The Stimulus Discussion

I hope to tune in to the C-Span coverage of the Senate stimulus debate about the time it degenerates to "Yo, I got a big stimulus package for you right here.  Yeah?  Stimulate this!".  Shouldn't be long.

Charles Krauthammer is very good on the fierce urgency of pork.

[END OF THREAD]

Comments

[PeterUK]

Some dissent about the Stimulus in Camp Obama.

[peter]

Pure evil. H/T Patterico (LUN)

[PD]

A WaPo article on Obama's upcoming prime-time TV appearances.

Sample:

Broadcasters are bracing themselves for the likelihood of three prime-time interruptions in three weeks, totaling at least three hours of prime time -- and ad breaks -- yanked.

"His economic stimulus package apparently does not extend to the TV networks," one network exec noted.

[bad]

Spendulus, Porkulus... Get with the lingo TM. Stimulus is soooo last week.

[bad]

PUK, what is the world coming to when Excrement Andy has a reasonable moment..

[Danube of Thought]

The problem with all of these very cogent arguments against the stimulus, such as those quoted by Sullivan in PeterUK's link, is that some in the GOP and the "moderate" Dems are already quite willing to sign off on the thing if the total number is reduced to, say, $800B. I believe it would pass in an instant if the figure were reduced to that level.

But if that happens, all of the horrendous, permanent spending and governmental intervention will be enacted into law.

I think perhaps the most offensive provision of all--well, one of the most offensive--is the use of the federal treasury to bail out states (California) that have chronically lived far beyond their means. In the final analysis, the CA legislature and the disastrous governor will bear no consequence at all for their shameful behavior.

[Jane]

The man is on a permanent campaign. How long will it be before he takes over the airwaves? And will it be before or after he declares Marshall law?

[MayBee]

Gad. Andrea Mitchell just said the Obama people were too busy to write the stimulus bill, they just had too much on their plate to be expected to do it.

[Pofarmer]

Broadcasters are bracing themselves for the likelihood of three prime-time interruptions in three weeks, totaling at least three hours of prime time -- and ad breaks -- yanked.

I would suggest that they do like they did with Bush's speechs. Ie, not cover them.

OTOH, Zero is getting into Hugo Chavez territory here.

[noname]

Do the people that Obama has on his new Economic Recovery Board get salaries?

[Jane]

I think you are right DOT.

[Danube of Thought]

Well, at least one other person (Judge Andrew Napolitano) thinks the salary caps are unoconstitutional. He says the whole TARP thing is, too. (LUN)

Who will litigate this thing?

[MayBee]

But besides the economic hit, broadcasters are worried that this kind of shock-and-awe approach to prime-time preempting might be part of an Obama strategy to charm his way to a new economic-rescue plan. "As we're meeting this guy, from a network perspective, it's like, 'Is this part of the plan for him?' " the network exec said. "Is this what it's going to be: Is he going to take to the airwaves every time he has something to say?"

Such a strategy, of course, could backfire.

Obama should listen carefully to this, because I can guarantee you the people saying it are Democrats.

I don't think Americans want to turn on a sitcom and instead see the next episode of President Glum.

[Appalled]

DoT:

Who will litigate? Some bank president who does not get a golden parachute when he is canned after taking the TARP $$. (All the judge made law involving executive comp comes out of cases like that.)

[PeterUK]

For those who have not seen it,The Stimulus - Youtube.

[Appalled]

MayBee:

The TV in the lobby has non-stop CNN. All you see when you go to get a cup of coffee is non-stop Obama. It is exasperating.

[Captain Hate]

Pure evil. H/T Patterico (LUN)

That was linked at AoS yesterday. Completely disgusting including the journo-tard that calls it an "abortion" when it's clearly murder of a child which had been born.

[PDinDetroit]

"If we do not move swiftly to sign [the act] into law, an economy that is already in crisis will be faced with catastrophe," he said.

Now why does this remind me of AGW Rhetoric?

LUN.

The politics of FEAR (False Evidence Appearing Real) is alive and well in Obama's WhiteHouse.

[MayBee]

At least Obama was smart enough not to test Fox (and the American public) by asking for American Idol's time slot on Tues or Wed.

[Rick Ballard]

"It is exasperating."

What do you have against puling, puking punks who have to be led out of phone booth? Is the It's Midnight in America message getting a bit stale for you? Don't worry - he's got the throttle to the floor and the reins in a firm grip. He's really going places.

[Captain Hate]

The Stimulus - Youtube.

I'm thinking that Steele gutting the sycophants and toadies from the RNC should lead to a decline in sales of "stimulus" type drugs of possibly up to 48%

[matt]

can we bring a RICO lawsuit against Congress?

[Jane]

Oh gawd it is Robert Gibbs time again.

[Rick Ballard]

A second look at TurboTimmy. I particularly liked this:

Tactically it was a smart move for Obama to take responsibility for nominating and supporting a tax cheat for high office. As a practical matter, his stance creates a credibility problem for Geithner.

The economy is Obama’s No. 1 issue: getting it going, not restructuring one-seventh of it. His relationship with his Treasury secretary is almost as important as the public’s confidence in his choice.

The Treasury faces a Herculean task of fixing the banking system to stabilize the economy. It will consume trillions of dollars in new borrowing. It will require the trust and confidence of foreigners, who are bristling at the “Made in America” provision included in the $819 billion economic stimulus bill passed by the House of Representatives last week.

Trust but Verify

Geithner said as much when he appeared with Obama at a press conference yesterday.

“Financial systems are built on trust and confidence,” he said.

That’s true. Daschle started with the same premise and came to a different conclusion.

“This work will require a leader who can operate with the full faith of Congress and the American people and without distraction,” Daschle said in a statement announcing he was bowing out. “Right now, I am not that leader.”

Geithner has to be wondering if he is -- along with the rest of us.

President Dumbass is a little weak on the difference between 'tactical' and 'strategic', as we will see time and time and time and time again.

[verner]

Are we going to start a drinking game? Every time Gibbs mentions his kid, take a shot...

[verner]

Tapper!!!!!!

[fdcol63]

The people who elected Obama will get what they deserve from him and his policies.

Unfortunately, the rest of us will, too.

[Danube of Thought]

Appalled, I would think that a far more sympathetic and appropriate plaintiff would be the president of a financial institution that didn't get federal money while its competitors did. Why shoe-horn golden parachutes into this thing?

[Ranger]

So, once this gets passed today it goes to conference. Its my understanding that the result of the conference has to be passed by both houses of congress as well.

Is that correct?

I thinking it because I just heard that Obama is going on the road next week to "sell the stimulus." Why would he need to do that if it didn't have to be voted on again.

[Jane]

And why isn't going to Kentucky? '

And why is no one asking about the FEMA response to the crisis in Kentucky?

Gibbs is a tool - literally.

[Danube of Thought]

The plaintiff I just described would, I think, have standing to challenge the disbursement of the TARP funds (although the cat is already largely out of the bag).

A challenge to the compensation cap could be made by any institution that has received assistance and wants to continue to pay its top management competitive salaries in order to survive in the marketplace.

[Jane]

The man is going on vacation next week - holy cow. He is so not up to this job.

[clarice]

Yes, ranger--conference committee, then votes in both Houses again.

[hit and run]

At least Obama was smart enough not to test Fox (and the American public) by asking for American Idol's time slot on Tues or Wed.

What time is he going to be on? He's not messing with 24 is he?

[RichatUF]

And don't forget conference is where all the goodies are stuffed. It is going to be a disaster, but it might be a growth opportunity for the Public Integrity Division for the Justice Department.

[Appalled]

DOT:

i'm not trying to shoehorn anything -- I'm just gving my opinion on where a lawsuit is likely to come from. I don't see a bank suing on consitutionality -- it's not in their interest (if they figure they might get TARP $$ in the future) or worth their resources (if they figure on getting by without TARP.)

Most cases in the compensation area come from rich people who were fired. They are the ones with time, money, and not a whole lot to lose...

[Pal2Pal (Sara)]

They won't listen to the voters, they won't listen to any dissenting voices from "the other party," but you would think they'd listen to their own CBO:

The Congressional Budget Office has declared that this bloated trainwreck is more harmful to the nation’s future than the government ignoring the issue entirely:

President Obama’s economic recovery package will actually hurt the economy more in the long run than if he were to do nothing, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office said Wednesday.

CBO, the official scorekeepers for legislation, said the House and Senate bills will help in the short term but result in so much government debt that within a few years they would crowd out private investment, actually leading to a lower Gross Domestic Product over the next 10 years than if the government had done nothing.

[fdcol63]

Is dissent still the highest form of patriotism?

[Pal2Pal (Sara)]

Is dissent still the highest form of patriotism?

No that meme has been adjusted to account for the Dems now in power. Now the highest form of patriotism is to let yourself be financially raped by The One and to pay taxes.

[Pal2Pal (Sara)]

Oh, I think I'm about to faint. Diane Feinstein just said she is inclined to vote against the bill. Be still my heart.

[fdcol63]

Yeah .... I guess that O hand gesture that was floated during the campaign was meant to show us how big our posterior orifice would be after the rape. LOL

[narciso]

That would be blasphemy if he did that, now if he does it with House, one can always record that episode the following weekend, Ditto, if he messes with either the new episodes of Terminator, or that new show Dollhouse, on Friday

No, Jane, a tool is useful, to suggest that about Gibbs, is clearly facts not in
evidence; is he McClellan's long lost twin.
Speaking of same, behold David Frum's latest attempt at trying to blindly find an elephant in the dark, at the New Majority.
He and a lot of his commentators really belong better at the Huffington Post, with
his dear wife Danielle, of the Suetonius reference. He misread's Levin's piece, adds
some of his own confused warblings, about the AGIA pipelines falling through,basically
subtracts from the sum total of human knowledge. I posted a few times at that site, but lo and behold it won't accept
my registration information

[Extraneus]

I need some Stimulax.

[joe]

The GOP is the party of trying the same old ideas and policies over and over again. Even if their plans are a bust they pretend the results were good. it is no wonder the United States is almost a basket case since the Republicans continue to hold up progress on a wide range of issues.

[Extraneus]

basically subtracts from the sum total of human knowledge

Heh.

[Danube of Thought]

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of financial institutions who did not receive any TARP money, and who can be very certain that they never will (they're not "too big to fail").

In the compensation area, there are plenty of people who work extremely hard, have not been fired, and are very good at what they do, who get paid, say, $800,000 per year. I should think that their companies could bring the lawsuit, claiming their right to continue to pay them that amount without congressional interference.

I'm not sure that golden parachutes are even covered in the Obama proposal, although I don't think much detail has been published. In any event, a guy deprived of his parachute is far less likely to make a compelling case than is a company who simply wants to hire top talent.

Problem with all of this is, I think, that Napolitano's views (and mine) of the constitutional constraints on congressional spending are rather quaint, and very unlikely to prevail.

[clarice]

joe:"the United States is almost a basket case " and which country is your model,joe? I wish you'd share so we could learn from that example.

All this time I figured with our currency being the one most in use around the world we were, but I'm open to evidence that some other country really has cracked the code.

[MayBee]

Even if their plans are a bust they pretend the results were good.
======

Who is it pretending the last 8 years of overspending is what must be continued?
Did I miss something where spending gobs of money became some big new idea?

[Danube of Thought]

Speaking of the "same old ideas and policies," we have seen "stimulus" efforts fail time and time again, and in the FDR era they extended what would have been a deep but temporary recession into a catastrophic and long-lasting depresseion. If you want to look at a more recent example, try Japan.

I am waiting for someone to come forward with the evidence that this package will do any good at all. In the meantime, the Congressional Budget Office (run by whom?) says it will do more harm than good.

[Pal2Pal (Sara)]

John McCain today had this to say on the Senate floor:

"I'll tell you how we got here, Mr. President. We got here here by the Speaker of the House saying, "We won, so we wrote the bill." That's not what the years I've been here is called bipartisanship. So without the votes of 11 democrats and without the votes of a single Republican the bill emerged from the other body and came over here... The bill was written with negligible input from this side of the aisle.

So what are we up to now? We are up to approximately one trillion dollars... The Congressional Budget Office yesterday said that this legislation would increase employment by the end of the 4th quarter of 2010 by 1.3 million to 3.9 million jobs... I did the math. 1.2 trillion dollar bill, 3 million jobs, is $923,997 for each job.

[MayBee]

Oh, I think I'm about to faint. Diane Feinstein just said she is inclined to vote against the bill. Be still my heart.

Yay!
I wrote DiFi.
I didn't bother with Boxer.

[Sue]

It's funny how democrats inherit recessions and republicans inherit surpluses as far as the eye can see.

[RichatUF]

Its slow joe!!!

Hey, get back to me when you figure out which party has controlled Congress since 2006 and what party Obama is from.

And please, even the Times wrote up an article on the tired, old, and failed policies of government spending today. What's that-Obama and the Congress are looking to the tired, old, and failed policies of government spending (and for added measure, they are going for the tired, old, and failed policies of more regulation).

Wake me when it is over.

[sbwaters]

Anyone seen: http://mjperry.blogspot.com/

I can't seem to get it to load and miss the spot on economic charts and references.

[Pal2Pal (Sara)]

Team "O" Will Release Dirty Bomber Trainee From Gitmo

[Pal2Pal (Sara)]

I wrote DiFi.
I didn't bother with Boxer.

Ditto.

[Danube of Thought]

Byron York says three Republicans have cut a deal. LUN

Sue, Bill Clinton inherited an economy that had grown at a rate of 4% in the year before he took office. (That was the year he and Al Gore spent describing it as the "worst economy in fifty years"). And the "surpluses" he bequeathed to Bush were by no means "as far as the eye can see"; future deficits were already projected before he left office.

And what did Ronald Reagan inherit from Jimmy Carter?

[Rich Berger]

Now if we could just find the right rapper -"I want my stimulus, you gotta gimme this".

[Danube of Thought]

For the record, here are the quarterly GDP growth rates for 1992, the final year of the Bush 41 presidency:

1st Qtr 4.2079
2nd Qtr 3·9133
3rd Qtr 3.9825
4th Qtr 4.4807

[narciso]

No, Joe, with the exception of the TARP, which is eerily too close to the Hoover era RFC, Smoot Hawley,and 'wage and price controls' we generally apply policies that work. Tax cuts have worked in 1921, 1961, 1981 and 2001, & 2003, the McKinley tariff, (which had not a little to do with the turmoil in Cuba, later in the decade)the Fordney McCumber tariff, and of course, Smoot Hawley were increasingly bad ideas.
A infrastructure heavy, stimulus like the one considered now for the US, was
disastrous for the similarly bubble driven
crippled Japanese economy. And they didn't have the burden who should have if not a cheerleader like the previous occupant, maybe a member of the glee club,showing
a positive attitude.Christina Moran, his own CEA has said as much, with regards to many of the measures he's considering. This is in the midrange of recessions from the figures I see, but too much pessimism or
an improper stimulus, and we could drop into a protracted one, very far, very fast

[verner]

I did the math. 1.2 trillion dollar bill, 3 million jobs, is $923,997 for each job.

Well, thank goodness somebody is doing the math...

Geez, just how stupid do they thing we are!!!!

That one sentence is all it takes to call the democrat socialists on their shyte.

[jimmyk]

Assuming no one is forced to take TARP money (the way some like Wells Fargo were), I'm not sure I see how they have a case. It's a useful lesson of what happens once you take Federal handouts. You are no longer a free agent.

[Sue]

DoT,

I was being sarcastic. After listening to Gibbs's presser.

[Rick Ballard]

SBW,

Carpe Diem loads fine for me. His top piece on Paterson's attempt to defenestrate NY theater (as outlined by a NYT editorial) is pretty amusing. How much of the Democrat NewD irection Stimulus was directed at the "arts"? It looks like Paterson is going to nip the 'longer than four hour' problem in the bud.

[Pal2Pal (Sara)]

The democrats have three skills as far as I can see. They get us into wars, they tank the economy, and they convince the country the other side is responsible.

[Rich Berger]

John's math is off a bit - that's $400K per job, just under Obama's $500K cap (whew).

[Pal2Pal (Sara)]

NY Madam: Expensed $2000 an hour charges to NY banks and investment firms for their client's use of her service.

[PeterUK]

Rich Berger,
Somebody has already got there.

Stimulus lyrics by Animit

"Take these diagonal twisted words
And scrape them off the ceiling floor
Your minds have capabilities of absorbing so much more
So why would you throw that away
And simplify your thoughts
Keep your ideas the same
And forfeit all you got".

They seem quite apposite

[DrJ]

I did the math. 1.2 trillion dollar bill, 3 million jobs, is $923,997 for each job.

Well, my calculator says that it is $400K per job, but what do I know. Still a lot of money.

[Danube of Thought]

Sorry, Sue--I wasn't watching Gibbs (I can't).

JimmyK, the fact that they aren't forced to take it doesn't bear on the issue of unconstitutional conditions. Even if the government doesn't have to offer it, and even if the recipient doesn't have to take it, it can't be offered with an unconsitutional condition. The congress can't say, "we'll give you this money if you give up your right to vote." Arguably, agreeing to some specific salary level is an unconstitutional impairment of contract rights. (Napolitano thinks so; I'm not so sure.)

[Pal2Pal (Sara)]

They have been telling me on the news all morning that the stock market is up because Wall Street loves this stimulus bill and thinks it will pass. I don't get this at all. To my mind, the market should be up because the bill is stalled and may not pass.

[Topsecretk9]

Roll call saying Voinovich pulled out of the negotiations.

[Sue]

I wonder how long it will be before reporters start missing the Bush administration? The Obama administration runs late to every event.

[Sue]

Maybe McCain was using interest in his calculations.

[RichatUF]

Re: the "porkulus/jobs creation" projection

McCain used the low end figure for the 900K+ figure.

[clarice]

"Roll call saying Voinovich pulled out of the negotiations" Oh dear, did someone do a ohn Bolton--raise his voice, put his hands on his hips?

Can't have that.

[Sue]

DoT,

No problem. Gibbs said the recession began in 2007. I wanted a reporter to ask him wasn't that about the same time democrats became the majority in both houses of congress? Didn't happen.

[Pal2Pal (Sara)]

Well, my calculator says that it is $400K per job, but what do I know. Still a lot of money.

Well either way, it is a lot of money per job. I'd take it and use it to stimulate the economy by buying a house and new furniture and lots of other things that would put people back to work.

Instead I don't see anything in this bill that will provide stimulus to my family. All it will do is cost us more in taxes, which are already nearly impossible to cover when on a fixed income.

[Captain Hate]

Since Voinovich's crook brother who used to skim earmarks is dead, Ohio's RINO probably doesn't have any reason to support a pork souffle.

[DrJ]

I don't see anything in this bill that will provide stimulus to my family.

That's not true for me, but I'll grant that I'm a special case. The increases to NIH and NSF will help me a lot. I'm still against the bill, and would like to see the non-stimulus stuff voted on separately. Let it stand or sink on its own merits.

[clarice]

If you use Nancy's figure of 500 million jobs lost every month, though the package is a true bargain.

[Rick Ballard]

DrJ,

Cost it over 30 years at 4% simple (no amortization on bonds). That's how the Democrats come up with their umpteen gazillion trillion numbers and on that basis it comes to $880,000 per job. If the NewD irection Stimulus runs interest rates up 1% (a low estimate), then the cost per job will jump to $1,000,000.

Tell me that isn't stimulating. (Ignore the fact that it's nausea being stimulated.) We need to look at the NDS in the same way one would look at an STD. From a considerable distance.

[jimmyk]

$923,997

Well, you obviously have forgotten your Krugmanomics. You see, those jobs would never have been created but for the stimulus, so that figure pays for a permanent job. Amortize it over 30 years, and it's only like $20k/year! Gosh it's fun to just make stuff up.

[Pal2Pal (Sara)]

Romney’s Q and A with TIME

[DrJ]

Rick, that makes sense. Hello inflation! Even without interest it is still an astronomical number.

[Pal2Pal (Sara)]

68,000 have signed the No Stimulus petition so far. Have you?

[Danube of Thought]

Gibbs was wrong. Here are the quarterly figures for 2007 and the first three quarters of 2008:

2007 01 0.0493
2007 02 4·7888
2007 03 4.7574
2007 04 -0·1719
2008 01 0.8737
2008 02 2·8253
2008 03 -0.5106

A recession is defined as two consecutive quarters of negative growth. The current recession began with the 3rd quarter of 2008.

[Bill in AZ]

I did the math. 1.2 trillion dollar bill, 3 million jobs, is $923,997 for each job.

Ya'll are forgetting there are still 497,000,000 jobs to be lost yet this month. That's $2400 per job - now the porkulus bill is starting to make sense.

[MayBee]

Is anybody watching Nora O'Donnell on MSNBC interview Thune.
She is being so snotty.

[MayBee]

The group that declares recessions declared the recession began Dec 2007.

[Sue]

The Corner is reporting that the market is up because Obama is on the verge of suspending mark-to-market rules.

Rick? Rich? A good thing?

[PaulL]

The word going around now is that Mark to Market is being revised on Monday. That was a big problem.

[glenda]

Feinstein wants to be Governor of Calee-forn-ee-aaa! She is starting her campaign, it seems, today. If Specter is one of the"3" who will vote yes, he is a goner, or; possibly, Obama just lied to him and told him he is on his "short list" for the SC. That is what Arlen has always wanted. I just hope he doesn't get too hurt when he realizes that he has been had. HEH
I can't get any of my democrat friends to admit they voted for Obama and I see where the networks are starting to balk at Obama's crowd the airways agenda. And, this a.m. he used the teleprompter again, to introduce HIS $ advisors, who seemed , all, embarrassed for him.
DOT-why don't you run for Governor? I'll move there and vote for you!

[glenda]

Maybee...the loser press is like a child who had their candy taken away! Their One! Is. A. Big. Fat. 0. ..and they will not be able to cover-up for him anymore--and it's just week 3!

[jimmyk]

DoT,
The Feds have already established that they can interfere with private contracts (eg the minimum wage). All they have to do is say the magic words "interstate commerce." In fact, Clinton's $1M exec pay cap is another case. So if they can do that without a quid pro quo, I don't see how they can't in this case. (Of course, I'd prefer they not be able to do either.

[Barney Frank]

Completely OT, but we had our final arguments in our property lawsuit today and the judge ruled from the bench.
It was stupefyingly wonderful. He totally and completely annihilated them. Didn't even toss them the tiniest bone of any sort.
My dear, idiot, brother was allowed to make a final argument himself because of a technicality. It was a rambling, retarded screed wherein he talked about how he and I had engaged in self dealing and commingling of funds years ago, blah, blah, blah, which is a total lie but presently serves his purposes, he thought.
Eventually the judge interrupted him and told him 90% of what he was saying had no evidence to support it and since he was now a self confessed criminal why should he listen to any of it anyway. Had to bite my lip to keep from laughing out loud.
It's a wonderful life.
God is good.

[glenda]

All..The doctor put me back on Prednisone yesterday and it has made me very antsy. I will try to stop posting so much!

[Topsecretk9]

Comment at Ace's:

I was just up on the Hill for another reason, and Specter is going to be the whore. Nobod knows what Snowe is doing. My suspicion is that she will follow Collins' lead.

As long as the bill is going to pass, Reid will lose 3-4 Dems. Feinstein is the real wild card, between Obama, Reid, and Pelosi, she doesn't see anyone capable of getting anything done. If Obama and Pelosi are not careful she could put together a strong team, remember in addition to the Blue Dogs in the House - there are a lot of CA(D) congresscritters, who do not want to be pawns in a Pelosi - Feinstein fight, but will break to Feinstein.

Posted by: Jean at February 06, 2009 03:49 PM (L64A6)

Seriously people - spam the crap out of Sepcter's office...

here's his email contact page:

http://tinyurl.com/2xshvp

(and someone please tell me why he needs 8 offices? Really?)

Office Locations
Home

Washington DC
Main: 202-224-4254
Fax: 202-228-1229

Lehigh Valley
Main: 610-434-1444
Fax: 610-434-1844

Erie
Main: 814-453-3010
Fax: 814-455-9925

Harrisburg
Main: 717-782-3951
Fax: 717-782-4920

Philadelphia
Main: 215-597-7200
Fax: 215-597-0406

Pittsburgh
Main: 412-644-3400
Fax: 412-644-4871

Scranton
Main: 570-346-2006
Fax: 570-346-8499

Wilkes-Barre
Main: 570-826-6265
Fax: 570-826-6266

[Pal2Pal (Sara)]

Biden: There's 30 Percent Chance We'll Be Wrong

[glasater]

TM and other JOM readers--If you have the time to watch one video in the next day or so--I'm pleading that you watch this exchange between:

Charlie Gasparino & Thomas H. Patrick--former CFO of Merrill Lynch.