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April 25, 2009

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elixelx

I wonder if Andy-Pandy would approve of "Torcher" if the subjects were named Bush, Cheney, Rove and Rice?!

pagar

Would any one read Andrew Sullivan if they didn't go there from someone else linking him?

SteveMG

Andrew Sullivan is either a complete liar, a functional illiterate or a zealot.

Hint: he can read and write.

Captain Hate

No Pagar; I refuse to give that AIDS-ridden delusional asswipe posing as a conservative a blog hit.

PeterUK

Miss Havisham has never been the same since Bush nixed gay marriage.

Thomas Collins

I have a hard time taking these second guessers seriously, because they don't press hard on the standards for rendition. In my view, anyone who blathers on about Bush's enhanced interrogation policy as being immoral and then doesn't examine whether Obama can still outsource supposedly immoral enhanced interrogation to other countries is being incredibly morally obtuse.

In the interests of treating fairly certain critics of Bush, see LUN for a Bush critic who has looked at the Obama executive order and concluded that extraordinary rendition wouldn't be in accordance with the order. I happen to disagree with the TalkLeft take on this (I happen to disagree with the views expressed in the substantial proportion of the TalkLeft posts), but at least I give the poster credit for focusing on this issue by actually parsing the text of the Executive Order, as opposed to citing someone's talking points.

Clarice, do the lawyers you know in DC who have looked at this have a view on the extent to which Obama's Exec. Ord. currently limits rendition?

anduril

Does it freakin' matter?

SteveMG

I refuse to give that AIDS-ridden delusional asswipe

He doesn't have AIDs. He's tested positive for HIV.

Why not respond to his arguments (as foolish as they are) and not personally attack him?

Geez....

verner

I think Andrew Sullivan gets 90% of his hits from the comments gang at the Ace of Spades blog. Shesh, they are brutal.

narciso

Andrew Sullivan has become a totallyuseless guide on anything, except various levels of derangement. Speaking of which, here's his
favorite target of derangement, answering back on the hundred days of the leader

SteveMG

Why not respond to his arguments (as foolish as they are) and not personally attack him?

Okay, I plead guilty by calling him a liar or a zealot.

His arguments are dishonest and borne of zealotry.

There.

Captain Hate

He doesn't have AIDs. He's tested positive for HIV.

You're his doctor or otherwise have access to his medical records? Sullivan is a proven liar and if you're willing to take his word on anything that identifies you as a gullible fool.

Captain Hate

verner, AoS has stopped linking to him for what seems like the last 6 months.

verner

That's a shame Capt. Sully was such a good target for developing some excellent comedic material. Though some of it was really really mean. LOL

SteveMG

You're his doctor or otherwise have access to his medical records?

Have a good day...

Danube of Thought

TM, I think you should have put emphasis on the word "specific" as well. If you get intelligence that enables you to round up or kill a good part of the Al Qaeda leadership, you may rest assured that you have prevented a number of attacks, even if you can't say what they would have been.

Sullivan gets attention for the same reason Kevin Phillips does (or used to). Once in the very distant past they expressed some reasonably conservative views, then when they converted to left-wing nutballs it became very handy to respond to genuine conservative arguments by citing these fools in opposition.

verner

Capt. I will only add, that after the Who is Trig's Mommie" conspiracy, I put Andrew Sullivan on my "not worth reading" list. Sad really, because, like Clarice, I used to enjoy him very much.

No matter what you feel about Sarah Palin, the fact that she would knowingly give birth to a child with Downs Syndrome, and call him a gift, is admirable. Especially for anyone who professes the Roman Catholic faith (and I don't know if that includes Sullivan any more.)

Instead, what did we get? I have NEVER seen a gay man so obsessed with a woman's reproductive organs. As a woman, I found it absolutely sick and disgusting. And the idea that a national magazine would allow that garbage under its masthead led to the cancellation of my Atlantic subscription. If they're going to publish garbage, I'm not paying for it.

There's something deeply pathological going on in the boy's head. My theory--he has some type of obsessive romantic/sexual fantasy about Barak Obama. Every key that Andrew strikes is a little tiny love note. It's the only explanation I can come up with, for a complete surrender of all reason.

And what a joke to think they they were once calling him Orwell like.

Andy is just going to have to write without me in his reading community. Unless of course, TM happens to put up a paragraph or two. Then I just read it to chuckle.

Terrye

Dishonest or Dumb? Both, it is not as if they are mutually exclusive.

Jane

Verner,

He's a man scorned (by George Bush) and nothing more.

JM Hanes

I actually believe that Sullivan is paying the mental piper in print for all that "better living through chemistry" he touted for years. Prurience, now exacerbated, was always his middle name. He was as fascinated by his own reactions to testosterone injections as he is by torture and by the intimate details of Palin's pregnancy.

I'd love to see his demographics though, because he's clearly got a substantial -- or fanaticial -- following, judging from the vote in the annual best blog/blogger competition.

Charlie (Colorado)

Steve, I'm increasingly convinced that Sullivan is in fact exhibiting several actual symptoms of AIDS, mainly neurological.

Charlie (Colorado)

Does anyone else get the impression that Sullivan thinks interrogation is torture whenever performed by an administration opposed to naming legalized homosexual unions "marriage"?

verner

JM, he's got name recognition. Even though he's an out and out nut case now, he's been around for years and is an insider.

narciso

Agreed, Verner, Horace Greeley and to a lesser extent Michael Kelley are very dissapointed in their own way. The Atlantic
really went crazy sometime around 2005, when they ran that piece by Richard Clarke, sketching a devastating set of AQ attacks, based on the research funded by the CTC of all things, to the Atlantic Council.
Yglesias,Douthat, even McArdle all succumbed to this extreme anti American current. BTW, can someone send me the Rosetta, I wouldn't have guessed your gender, then again maybe I'm not that observant.

KJ

Look, this is all about who should have the burden of proof that tortures does any good. Since we can all agree that getting information via non-torture is superior to getting information via torture, the burden of proof lies with those who insist torture is fabulous. There is no evidence to be had that torture has done any good. It seems overwhelmingly obvious that you'd want to have some shred of evidence that torture does any good before implementing a torture policy considering all the problems our little policy of torture has caused.

So far, no evidence of increased intelligence gathering and tons of evidence of making us look like hypocritical assholes.

verner

Yes, Narciso, I'm an XX.

PD

I'm not XYY. I think.

PD

Just don't push me.

PD

There is no evidence to be had that torture has done any good.

Somehow this suggests to me that nothing would meet your standard of proof. Am I right?

Topsecretk9

Riddle me this batman, if so-called 'torture' doesn't work, then why has Hollywood produced about a million films in the last century telling us it does?

SteveMG

Steve, I'm increasingly convinced that Sullivan is in fact exhibiting several actual symptoms of AIDS, mainly neurological.

Charlie, have you seen him? He's huge, hardly indicative of someone with full-blown AIDs.

Granted, as I understand it, not everyone suffering from AIDs wastes away. But there's nothing I see - since we're all playing online doctor - to show that he's seriously ill.

He used to be a writer who was gay. Or a Catholic who was gay. Or a conservative who was gay. His homosexuality was an ancillary part of him, albeit a significant component.

I think at some point he decided that his homosexuality would be the defining quality (as you know, he got married last year to a gay man) of himself and as such it became the lodestar of his politics and everything else.

His vision of a gay America where gay people were absolutely and totally equal - not just legally but culturally as well - is blocked right now by the Republican party, conservatives and, especially by the "Christianists" (thus the hatred for Palin).

And so he decided to wage war on them, e.g., he stated last year that "the Republican Party must be destroyed".

This fury is the cause of his erraticism. Opponents yesterday will be used today for his agenda, someone he attacked last week can be used tomorrow, words will be stripped of context, and so on.

He wants to destroy Bush and the Republicans. And using the issue of "torture" is just a handy stick to employ.

Sexual politics, if you will, not mental instability.

verner

I'll just add Narciso, the Atlantic joined my canceled subscriptions to New York Review of Books, the London Review of Books, Harpers and the Nation.

I'm an avid consumer of information, and could ignore the left bias in favor of good writing and interesting topics. (and the Nation was always a good way to see what the left was up to.)

But it just got to the point that I simply could not take the utter bull shit any more.

Any art slipped into the same thing we're seeing in Sullivan. Benda's Trahison des Clercs meets the democrat party with a heavy measure of George Bush is the anti-christ.

And do you know who I blame in part? Soros. He's been spreading around his filthy money, and buying up writers and intellectuals for years. That, and the fact that most of them care more about what their peers think than their readers.

Topsecretk9

He wants to destroy Bush and the Republicans. And using the issue of "torture" is just a handy stick to employ.

This is true. He's always claiming to be a conservative though. And yet, there is not one socialism like policy he can disagree on with Obama. I just think he's a surface worshiper.

Rick Ballard

I find it unfortunate that so many innocent pixels must die due to indecisiveness over the "cause" behind the drug addled raving of a disease ridden single issue phony.

Such a waste.

The pixels really don't deserve it.

verner

SteveMG, in other words, he wants to destroy what he wants to be a part of.

If you think that cultural equality is the goal, you are sadly mistaken. Domination is more like it.

He hates everyting with a vagina, and the men who love them.

PeterUK

"I just think he's a surface worshipper".
No he's a bottom worshipper.His main motivation is that of a woman scorned,and boy can gay men do scorned.

Extraneus

He hates everyting with a vagina, and the men who love them.

I haven't ever actually gone to his site, but this make the most sense from what I've read from him.

Strange, during this time of year when peepers peep all night and the goldfinches are so totally yellow. (OT, but I even saw a bluebird not 10 feet from my bluebird house, which the house swallows took over last year.)

Andrew probably doesn't like that sort of thing either, huh?

boris

The goal posts are being moved from "waterboarding doesn't work" to "waterboarding wasn't necessary because we could have sweet talked the same intel".

That's a big backdown. If it really didn't work the public might take a dim view of tormenting the evildoers responsible for 911. Since it did work the public is not going to give a sh!t that sweet talking those bastards might have worked just as good.

Even if all the most successful methods were on the table from the beginning it seems to me you start on the highest value captives with the quickest working method to find out if there is anything in the works that can be stopped in time. That's pretty much how it got played so I wonder why the strategery isn't obvious to anybody who honestly considers the situation.

lurking

Wow, it's well worth watching 8 minutes of Liz Cheney matching wits with Nora O'Donnell over the interrogation memoes. Video found at Redstate. Liz cleans Nora's clock.

sbw

Shun the dolt.

sam

Andrew Sullivan is prime example of what happens when you let your dick do your thinking.

verner

Andrew probably doesn't like that sort of thing either, huh?

Nope ex,. the national geographic channel is a definite out.

centralcal

"Shun the dolt."

I am. I have. I will always.

The only time I have any idea what he is saying/thinking/opining is on a blog such as this.

No reading, no linking, is the surest way to silence this idiot and others like him.

Rick Ballard

"isn't obvious to anybody who honestly considers the situation"

That's quite a problem for the second rate second guessers playing Semantics For Idiots.

I'm rather intrigued as to legal basis for the President's authorization to conduct targeted assassinations in Pakistan. I have no problem with the action itself, the blood of the innocent women and children whom the muslim cowards hide among is on their heads (even though I've seen accounts suggesting that fifteen bystanders are being killed on the President's orders for every cowardly jihadi dispatched).

Is the AUMF so expansive that it covers continuing operations in Pakistan?

Charlie (Colorado)

So far, no evidence of increased intelligence gathering and tons of evidence of making us look like hypocritical assholes.

There are none so blind as those who don't read the goddamn sources.

Charlie (Colorado)

Sorry, Steve, I was being funny. Or I thought so, anyway. But his looks are very suggestive of HIV-related lipodystrophy -- the "buffalo hump" and bulky body.

Danube of Thought

"Since we can all agree that getting information via non-torture is superior to getting information via torture, the burden of proof lies with those who insist torture is fabulous."

Why on earth does that follow? And how about those who do not think it is fabulous, but instead view it as a distasteful but necessary procedure under very limited and controlled circumstances?

"There is no evidence to be had that torture has done any good."

There is abundant evidence in the testimony of five former DNI's and Obama's current intelligence czar.

Danube of Thought

"Is the AUMF so expansive that it covers continuing operations in Pakistan?"

Even if it is, that doesn't mean it isn't a criminal act under the "international law" so beloved by the Left.

Danube of Thought

AUMF, in pertinent part:

"a) IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons."

Does the president think Pakistan satisfies the test? If not, how has he determined that any of the targets of his assassinations satisfy it?

Jane

His vision of a gay America where gay people were absolutely and totally equal - not just legally but culturally as well - is blocked right now by the Republican party

Actually, achievement of that goal would render him just another moonbat. It would in reality be his worse nightmare.

PD

lurking, thanks for pointing out the Liz Cheney interview. Well worth watching.

RichatUF

I've got a minor technical question for the JOM bar here and not sure how useful it is, but here it it goes.

The Obama Administration selectively released the OLC legal memos for political gain, but in doing so, didn't he open up the work product of the OLC to other sorts of political attack?* In short, does doing this, severely weaken the EOP (much more so than is currently recognized), and open up other areas of the EOP which have traditionally been immune to FOIA or Congressional political attack? Like I said it is a minor point, but I thought that attorneys work product was closely guarded and confidential, and it seems that the political calculations to release them was gamed out for no more than 2 or 3 news cycles.

*My point here is that during the Clinton Administration, when Castro shot down the 2 BTR aircraft killing all on board (26 I believe), the surviving family members of those killed applied for compensation from the frozen Cuban assets the Treasury holds. I don't remember all the details, but as a matter of political convenience, the Clinton Administration, on executive authority alone, authorized payments, which has opened up a whole new vista of those who are victims of terror attacks sueing offending governments. IIRC the Justice Department had to fight a lawsuit regarding the Embassy Hostages and Iran in which Justice was effectively acting as Iran's lawyer.

And a comment on this point which has been raised on other threads as well:

**...Obama can still outsource supposedly immoral enhanced interrogation to other countries...**

And what would stop, say a MB sympatherizer working in the Egyptian Mukhabarat, from videotaping a real torture session of a suspected terrorist the US has picked up and turned over, releasing said video to human rights lawyers and media in the US and Europe, and burning the names of the unlucky CIA or FBI agents who are watching the torture in the next room who were feeding the interrogators questions and noting the terror suspects answers.

By releasing the memos, the Obama Administration would have to be dumber than ditch water to think that they won't get burned by any nominally allied government, especially those in the Middle East.

Rick Ballard

DoT,

Given that the President has repeatedly stated that he, like President Clinton, believes that law enforcement is the most effective tool to be used in response to terrorism, I find it astonishing that he resorts to extralegal execution of suspects as a seemingly preferred response.

Has he gone to The Hague for even so much as a search warrant? Has the FBI been tasked to coordinate its terrorism efforts with Interpol? Did he seek permission from the Security Council or General Assembly prior to acting as a one man vigilante organization?

I find his actions strangely inconsonant with his words in regards to handling what he has always maintained was primarily a law enforcement issue. What writ does he possess that allows him to kill and maim innocent women and children along with alleged criminal suspects in Swat?

clarice

Charlie, I agree. I have known two people with AIDS and sometime before they started wasting physically, they exhibited signs of mental failing.

His fascination with torture and female reproductive systems (including his utter panic at menstrual blood) is something else again, and to me an indication of a rather substantial derangement..

PD

By releasing the memos, the Obama Administration would have to be dumber than ditch water to think that they won't get burned by any nominally allied government, especially those in the Middle East.

I'm wondering if this administration isn't dumber for ditch water for burning the previous administration and not considering whether the next administration will do exactly the same to them.

PD

OT: Rcently, we discussed here the film version of "The Fountainhead," and how bad it was.

If you're anxious to find out for yourself, TCM is showing it Sun 26th, 5AM Central time. :-)

Charlie (Colorado)

Oh, hot damn, I've always meant to watch that.

Gary Cooper as Howard Roark.

laura

I stopped reading AS when he gave as a definition of Santorum, "a mixture of ....."
Let's just say it was so vile I could no longer see any reason to read him. There could never be any legitimate reason for anyone to make a comment so low about a simple political opponent. Now I can never think of AS without that comment creeping in.

Danube of Thought

RichardUF, I'm not sure what you mean by EOP. If you're talking about executive privilege, to the extent these documents were previously withheld on that ground the traditional rules of litigation would hold that their release waives that privilege with respect to the entire subject matter. It's the common-sense rule that you can't waive a privilege only for the stuff you like; you must either assert it or let it all hang out.

Problem is, these documents were withheld because of their classification as Top Secret, and the president has the ultimate authority to classify and de-classify. Under the present circumstances I don't think there is any way that any court anywhere would ever order the remaining documents (the ones showing the results of the interrogations) declassified.

As to Obama's assassinations, I don't know of any court that could or would assert jurisdiction over him (except maybe Spain, but don't hold your breath). There is an International Criminal Court, but it only has jurisdiction over member states, and the US (for very good reason) has not become a member. The International Court of Justice does not have any criminal jurisdiction.

Danube of Thought

Charlie, watch that turkey at your great peril. Ayn Rand insisted on writing and having final say on the screenplay, and the characters talk to each other as though they were giving John Galt's speech. Worst dialogue in the history of cinema. It is to bad dialogue what Now, Voyager is to smoking.

Charlie (Colorado)

Exactly why I always meant to watch it. Should be hysterical.

Strawman Cometh

Dr. Patrick Michaels, on Redeye (Gutfeld continues to do Gaia's work), had a great reply when asked if Gore et al regretted saying that the "debate was over". "No" he said, "the debate is over because they refuse to debate".

RichatUF

Danube-

Many thanks.

EOP->Executive Office of the President.

Where Obama is stuffing all his czars and where about half of the members (mostly national security council) fall outside the scope of the FOIA and for the most part Congressional oversite.

The memo release just has the feel of having catastrophic and unintended consequencies. Can't quite put my finger on it though.

Patterico

To answer your question:

Both.

RichatUF

And I noticed this flaggged up at NR (LUN). Congress is going to use the reconcilation process to cramdown health care "reform" and cap-and-trade. That ought to be a fine disaster.

If I recall, Hillarycare, died because of its own incomprehensibility and the secret, then confrontational, ways in which the Clinton Administration tried to sell it to the public and Congress.

Now the Obama Administration wants to cram through the largest tax hike in American history and re-make one of the largest sectors of the US economy (with them already tackling financials and autos?). However, instead of a seperate piece of legistlation, Obama wants to hijack the entire federal budget. Yowsers.

MayBee

There is no proof Saddam Hussein would not have attacked us in April 2007 had we not gone to war against him when we did.

RichatUF

Patterico-

Was that for my questions above?

Maybee-

Saddam's Delusions and the Iraqi Perspective Project is a good point of departure. See Hayes' take from a few years back at LUN.

from the report (qtd. in Hayes)

***The Saddam Fedayeen also took part in the regime's domestic terrorism operations and planned for attacks throughout Europe and the Middle East. In a document dated May 1999, Saddam's older son, Uday, ordered preparations for "special operations, assassinations, and bombings, for the centers and traitor symbols in London, Iran and the self-ruled areas [Kurdistan]." Preparations for "Blessed July," a regime-directed wave of "martyrdom" operations against targets in the West, were well under way at the time of the coalition invasion.***


lurking

No Rich, it was for 'dishonest, or just dumb'

PD, Liz Cheney for Preznint.

RichatUF

Sorry.

rhymin' simon

This is the same Eric Holder of Mark Rich fame who will do whatever POTUS tells him to do. It is not what the definition of torture is but what are the rules of pay to Play. O and Rham claim in Blago affair no inappropiate contacts and play for pay was not improper. Yet they leak Harman AIPAC NSA connection which is much less controversial. And Lets not forget our friend Anrew Cuomo who is investigating Steve Rattner for Quadrangle NYS pension pay for play. but the democrats are playing nice they are going to have their reconciliation and claim that the reublicans are the paty of no. Now we know wht yes we can means. Yes we can do whatever we want and who is going to stop us. Eerily similar to Roosevelt packing the Supreme Court when many of his New Deal manuevers were deemed unconstitutional.

Pofarmer

"Now the Obama Administration wants to cram through the largest tax hike in American history and re-make one of the largest sectors of the US economy (with them already tackling financials and autos?). However, instead of a seperate piece of legistlation, Obama wants to hijack the entire federal budget. Yowsers. "

Don't leave out the energy sector. If you control finance, energy, auto's, and health care, what the hell else do you need to control?

Peter

Torture works. So do other methods, eventually, sometimes. But torture works faster and it works every time.

Now it's true that the people asking the questions need some understanding, otherwise we see cases like McCain giving the roster of a pro football team to the North Viets. That is not the fault of the tool, it's the fault of the questioners.

If torture didn't work spys wouldn't work in such small cells. If torture didn't work we would have had a lot more of those OSS teams live through WW2.

If torture didn't work why did the Nazis and the Communists use so much of it?

verner

I haven't seen this posted.

Marc Thiessen gives Noah and Sullivan a complete butt whoopen in the NRO. LUN

In the real world, this should be the end of debate. In "Andy World", I doubt it.

Terry Gain

Miss Havisham has never been the same since Bush nixed gay marriage.

Prior to losing his mind over that issue Sullivan wrote the most eloquent and compelling humanitarian case I've seen for the liberation of Iraq. It should be linked to whenever his name is used in a blog. I don't have time to find article, just now.

kate

There was a time after 9/11, that I enjoyed reading AS. In fact, I tried to contribute to his website. My numerous efforts failed, since I wasn't able to get Pay Pal to work.

Shortly after my bungled attempt to contribute, AS started to go left or nuts, not sure which, but that's one time I was happy to not be totally technically savy.

clarice

Yes, he did Terry.

Captain Hate

That's a shame Capt. Sully was such a good target for developing some excellent comedic material.

verner, I stopped posting here last night because a certain douchetool was being irritating and, well, I have a life. Ace still posts Thully's delusional garbage (well at least some of the more outlandish, assuming there's any other kind) for comedy's sake (as you noted) but won't link to him for the same reason I won't. Those whores at The Atlantic can shred every bit of credibility they thought they had for increased innerwebz hits. F*** them.

Charlie (Colorado)

Eerily similar to Roosevelt packing the Supreme Court when many of his New Deal manuevers were deemed unconstitutional.

Remember, though, that trick didn't actually work.

PeterUK

What is disturbing about Sullivan is not his bitterness,but his descent into depravity.His pursuit of Sarah Palin and her family is obscene.Gutter journalism of the worst kind.

RichatUF

Pofarmer-

I wish the media were more honest and called Obama's "energy policy" a radical environmentalist policy. They have gone so far as to cancel the remaining work on the USGS' Arctic Survey.

Ridiculous to call what Obama is doing an energy policy. More like a rolling blackout policy.

Rick Ballard

Rich,

No rolling blackouts during the Obama Maladministration. The 10% fall in GDP since his election assures that capacity will be available for those who can afford it (plus the usual (D)irty Socialist worthless clients). As factories continue to be shuttered and production continues to fall due to -Zero "growth", less and less power will be required. Remember - he promises that, in the end, only 3-5 million jobs will remain due to his efforts.

The (D)irty Socialist Party intends to achieve that 20% renewable goal by reducing the power needs of the economy through closing in production. ZombieMotors has pledged to do its part this summer by shuttering plants for 11 weeks (on its way to 52 weeks).

Think of all the energy saved by nonproduction of Pelosi Widowmakers this summer!

Ignatz

-Remember, though, that trick didn't actually work.-

I would say it did work, only indirectly.
The court packing itself was rolled back but thereafter the court was remarkably more compliant toward FDR's (and later) schemes.

Ignatz

-Look, this is all about who should have the burden of proof that tortures does any good.-

Typical punk lefty, who thinks his moronic linguistic assumptions are the field on which all things must be discussed.

No, first it's about what IS torture.
When someone claims others are breaking international law, US law, the Ten Commandments and the Girl Scout Handbook, the burden of proof is on that person making the accusation, you frickin idiot.

Danube of Thought

Thiessen cites a Pew poll for the proposition that 71% of Americans support the use of torture in certain circumstances, but I couldn't find that number in the poll he linked to. Any ideas?

MayBee
What is disturbing about Sullivan is not his bitterness,but his descent into depravity.His pursuit of Sarah Palin and her family is obscene.Gutter journalism of the worst kind.

And the newly elected President-elect of the United States rewarded him with a meeting.
I don't forget that.

PeterUK

"And the newly elected President-elect of the United States rewarded him with a meeting."

Zzziiiiip."It's twoo,it's twoo!"

Tully

Dishonest, Or Just Dumb?

Why does it have to one or the other? Can't it be both?

drjohn

THIS is arguably as important as anything else coming out of those interrogation sessions:

"After being subjected to waterboarding and other brutal methods in 2002, Abu Zubaydah explained that he and his "brothers" were permitted by Allah to yield when interrogators pushed them to the limit of their endurance. At that point, he provided information that helped the CIA capture Ramzi Binalshibh. The two captives then gave up details that led to the capture of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed (KSM, in official shorthand), whom Zubaydah had identified as the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks. KSM, in turn, was initially defiant but -- after being tormented and waterboarded more than 100 times -- gave up information leading to the capture of a terrorist named Zubair, and then to the capture of Hambali, leader of Al Qaeda's Southeast Asian affiliate Jemaah Islamiyah, and then to his brother "Gun Gun" in Pakistan, whose information led to a cell of 17 Southeast Asian terrorists."

http://www.nationaljournal.com/njmagazine/or_20090425_8738.php

Of course, now we've let them know that we know and they can prepare....

sbw

PeterUK! How catty! Funny. I liked it. But catty.

Cam Winston

Charlie, have you seen him? He's huge...

If by 'huge', you mean five foot nothing and fat with lots of water retention thanks to the prescribed 'roids, then, okay.

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Wilson/Plame