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April 26, 2009



tm, how dare you allow facts to gum up a juicy narrative.


I hate to do this, cite a movie or novel when we're discussing real life, but one of the problems of Ali Soufan's position--"he provided us with important actionable intelligence"--is illustrated in John le Carre's masterpiece Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy. Jim Prideaux uses what I believe is a standard anti-interrogation technique when he's interrogated by the Russians: he starts by giving them the least useful information and then gradually, under physical pressure, gives up increasingly valuable information, knowing that they'll be able to get what they're after--if they know that there's still something to go after. Prideaux's hope is to convince them that he has no more to give up before they get to the crown jewel. That was his strategy, cat and mouse. It failed, of course, because they already knew what he had and what they were after.

Who is to say that terrorists have not been trained in such elementary anti-interrogation techniques as well? Give up actionable intelligence to fool soft headed American law enforcement types and buy time for the terrorist networks to change their ops and communication methods. Not likely to work too well if they ship you off to Egypt or a few other select locations for interrogation, where the security services know the value of time and are liable to get impatient with delaying tactics.


Remind me, please, my antique brain cannot keep up with your weekend brain rush--why does it matter that the techniques were introduced in spring--April of 2002--and not August.

Thank you,
A thick witted member of your adoring public.


So, did he write it or not, if he didn't and it was submitted under his own name, then it's the second time there's been misattribution, the first the Palin op ed
supposedly written by Clyne. If not it's a CWA, are there any actual facts anymore.


I think he's trying to cast doubt on the reliability of his memory in general. Tactics.


his = Ali Soufan

memory, or inclination to be truthful.


All this window dressing merely distracts from the picture window's view.

Has the legal definition of torture been met?

War crime !


liable to get impatient with delaying tactics.

and to be unconcerned about building a personal rapport with the subject of the interrogation.


Cleo, I haven't been following your comments. How do you feel about renditioning to places like Egypt, a very regular Clinton era practice--remember the Algore anecdote that's been posted here probably several times (as recounted by Richard Clarke)?


I mean, war crime, prosecution all up and down the chain of authority, etc.?


Cleo, I haven't been following your comments.

Does anybody?


Judging from the length of the threads I've been absent from...


Shorter TM: "There are three of them and Alleline Ali Soufan."


"war crime, prosecution all up and down the chain of authority,"

There is some viable cover for those who were
'Chust following orders' but none for those who write legal contortions and enact National Policy based upon authority, as, I feel there is greater accountability for such.

Those who went beyond the guidelines have no such protection.


As to previous admins; I will say I have a bipartisan approach to any who abuse the power of their appointed or elected post.

Nail all the bastards


Leo, the procedures were circumscribed to a fare-thee-well. They produced actionable intelligence and they saved lives. Who could ask for anything more?

And it's no more than is going to be asked after the next domestic terrorist incident. It's amazing to me that Obama could put the gun in his own mouth to this extent. And now it only takes a two-bit terrorist to pull the trigger. Opening this Pandora's Box was and is a disastrous mistake, and please bear in mind, it was to pander to the likes of you. Like that, hunh?


Yeah, nail all the bastards; Pelosi, Gore, Rockefeller ad infinitum. Did I say 'disastrous mistake'? Oh, this is going to haunt Obama, and just to mollify a fringe of the most precious. What a waste.


All right--I'll answer my own question. From the Tradition thread:
[quote]Yesterday I noted a factually challenged op-ed in the NY Times. Ali Soufan, a former FBI agent, was involved in the interrogation of Zubaydah, the first terrorist to be waterboarded. Mr. Soufan, writing in the NY Times, claimed that "traditional" interrogation techniques were working well with Zubaydah and producing good intelligence until June but the CIA switched to a heavier hand anyway.

However, the Department of Justice Inspector General report on torture devoted a chapter to the Zubaydah interrogation. Per that report (p. 100-111 of 438), the CIA adopted harsh tactics "within days", tactics so harsh (yet redacted) that one of the two FBI agents on the scne described that as "borderline torture" and both agents were recalled by June rather than be associated with the interrogation.

If the CIA was already using enhanced techniques byApril, Ali-Soufan's claim that these techniques were unnecessary because they were getting valuable info from the prisoner without resort to those techniques is bullshit.


This was a lose, lose proposition for Obama. Now, was it his decision or someone else's? Who's going under the bus to get tangled up in the axle rods next?


Whatever you have to tell yourself.


It might take ten, twenty, or thirty years, but one day, when these men are old and forgotten, they are going to be dragged from their beds to and made to pay for their crimes.

There isn't a god damn thing you can do about it.

Rick Ballard


I don't provide links to leftist scumsites but I believe that the current deflection is in part due to reservations raised concerning the death sentences being imposed upon alleged muslim suspects and their family, friends and acquaintances in Pakistan upon the orders of President Obama. There are numbers floating around which state that he is responsible for the deaths of over 600 innocent civilians (plus 14 actual suspected extremists) since inauguration.

I believe that the numbers quoted have the same approximate validity as the numbers generated by the esteemed British medical journal, the Lancet in its unprecedented study of civilian casualties in Iraq. I am sure that President Obama will be forthcoming in providing the authority by which he is guided in ordering the execution of young muslims suspected of strict adherence to an interpretation of their faith which requires them to strenuously oppose Pakistani authorities as a matter of conscience.


angulimaia, surely you are talking about the beheaders and the child roasters, right?


"ordering the execution of young muslims suspected of strict adherence to an interpretation of their faith which requires them to strenuously oppose Pakistani authorities as a matter of conscienc"

Empathy is the beginning of knowledge.

Your Conservative Creds may be in jeopardy.


Heh, and irony is the epitome of humour. You are not at your best today, Leo.


I think its because you have such a sad thesis to defend. Remember, safe, legal, and rare. And Obama screwed up big time bringing this into public discourse. Why didn't he see the extent to which it was a no win proposition for him? Is he such an airhead that he didn't think the need for it would arise?


clarice, doesn't work--you need to use

also, there's a differnce between "good" intelligence and, like, REALLY good--which is time sensitive. If the bad guys know you've grabbed their pal, you've lost the race, so even a few hours of patty cake may blow the REALLY good stuff. Think about it, being told, gosh, I was planning to blow up all of LA next month is good intelligence, but "bin Laden is at this spot right now cause I just got done talking to him" is what you really want. What you really want is to be inside their network, not chasing down leads that are "actionable." All these characterizations of intel can be really misleading anyway unless you're inside the loop.

Very good, Elliott. The book and the video are both outstanding in their own ways. Even though the video changed the ending from the book I really liked it: "Forasmuch as God hath shewed thee all this, there is none so discreet and wise as thou art," as Prideaux sits there. Very powerful to me.

Heh. I'm currently rewatching the Yes, Minister and Yes, Prime Minister series. Soooo outstanding!


The waterboarded terrorist is still alive which is more than can be said of all of those victims of safe, legal and rare techniques.


If we believe Clarke, Clinton might have stopped the renditioning but for Algore's "go grab his ass!" Heavy responsibility, since it sets the precedent for Bushco to follow, too. So, the Nobelist Algore is the first in the dock and gets the really severe punishment. Lets roll!


i guess i goofed. clarice, the "blockquote" tag is what you want--"quote" doesn't work.


What do I need to use, anduril?


I know--and the [] doesn't work--but when I'm afraid I may forget to close a tag-I use the old way so the reader can see what I meant without my running the risk of ruining the thread.


It's not surprising how quickly lefties forgot about the people jumping out of the windows of the burning WTC, since it was they who were so effective censoring that video after about 9/12/2001.


cleans things up nicely


i'm such a klutz. you wrote "quote". you need "blockquote" but you have to use the <> brackets.


"Has the legal definition of torture been met?"

Since enhanced interrogations were adequately supported by legal opinions the answer is no, but thanks for asking.

The Las Vegas Review Journal has an excellent editorial on how ridiculous it is to try to charge the lawyers who were asked to issue legal opinions.



nice catch, ben.

personally, i think abortion techniques (crushing skulls, burning with saline solution, dismembering, etc.) qualify as torture under anyone's guidelines and i'm for going after supreme court justices who wrote opinions justifying it.


no lurking, I am talking about members of the Bush admin who will be held to account.

Like I said, there isn't a god damn thing any of you can do about it, but keep raging against the inevitable as long as it makes you happy.


"And i'm for going after supreme court justices who wrote opinions justifying it"

Absolutely, and the bleeding hearts can start prosecuting judges who sentence criminals to death. Juries too. Everyone can start deciding what's criminal and what's not, and any trial lawyers left that aren't charged with something will make a killing.


"Like I said, there isn't a god damn thing any of you can do about it,"

And pray tell why is that? There is plenty to be done and the backlash against this sordid attempt to criminalize policy has already begun. A lot has already been uncovered about how hypocritical this is and how the Dem leadership was plainly aware of the policy. More will be uncovered and watch for more Democrats to back away from this "quagmire".


Cheney may die of natural causes beforehand.

Gozo, Yoo, Addington, etc. still have long lives ahead of them. I hope they are prepared to spend the rest of their days looking over their shoulder - they are going to have to.

Like I said, we are prepared to wait a long time until these fools are no longer useful to the GOP and have no one in power left to defend them. Then we will drag them from their beds, put them before a court, and punish them as they deserve.

I dont care if they are old sick men who just want to see their grandkids graduate before they die in peace. They won't get the luxury. That is my gratitude to them for trying to "keep me safe". A middle finger and best wishes for them in hell.

We will never slack in our support to see them punished. You will slack in your defense of them. God has already ordained our inevitable victory in this.


I especially liked the part where the FBI wiped Aub Zubaydah's butt.

Ali Soufan was the very best because he could quote the Qoran and speak Arab...hmm. I see a Hollywood deal in the making. Do you suppose they'll include the part where the FBI/CIA were an abysmal failure after the Cole Bombing, resulting in 3000 people getting killed on 911.

On the other hand, the Bush administration, with all the mean ole treatment of A-Q, has been able to prevent a single attack on America since.

Go figure.

Also, Isikoff is at his nauseating worst on this one. Almost as bad as the Qoran flushing stuff.


God has already ordained our inevitable victory in this.

Tea leaves?


"Gozo, Yoo, Addington, etc. still have long lives ahead of them. I hope they are prepared to spend the rest of their days looking over their shoulder - they are going to have to."

Why, are you going to assassinate them?

Pathetic a-wipe.




I said this is a long term thing.

The current Dem leadership may be hypocrites. Maybe they will balk. We just just bring it up again and again and again and again .....

One day these fools will be useless old farts with no one left to defend them. The Al Queda threat will be gone and your ilk will be raging against the imagined liberal conspiracy du jour and have little passion to defend these has-beens.



You are aware what the words "before a court" means, aren't you?

Or is literuhsee not ur stong pointe?


"God has already ordained our inevitable victory in this."

Oh, and talks to god too....whoooo. Heavy.


The Al Queda threat will be gone...

Does O have enough drones to assassinate all of them?


This will not be solved via an internet debate today.

We will see how this plays out. If you think we will drop this is 10 or 20 years think you do not know us as well as you think.

Anyways, I've said more than my peace. Have fun.


Oh F-off. You pathetic cretin. Don't you see, Obama is playing you like the tool you are. "Before a Court" Dream on.


angulimaia, woohoo, you are pretty amusing.



You like that word.... a lot.

Try a Thesaurus

Patrick R. Sullivan

Man, Isikoff is a really crappy reporter. The time line matters, crucially, to Soufan's story in the case of Iyman Faris.

Faris was a naturalized American citizen living in Ohio and working as an independent truck driver. Which gave him access to places like airports and other delivery points all across the country. He even seems to have been capable of piloting small planes.

KSM was captured on March 1, 2003, and he gave up Faris. The FBI first visited him at his home on March 23rd. So, inquiring minds--which apparently doesn't include Isikoff--want to know, who got KSM to give him up, the kinder, gentler FBI, or the tough guys from CIA? All Isikoff had to do was ask.

Faris is currently in a federal prison serving a 20 year term for aiding Al Qaeda within the USA. Including the plot to bring down the Brooklyn Bridge.


*Did I hear someone singing Pirate Jennie's song of revenge?

"Und das Schiff mit acht Segeln
Und mit fünfzig Kanonen
Wird entschwinden mit mir. "

PUK, hold my scrub brush while I slip into my pirate costume for the final chorus...****

angulimala--you'll get your fantasy revenge for fantasy wrongs when Jenny sails into Boston harbor with a necklace of shark's teeth..


The Obama Administration is going to end in disaster and in tears. It's disheartening to see New Left Progressives and their Islamist allies winning the war, but here we are.


What happened in the French revolution? After King Louie and the queen had been beheaded did the revolution stop, or did the revolution next look for the idiotarians like the angulimalas and their ilk?

Just saying, because these morons wont have a weapon nor a magazine clip to defend themselves.


"You are not at your best today, Leo."

On the contrary,Septic is on top form.It doesn't get any better than this.


Yeah Clarice, something about the language, but I did detect a little Das Lied der Deutschen in there... TM is getting international trolls! He has truly arrived.


Oh, they're safe alright, Gmax; you won't be able to get past the Cheetos Barricades.


The Obama Administration is going to end in disaster and in tears.

Rich, let's just work hard to make sure that they're his disaster and tears, not ours.

From the polls I've seen, there are encouraging signs.


"We will never slack in our support to see them punished. You will slack in your defense of them. God has already ordained our inevitable victory in this."

A certain floweriness in the language that has a Middle Eastern flavour to it.Junior al Qaeda?

Rick Ballard

Messieur Danton? There are some gentlemen from the new Committee of Public Safety who wish a moment of your time...


They have a bunch of JAQs where you stay, huh PUK. I think you're right, prob ME, and of course he didn't use Allah for obvious reasons! LOL.


Well angulimala didn't sound like any Buddhist.I'm not an expert but do Buddhists use the "ordained by God" line?


Well, one thing is for certain, angulimala is not a Thai Buddhist. Those chaps have had their own troubles with AQ, and I'm quite sure are very grateful we made KSM talk.

I think the moniker to a Buddhist god was just a lame attempt to throw us off. Don't you?


Just catching up. I see that we are getting more interesting and entertaining trolls - Arugula or whatever!

The other one, the loser one who keeps coming here and p*ssing on the carpet, he needs to find a caring home.

Rick Ballard

"do Buddhists use the "ordained by God" line?"

No, inshallah.


Clarice,I do wish you would stop posing


I said this is a long term thing.

Well good. I'm confident BO will be sitting on his hands in a cold cell for murdering Somali teenagers long before. And when that life sentence is done he can serve another for murdering Pakistani children. Certainly the Messiah has a third life to serve for all the children he ordered killed directly after birth.

Be careful what you wish for angulimala.

But thanks for playing.


Whose job is it to post the moron alert today? You are obviously slipping.


Heh, PUK. That's our Clarice alrighty! Coming to clear the pantywaists off the thread.


You know, the more I read about this, the more it seems like:

1)Soufan want's to make himself look really good, and so does Issie (big surprise there)

2) The usual suspects are going to take whatever he says at face value, because he's telling them what they want to hear.

3) No one who is actually in a position of authority is backing up his story that they were getting enough intel from wiping a_z's bottom.

4)Thanks to "the wall of separation", and the fact that our Humit stank thanks to the shackles of the Church Committee, we didn't know jack about AQ before 911, and time was of the essence.

5) The FBI does not appear to be anywhere near as successful as the CIA in gaining vital intel. So he gave up KSM's name. What else was he holding back though?

I can see it now. Scene three--poor little A-Z, moaning in pain and eyes wide with fear, chained to the cot, while Soufan feeds him ice chips...

Who on earth is going to fall for this?

Trust me, Ali Soufan is going to be on MTV next week.



I hope your right but this whole blow up with the memos has the feel of Obama's Reichstag Fire. Aside from the gratuitous assault on executive power and on the federal bureaucracy and the disastrous national security consequences, he has created a firestorm of distraction to move his radical, destructive domestic agenda forward.

He's already bullying the Congress into both nationalized health care and cap-and-trade using the reconcilation process to shut down debate and work around the filibuster. We haven't stopped them yet-they passed the ridiculious expansion of SCHIP with no debate and the Stimulus bill with no debate. The Congress has already passed the outlines of the 2010 budget without debate.


"I said this is a long term thing."

A very interesting statement,can only be by someone young enough to have a long term with the confidence of youth. Adults know that long term is a hope not a prediction. Nothing can be predicated with certainty.
angulimala could succomb to pig flu tomorrow.


"Who on earth is going to fall for this?"

Uh . . . it starts with an S and ends with an o, and it likes pee here often.


I love the "rough and unorthodox techniques" such as stripping him nude, turning down temp and loud music!! I feel as if I am living in Alice In Wonderland.


Rich, I agree with you. But unfortunately for Obama, lot's of people can chew gum and walk at the same time.

And from my little circle, i can only say that most folks have been hearing this garbage for 4 years now, are sick of it, and have made up their minds. They ARE watching what he's doing with the family piggy bank, and are not happy.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/5220532/Taliban-gunmen-shooting-couple-dead-for-adultery-caught-on-camera.html>Compare to panties on head


Clarice,Very nasty.Obama the Abortionist would make a very good Taleban.


Quite a contrast, huh, Clarice? But, for our Obama-maniacs, that always happens to "other" people.

Maybe the left thinks waterboarding (and lesser things) is torture, because they wouldn't be able to tolerate even the most gentle of interrogations.


Looks like the cub scouts and brownies will be reined in soon.

Feinstein Calls for Calm so Congress Can Investigate Interrogation Memos

We will never slack in our support to see them punished. You will slack in your defense of them. God has already ordained our inevitable victory in this.
Gee, when you and your allies make claims of "inevitable victory", isn't the usual form of that statement, "Allah has already ordained our inevitable victory in this"?

no lurking, I am talking about members of the Bush admin who will be held to account.

We will all be held to account by a higher power at some point at the end of our days.

Will you be ready--angulimala?


Nice pistola, Clarice.


Of course, Feinstein will set the tone for the hearings by reviewing in graphic detail what Saddam and Sons did in Iraq prior to Americans doing what the UN long ago should have done.



I hope your right, but I'm not so sure. We never really fully recovered from the disastrous Carter Administration and we still have a lot of overhang from the Roosevelt Administration.

He's going to cramdown a 3.6 trillion dollar budget and probably have a 2.0 Trillion dollar deficit. Taxes are going to go up, interest rates have to go up, and health care and energy policy are going to get worse not better (both more expensive and less access). All while he is wrecking the US economy, he is going to give terrorist groups and dictators space, and in his weakness, enthusiastic encouragement, to prepare and launch terrorist attacks against Americans and American interests.

And his administration and his media bootlickers are having an existential crisis (and want to put the country through the same) because we waterboarded 3 terrorists. Very curious that these same people didn't have any problem with Terry Schivo starving to death.


Feinstein is trying to deflect her own pay for play scandal.


We never really fully recovered from the disastrous Carter Administration and we still have a lot of overhang from the Roosevelt Administration.

And let us not forget LBJ's Great Society.

Uncle BigBad


To format a block quote easily (I assume you use firefox):

On the top menu, select view, then toolbars. Make sure "Text Formatting Toolbar" is checked. (It will then be displayed along with the other toolbars at the top.)

Then highlight the text you want to be a block quote, go to the "Text Formatting Toolbar" and find the icon for block quote, and click. (It's the only round icon in the toolbar--mouse-over icons to confirm their identity.)

Then hit preview, and voila, quote is formatted.



My list wasn't meant to be exhaustive, but that should have been on it.


"Allah has already ordained our inevitable victory in this"?

That's exactly the excuse A-Z gave for spilling his guts.


Sorry, Uncle--no can do.


You know it's amusing to toy with Semantic, but this whole meme, being carried out first
by Nick, than Steve MG (who I was beginning
to forget, all about)and now Leo, here, is really rubbing me the wrong way. We're all too polite to say this, but one of us, really understands the graphic meaning of what war crimes and crimes against humanity
is; I only know of it second hand, like my
neighbor who bears the number of her three year stint at Dachau, among those in my immediate circle.

This moral inversion being practiced by the left and some elements of the far right, is revolting. It brings to mind how the leading
muftis, imams, Syrian Defense Minister, even
the Arab partner in peace, Mr. Abbas, all toyed with this equivalence in the their early or adult days. They call the establishment of the state of Israel, al Nakbah, as some great tragedy equivalent to the Holocaust, because they lost. Many of these countries like Egypt and Saudi Arabia, to name just two, sheltered Nazis like the late Aribelt Heim or the Iraqi Vichy collaborator Rashid Ghailani. Syria
gave sanctuary to Alois Brunner, who until his supposed death in 1992, oversaw the Egyptian chemical rocket program, until the likes of Yitzak Shamir scared him off, and trained a generation or two of the Syrian Mukharabat, and through them the same number of terrorists.


I always enjoy your commentary and you are particularly outstanding today.

And from my little circle, i can only say that most folks have been hearing this garbage for 4 years now, are sick of it, and have made up their minds.

Ras Poll backs your observation:

Saturday, April 25, 2009

President Obama and Senate Democratic leaders are opposed to more investigations of how the Bush administration treated terrorism suspects, and 58% of U.S. voters agree with them. A number of congressional Democrats, including House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, are pushing for a wider probe.
Just 28% think the Obama administration should do further investigating of how suspected terrorists were questioned during the Bush years, according to a new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey. Thirteen percent (13%) are not sure.
While the Bush administration’s handling of terrorism suspects has been a highly charged political issue,
Democrats are evenly divided over whether further investigation is necessary. Seventy-seven percent (77%) of Republicans and 62% of voters not affiliated with either major party are against more investigating.
Fifty-eight percent (58%) of liberals believe more investigating is called for, but 78% of conservatives disagree.
(Want a free daily e-mail update? Sign up now. If it's in the news, it's in our polls.) Rasmussen Reports updates also available on Twitter.
Fifty-eight percent (58%) of all voters believe the Obama White House’s recent release of CIA memos about the harsh interrogation methods used on terrorism suspects endangers the national security of the United States.
Forty-two percent (42%) of voters say terrorism suspects were tortured by the United States, but 37% disagree. Twenty-one percent (21%) are undecided. The number who believe America tortured is unchanged from October 2007; the level of disagreement is higher.
The Senate Intelligence Committee is investigating how suspected terrorists were interrogated and is expected to report back later this year. But Pelosi and others also want to create an independent commission to investigate.


You know, this argument, really shows how specious the whole "Failed to connect the Dots" argument really was. Try to get a little info so you have dots to connect? No good. Don't connect the very vague and non-existant dots? No good.


This issue is just a smokescreen. And while we all talk about enhanced interrogations, Hillarycare will be passed in a reconciliation bill on a majority vote without debate.

What's the point of fighting this, though? At least half of voters deserve to wallow in whatever becomes of it.

All joking aside, secession is sounding better and better every day.

Rick Ballard


I was looking at YTD YoY tax receipts today. I think $2T might be low. Corporate tax receipts are off 37% and total receipts are off 10%. If rates on Treasury debt start blowing out (and they will), then we're going to have a rather weird situation going on with strong deflation coupled with steeply rising interest rates. With velocity still in 'Park', tax receipts will continue to shrink somewhat faster than employment decreases.

I wonder what 'Plan B v2.7' is going to look like.


It sure would be nice if some of you folks would remember that there are certain things one must do to even have rights under the Geveva and Hague Conventions.

Was Zubaydah in uniform? Did he try to avoid hurting civilians? No? Then the only right he had was a last cigarette and a stout wall to stand before.

People keep talking about their rights. They have none, not according to the accepted laws of warfare. Do you realized that not one Nazi was imprisoned or executed for torturing and executing any of our OSS guys? Because they were not in uniform. Remember that famous picture of the South Vietnamese guy shooting that VC in the head in Saigon? He was never prosecuted because he did something legal accoring to the laws of war.

This whole thing is ridiculous. We don't like Bush so let's change the rules. Sorry, even if the UN doesn't like it, the rules are the rules. And the rules are simple, both sides must obey the rules for them to mean anything.

So we have one side hacking off heads. And Angulimala has nothing to say to that.

JM Hanes


"It doesn't get any better than this."



Thank You so Much SW. I heart you too.

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