A Timeline Problem With The 'Torture Memos' And The Library Tower Plot

Timothy Noah of Slate does a good job of catching an interesting detail and smiting his opponents, but his objections can be answered.  Here we go, starting with an excerpt from Marc Thiessen's WaPo column, which itself drew heavily on the May 30 2005 OLC memo:

Specifically, interrogation with enhanced techniques "led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the 'Second Wave,' 'to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into' a building in Los Angeles." KSM later acknowledged before a military commission at Guantanamo Bay that the target was the Library Tower, the tallest building on the West Coast. The memo explains that "information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discovery of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member Jemmah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the 'Second Wave.' " In other words, without enhanced interrogations, there could be a hole in the ground in Los Angeles to match the one in New York.

And Mr. Noah plays his ace:

What clinches the falsity of Thiessen's claim, however (and that of the memo he cites, and that of an unnamed Central Intelligence Agency spokesman who today seconded Thessen's argument), is chronology. In a White House press briefing, Bush's counterterrorism chief, Frances Fragos Townsend, told reporters that the cell leader was arrested in February 2002, and "at that point, the other members of the cell" (later arrested) "believed that the West Coast plot has been canceled, was not going forward" [italics mine]. A subsequent fact sheet released by the Bush White House states, "In 2002, we broke up a plot by KSM to hijack an airplane and fly it into the tallest building on the West Coast."  These two statements make clear that however far the plot to attack the Library Tower ever got—an unnamed senior FBI official would later tell the Los Angeles Times that Bush's characterization of it as a "disrupted plot" was "ludicrous"—that plot was foiled in 2002. But Sheikh Mohammed wasn't captured until March 2003.

Well, I suppose it is possible that the underlying CIA memo is false - it is described in the May 30 memo as the being authored by [redacted] at DCI and is titled "Re: Effectiveness of the CIA Counterintelligence Interrogation Techniques", March 2, 2005.  Maybe we are being subjected to a bit of bureaucratic chicanery in which the CIA lies to the DoJ in order to protect its own turf and its own people - a bit of the old CYA at the CIA, if you will.

But it seems like a rather bold and unnecessary lie - the author did point to other less ambiguous successes, such as intel from Khalid Sheik Mohammed that led to the arrest of Hambali of the Jemaah Islamiyah, the group responsible for the Bali bombings and others, and Admiral Blair is the latest to admit that the enhanced interrogation program scored some successes.  Trying to sneak the old "We busted him in 2003, thereby disrupting a plot in 2002" time-travel scam past the DoJ might have been risky if the secret eventually got out, as it did a year later when Bush declassified some details of the incident.

So let's imagine for a moment that the CIA document is the truth.  Do we have to stretch any other facts very far to accommodate that?  Not really.  What Ms. Townsend said (link provided by Mr. Noah) in briefing the incident was that

The cell leader was arrested in February of 2002, and as we begin -- at that point, the other members of the cell believed that the West Coast plot has been canceled, was not going forward.

Let's review basic operational security - if KSM had a back-up team, would these four know about it?  Or, if KSM put together a new team after these four were busted, would they know it?  Why would they?

And why would KSM give up on crashing a plane into Los Angeles?  He was involved in the 1995 plan to blow up twelve airplanes over the Pacific; he wanted to attack the West Coast on 9/11; and he did help launch the scheme disrupted here.  Why would he lose interest in attacking the West Coast after that setback in 2002?

The May 30 2005 memo, citing the 'Effectiveness' memo, says that Hambali led a 17 member "Garuba cell" (part of the Jemaah Islamiyah) tasked with implementing the Second Wave attacks.  Seventeen is more than four, from which I infer that maybe Hambali went to a B-team after the arrests of the initial cell which began in 2002.

I don't know why that is so implausible.  As to why Bush said nothing about yet another plot, perhaps he didn't want to tip our hand as to how much had been learned from KSM.

In any case I am sure Mr. Noah will join the calls for President Obama to end the politicization of the intelligence and release the memos which provide the other half of the debate.  The OLC memos tell us what we did; what has not been released are the memos telling us why we did it.  And if the CIA was lying to the DoJ, let's find out.

BONUS GUESS:  If the 'Effectiveness' memo and its counterparts concluded that the enhanced interrogation techniques were valueless, I think Obama would have released them, said "I told you so", and lauded the CIA for honestly confronting its past mistakes.  A win-win!

Yet the memos remain hidden away and all we get our snippets from Admiral Blair telling us that, although he thinks it was wrong, "“High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa’ida organization that was attacking this country.”

With that background it's going to be hard to make a convincing case that the program was valueless.

Comments

[clarice]

TM:"BONUS GUESS: If the 'Effectiveness' memo and its counterparts concluded that the enhanced interrogation tchniques were valueless, I think Obama would have released them, said "I told you so", and lauded the CIA for honestly confronting its past mistakes. A win-win!"
So young and yet so jaded. *sigh*

[centralcal]

Just got back from taking the office mail to the mail drop; heard Ollie North on Hannity extremely upset that the full memo's were released showing everything - official formatting, fonts used, etc.etc. rather than the usual extractions and excerpts.

He said they will make their way around the world with additions liberally inserted and other false documents created all officially matching this one.

[Ignatz]

I'll repost my comment from the other thread from AmSpecBlog regarding Tim Noah's timeline, with a correction from TNR to Slate in the first sentence.

In response to TNR's Slate's story it appears the first "Second Wave" was broken up in 2002. Then KSM, still entertaining the idea handed it off to this guy Hambali who got nabbed along with his posse before they could get started, thanks to enhanced interrogation of KSM.
Here's a link to a short bit on it at the American Spectator.

[centralcal]

Sometimes I have dark thoughts, so forgive me. But I have wondered if some who work in intelligence who might be slightly unbalanced, and lord knows we have all discussed of few of those whacko ex-intelligence sorts here, get to feeling too threatened or paranoid, then Obama should be really, really careful.

It really isn't "right-wingers" this administration should fear, but the truly unbalanced sorts that permeate their ranks.

[Jonathan]

The OLC memos do tell "why we did it": "you have informed us that," etc. etc. - as does the Senate report: to gin up false confessions (what torture is for) about Saddam and Al Qaeda.

[kate]

Up next in the "The Prevent Another 9/11 Memos" drama--media polling which shows the American people overwhelmingly want prosecutions of the evil Bush officials. The fact that they haven't been released yet shows that they may have trouble getting the percentages they want and are busy now tweaking the questions and adjusting the samples.

Polling, another weapon in the arsenal of the left and their PR firm the American media.

[Danube of Thought]

"to gin up false confessions (what torture is for) about Saddam and Al Qaeda."

Not a single terrorist was subject to enhanced interrogation for the purpose of obatining confessions. Unlike law enforcement interrogations, these were conducted for the purpose of obtaining intelligence.

Imagine yourself a CIA interrogator in 2002. Would you really question a captured terrorist without making an effort to determine whether Saddam Hussein had supported him? Can you imagine anyone in his right mind failing to do so?

[RichatUF]

Sorry to go ot, but I'm feeling like spreading the good news. Most probably have seen it, but I got misty-eyed reading that the NYT is down to its last $34 million.

[Cecil Turner]

The OLC memos do tell "why we did it": "you have informed us that," etc. etc. - as does the Senate report: to gin up false confessions (what torture is for) about Saddam and Al Qaeda.

Why no link? Oh, because all you've got is this weak tea (from the usual: unnamed "senior intelligence official"):

"The main one is that everyone was worried about some kind of follow-up attack (after 9/11). But for most of 2002 and into 2003, Cheney and Rumsfeld, especially, were also demanding proof of the links between al Qaida and Iraq that (former Iraqi exile leader Ahmed) Chalabi and others had told them were there." [emphasis added]

And then we find who's doing the conference calling:

Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman Carl Levin, D-Mich., called Burney's statement "very significant."

Which tells you all you need to know about the source. More here, and just as convincing.

[Pat Curley]

Noah also blows at least one detail; he claims that the Flight 93 passengers crashed the plane, while in actuality the hijackers crashed the plane in response to the efforts by the passengers to take back control of the aircraft.

[verner]

With that background it's going to be hard to make a convincing case that the program was valueless.

They wern't TM.

At the VERY LEAST, WBding resulted in the capture of KSM, and thru him, Hambali, the mastermind of the Bali bombings.

Geez, just that info alone should be enough for anyone with half a brain.

Noah is just engaging in more goal post moving.

And Cheney is sitting back with his rope, ready to pull the dope in.

Noah has shown himself to be a very sloppy bush hating partisan putz with this piece.

[Extraneus]

So much brain power wasted on such a stupid subject. Just like the surveillance b.s. Wouldn't it make more sense, and save a hell of a lot of time, to just let Cheney and Biden debate the matter in prime time? Or maybe Hillary could stand in for Biden if he couldn't make it.

We could take a nation-wide poll afterward and then consider the matter settled. Whichever side polls better, that should be the policy going forward. I think most people would support that.

[Cecil Turner]

Well, I suppose it is possible that the underlying CIA memo is false . . .

Why? The relevant portion is quoted:

"information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discovery of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member Jemmah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the 'Second Wave.' "

Hambali was arrested in Feb 2004, so there's no timeline problem there.

Moreover, Noah's characterization of the FBI quote is dubious at best:

an unnamed senior FBI official would later tell the Los Angeles Times that Bush's characterization of it as a "disrupted plot" was "ludicrous"—that plot was foiled in 2002.

That makes it look like he's saying the plot was already foiled . . . but that's not what he said at all . . . his objection is to calling it a disrupted plot (presumably because it was foiled before it was even a real plan):

Those men were soon captured, however, and the plot never progressed past the planning stages, according to several counter-terrorism officials.

“To take that and make it into a disrupted plot is just ludicrous,” said one senior FBI official, who spoke on condition of anonymity in accordance with departmental guidelines. [emphasis added]

With that as background, subsequent information from KSM that enabled Hambali's arrest may not be creditable as a "foiled plot" either . . . but surely it's a "good thing"™.

[Bill in AZ]

Sorry to go ot, but I'm feeling like spreading the good news. Most probably have seen it, but I got misty-eyed reading that the NYT is down to its last $34 million.

Thanks RichatUF - Somehow I missed that bit of goods news in all the bad news this week. Why, that's the best news I've seen since Prince Charles announced that due to climate change we have 100 months left - which takes us safely beyond the end of the Mayan calendar. Things are looking up.

[verner]

With the capture of KSM and Halambi, every plot they were involved in was foiled. DUH

Don't get involved in the left's tangled attempt to trip up the truth.

Let's stick to the message. Plain and Simple.

They're just pulling the Alinsky/Lakoff crap to try and make themselves, and Obama look better.

[bad]

O/T Legal types, there is a debate raging about whether a potential employer can legally request to see a potential employees' MySpace or Facebook.

[Fresh Air]

TM--

I realize I'm probably just speaking for myself, but this subject just bores me to tears. Liberals claim we "torture." We defend the actions and the distortion of the English language. Selective information is leaked. We defend the prior administration with other information. LIberals distort said other information. We poke holes in their distortions. Etc., etc.

This never ends. Liberals will never admit they are wrong, that they not only don't possess the moral high ground, they barely even possess any moral ground at all. They reify their fantasy worlds, ignore the reality that unfolds around them, demonize their opponents and smugly dismiss evidence against interest.

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to go in for this one. Plame was interesting. Whether we nearly drowned three terrorists seven years ago is pretty damn near the bottom of my list of things to care about. So as far as the game of who said what, and what information implicates whom, sorry, no sale.

[hit and run]

bad:
O/T Legal types, there is a debate raging about whether a potential employer can legally request to see a potential employees' MySpace or Facebook.

Oh sh*t. And next they'll come for blogs and blog comments.

Sorry, but http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2009/04/wood-burns.html?cid=6a00d83451b2aa69e201156fd16db3970b#comment-6a00d83451b2aa69e201156fd16db3970b>on advice of counsel, I must append the following to my comments:

This electronic blog comment message and any attachments thereto may contain legally privileged and confidential information, and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you received this communication in error, please promptly notify the sender by reply comment or by email and destroy the original message.

[Extraneus]

Hear hear, Fresh Air. If the tables were turned and it was Al Gore and Joe Lieberman who had to deal with the aftermath of 9/11, nobody would be talking about this at all. Just politics, like the surveillance b.s., as the great Jay Rockefeller was keen to note.

[Rick Ballard]

FA,

Why would you think that commenters here are the intended audience? I agree with your premise entirely but I figure that these raging torrents, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives serve a purpose the nature of which exists on a plane far beyond my meager capacity to comprehend.

So, will the NYT or GM BK first? Will the GM bondholders padlock the plants which serve as collateral for the defaulted bonds or will they acquiesce in their own defenestration?

[Charlie (Colorado)]

He said they will make their way around the world with additions liberally inserted and other false documents created all officially matching this one.

He's right, but that cat was out of the bag *long* ago: official form for memos etc like that is public knowledge. Hell, it's pretty close to AR 25-50, and the US Government Correspondence Manual.

[Pofarmer]

Does anybody know what to hell Obama was talking about today when he was going on about "leasing Federal streams for power production"?

BTW, my wife and I have figured out what he means by "Making the U.S. energy independent."

If you want the lights on 24/7, you better own your own generator.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

But I have wondered if some who work in intelligence who might be slightly unbalanced,

(blush)

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

This is the 2nd day and a 2nd thread in which I tried to post a link in a comment and the comment posted but the word/sentence did not have a link. What has changed in the linking process? I see others have embedded links, so what am I now doing wrong that I wasn't doing before?

[Charlie (Colorado)]

I figure that these raging torrents, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives serve a purpose the nature of which exists on a plane far beyond my meager capacity to comprehend.....

Who says classical scholarship is dead.

(It is *so* a classic.)

[bad]

Hit, I was a tad unclear. The debate is raging among the kids at our high school. A girl is claiming she didn't get a job because ahe was asked to show her Facebook or MySpace page at the interview.

It sounds unlikely and illegal so I wanted to know what the legal department had to say.

But I'm really glad you shared your legal advice, Hit. Thanks Bunches!! ♥

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Sara, Typepad has been doing weird intermittent things. I never have any troubles, other people have been having a lot of trouble. The Link Under Name trick seems to be working reliably.

[ben]

More people are catching on......Rasmussen poll shows strong majority thing bailouts were a mistake

"Looking back, 59% of voters nationwide believe the federal bailouts for banks and other financial institutions were a bad idea. The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that just 26% think they were a good idea.

The numbers are similar for the bailout loans given to General Motors and Chrysler: 60% say they were a bad idea, and just 26% hold the opposite view."

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Thanks Charlie. I actually posted the link in the previous thread for:

Changing a Light Bulb Shouldn't Require a Hazmat Response.

It is my opinion that if you have small children at home and use CFRs, you are guilty of child endangerment.

Since it is my only blog post up today, just click LUN for the post.

[bad]

Gibbs is playing the "I never get to see my kid" card.

LUN

[MayBee]

I think this is a hint of just how well a commission exploring all of this will turn out.

If an answer comes out positively for Bush, someone will just know better and declare it a lie.

[Porchlight]

Forgot to wish everyone a Happy Earth Day!

My favorite Earth Day activity is to dump all the week's recycling straight into the trash. For the children.

[Cecil Turner]

Who says classical scholarship is dead.

Ditto. (Or, "you use your tongue prettier" . . . I forget which.)

[Pagar]

Or maybe Hillary could stand in for Biden if he couldn't make it.

Drudge has a picture of Hillary (on his site page)that makes her look like she couldn't stand in for anyone right now. I can't figure out how to link it.

[bad]

Hey Maybee, had a "reality check" lately?

Those people drive me nuts!! You are a saint, though.

[hit and run]

OK, this struck the ol' funny bone today. mrs hit and run is going to a women's retreat this weekend* and found http://www.oceanreefmyrtlebeach.com/spa.cfm?cat=13&id=69>this picture while she was perusing the spa at the resort** to which they will be retreating.

Apparently women are willing to pay good money to be waterboarded.

I've forwarded a list of questions for the spa staff to ask mrs hit and run during her treatment, should she dare endure it ("do I look fat in these jeans***?", etc.)

-----------
*Don't worry, Clarice -- I will not be unsupervised. I'm taking both kids to hit and run jr's Cub Scout camping trip. Though there will be wood chopping and fires involved, you really can't be more supervised than a scout campout. We use the Buddy System!

-----------
**Yes, we just got back from Myrtle Beach for Spring Break, and mrs hit and run is returning again this weekend for the retreat. I've seen her carbon footprint, and it's spectacular.

-----------
***Dude, I've put on 15 lbs since my involuntary shrugitude. I never ate breakfast before, and always worked through lunch. Three meals a day is killing me.

[glenda]

Hit..
Did you get that legal mumbo from Nigeria or Russia?

Porch--Earth Day today? I really contributed to AGW today, sorry...but those burgers were really good!

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Latest Tweet from Karl Rove:

@KarlRove A superstar, not a statesman, today leads our country. http://twurl.nl/xnf3q3

Cheney speaking out this week, Rove vocalizing and writing more and more criticism ... anyone think maybe the former Bushies think it is time for some adults to bring people back to reality?

[Pagar]

I stand with FA on this subject. What we did 7 yrs ago or even 7 months ago is no where near as important IMO, as what we are doing today. My guess is we are doing absolutely nothing to gather intelligence today, except waiting for Bin Laden to release another of his tapes.

[Fresh Air]

Rick--

That's almost poetry you're writing. What's the poem by the pilot that ends "...put out my hand and touched the face of God. "Rare Flight"? Can't remember. Anyway...

Yes, the GM situation is interesting. A pretty good case for equitable subordination of the government's interest can be made, which means the U.S. taxpayer is going to get NADA. We did predict this, I think, but still...

[centralcal]

I agree, FA and Pagar. Enough. Good grief - our law enforcement agencies nationwide taser folks. I can't believe the lefty loons aren't yelping that is torture!!!!

Maybe we shoulda lined up those bad guys and tasered them until they talked?

[Extraneus]

Yeah, Pagar, that hysterical innapropriate cackling must have polled pretty well for her considering the alternatives, huh?

"Have you ever waterboarded anyone, Mrs. Clinton?"

"Ah ha ha ha, ha ha haaaah! Ohhh, ha ha ha."

random cackling link

[hit and run]

Bad:
Gibbs is playing the "I never get to see my kid" card.

Here's the quote...

Gibbs explained to reporters today, "you probably get to see your kids and your family a little bit more often….I saw my son last night when he got up at 11:30 p.m. looking for more milk. So that was the only time I saw him yesterday."

OK, let's just say, I http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2009/01/now-its-tom-daschle-tax-chiseler.html?cid=146832360#comment-146832360>spotted this trend first.

January, baby. Check the date and check google. If'n you dare.

[hit and run]

Glenda:
Did you get that legal mumbo from Nigeria or Russia?

NOOOOOO!!!! Check my "http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2009/04/wood-burns.html?cid=6a00d83451b2aa69e201156fd16db3970b#comment-6a00d83451b2aa69e201156fd16db3970b>on advice of counsel link", it was from Saint Louis.

[Fresh Air]

Ben--

I would love to see the party breakdown on that as Mediacrats only narrowly reject socialism. They probably think wasting money on GM is nifty, though like true class warriors probably disdain the AIG bailout a bit more.

[Porchlight]

Glenda,

My kindergartener just said to me, "Mommy, I helped the world today!" When asked what she did she said "I turned off the light in my room when I wasn't using it."

Ugh.

Now don't get me wrong, I love it when my family turns off lights they're not using. But why do we have to couch it in such syrupy terms? It's nauseating to hear your kids talk like that.

[bad]

Hit, just because you say it and I see it in writing and others testify to it under oath is no reason I have to believe it.

[hit and run]

Bad:
Hit, I was a tad unclear. The debate is raging among the kids at our high school.

Uuugghhhh. H/She is now my competition.

Bring. It. On.

::grin::

kidding.

(another 6-8 months and the kidding stops, but for now ::GRIIIIIINNNNNN::)

[clarice]

hit--I never question you.
bad, I don't know and haven't time to look inot it. But as those things are publicly available and posts on them can come back to hurt the employer, I do not see why asking to see them would be illegal. It's a lesson the kids should learn early--Do not send pics of yourself naked around the world and calim a right to privacy afterwards.

[Porchlight]

Hit, I remember you talking about Gibbs "playing the kid card." He seems to do that when in trouble. Pretty irritating.

clarice, I agree, the sooner kids learn the hard facts about social networking and privacy, the better.

[Captain Hate]

Does anybody know what to hell Obama was talking about today when he was going on about "leasing Federal streams for power production"?

BTW, my wife and I have figured out what he means by "Making the U.S. energy independent."

If you want the lights on 24/7, you better own your own generator.

You and the little lady are spot on, Po. This sounds sooooo much like Carter part Deux with revving up PURPA again, where every tinfoil-helmeted Tom Not-So-Swift can hook up a half-assed generator driven off the wind or a creek and the utilities have to let them feed into their grid and pay them for it at the marginal cost of generating additional power. Needless to say these glorified gadgets were more trouble than they were worth, what with their inherent unreliability and wild swings in levels of output. I used to do PURPA cost of service studies, which were pretty easy considering nobody ever read the f***ing things.

[bad]

Hey Hit, you better get those naked pictures off of your Facebook, cute as they are....

Thanks, Clarice. Some of the kids thought a prospective employer couldn't ask for access, but knew that the employer might find it on their own.

Bless their hearts....

By the way, some kids still believe their MySpace or Facebook is private.

[Gmax]

And in a race against the 100 clock that Obama seems destined to win, Rasmussen has his strong approval versus strong disapproval down to his lowest to date +2, even most dramatic he is down to only single digits on overall approval versus disapproval, dropping a point each day the last two days to hit +9 today. Just think, there are a ton of muddle who have not switch off Oprah yet and figured out this lightweight.

Jimmy Carter did not drop this fast.

[clarice]

You're welcome, bad, but you know what they say about free advice--it isn't worth what you didn't pay for it.

[verner]

That's almost poetry you're writing. What's the poem by the pilot that ends "...put out my hand and touched the face of God. "Rare Flight"? Can't remember. Anyway...

Yeats. Love it

[Gmax]

Equitable subordination. You do not subordinate the sovereign, for the same reason you do not tease the gorilla in the cage. He might : (1) get out and (2) fling poo. Come to think of it that is what the sovereign might do, plus the Congress will just ignor the law or change it retroactively, like the contracts at AIG...

[hit and run]

Gmax!!!

Please tell JMax that the weird guy with the cute daughter who approached the both of you after the match where UNC beat HPU 6-1 in 2007 says HI!

Oh, and hi to you, too, Mr. #2 In-Person JOM Highlight of my life.

[PaulL]

Gmax,

Unfortunately all the other pollsters other than Rasmussen have Obama extremely popular.

I don't doubt that they are allocating way too many points to Democrats, but they still influence general perception. The spread is 30 points when all the bad polls are averaged in with Rasmussen. The New York Times, for example, has the spread at 42 points!

I just don't see Democrats ever budging from their support of Obama no matter what he does. That leaves Republicans and Independents, but I don't see how Obama ever gets below, say 40 or 45% approval.

[Gmax]

PaulL With all due respect, its been 90 days. He is going to be the rock at the bottom of the well, you cant get any lower but it takes time to soak in to the thickheaded and muddled. But it is doing so and at a rate I have never seen previously.

Hit, JMax is signing off these days on the financial statements of MacAfee ( the virus software folks ) who dont have any debt on their books! In the orgy of debt that was start of this century, that is truly an amazing stat. Oh and she is thinking seriously about buying a townhouse cheap and letting Obama give her a $8000 bonus. I would rather see her get it that it be blown on Peace Corps type national service BS.

[sbw]

"Mommy, I helped the world today!"

No, Timmy, you helped yourself today. Timmy, when you turn out the light, you save wealth for our family. Wealth is options.

Some people use their options to buy things. That gives you something and wealth to other people.

Some people put their wealth in the bank, which lets other people use it for a time in return for some more wealth later.

Some people give their extra wealth to others to use because that's their choice.

All three choices, Timmy, are yours to make. And knowing you control your own choices is a worthwhile lesson.

Good night, Timmy. I love you!

[Pofarmer]

anyone think maybe the former Bushies think it is time for some adults to bring people back to reality?

I think they've finally figured out GWB isn't tying their hands any more.

[hit and run]

Gmax:
Hit, JMax is signing off these days on the financial statements of MacAfee

AWESOME! I'm as proud of her as you are as some anonymous blog commenter can possibly be.

But I've met her in person, so nyah, nyah, nyah to all the rest of you losers.

[sbw]

Rove: A superstar, not a statesman, today leads our country. That may win short-term applause...

It's like opium. He'll need larger doses more often.

The One is not going to be able to face his inconsistencies or his declining popularity. He's going to crack. Go reclusive. And we'll only see his handlers.

[JM Hanes]

GMax:

"Jimmy Carter did not drop this fast."

And he started out a lot higher than Obama did too! It's hard to remember that this is still the official honeymoon period, isn't it? He would probably actually be higher in the polls if he hadn't begun trying to run the country from his Office of the President Elect. The idea that his popularity ratings can float above it all indefinitely does seem naive.

[PaulL]

GMax and JMH, I'll be pleased as punch if you're right.

[clarice]

I have a question. I was talking to a friend about the memo and he said it was first leaked to NPR and then released by the WH. I didn't recall this. Does anyone? Can you straighten this out for me?

[Ann]

Hit,

It so nice to see you here that I'm posting a picture from the White House garden just for you:
"White House Approved Queen Greens"

[Ann]

Oops (My daughter is showing me how to use photobucket)

[verner]

JMH, I know it's just my own little corner of the world, but I have never seen people so angry. And with good reason.

My 77 year old mom has already told me that we're going to the tea party march on DC in September. She's going to be talking to her bible stufy gals too. She's never been involved in anything like that. And my brother, who usually is too busy for politics, told me that he may be joining us.

Hey Clarice! Tent City, your front yard, Sept 12!

Just kidding. We'll get a hotel room. LOL

[clarice]

Well, don't buy your sharpened pikes from anybody else but me!!!

[JM Hanes]

PaulL: Me too. I sooooo hope I'm not wrong.

Wow, Ann!
I didn't realize that TM had opened that door. He probably doesn't either, but your picture is worth a thousand words. Somebody oughtta photoshop Obama and the pickaxe in.

verner:
That's what amazes me. So many of the tea party people have never hit the streets before, and the insults they're hearing from the folks inside the beltway are hopefully going to backfire big time.

[hit and run]

ANN!!!! Ok, for the moment, your pic is embedded in the comments. I've never seen that before?!?!?!!!???

How did you do that?

Or it may be the two martinis* I just had are playing tricks on me.

---------
*Make that Clarice** ">http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2009/02/test-post.html?cid=147465391#comment-147465391>"martinis". I wanna be a peasant girl, too.

----------
**Speaking of Clarice and arugula...http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2008/09/debate-live---i/comments/page/11/#comments/?cid=132433898#comment-132433898>she served me the first arugula I ever had, the night of the first McCain-Obama debate. ::sigh:: I remember it like it was yesterday. We all still hoped that Obama would be the "junior senator from Illinois" at this point, and that the "senior senator from Arizona" would be Jon Kyl now. Alas, the memories of the peppery arugula remain, seared, seared (like perfectly grilled quail) on my memory, while the hopes of junior and senior senators has been dashed on the rocks of cold, hard reality.

[clarice]

Good old Hoekstra--Congress knew and bring it on--http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124044188941045415.html

[Ann]

And to think CC thought my ♥ was a big deal! I am getting dangerous.

[bad]

Yeah, Clarice. I'm hot for Hoekstra at the moment.. until someone pops up to take him away from me.

[Pofarmer]

Anybody need a pitchfork sharpening service?

[hit and run]

Verner:
Hey Clarice! Tent City, your front yard, Sept 12!

Back yard! Back yard! Back yard!

Clarice:
Well, don't buy your sharpened pikes from anybody else but me!!!

By then, should I still be without regular employment, I will be willing to subject myself to your pike sharpening sweatshop. I'll work for arugula.

[clarice]

Hit, I sincerely hope you will not need pike shop work..You are way too clever and capable.

[clarice]

I remember that dinner, fondly, too, Hit. It was such a wonderful treat to be able to spend time with you.

[JM Hanes]

Smoke 'em if you got 'em, Po.

[Ann]

Hey guys, Photobucket has html formatting now and I have been having an evil and very fun hour(s).

The funny thing about that last photo is that beefcake really works for Michelle. The caption at Yahoo news is:

Assistant White House Chef Sam Kass carries seedlings that first lady Michelle Obama will plant in the White House Kitchen Garden with students from Bancroft Elementary School in Washington, Thursday, April 9, 2009, on the South Lawn of the White House in Washington.
(AP Photo/Charles Dharapak)

Where is his picture without the chef jacket on? Can they use my tax dollars for good use just once?

Anyways, I think the door is again open because someone posted under my screen name today.

More importantly, I sure hope we can continue to use Photobucket html because I see many hours of life saving hilarity during the Obama depression.

All kudos go to my daughter who I now suspect has my evil gene.:)

[maryrose]

It is so good to hear all of your voices again via this wonderful blog. I hope all of you are well and I will continue to enjoy your erudite opinions.

[JM Hanes]

You rock Ann, Jr!

[JM Hanes]

Hi maryrose! Really nice to see you again.

[Dave]

As to why Bush said nothing about yet another plot, perhaps he didn't want to tip our hand as to how much had been learned from KSM.

"...Our response involves far more than instant retaliation and isolated strikes. Americans should not expect one battle, but a lengthy campaign, unlike any other we have ever seen. It may include dramatic strikes, visible on TV, and covert operations, secret even in success. ..."
    -- George W. Bush, Address to a Joint Session of Congress, September 20, 2001.

[maryrose]

I do so enjoy hearing all of your wonderful and erudite opinions. It does give me hope for the future.

[PD]

Hit, I was a tad unclear. The debate is raging among the kids at our high school. A girl is claiming she didn't get a job because ahe was asked to show her Facebook or MySpace page at the interview.

It sounds unlikely and illegal so I wanted to know what the legal department had to say.

Well, it's not like Facebook or MySpace is private information, is it?

Seems to me that putting up a page there and expecting people not to look is like flashing someone and expecting them to avert their eyes so they don't see you.

[bad]

PD, do you think a kid would be asked to acsess the page during the interview so the prospective employer can view it?

[JM Hanes]

Dave:

Thank you for that quote. Bush took hit after hit without complaint in order not to compromise our security. Obama is his nearly picture perfect opposite. He will never take a hit on even the most minor scale.

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet]

Yeah, JMH, and I suspect that BHO and his staff all think that W was a sucker for doing it. They took advantage of it at every turn.

...Patriots that they are.

[Fresh Air]

JMH--

At bottom, the man is a complete coward. When you strip away all the grandiosity, the pompousness, arrogance, crassness and weapons-grade stupidity, what are you left with? A shriveled little child, a modern Tutankhamen, desperately afraid of being found out.

Well, as Bush well knew, leaders have to lead. Sometimes that means they have to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. It comes with the territory. But if your world is constructed of reified fantasies, like those of every pathological narcissist, you cannot bear to allow reality to intrude, for it sucks the very power of your being dry. The myths are introduced and then inflated by the sycophants, who then take ownership in them. This is why it is so hard for Zero's followers to turn on him.

But ultimately, as he will inevitably fail to protect all those who believed he would, they will turn on him. First it will be a rare event, then smatterings of disloyalty, followed by a torrent. By the end of Zero's term, I predict nothing but a husk of a man will remain, raging and alone.

Yes, there is a least one parallel to this man in fairly recent history. You can develop your own comparison. The man is frighteningly mad.

[PD]

PD, do you think a kid would be asked to acsess the page during the interview so the prospective employer can view it?

I don't know if a kid *would* be asked, but it doesn't strike me as an outlandish request. Particularly if it were for a position such as "journalist" -- after all, it counts as a writing sample.

If I were the employer, I probably would try to find it before the interview, rather than ask to see it during.

[Extraneus]

Cool, Ann! Does this work, too?

[Extraneus]

How about this?

[Extraneus]

Oh yeah.

[clarice]

As to O's arguments that he could give up the memos as some info about them had already been leakedm Steve Aftergood of FAS notes that would be no defense in a criminal suit charging unlawful disclosure and former CIA director Hayden said the govt should have and could have successfully argued against their release.
http://www.rcfp.org/newsitems/index.php?i=10715

[bad]

O's arguement is convieniant for him at the moment but could bite him in the butt real hard in the future.

But what's good for the moment seems to be how this crew operates...

[jorod]

Protecting terrorists is just a red herring to distract people from the real issue: The administration is making plans to rape the American taxpayer.

Wake up people....!!!!!

[centralcal]

Okay, guess I really missed out last night?

I am not seeing any pictures in the comments!

[centralcal]

well whaddayaknow - I refreshed after posting my comment, and Ann's picture appeared along with one of Ex's.

You guys are just too cool!