Lehman, Bear, Citi, Merrill, and so on, just so long as the borrowers would trade with whom they borrowed. Then, sometime in 2007, the housing market started to lose buyers. Perhaps the prices were getting silly, the returns on the securities weren't as good as last month, or some trigger started the Margin call. The mother of all margin calls. Those who borrowed money to buy this stuff suddenly had paper losses that had to be covered and they couldn't cover the overnight loan payments. Everybody tried to hit the door at once.

"Toxic" assets are ones that you wouldn't use "his" money to buy, because Everyone is trying to sell the exact same stuff, just to try and stay alive. Suddenly, that loan of $37 for every $1 of cash was a weight dragging everyone down. Bear dies first, and the bodies just start dropping, trying to claw back that same $37 that's now worth $5, and falling.

Bulldozing was a California builder's idea (can't remember who right now) because for him, it was cheaper.

Sorry, I know this is long but I've only seen a few pieces actually describe what I've witnessed in the markets for the last 18 months. They don't even try to grasp the size of the whole thing.

PeterUK

AB
Jackals are animals.

MayBee

maybee: think it will stop with this bill?

You have a point. Obama has been unable to name one time during the history of this country wherein the economy was satisfactory.
As a candidate, he ran against the 90's and Clinton and Bush.

As far as I can remember, he has only spoken approvingly of the New Deal, the team of rivals, and FDR and Kennedy meeting with our enemies.

PeterUK

Al Gore needs to get some carbon offsets for this I will bet none of the warmeristas will factor in the eruption in Japan.

JM Hanes

PUK:

Not to worry! Gore can buy all the offsets he needs from himself, through ">http://www.generationim.com/site/disclaimer.htmloo"> Generation Investment Management LLP, his UK investment firm.

PeterUK

JMH,
Yes,but will he have enough offsets when he is sent to the chair for crimes against humanity?
One day there will be a Nuremberg trial for all those who perpetrated this hoax,because quite bluntly,people are going to die.

RichatUF

Barney, jimmyk-

The Radical Solution. Thought it was a bad idea at the time, but shoveling another $350 billion into the banks, while Schumer et al stand on the oxygen line, probably won't help either.

More later.

Rocco
The WSJ

June 25, 2008

The Illinois attorney general's office, which began an investigation into the business practices of Countrywide Financial Corp. last fall, says it has found enough evidence of wrongdoing that it plans to file a civil suit against the mortgage lender and its chief executive, Angelo Mozilo.

If Angelo Mozilo was giving the good ole boys low interest loans, was Lisa Madigan really going after him or was it all lip service?

JM Hanes

Biofuels have already gotten that process underway. I also think the push toward electric cars etc. (as if electricity is clean!) is also pretty ironic as a security matter, when you realize that electric grids are the most vulnerable to disastrous disruption.

JM Hanes

Last comment was to PUK.

mel

Rocco-

A Madigan never gives "lip" service.

Ever.

Anywhere but Illinois, as I understand it.

ben

Date 2/2/08

Presidential Approval Index

Strongly Approve 41

Strongly Disapprove 24

Total Approve 60

Total Disapprove 38

According to Rasmussen, these numbers were 65-30 only ten days ago....pretty soon they will be mere mortal numbers, not messiah numbers....

mel

Rocco-

Unless you're talking about the late Lake Forest College graduate, Richard Widmark, in his signature role, Madigan (LUN).

Jane

PUK,

How much snow did you get?

Amused bystander

peterUK: I was thinkin' way lower, like down in Dante's haunts.

Amused bystander

ben: and i bet thse numbers are tweaked to. The WH internals are brutal, I'd bet. He so far is worse than carter. All he has going for him is the kiddies do not remember ole Jimbo.

MayBee

Barack Obama's new FDR:
"The only thing we have to fear... is the future."

noname

mel: I think you might be right. I think what happened to Madoff is similar to what happened to banks - they borrowed money and suddenly they didn't have enough money to cover losses. They had to get money or their company would fail - the bailout was a way to transfer money from every citizen in the country over to people at banks and wealthy shareholders who needed it.

We already know some of that money was used to pay bonues and buy other companies. I also think Obama mentioned high salaries and bonuses at banks as a way to distract people so they wouldn't notice what Bernanke and Geithner are doing. After giving banks almost a trillion dollars they're about to buy all those "toxic" assets from them for more than they're worth. This is a scam and nobody cares.

pagar

TS9, It seems every one in this administration is a friend of Angelo. Will that last or will they all refinance? Stay tuned for the next exciting - "I was never a friend of Angelo" story.

Danube of Thought

I'm squarely in JimmyK's camp re BarneyF's question, and I think Jenkins must have been having a little fun. Since when is an oversupply that results in lower prices a bad thing for consumers? Let the market clear...

PaulL

Anecdote: I was at a dinner party Saturday night with 100% confirmed liberals and ultra-liberals. There was not one word spoken favorable about Obama the entire night.

There was complete agreement that the Daschle, Geitner, and the hiring-of-lobbyists episodes were very disappointing, even disgusting.

Barney Frank

Thanks for digging that WSJ article up Rich. Didn't realize it was that long ago.

It's not as if the housing stock/population ratio jumps around so wildly that a correct 'build' number can't be calculated for every metropolitan area in the country.

Even in this market Rick?
We've only got 350,000+ unsold new homes sitting out there and the number keeps going down but not as fast as new home sales so the number of months of inventory keeps going up. In Dec 07 we had 500,000 on the market for a 10 month supply. Now we've got 360,000 for a 13 month supply.

It's all academic anyway. With this crowd we know whatever options they have to choose from they'll make the same choice Moe, Larry and Curly would, except we'll be the ones getting brained by their misdirected monkey wrench.

RichatUF

Hit linked it on another thread (or somewhere), but his efforts should be lauded.

The elusive 1040DEM. Report the income you wish to report and be patriotic. For the Children.

mel

noname-

I'm not going to go that far because of two things. One, the actual losses exist and they are massive. The deleveraging (margin call, repo, what have you) is the cause of the current deflation. Remember, as ALL asset classes ran up on this borrowing (stocks, debt, and so on), the "discovery" of new asset classes in commodities also ran up with the borrowing. Why else but with billions and billions of dollars being thrown AT THE BUY SIDE ONLY of, say, crude oil, would the price not go to the moon? When that collapsed, well, you saw what happened...

This was pretty broad based and as we all know, bubbles don't last. The damage, however, needed to be mitigated in some form. Hence TARP and CPP, to make up for the FASB's obsession with mark to market, and to keep the most solvent afloat, and to let the miscreants die slowly. The shock of all that loss being realized all at once would be like saying good bye to all your savings and then getting handed the bill to the inaugural parties.

Secondly, real people are on the street because of the actions of a very greedy few. The New York real estate market is about to get its first correction since the onset of World War II. You think the howling's bad now, wait until that reality sets in. I, personnaly, know that there are hedge fund managers telling themselves that they are better and above all this.

They are not.

The threat to the financial system was desperately real, and, not cleanly, partially resolved.

The bad part is, it looks like Congress is going down the exact same path they took in 1934 and are going to hike taxes. That, and Smoot Hawley were the straws that finally broke the (small buz owner's) camel's back. I have my set of the Firefox series, anybody else keep theirs? I just hope I don't have to teach my wife how to make soap, she won't like that job.

Amused bystander

PaulL: what about the stimulus package? What was the buzz.

oh, put in for combat pay. The arugula must have been fearsome.

Barney Frank

Since when is an oversupply that results in lower prices a bad thing for consumers?

When it leads to a severe recession and credit crunch wherein consumers (prospective new home buyers) no longer have the means or security to consume.

As I said before, my preferred solution is to make business and taxpayers liquid through tax cuts and shrinking government in which case markets can clear relatively efficiently, but good sense, free market policies are not in the cards.
I'm just still not convinced his 'radical solution' would not in the long run lead to less pernicious government intervention and might in fact be the only thing so simple that the idiot commissars would not irretrievably screw things up.

bad

What did the libs thing of the porkulous bill, PaulL?

mary ware

You all can make fun of this all you want--but personally, I think it is all tragic--we now have a treasury secetary who has cheated or not revealed his taxes and Eric Holder who is corrupt and Tom who is definitely corrupt. What on earth are we to do about this? It is all so sad to me and also mind-bogglinging, Mary

Amused bystander

Barney: Fat chance of that happening.

boris

Well the best might be for it all to go FUBAR fast enough for a complete congress reboot in 2010. If enough biz folk said no recovery no how until the clown show leaves town that might do the trick.

Let 'em call us unpatriotic, after what they pulled during the WoT it would just piss us off even more.

PaulL

At the dinner party (no weird salad), no one brought up the porkulous bill or anything else Obama. I think that in itself is pretty telling. I expected some "Obama will take care of it" kind of talk, but there wasn't any.

My reading of it is there is already an understanding that they were conned with Hope 'n' Change and that it will be politics as usual, as they definitely saw in the naming of the Obama Team members.

It's not that they would have considered voting Republican or anything like that. It's just that they're already becoming disillusioned.

noname

Mel: I think the losses are real also - but the Madoff had losses that were real also, it was the profits that weren't real.

I think for the last few years banks have made billions from fees, commissions, loans they knew wouldn't be paid, their shareholders made lots of money from dividends that were based on profits that weren't real - it all started to fall apart a few months ago. The financial crisis was real but the bailout was an excuse to transfer money to banks so they could pay bonuses and for the losses on their balance sheets but that wasn't what congress told people it was for.

Now they're all blaming Paulson for everything - Barney Frank claims he let the banks have the money for bonues so there is nothing anyone in congress can do now but they're still giving those banks more money. This is all a scam, they knew exactly what was happening.

Amused bystander

mary ware: it is just our way of dealing with it.

What do we do? get it out to everybody.

If thy accept it I do not know what to say.

In many parts of the world, people are inured to this open corruption. It corrupts populations after a time. The USSR was like that. Latin America is like that, Africa and parts of the EU too.

Do we know how widely this info is hitting out there? I do not mean on the internet.


mary

What on earth are all of you planning to do? I think all of this is simply horrible and no thoughts as to how we can survive? It is a desperate and horrible time, and I, honestly, think there is absolutely nothing we can do. The Pubs in the Senate will fall over for Daschle and there we are. Soooo, what to do? Mary

Amused bystander

Paul: that is my take too in my end of the woods, which is uber-liberal.

No one actually has any passion at all.

Well if they stay home next time that is good.

I look at it as a teaching experience. A lot of them have no idea what real socialism is heretofore.

The trick is to get them to see that they were coned about that too.

We may get there. It has been hard to understand obamamania. people have been extra loony. Maybe they will learn that the media is lying to them. we might pull off some.

peter (us, not uk)

OK, I figured it out on my own, since everyone here ignored me (sigh.) If the groundhog does not see his shadow, then spring will be here early. If he does see his shadow, then the banking crisis is going to last so long that our President will have to switch to a less expensive cut of Kobe beef, and lower his thermostat to 79.

Renee

The corruption has been there. Treasury does what it's told including giving away 100s of billions in 'grant loans' foreign aid. See why it's the loans and Joe?

'Walker is extraneous' LU/

PD

...or is he carrying someone while treading?

Is that a "footprints in the sand" reference?

Pofarmer

In many parts of the world, people are inured to this open corruption. It corrupts populations after a time. The USSR was like that. Latin America is like that, Africa and parts of the EU too.

When we are well and truly screwed is when the avg Joe says "Screw it, I'm gonna get mine too."

Obviously, our "leadership" is largely already there. The only thing between the U.S. and a banana republic is the citizens, for now.

Pofarmer

mary

Live your life, raise your family, fight the good fight. That's what I intend to do. If you can help to make changes on the local level, then do it.

PD

As far as I can remember, he has only spoken approvingly of the New Deal, the team of rivals, and FDR and Kennedy meeting with our enemies.

It's always greener on the other side of the economic reality that you've actually experienced.

bad

PD, it was a snarky poke at a lightweight who would never carry anyone but his overgrown, yet juvenile ego.

O isn't worthy of a footprints in the sand reference.

Pofarmer

When it leads to a severe recession and credit crunch wherein consumers (prospective new home buyers) no longer have the means or security to consume.

But that ain't the problem. The problem is we had too loose credit for too long. This isn't a housing problem, it's a credit problem. It's an undersupply of consumers, not an over supply of housing, per se.

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