Ben Smith, With A Bullet

Ben Smith's debunking of the Obama-Sullivan myth-making about Winston Churchill and Britain's non-use of torture during WWII is climbing onto Memeorandum.  With a bullet.  Also a truncheon and some electrical devices.  I get to it eventually in this earlier post.

I see that Michael Tomasky of the Guardian has joined in, so the meme that Churchill tortured is lefty-approved.  Let me add that after twenty minutes with Google, I could only find the Guardian stories from 2005 (and derivative versions) with the news about the London Cage and Andrew Scotland.  Well, that plus courtroom allegations by a Nazi war criminal.

Comments

[verner]

Churchill was a great man, but a paragon of moral virtue he was not.

The examples are simply too numerous to mention--everything from his treatment of the Irish during the Uprising, to the use of Mustard gas in Iraq, to the carpet bombings of German cities, to the British treatment of Japanese soldiers.

This is not a condemnation of one of the 20th century's greatest leaders--it is rather a recognition that WAR IS HELL. Leaders do what they have to do, sometimes they are right, and sometimes wrong. We have the luxury of a flyover from the comfort of our easy chairs, so it's easy for us to judge.

Bottom Line though, Obama doesn't know crap about history. I think his real problem is that he can't find an example where a significant world leader has ditched the protection of his people for lofty moral/political posturing.

Do any of you have any examples?

[Big Ollie]

My late father related an incident in Germany near the end of world war 2. He was in the 84th infantry division with a 105 mm battery.

The burgermeister of a German town and his wife were seized by US troops for signalling the position of US troops to the Wehrmacht.

They were roughly interrogated and summarily executed as spies within a day or two.

Henry Kissinger served as an intelligence officer of the 84th Infantry division btw.

[verner]

Hey, Fox just knocked down the Churchill crapola by the way.

[MayBee]

Bottom Line though, Obama doesn't know crap about history. I think his real problem is that he can't find an example where a significant world leader has ditched the protection of his people for lofty moral/political posturing.

Exactly, verner.

[clarice]

Carter tried, verner. He really gave it his est shot.

[verner]

Yeah Clarice. St. Jimmah who facilitated a war between Iraq and Iran with his deeply virtuous policies. That one had a human cost of about 1 million.

And then there's his utter whoosieness, that gave a green light for the USSR to invade Afghanistan.

Nothing gets people killed like "nice guy" foreign policy. Just ask Neville Chamberlain.

[Ranger]

I think Lincoln is the clearest example of how far a leader must be willing to go to preserve the community he has become leader of. Ending slavery was his highest personal goal, yes as president he clearly articulated that he would give up that goal to preserve the Union if nessessary. He took his duty as president so seriously, that he could put asside his most cherished personal objective to meet the needs of the office.

This is what is so depressing about Obama's moral preening about waterboarding. It demonstrats his total misunderstanding of the responabilities he has accepted.

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

Karl Rove has a nice line in his WSJ column today, to the effect that Obama cares more about the aesthetics of a policy than the substance.

[BumperStickerist]

In the spirit of being original without being unique - and dispelling the Lefty notion that our Dark Lord Master Karl Rove controls us all - here's my independently concluded post on this at Ace of Spades comment section -

http://minx.cc/?blog=86&post=286646#c4816788

and a display of my mad Google skillz:

and, for the record and in the interest of reproducible results - here's the google search in all its marvelous, subtle splendor.

britsh wwII interogation techniques german spies

Rove's mind-rays may have taken the form of several beers, nothing good on TV, and my having some familiarity with Churchill.

I mean, Churchill as a Nice Guy? Let's go to Bartlett's Quotations on Churchill !

German Spy - Sir, if I were a British Citizen I would poison your tea.

Churchill - Sir, if you were a British citizen, I should drink it - but you're not, so, we're going to send you to a place far from the Red Cross and torture the bejesus out of you. Cheers.

[verner]

And I feel Like an audio loop here, but it's rather insincere to a) ban EI while you keep rendition and b)not address the "constitutional" concerns surrounding using hellfire missiles on "alleged" terrorists, if you're going to be a stickler to law and c) in the same breath that he condemns WBing, state that he will do "whatever it takes" to protect the American People--as in he will not rule out using EI.

Hello! Do we remember what the Bushies were facing post 911?

Either clueless, or a liar and hypocrite.

[ROA]

At least Churchill did condemn the Amritsar Massacre in India.

He said : "The incident in Jallian Wala Bagh was an extraordinary event, a monstrous event, an event which stands in singular and sinister isolation". (From Wikipedia)

[bad]

[Obama cares more about the aesthetics of a policy than the substance.]

Exactly opposite his requirements in a wife...

[verner]

Of course he did ROA. Like most great men (and unlike Obama) Churchill was incredibly complex in thinking and action--just like real life.

[Old Lurker]

"Either clueless, or a liar and hypocrite."

Why not all three?

[verner]

Good point OL

[verner]

Gibbs now telling Tapper that members of US delegation to Mexico exhibiting flu like symptoms.

Excuse for Biden priceless.

[Mitch H.]

Wait, I thought his Kenyan grandfather was arrested and tortured during the Mau-Mau by British colonial police under Churchill's undistinguished second term as prime minister in the Fifties? Does Obama have any long-term memory at all, or is he just a parrot that regurgitates whatever the speechwriters have downloaded to the teleprompter today?

[centralcal]

Very good, bad! (O's wife requirements).

LOL

[bad]

CC, that was pretty awful of me wasn't it?

[narciso]

Rendition is a way of not taking the moral consequences of said operations. You think anyone really would get redress from the Egyptian, Syrian, Jordanian Mukharabats,
or Saudi Mahabeth, no that's not what they're for. The AL Libi case in particular shows what happens when you use those
methods to extract information. Omar Nassiri, a Tunisian AQ member who had worked with the Belgian Surete, in his bio says he believes Al Libbi lied because it would drive the US into a quagmire, than again that assumes there were no such WMD
protocols as he described.

[John Lofton, Recovering Republican]

Oh, and don’t forget Churchill’s note to General Ismay re: dropping poison gas on German cities (and ridiculing as “Psalm singers” those Christians who might object); he also wanted to do something with anthrax, too, I believe. In principle, Churchill and America were no different from the Nazis re: the murder of civilians. See, please, among other books, Ronald Schaffer’s “Wings Of Judgment: American Bombing In World War II” (Oxford, 1985). And of course there is America’s allowing more than 50 million abortions, the murder of innocent human beings in the womb* – 50 million being the approximate number of all those killed, on both sides, in World War II – 50 million being three times the population of Iraq whose dictator we said was the focus of all evil in the world because he killed an estimated one million people. We have shed a lot of innocent blood – which God says in His Word He hates. We are morally qualified to judge NOBODY!

John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com
Recovering Republican
[email protected]

* There’s more than a 9/11 in the womb, every day in America, round the clock, 24/7.

[daddy]

AS we continue to self-educate ourselves on Winston Churchill, I hope you won't mind my re-posting my comment about Churchill and the NAZI bombing of Coventry during WW2.

"Just caught the Winston Churchill bit on an O'Reilly replay. It is interesting to me that Obama cited Churchill. There has long been a serious discussion of whether Churchill knew beforehand of the Nazi mission to bomb Coventry on 14-15 November, 1940, but that he refused to pre-alert the city of 320,000 citizens in order to prevent the Nazi's from knowing that their code had been broken.

Don't know if it's true, and doubt we'll ever know conclusively if it's true, but with what I imagine is going to be the Media, with their woeful understanding of history, applauding Obama's comments, I think its worth discussing this instance of Churchill's actions as a Wartime Prime Minister, tasked with maintaining the safety of the British people.

Bush is under attack for ordering what Obama considers torture, in order to get timely information from KSM to prevent the deaths of massive amounts of innocent citizens. Churchill, on the other hand, supposedly intentionally failed to forewarn the targeted innocent citizens of Coventry, so that Hitler would not discover his Code had been broken, and Churchill could then use future code info to kill many, many more humans and win the war. Thats about the gist of it.

For me, I do not fault Bush with what he did, nor do I fault Churchill for what he supposedly did. But I do think that those who agree with Obama that what Bush did to protect innocent citizens was absolutely wrong, will have a tough time justifying Churchill's intentional sacrifice of innocent citizens for ulterior motives.

I doubt we'll hear any discussion of Churchill's role in the Coventry Bombings by the MSM over the next few days, but thought I would throw this out there as food for thought, as we JOMer's quickly do our own crash courses to self-educate ourselves on the details the MSM leaves out.

Posted by: daddy | April 30, 2009 at 04:37 AM

[Joshua]

I have a better understanding of where some of this increasing irrationality on the part of Sullivan, if not downright craziness, is coming from after what I read on a Sully watch blog last week.

According to it, Sullivan's husband has told friends that "Andrew has been blogging over recent days from a mental health facility (a place called Austen Riggs Center) located in Massachusetts." His post indicated that the place was some sort of high-end setting, with minimal restrictions on patient activities and with no confinement to rooms.

Why am I not surprised by this news?

[narciso]

John, you need to go back to rehab and don't peddle that garbage here. You don't do the prolife cause, any good with those metaphors. Iraq has 24 million people by the way, so it's a two/one not three/one ratio. So we can't judge the jihadists, or the Chinese gerontocrats, or the Janjaweed
butchers is that it.

[Paul Zrimsek]

We are morally qualified to judge NOBODY!

So stop already.

[verner]

Per the website:
Austen Riggs
Where 'treatment resistant patients become people taking charge of their lives

Yep. Like we were saying. Something deeply sick going on in his head.

I feel sorry for him.

I wish him a healthy, speedy recovery.

And hope when he comes out he'll stop irrationally blaming those who disagree with him over gay marriage for all his problems.

[Ignatz]

-what I read on a Sully watch blog last week-

Got a link for that, Joshua?

[daddy]

Also a bit OT, but just to let everyone know that Verner and I had a wonderful discussion late into the wee hours last night that was quite stimulating. She is a wonderful writer, thinker, and conversationalist, and if that's not enough to make you other ladies envious, she also lives in the town that Instapundit tells us today, possesses the">http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2009/04/28/2741708-flush-with-class-tenn-bathroom-voted-best-in-us">the finest bathroom in America!

Hit, If you would post a photo of a Dozen Red Roses I would be much obliged.

Verner, have you met Mark Steyn yet?

[Jane]

Wow - you two rascals!

(Hands off Steyn, I already won him)

[matt]

during WW II, Ultra intercepts delivered a huge trove of information on Nazi operational plans. Many of those plans that we did not act upon cost thousands of Allied lives. In one case in 1944, a U.S. transport ship with 10,000 troops was sunk with almost all hands despite forewarning of a U Boat attack.To do so would have jeopardized the source of the information.

It was said that Churchill may have learned of the bombing of Coventry through Ultra intercepts. It is certain he used every available means necessary to destroy Britain's enemies. Presidents and Prime Ministers cannot afford to have clean hands. The buck stops on their desk.

[hit and run]

To: Verner
From: Daddy

I threw in an extra dozen, just cuz.

[hit and run]

(I used to live just a few miles from Verner when I lived in the town with the finest bathroom in America)

[hit and run]

Another couple dozen won't hurt, even if typepad chooses to make them show up later (because they ain't showing up right now).

[bad]

Oh great, verner has daddy wrapped around her little finger...

yo, Dick Morris, you big hunk of whatever... hubba hubba

[clarice]

I ran the "andrew wullivan purported quote thru Google blog and JOM was the only thing that very effective vacuum cleaner picked up.

[daddy]

Thanks Hit,

I owe you big time:)

[clarice]

I did run it as Andrew SULLIVAN

(gosh I am sorry for putting you thru this horrid typing.)

[cathyf]

The, everybody knows that the world's greatest restroom is the mens room at the Madonna Inn in San Luis Obispo.

Its famed rock waterfall urinal is a fixture along California's Central Coast. Many tourists come to visit the urinal, to the embarrassment of males who genuinely need to use the facilities.

[lurking]

'treatment resistant'? Hmmm, denial be thy name.

[Ann]

Bad,

yo, Dick Morris, you big hunk of whatever ...hubba hubba

Honestly, I laughed so hard my drink came out my nose.

[jdub]

you know what was cold?

coventry, that's what.

not that i blame the man; he thought it was necessary and i understand his point. hell, i'd hate to try to sleep at night after making a call like that.

fucking coventry. google it.

[bad]

I'm glad that pleased you, Ann. Michelle is teaching me to be about service to others so if I serviced you well then I'm on the path to enlightment.

What a darling picture!!!

[Uncle Jefe]

Another fucking idiot equates America to the nazis.
Listen, dipshit, we weren't sending people to death camps where they were immediately gassed to death and then burned in ovens, or worked/starved to death, or served as lab rats for vivisections and other 'experiments' that ended in death, or shot to death, burned to death...
No Rapes of Nanking took place by American troops, nor 'comfort women' taken by them either...
Bombing those enemy cities was to deprived them of factories and other forms of supplies for the Japanese and nazi war machines, as well as trying to drive them to surrender whilst minimizing future casualties if invasions of the homelands were necessary.
We saved millions of lives (military and civilian) by bombing rather than invading, period, end of fucking story.

[Thomas Collins]

Best restroom? I don't know, but for most valuable "natural restroom," it is a tie among any reasonable downward slope of woods just off a highway with no service areas and exits far apart from one another. Why? Because in such a situation, if one doesn't find a suitably discrete area off the highway, to bring in another theme recently much discussed on JOM threads, it is pure torture! :-))

[verner]

WOW, I'm absolutely speechless. I feel like Scarlet O'Hara at the Twelve Oaks Barbecue. I hope you fellow JOM ladies will try not to be too jealous.

Thank You daddy and hit. You've made my day. And I can attest to the fact that the Hermitage if a fabulous hotel. A "must stay" in Nashville.

As for Steyn...hehe...all's fair...

[matt]

OT, but how do 300 cases of swine flu equate to a pandemic? It seems to be a mild form of flu, and yet Mexico is under partial lockdown and the world's media are acting as if it's the new plague. Thoughts?

[verner]

Clarice, right after reading the Austen Riggs stuff, I ran a google blog search as well.

Nada.

So if someone is trying to start a net rumor, and blame JOM, they can forget it. Until they're ready to supply a source.

Really sad how plausible it all is though.

[bad]

I'm too befuddled by the porcine virus to have any thoughts, matt. Just hunkered down with the shotgun, guarding the domicile against intruders. Joe Biden inspired me.

I hope the kids don't order pizza... that could get awkward.

[clarice]

The things I learn here every day--from wiki on the Madonna Inn so beloved by Cathy:
"[edit] In popular culture
The Inn is featured in Umberto Eco's book Travels in Hyperreality (1991). According to Eco, "the poor words with which natural human speech is provided, cannot suffice to describe the Madonna Inn...Let's say that Albert Speer, while leafing through a book on Gaudi, swallowed an overgenerous dose of LSD and began to build a nuptial catacomb for Liza Minnelli."

It is also featured in the film Aria (1987), in a segment titled "Rigoletto" from director Julien Temple. It starred Buck Henry, Beverly D'Angelo, Anita Morris, and an Elvis Impersonator with music from Giuseppe Verdi's Rigoletto.

In a 1994 episode of "The Simpsons" entitled "Grampa vs. Sexual Inadequacy," Homer and Marge visit the "Aphrodite Inn," a parody of the Madonna Inn, in a doomed attempt to rekindle their romance. Homer notes that "the Pharaoh's Chamber has a vibrating sarcophagus" and Mayor Quimby is seen rushing into the lobby to announce that "the toilet is overflowing in the Caveman Room." The couple has to sleep on cots in a "Utility Room" containing mops and a wet/dry vacuum.

In 2007, the rock and roll band The Swirling Eddies recorded a song named after the Inn for their CD, The midget, the speck and the molecule. The song includes references to "The Caveman Room," printed sheets of Zebra Skin, rocks on the wall and a "urinal that looks just like a waterfall."

I think this is where we should launch PUK's 19th annual farewell tour.

**********
Uncle Jefe --you're a man after my own heart.

[peter]

Is Joe Biden going to stay out of Home Depot (where he told us he likes to hang out during the debate with America's sweetheart) this week to avoid getting the flu from all those Mexican day laborers?

[peter]

I am sure, that the great blogger host of this wonderful blog will start a thread about this, but I have to jump the gun (LUN) the NY Slimes has an article in which Zero claims he would have paid out of pocket for his grandmother's hip replacement as she lay dying.. This is the same guy who has a brother living in a ten square foot hut.. Pravda didn't carry Stalin's water as well as the Slimes does for Zero.

[verner]

Right Clarice, Uncle Jefe has it going on.

Anyone who would equate Churchill/FDR with Hitler IS an idiot.

Just as anyone who would equate the USA with the USSR during the Cold War is an idiot.

And I think we'll notice that members of these two groups have a 99.9% correlation internationally with those who think EI is torture and the USA is a rogue state.

[Jane]

how do 300 cases of swine flu equate to a pandemic? It seems to be a mild form of flu, and yet Mexico is under partial lockdown and the world's media are acting as if it's the new plague. Thoughts?

When it doesn't materialize it allows The WOn to say he saved the world with prompt action (using the plan President Bush developed BTW)

[Jack is Back!]

Clarice,

That reminds me of a guy I knew who always excused himself by saying he had a "cake to decorate, a urinal cake"!

[centralcal]

Wow. I haven't thought of the Madonna Inn in years. It is quite a place and the men's room is a real attraction - women always wanting a peak inside.

[Bruce]

I remember Max Hastings in his book Overlord noting that there were very few german fighter planes over D-Day.

It was one of the consequences of the British/American bombing campaigns that many German planes and pilots had been destroyed/killed trying to intercept bombers.

And of course the number of planes not built because of factories bombed and railways bombed is hard to estimate.

[pagar]

and the world's media are acting as if it's the new plague.

IMO, an excellent case could be made that the world's media are the new plague.

[Ignatz]

-It was one of the consequences of the British/American bombing campaigns that many German planes and pilots had been destroyed/killed trying to intercept bombers.-

The Brits bombed at night and consequently had relatively few run ins with German fighters. The Germans did have some night fighters but few were shot down and they weren't very effective themselves.

-And of course the number of planes not built because of factories bombed and railways bombed is hard to estimate.-

Because the Brits bombed at night they had little idea what they were bombing, other than dropping bombs in the general vicinity of metropolitan areas. If they hit a factory or railhead it was generally by chance.

[verner]

Bruce, the argument for Dresden is a little different though. It happened very late in the war (Feb 1945). Also, from what I've read, Dresden had very little strategic or military value. It was simply one of the last German cities left standing. I think there are very valid arguments that they went one too far.

On the other hand, the German people were ready to fight to the last man, and my dad on the Saar-Moselle triangle on the day Dresden was bombed. (He ended up winning his purple heart on Feb 19th) I have two thoughts there. 1) Would it have been better to use the bombers to soften up the 9th Panzer, who were cutting our people to shreds along the Siegfried Line? 2) Was it better to utterly destroy the will of the German people, and make the job easier for our soldiers to take the country?

All I know is, I'm glad I was not Churchill, and didn't have to make the call.

[centralcal]

Looks like Zero is losing acolytes in yet another poll . . . the tv viewers

Down 29% Since March Press Conference

[centralcal]

Fox News has canceled The Beltway Boys. I sure hope they come up with something good as a replacement and NOT something new for Alan Colmes.

[Uncle Jefe]

Clarice...ah, a reference to the Madonna Inn...I visited there on a recruiting trip to Cal Poly, where I ended up playing football for the Mighty Mustangs.
Darlin', I'm a hippie-hatin', America lovin' man, and I'm damn proud of my red neck.
I earned it by working, not by getting it as a label for my beliefs.
(But sometimes it seems the two cross paths...)
Above all, I passionately hate historical revisionists, moral equivalists, and all other assorted America haters.
They will never understand the sacrifices of our forebears, nor those who are protecting all of our freedoms today.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

OT, but how do 300 cases of swine flu equate to a pandemic

Matt, "pandemic" doesn't mean anything more than "widespread". In this case, the WHO level five means "known secondary cases in two or more countries".

[daddy]

Well the nice thing is that even if Swine Flu does terrorize America, Joe Biden, just as he told us on the campaign trail, will still be able to walk down and have lunch with all his buddies and waitresses at the very crowded Katie's">http://www.iris.org.il/blog/archives/2892-Bidens-Hangout-Closed-15-Years-Ago.html">Katie's Restaurant, where Biden told us he still spends a lot of his time...Because it's been closed for 15 years!

But now that I think about, maybe Biden's not lying. Maybe instead he is simply like that Jack">http://www.imdb.com/media/rm3631716352/tt0081505">Jack Nicholson character from "The Shining," who imaginarily hangs out in closed Restaurants with folks that have been dead for years...only Biden's nuttier.

He-----re's Joey!

[larwyn]

See that you're all over here now, so enjoy Oleg's

http://www.thepeoplescube.com/red/viewtopic.php?t=3357

Air Force One Attacks Wall Street, Takes Hostages
By Red Square
4/30/2009, 3:57 pm

TRUTH THRU HILARITY!!!

Be sure to check out the CREATIVE comments

P.S. Lou Dobbs is really give the WTO et al hell!!
On now with Gupta

[daddy]

And while we're talking about toilets...

My favorite is in Vasco's">http://www.hangoverguide.com/out/barfinder/start.html?display=seite&id=1795848010">Vasco's Waterfront Bar in Subic Bay Philippines. When I and the usual suspects all started hanging out there on layovers years back, the savvy Australian Salvage Diver who runs the place had a special sign hand made and installed in the toilet. It reads:

"What's the difference between Cowboy Boots and Pilot Boots?"

"On Cowboy Boots, the Bulls--t is on the outside!"

[Ann]

Look at what the slime balls at ABC are up to:
The CIA's $1000 A Day Specialists On Waterboarding, Interogations

Disgusting. They have posted pictures of the two men on their blog. (I guess they don't care about protecting their identities as much as Plame)

And they also repeat this carp:
"Abu Zubaydah was water boarded at least 83 times and Khalid Sheikh Mohamed at least 183 times.

h/t Mark Levin

[matt]

I agree, Charlie, but the implication that this is a terrible, virulent new form that has spread like wildfire when in fact it seems they know pretty much everyone from Patient 1 to Patient 350, and all over the world at that. When looked at objectively, it would seem that while yes, it is a new form, the response far outweighs the danger.

What amazes me is the ability so far to track the strain. If nothing else, it has been a good exercise of the global response mechanism. But as a plague, it isn't even close yet. The hysteria is way out of order, it would seem.

[clarice]

Larwyn--that's very funny.

[Sue]

Holy mother. ABC has outed the CIA's interrogation specialists. Pictures and all. OMG. OMG. I am speechless.

[peter]

I hope like hell those psychologists sue ABC news,

[bad]

I found this at the end of the article:

[[Matthew Cole is a freelance national security reporter. His book, about the CIA rendition program, will be published later this year by Simon & Schuster.]]

Someone's got a bool to sell.

[Pofarmer]

Ya know, after reading the blog posts, and none of the comments yet, one has to wonder-Just how low are these people's IQ's?

[Sue]

I just said goodbye to Tapper at his blog. I have begun my official boycott of ABC.

[verner]

And how many will be screaming for somebody to go to jail over this.

Hypocrite thy name is moonbat.

[Sue]

O'Reilly just said he didn't believe Obama understood evil (in reference to his pre-9/11 mindset). I totally disagree. Obama is evil. These men have now got a target on their backs along with their families. I'm sure he worried about that when he had their names leaked.

[verner]

Barry won't prosecute, but he's going to make sure that his Soros hirelings, and the willing press destroy everyone involved.

He is filthier than dirt.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

When looked at objectively, it would seem that while yes, it is a new form, the response far outweighs the danger.

Hey, you're preaching to the choir here,

[Sue]

And how many will be screaming for somebody to go to jail over this.

You can begin the count with me. #1. Somebody goes to jail over this. They won't though. No one will even investigate it. Obama did it. And nothing anyone ever says will convince me otherwise.

[Pofarmer]

-And of course the number of planes not built because of factories bombed and railways bombed is hard to estimate.-

Because the Brits bombed at night they had little idea what they were bombing, other than dropping bombs in the general vicinity of metropolitan areas. If they hit a factory or railhead it was generally by chance.

I believe the number was that they hoped to get 10% of the bombs within TWO MILES of the target. I don't remember the exact number, but the Allies sent something like 100 planes against a power station. Out of all the loads dropped, exactly TWO bombs hit the station, and didn't interrupt operations at all.

Very different times.

[verner]

Nobody worth his salt will ever want to work in intelligence gathering ever again.

They yelled and screamed over Plame, but they OUT REAL covert operatives.

We are so screwed.

[Pofarmer]

We are so screwed.

I think someone has been saying that.

[Ranger]

I really don't think the Obama crew have any idea how dirty the CIA can fight. They just opened stirred up a hornets nest they will wish for the next three years thay had stayed clear of.

[Sue]

Ranger,

One can hope.

[Bruce]

Wikipeida points out the other resources used to stop bombers:

"To man these weapons the flak regiments in Germany required some 90,000 fit personnel, and a further 1 million were deployed in clearing up and repairing the vast bomb damage caused by the RAF attacks. To put this into perspective General Erwin Rommel's German forces defending Normandy in 1944 comprised 50,000, and their resistance caused the Western Allies grave problems.

This diversion to defensive purposes of German arms and manpower was an enormous contribution made by RAF Bomber Command to winning the war. By 1944 the bombing offensive was costing Germany 30% of all artillery production, 20% of heavy shells, 33% of the output of the optical industry for sights and aiming devices and 50% of the country's electro-technical output which had to be diverted to the anti-aircraft role."

Bomber Command also did the dam busting, the Mosquito raids and daylight raids started again from August 1944.

[Ignatz]

-Also, from what I've read, Dresden had very little strategic or military value.-

Seems that is a bit of conventional wisdom, nursed and encouraged by the Germans (and idiots like Vonnegut of course).
Dresden was actually a fairly heavily industrialized town and more importantly was an important intersection of several rail lines.
I believe it was bombed at the request of the Russians who were advancing on it.
The main problem with Dresden was the use of incindiaries, just as it was in Tokyo.
I realize it was total war, but I am still rather uncomfortable with the intentional targeting of entire civilian populations and I say that as the son of a man who spent all four years of the war loading bombs onto B 17s.

[Sue]

I am listening to O'Reilly, which is obviously prerecorded and he doesn't know about the outing yet, because he keeps saying Obama is smart, he won't do this, he won't do that. He did it O'Reilly.

[pagar]

Nobody worth his salt will ever want to work in intelligence gathering ever again.

I believe that is the entire reasoning behind this torture mess, they simply do not want the US to have any means of defending our selves.

[verner]

The main problem with Dresden was the use of incindiaries, just as it was in Tokyo.

Exactly Ignatz. Why firebomb the entire city just to get rail/communication lines--and so late into the war at that? Hitler died on April 30 (TODAY!) We're talking 8-9 weeks before the war's end.

No, they wanted to level the city. And I've read that it was done more to send a message to Stalin, than something he requested.

In any case, At that point, I don't think anyone in power much cared about humanitarian concerns. After all the horror caused by the Nazis and Japanese, mercy wasn't in the equation, ending the war was. And the German population was certainly not blameless.

[Ranger]

I believe that is the entire reasoning behind this torture mess, they simply do not want the US to have any means of defending our selves.

Posted by: pagar | April 30, 2009 at 08:33 PM

That may be their goal, the CIA is an institution that will fight like hell to survive. They went after GWB simply because he stopped listening to him after the WMD "Slamdunk" fiasco (and that was despite the fact that he protected them after 9/11, rather than using that crisis to really reform the CIA). This is so much more than that.

[verner]

"That may be their goal, the CIA is an institution that will fight like hell to survive."

Let the games begin!

[lurking]

I think you are right about the CIA, Ranger. Obama won't know what hit him.

They are out of executive control. I don't like that, but I like Obama even less.

[clarice]

I have a feeling most of the CIA people who cared have left already.

[RichatUF]

Sue-

Who says they are covert? Obama could have declassified the names, then had one of his staffers leak the names and pictures-the President is the decider here. And the more details leak the harder it will be to keep the whole thing under wraps and Soros etal will get to have their show trials somewhere. It also focuses the mind-how many CIA officers will go "off the record" when they know that Obama will burn them, the Dem Congress won't take up the issue, and the media will cover for the administration?

If I were Netanyahu or Uribe (or any US ally), I'd be doubling my guards.

Ranger-

Doubtful. When Bush was President the CIA had 2 advantages: 1: a working Dem minority, then majority, who wanted to make intelligence and national security highly politicized and 2: a President who would come to them to smooth over ruffled feathers. The Dems don't need the CIA anymore-they won. And President Obama will crush any and all CIA operatives who stray from his party line.

[Ignatz]

Here's a pretty decent article on Dresden at wiki.

Seems pretty unbiased.

[Ann]

Sue,

Did you watch the videos (links in the article) of the reporters asshats trying to interview both men? It really is sick.

[Sue]

Ann,

No. And I refuse to go back and give them the traffic.

[clarice]

"Air Chief Marshal Arthur Harris wrote to the Air Ministry:[108]

I ... assume that the view under consideration is something like this: no doubt in the past we were justified in attacking German cities. But to do so was always repugnant and now that the Germans are beaten anyway we can properly abstain from proceeding with these attacks. This is a doctrine to which I could never subscribe. Attacks on cities like any other act of war are intolerable unless they are strategically justified. But they are strategically justified in so far as they tend to shorten the war and preserve the lives of Allied soldiers. To my mind we have absolutely no right to give them up unless it is certain that they will not have this effect. I do not personally regard the whole of the remaining cities of Germany as worth the bones of one British Grenadier. The feeling, such as there is, over Dresden, could be easily explained by any psychiatrist. It is connected with German bands and Dresden shepherdesses. Actually Dresden was a mass of munitions works, an intact government centre, and a key transportation point to the East. It is now none of these things.[109]"

From Wiki

[centralcal]

Sue: We have been these past 100 days and we will be in the days that follow, outraged.

The Left never did anything well, but "outrage" for outrage's sake.

We have to find a way to fight smarter. For too long we have been on the defensive - especially with our elected wusses. It is really time for all of us to go on the offensive. Start small and build.

I sympathize that boycotting ABC is very tempting. But, millions have done that already (to them and their peers) and they still glide along with those who remain.

Don't boycott. Stay and fight (comment). Correct everything you can - you have a clear and resonant voice. Express your outrage! They may not listen. They may ignore. But, I am more and more confident that your voice of outrage resonates with many people.

[Ann]

Sue,

I don't blame you. I heard about it on the Mark Levin show on the radio. He was really on a roll and remarked that he would not link to it on his website for the same reason.

However, I agree with cc. Your comments at Tapper make a difference don't stop. In fact, we should all go over to abc and give them a good round of JOM kickass! :)