Run The Solar Plant At Night When Its Cool

I have one word for you - molten salt.

I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE THINKING:  Yes, melting salt does not increase the total amount of sunshine being harnessed, it simply shifts the time it is used.  That makes these plants a bit more useful for providing base load, but they also make the rest of the investment more economical:

All told, that means thermal energy storage at Andasol 1 or power plants like it costs roughly $50 per kilowatt-hour to install, according to NREL's Glatzmaier. But it doesn't add much to the cost of the resulting electricity because it allows the turbines to be generating for longer periods and those costs can be spread out over more hours of electricity production.

Comments

[Pofarmer]

Neukular.

[Pofarmer]

And Arizona Public Service Co. (APS) has contracted with Abengoa Solar to build a 280-megawatt solar thermal power plant—dubbed Solana or "sunny place"—70 miles (110 kilometers) southwest of Phoenix on nearly 2,000 acres (800 hectares) of land.

I'm sure there aren't any 5 legged tree Newts or anything already living there. Yeah, the enviro's won't mind.

[Pofarmer]

And, what happens when you have all these superheated tubes of stuff running around----and it rains?

[Charlie (Colorado)]

And, what happens when you have all these superheated tubes of stuff running around----and it rains?

Steam.

[David Pecchia]

"But it doesn't add much to the cost of the resulting electricity because it allows the turbines to be generating for longer periods and those costs can be spread out over more hours of electricity production."

This is because the capital cost of the storage system allows for a smaller, less expensive turbine. The savings doesn't come from running the thing more hours, though you have to do this too. I would think that engineers would want to take into account this as well as what the hourly demand curve looks like. A properly designed storage system could allow 24/7 production but what is the real need for juice at say, 3:00AM?

[MikeS]

Makes sense to add night time capability if you have a shortage of it. I like this configuration

I could imagine these installed where we presently have transmission lines.

I like photovoltaics but they are virtually all manufactured out of the country.

That said I don't believe any plan that excludes nuclear, will satisfy our future needs.

[Pofarmer]

I especially liked the part about how this will be cost competitive if they tax the crap out of all the alternatives.

Ha, Charlie, yes, I know, steam. Was thiking there would be a rather large, unplanned energy transfer there. However, I guess these things are in the desert so-----

[jwest]

It frightens me every time TM writes about “alternative power” like it actually works.

If you would like a great thought exercise, think of how the country would be changed if we built 800 identical nuke plants as a stimulus project. Imagine the growth and prosperity that would flow from practically free unlimited power.

[Pofarmer]

A properly designed storage system could allow 24/7 production but what is the real need for juice at say, 3:00AM?

HOLY COW!!!! That sounds just like a coal or nuclear baseload system, with NG peaking for backup, but at TWO OR THREE TIMES THE COST. BRILLIANT.

[Pofarmer]

think of how the country would be changed if we built 800 identical nuke plants as a stimulus project

As long as it's all built with minority labor, you might as well pitch it to somebody.

[Old Lurker]

"Ha, Charlie, yes, I know, steam."

But, but...water vapor is the #1 greenhouse gas, Kim taught us.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Po, it wouldn't be all that large. Molten table salt has roughly the same heat capacity of water, and has to be above 800°C to melt. You can pretty well be certain that the plumbing would be insulated, since you only want to lose heat at the boiler anyway, but even if it weren't, you'd have to boil something like a gallon of water to coola tablespoon of salt from 900° to 800°.

Or think about what happens when it rains on your car radiator; it steams but it doesn't make a whole helluva lot of a difference to the car.

If you could arrange to dump a whole lot of water into the storage tank and confine it, you could get some excitement, but rain isn't going to do much.

[clarice]

jwest--a man after my own heart.

[Pofarmer]

Well, I'm assuming that there's open piping in the collectors where it's heating the salt. You're not going to be heating it through insulation. I just thought A sudden thunderstorm with 400+ degree pipes would be pretty spectacular.

[mel]

Po-

That's one way to "see" lots of "free" energy.

Boom.

[Rick Ballard]

I'm just happy that they have chosen a non-corrosive material to run through the pipes. It will help keep the leaks to a minimum and assure low maintenance costs.

[PeterUK]

Doesn't matter anyway they are planning to kill you all off, or have you living in yurts and teepees.

[Ignatz Ratzkywatzky]

It frightens me every time TM writes about “alternative power” like it actually works.

We tried alternative power in California a few years back. Worked great.
Sometimes we had power and, alternatively, sometimes we didn't. It was a great energy conservation plan though, to turn power off to half the state at a time.

[clarice]

BTW folks that pic is an oldie of PUK on tour in I think Australia..

[Matt]

Mr. Goldberg, paging Mr. Rube Goldberg to the engineering department......

[MikeS]

...turn power off to half the state at a time.

Yep. That was all part of that insane, liberal energy regulation scheme that they call de-regulation. Should have been called duh?-regulation.

[PeterUK]

Well,if that doesn't kill them off nothing will.

[clarice]

Your picture or the molten salt, PUK? Smooochwa

[PeterUK]

Obama Science Advisor he's the man who is trying to kill you off.Sheesh they had a uniform for his type in Germany.

[PeterUK]

Either Clarice.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Po, this idea has been tried before, in smaller scale, with some success, and it's not like industrial processes at those temperatures are new -- steel mills, chemical plants, and so forth. When's the last time you heard of a steel plant being damaged by rain falling on the hot stuff?

I know you like things that blow up and break catastrophically, but the physics just ain't there. Sorry.

[Pofarmer]

Uhm, Charlie, lighten up a little.

You've got miles of reflectors and pipes and all of sudden here come's your rain shower, and, I don't think that's gonna be conducive to energy generation, that's all I'm sayin.

Oh, Car radiators aren't running at anywhere close to 800 degrees.

Miles of corrosive liquid at superheated temps running through miles of pipes, to do something that we can already do very economically.

Any way you look at it, it's stupid.

[bad]

PUK, you look like even more fun than I've fantasized....

[Pagar]

If you haven't read the link PUK put up at 5:26 PM.,You're missing the story of the man could be a replacement for Hitler.

[Rick Ballard]

"Any way you look at it, it's stupid."

Try it without any regard to practicality or long term maintenance cost. Just focus on the blue sky burble used to suck the bucks out "alternative renewable green energy" investors. It's not stupid at all from that viewpoint. Billions can be stolen raised from the "socially conscious" dolts investors with the right pitch.

[bgates]

I know you like things that blow up and break catastrophically

Why do you have this compulsion to be an asshole, Charlie?

[Pofarmer]

I think I've got the next big green innovation. We'll put hot rocks under the covers with us to keep us warm all night. The heat transfer is near 100%. Maybe it will keep us warm after the electricity quits in the middle of the night.

[Ken]

Get a grip people! The system will work. Nothing will blow up or leak. Rain won't hurt it. And miles of pipe are not involved.

The real problems are 100% costs and a few annoyances from the inevitable NIMBY faction.

Unfortunately costs are nearly impossible to determine. No one putting up the installations will do it with their own money so long as they can get the money from taxpayers or utility customers.

And they can.

But the government also doesn't want to reveal the true costs. People might notice they are very high. So multiple sources of funding must be used.

You try to get some from utility customers, some more directly from the state legislature, some more from the local county because you are claiming to create jobs.

The DOE both federal and state tosses in some funds too. And where are the parts being made? Shouldn't Indiana give you a subsidy for parts made in Indiana even if the solar installation itself will be in Arizona?

There is no limit to the creativity. The state university will go to the legislature for special funding to aid solar research. Then their Professors get consulting fees for advising the firm building the facility. They will also swear the facility is vital to the 21st century.

With some imagination you can prove the Defense Department will benefit and pull some money from their budget. And what about those gasoline taxes for highways? Certainly transportation will benefit in some way, so the DOT provides some help too.

And your Congressman and Senators can get an earmark in the general budget for millions.

When all is said and done the plant will run. Many people will have made a great deal of money. And the cost will never be known for an audit would take decades.

[bad]

Hahaha Po, as a child I had Lux dishsoap bottles full of hot water to warm up my bed. Grandmother said heated rocks would stay warm longer.

[Rick Ballard]

Pofarmer,

That's a great idea. I've been thinking about hydro myself. What if you could put some sort of paddle thingy in running water that would turn an axle? As long as the water ran the axle would turn and you could hook all sorts of gadgets it to it. I think it has real possibilities - especially if only natural materials were used in construction. Sometimes these things just come to me out of the blue.

[bgates]

What if you could put some sort of paddle thingy in running water that would turn an axle?
No good. Think of the sea kittens. River kittens. Whatever.

[Porchlight]

Rick, if we then could harness the sun somehow to superheat the water it would turn into steam...it might even be able to power an engine. Yes, this definitely has possibilities.

[Rick Ballard]

bgates,

Good point. How 'bout if we put up warning signs and turned off the paddle thingies at night?

[PeterUK]

Pagar,
I see him more of an Adolf Eichmann or a Reinhard Heydrich,perhaps even a junior Pol Pot.For a Hitler,you need an orator with charisma.

[bad]

Can sea kittens read? I hear they attended Chicago public schools....

[PeterUK]

"Good point. How 'bout if we put up warning signs and turned off the paddle thingies at night?"

First you need a literacy course for sea kittens.

[Pofarmer]

Ya know, I bet we could get ships to run without any power either. I'm envisioning these huge sheets that we could use to harness the power of the wind. We could use hemp all the way through!!!!

[Pofarmer]

Laying all jokes aside though, I think mini hydro has some real possibilies. Power available 24/7, you just need a large source of water with sufficient head. It's basically a 3 phase motor hooked to an impeller. If the greens get all their gobeldy gook passed, it may actually have some possibilities.

[bgates]

So long as we're discussing alternative energy proposals, I'd like to renew my call for a three-step, solar/biofuel/geothermal process:

1) sunlight reaches the earth
2) causing plant growth
3) this is the crucial part - the plants die and are compressed under layers of more growing and dying plants; over time, the earth's heat and pressure converts the organic material into a set of stable, easily transportable compounds which can be burned to release energy

Importantly, the burning in stage 3 cannot release any more carbon into the atmosphere than had been sequestered from the air and soil in step 2. Thus the whole process, from beginning to end, is carbon-neutral.

[bad]

bgates, did you just invent ----- OIL????

[kim]

So far as I know, Pofarmer, the only storage technology that is presently cost effective, is what you have described, pumping water back into the pool behind a hydroelectric dam. This is despite efficiency losses in the pumping back up and in the taking back down. Nonetheless, no other storage technology comes close. I don't mind being corrected; my information might be dated.
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[kim]

And perhaps it's only cost effective because it is a usable source of peak demand electricity. Let the water back down through the turbines on a hot afternoon day. These other schemes are harebrained and only being pursued because the primitive state of storage technology is one thing that prevents more widespread use of solar and wind energy, because they are unreliable for peak demand situations, and not so great for baseload either. The fact is, it is hard to store energy. If you don't use it, you lose it steadily.
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[Soylent Red]

If only we had substances like that bgates, say under Pennsylvania or coastal Alaska.

You're such a dreamer.

[bgates]

Bad, oil is awful. My plan is recycling plants. It's like super-composting. Plus it involves lots of high-paying, shovel-ready, blue-collar jobs. Most of the work can be done outside, so the workers can get back in touch with nature in some really beautiful environments.

Oil. As if.

[bad]

Sorry, I misunderstood, bgates. Are you talking about "earth ambrosia"?

[Pofarmer]

Kim, you're right on with the hydro. The thing is, it's better to run a coal plant full capacity, or at least at even capacity all the time, as they don't spool up or down real well. So, at night when demand is down, you take electricity that would otherwise be wasted as heat, and use it to pump water up into a storage facility. During the day you run the water back down. There are more of those types of facilities than you would realize.

[Pofarmer]

Oh, yeah, and under BHO's policies, regenerative hydro doesn't count as "green", of course.

[mel]

bad-

Is that the same stuff as "Oracle Juice"?

[mel]

Po-

You could even stuff on the end of the coal stack a magnetohydrodynamic coil and boost your efficiency up towards 50%, but nah, that might cost somebody their dissertation funding.

Not that I'm bitter.

[mel]

much.

[mel]

I'm in a really good mood tonight, but I have to hit the rack.

I "splained" myself on the leverage thread, sorta. Very. Big. Day.

[kim]

It always amazes me, Pofarmer, to talk to a greenie, to find that they don't know what the terms 'baseload' and 'peak demand' mean. I mean, they are just out to lunch. Storage technology is not easy. The ugly thing about wind is that it's not useful for baseload or peak demand. So what's it good for? Driving utility load managers nuts, that's what for.
================================

[kim]

I mean, it doesn't contribute reliably, except to make generation and load management unpredictable. Even if it were economic solely on the energy basis, it would be disruptive to a utility attempting to deliver electricity.

It's whack, that's what. And wait until someone sues for the damages caused by microclimate change from the wind turbines. The cure for the damages? How about the value of the energy taken out of the wind.

Bah! Pah! Faugh! Tchah!

H/t Oofy Prosser.
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[Pofarmer]

There are more likely to be suits from people pissed off that their electronics got fried from the voltage spikes and brownouts as wind generated power comes and goes.

[kim]

A great analogy is with sailing ships. Why, with 'free fuel', don't sailing ships still have a competitive advantage over those ships which need to run on expensive fuel? Well, it's the unreliability of the power, that's why, and it applies to these stupid wind farms, too.

The only reason they fly is mandates and subsidies. A perverted market.
======================================

[kim]

That's brings up a thought. Were the administration to start mandating and subsidizing sailing ships everyone would see the absurdity of it. Well, these wind farms are just as absurd. One of the fables that has pushed such schemes is the 'free lunch' idea, that wind power is green, alternative, and 'sustainable'. Well, the wind, the water and the sun are the planet's natural climate regulating mechanisms and once we start deriving significant amounts of energy from these so-called 'sustainable' sources, then the climate will inevitably be changed in unpredictable fashion. It's whack. But are you surprised that the left comes up with whack ideas? They don't think we are human anymore, either.
==================================

[Jim Miller]

Kim - Compressed air is used for storage in some places, too. You pump it underground when you have a surplus and then let it out when you need it.

The local geology has to be right to use such systems, obviously.

[Jim Miller]

Kim - Compressed air is used in some places for energy storage, too. You pump the air into the ground when you have a surplus, and then let it out when you need it.

The local geology has to be right for such systems to work.

[kim]

All these schemes to store energy have efficiency losses, but are still useful because peak load energy is so costly. To have 'alternative' energy touted by people who have no idea of the limitations of storage technology just drives me around the bend. It's whack.

And thanks, I didn't know about the compressed air bit. Peak demand is a big and expensive problem.
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[jwest]

Profarmer,

Mini-hydro is definitely the best choice, but the sites are few and far between.

Back in the late ‘80s, I bought a former Ford “cottage industry” plant that was built under a program Henry started to feed component parts into his factories. It was a two floor, 8000 sq.ft. building with a 3 acre mill pond, 14 ft. wide dam, 10 ft. of head, 150 KW(constant) generator and 1 ft. thick end grain maple wood floors.

The generator was in perfect shape, the turbine was operational but hadn’t been used in 20 years, and the only real work it needed was replacing a rack mechanism on the intake that carried the debris grating.

I purchased the plant to convert it to my house, as it was on the edge of residential area, was all brick and architecturally a handsome building. The trouble was that the building had been zoned as industrial and no permits for occupancy could be made with that designation. When I tried to change the zoning, the state Department of Natural Resources blocked it because a private dam of that size was not allowed in a residential area. If I wanted to license the dam so that it would be allowed, the costs of surveys, inspections and certifications would be overwhelming.

After three years of wrangling, I sold the property to a non-profit. Looking back, I should have just proceeded with my original plans and fought the fight afterwards. Even if I left the building empty, selling the excess power would have paid for the building a number of times over by now.

If I coulda, woulda, shoulda.

[Pofarmer]

If I wanted to license the dam so that it would be allowed, the costs of surveys, inspections and certifications would be overwhelming.

The govt was protecting you, see?

That would be considered a piddling little damn around here. You don't even need any engineering assitance untill you get over 10 acres and 10-1 drainage/surface ratio.

That building sounds damn cool.

[Matt]

that building sounds like it should be a national historic site.

Chiming in on solar, it's the same thing as wind. Great to provide relief during peaks, but otherwise a white elephant in most ways. All of those green jobs Oblunder is touting will be around for @ 3-4 years each and then gone.

The factories to build the cells and modules are going up now and will be busy for 4-5 years before demand drops.The production process requires mainly minimum wage labor, except for the installation side. Those guys will be the busiest for the longest, but then the solar sector will only require minimal maintenance for the next 30-40 years. Same with wind. Once its in, its done.

[Pofarmer]

but then the solar sector will only require minimal maintenance for the next 30-40 years

Yeah, actually not. Most Solar installations are known for being pretty maintenance intensive.

Great to provide relief during peaks, but otherwise a white elephant in most ways.

Well, except for the part where you can't gaurantee it to generate when you need it.